Agreed. I recall that VT was locked down at the beginning of the school year after an escaped con was reportedly spotted on campus. Nothing happened and the guy was quickly caught.
For the record, the 'Nothing happened' included the killing of a cop and a hospital security guard.
maybe i am wrong, and perhaps the lockdown should have occured, but either way we can't undo what has been done, and passing blame just seems like misguided emotions at this time.
Personally, I just don't see how you prevent things like this once they are in motion. You just have to pray that like the situation at the Utah mall a month or 2 back, that the cops get lucky and have an opportunity to take the guy out straight away. Unfortunately, days like today, luck runs the other way, and it's absolutely tragic.
One person with murder on their mind can destroy so much it's just unreal.
Corny as it sounds, I hope all of you guys and gals out there are safe and sound tonight, and that the good outweighs the bad in your lives. Take this moment to feel some consolation in an unsure world, and pray for the families of this senseless tragedy.
although i do disagree that this is a time to talk about gun control.
On CNN, they just showed a picture of 50cent holding a 9mm, talking about possible gun control and whatsoever. I see some goold ol' C. Dolores Tucker situation coming back soon. A sort of coalition with Sharpton, Jackson, Oprah, Cosby, etc...
It seems likely that the university is going to get reamed (in the press but probably in the courts too) for not locking down the campus earlier. As KK and others noted, the future M.O. will probably be to treat any gun violence on one part of campus as something that the entire campus needs to be warned about. And yeah, I think that, in general, that's an overreaction but from a public safety p.o.v., sure, better safe than sorry. It just seems to me that the university probably made a reasonable call in treating the first shooting as an isolated domestic incident (and it sounds like they were operating on some bad information) rather than as a warning that something even worse was going to happen.
Dan - the procedures you described for Oregon sounds like what would happen in the event of a high school shooting; is that the same procedure for something that would happen at the Univ. of Oregon for example?
BTW, at VT, the first responders went over Norris Hall once shooting was reported. THey did NOT wait for SWAT. They broke into the building (the shooter had chained the main doors from the inside), ran upstairs and that's when the shooter offed himself. At least this was the information given during the press conf earlier today.
Dan - the procedures you described for Oregon sounds like what would happen in the event of a high school shooting; is that the same procedure for something that would happen at the Univ. of Oregon for example?
Like I said, I have no idea what higher ed procedures are. My wife works at a small private school. I asked her what their procedures were. She had no idea. She said there was a safety commitee, beyond that she knows nothing.
BTW, at VT, the first responders went over Norris Hall once shooting was reported. THey did NOT wait for SWAT. They broke into the building (the shooter had chained the main doors from the inside), ran upstairs and that's when the shooter offed himself. At least this was the information given during the press conf earlier today.
I heard lots of conflicting stuff on ATC tonight. I heard the school prez say that they thought they had the first shooter in custody. He sounded like he was trying to cover his butt. I heard that first responders broke in the doors. I also heard that he was shooting for 30 minutes. The only reason I talked about it was you were saying that they could not have had procedures in place because it was so unthinkable nobody would ever expect it to happen. I have no beef with VTUs or the police response because we don't know yet what happened. Just in hindsight they should have locked down.
Part of what seemed to happen, based on what the school officials said during the press conference is that after the first shooting, they had a "person of interest" that they were seeking and actually FOUND this person, off-campus. Hence, that's why they thought the campus was safe; as far as the police were concerned, they had whoever they needed to find in custody.
Barring the possibility that there were two shooters (unlikely but I think ballistics will confirm this for certain), it sounds like the police were operating on information by the witnesses of the first shooting and thus, didn't realize the shooter was still on campus. Prelim news reports quoted officials as saying they thought the shooter was headed out of state. Clearly, somewhere, someone made the wrong call though it could have been for reasonable reasons. I'm assuming that if the police thought there was a gunman at large on campus - even if they thought the dorm shooting was domestic - they would have locked the campus down.
It just seems to me that the university probably made a reasonable call in treating the first shooting as an isolated domestic incident (and it sounds like they were operating on some bad information) rather than as a warning that something even worse was going to happen.
Unless the school had 100% confirmation that the perp of the first shooting was accounted for (ie caught or killed), then there's just no way I would cosign their decision not to lock the school down as "reasonable".
It just seems to me that the university probably made a reasonable call in treating the first shooting as an isolated domestic incident (and it sounds like they were operating on some bad information) rather than as a warning that something even worse was going to happen.
Unless the school had 100% confirmation that the perp of the first shooting was accounted for (ie caught or killed), then there's just no way I would cosign their decision not to lock the school down as "reasonable".
The thing is though: they thought they had a suspect in custody. When the second shootings popped off, the realized, "uh oh." It's not dissimilar to 9/11. When the first plane hit, few people realized there was another one on its way and that's one reason both towers weren't immediately evacuated. In hindsight, it seems to make sense that they should have done it, but was it a stupid decision at the time? Seems unfair to apply hindsight there.
I think KK's point here is valid: there's a lot of shit that happens on college campuses all the time, including shootings and murder. In the past, most of these were not reasons to shut down an entire campus, at least not one the size of VT. In the future, I'm sure the new procedure will be err on the side of extreme caution and though I think that's an unfortunate state of overreaction, I'll side with the "better safe than sorry" crowd.
The thing is though: they thought they had a suspect in custody. When the second shootings popped off, the realized, "uh oh."
Key word: they "thought" they had a suspect in custody. Until school officials got word from law enforcement authorities that they were positive on the perp, that school should've been locked the fuck down. Period. You might say it's unfair to apply hindsight, or that to err on the side of extreme caution equals an unfortunate state of overreaction, but I wouldn't want to be the one to tell that to 30+ sets of parents tonight either. Die and learn I suppose.
It's not dissimilar to 9/11. When the first plane hit, few people realized there was another one on its way and that's one reason both towers weren't immediately evacuated. In hindsight, it seems to make sense that they should have done it, but was it a stupid decision at the time?
Yes. And it's plenty fair to apply hindsight in that situation. While the aircraft attack set precedent, the attack itself didn't. John O'Neill, security director for the WTC who perished in the attack while trying to evacuate as many occupants as possible, was anticipating the day when something like that would happen. Something no one would expect. Surviving witnesses reported seeing O'Neill in both towers (before the second plane hit) and urging occupants returning to their offices to evacuate then and now.
It's not dissimilar to 9/11. When the first plane hit, few people realized there was another one on its way and that's one reason both towers weren't immediately evacuated. In hindsight, it seems to make sense that they should have done it, You might want to run that by Motown for some fact checking.
Speaking of 9/11, it's remarkable how people (mostly on the Right) are almost chomping at the bit that this might be a terrorist attack (vs. a really fucked up act of psychosis).
"Students need to know better how to protect themselves, possibly even how to fight back, and if students were allowed to carry weapons this wouldn't happen." ??? Carol
Surviving witnesses reported seeing O'Neill in both towers (before the second plane hit) and urging occupants returning to their offices to evacuate then and now.
Speaking of 9/11, it's remarkable how people (mostly on the Right) are almost chomping at the bit that this might be a terrorist attack (vs. a really fucked up act of psychosis).
"Students need to know better how to protect themselves, possibly even how to fight back, and if students were allowed to carry weapons this wouldn't happen." ??? Carol
Seriously though, wasn't it just last year some time when, during another campus shooting, one student managed to escape to his car, get his own gun, go back and blast the perp before he could kill any more?
Speaking of 9/11, it's remarkable how people (mostly on the Right) are almost chomping at the bit that this might be a terrorist attack (vs. a really fucked up act of psychosis).
March 25th entry, with the dandelion and poem says in Japanese (don't know what nationality he is) "I want to forget your face....please." Scary coincidence....no wonder people were making noise about him.
I'm guessing that campus officials after the initial shooting were too busy dealing with the aftermath, that they were not prepared to take swift action for the other students and faculty on campus. 2 hours goes by quick. I get the sense that campus officials were thinking "If there were to be more shootings, they would have occurred by now", as many probably would have thought.
As for police and other law enforcement, as Laserwolf has said, shouldn't they have been swarming the area? At the very least, shouldn't law enforcement have TOLD the campus officials to "lock doors, stay inside" and been on a campus-wide man hunt?
I just imagined myself in one of those lecture halls, scares the hell out of me.
I am glad someone brought it up a couple pages back and I agree that trying to lock everything down right away dealing with that many people, young people, may have caused a very chaotic situation.
I watched the press conference and the Pres of VT said that they waited until they did to lock down because that was the start of classes and the majority of the students that had been out on campus would have been in the buildings where they could be safe and accounted for. Whether or not this was the way the exact strategy rolled out and how that relates to the shooter coming back and shooting up the engineering building i am a little bit unclear on.
But to touch on a point way closer to the beginning of this thread, i think it was kind of a shame the way the press hammered the Police Chief and VT President at that first press conference. Just like someone said that it needs to be investigated and CNN are not the detectives, the grilling of these guys before they have everything figured out and squared away seems kind of ridiculous. Yes, let them talk to the press to get the facts straight so everyone on the same page, but reporters asking questions that seem to back these guys in a corner or prove a point about what was/is right and wrong at that point in time just seems like a bad look.
I am glad someone brought it up a couple pages back and I agree that trying to lock everything down right away dealing with that many people, young people, may have caused a very chaotic situation.
I am glad someone brought it up a couple pages back and I agree that trying to lock everything down right away dealing with that many people, young people, may have caused a very chaotic situation.
Thank God that didn't happen.
I guess i didn't make that clear enough. The last thing you want to add to what's already going on is a lack of control over that many people. All those kids scrambling around because they want to get to their cars, girlfriends, dorm rooms, etc.
As i said, if their plan was to wait to lock down once the majority of the students were in class buildings (i believe they said the first shooting happened before classes had started for the day) then i think it was a well calculated one.
Speaking of 9/11, it's remarkable how people (mostly on the Right) are almost chomping at the bit that this might be a terrorist attack (vs. a really fucked up act of psychosis).
I think in this era, terrorism is easier to process, people don't want to admit that other people are beyond reason or understanding. It's too frightening and there are no real conclusions.
i feel sorry for the guy who said that the university has blood on it's hands. probably regrets giving the media a strong but ultimately misinformed sound-bite.
there was no way anyone could of guessed that a domestic situation would lead to a full-scale massacre unless of course he was already tooled up by that point with the vest and mad amounts of ammo.
its amazing how some of the pro-gun lobbyists think that students should be packing guns to go to uni and consequently could have dealt with the situation. some fucked up logic.
its amazing how some of the pro-gun lobbyists think that students should be packing guns to go to uni and consequently could have dealt with the situation. some fucked up logic.
The same way that the gun-control people are assuming that stricter laws would have kept guns out of that nut's hands. Both scenarios are 'maybes' with no conclusive evidence to back them up, and I maintain that anyone getting on TV and promoting either side/B> on the day of or the day after is just trying to score political points off a tragedy and they have my undivided, utter contempt.
i'm just saying in terms of strapping up just to go to school. not quite the same as arguing about whether or not gun control would of stopped him. the 2 minutes actual news followed by 10 minutes on gun control on the news last night was complete bullshit to be fair though. that aint news! i heard that shit a million times already!
oh yeah they announced it was some South Korean guy named Cho Seung-hui. imagine if the guy was arab.
its amazing how some of the pro-gun lobbyists think that students should be packing guns to go to uni and consequently could have dealt with the situation. some fucked up logic.
Let me tell you something. If I was one of those poor kids in one of those four classrooms with nowhere to go, starring down the barrel of that maniac's gun, I'd at least want to have a chance.
Comments
For the record, the 'Nothing happened' included the killing of a cop and a hospital security guard.
Wish her well for us. I hope she is doing well and can be with family and get the counseling she wants.
"Nothing happened" on campus. Alright?
although i do disagree that this is a time to talk about gun control.
Again, just for the record, those killings happened between 1 and 2 miles from campus and the convict was headed towards campus. I'm just sayin.
No doubt. Either way I'm in favor of the lockdown.
Better safe than sorry.
Dan - the procedures you described for Oregon sounds like what would happen in the event of a high school shooting; is that the same procedure for something that would happen at the Univ. of Oregon for example?
BTW, at VT, the first responders went over Norris Hall once shooting was reported. THey did NOT wait for SWAT. They broke into the building (the shooter had chained the main doors from the inside), ran upstairs and that's when the shooter offed himself. At least this was the information given during the press conf earlier today.
Like I said, I have no idea what higher ed procedures are. My wife works at a small private school. I asked her what their procedures were. She had no idea. She said there was a safety commitee, beyond that she knows nothing.
I heard lots of conflicting stuff on ATC tonight. I heard the school prez say that they thought they had the first shooter in custody. He sounded like he was trying to cover his butt. I heard that first responders broke in the doors. I also heard that he was shooting for 30 minutes. The only reason I talked about it was you were saying that they could not have had procedures in place because it was so unthinkable nobody would ever expect it to happen. I have no beef with VTUs or the police response because we don't know yet what happened. Just in hindsight they should have locked down.
My thoughts now are with the survivors.
Part of what seemed to happen, based on what the school officials said during the press conference is that after the first shooting, they had a "person of interest" that they were seeking and actually FOUND this person, off-campus. Hence, that's why they thought the campus was safe; as far as the police were concerned, they had whoever they needed to find in custody.
Barring the possibility that there were two shooters (unlikely but I think ballistics will confirm this for certain), it sounds like the police were operating on information by the witnesses of the first shooting and thus, didn't realize the shooter was still on campus. Prelim news reports quoted officials as saying they thought the shooter was headed out of state. Clearly, somewhere, someone made the wrong call though it could have been for reasonable reasons. I'm assuming that if the police thought there was a gunman at large on campus - even if they thought the dorm shooting was domestic - they would have locked the campus down.
Unless the school had 100% confirmation that the perp of the first shooting was accounted for (ie caught or killed), then there's just no way I would cosign their decision not to lock the school down as "reasonable".
The thing is though: they thought they had a suspect in custody. When the second shootings popped off, the realized, "uh oh." It's not dissimilar to 9/11. When the first plane hit, few people realized there was another one on its way and that's one reason both towers weren't immediately evacuated. In hindsight, it seems to make sense that they should have done it, but was it a stupid decision at the time? Seems unfair to apply hindsight there.
I think KK's point here is valid: there's a lot of shit that happens on college campuses all the time, including shootings and murder. In the past, most of these were not reasons to shut down an entire campus, at least not one the size of VT. In the future, I'm sure the new procedure will be err on the side of extreme caution and though I think that's an unfortunate state of overreaction, I'll side with the "better safe than sorry" crowd.
Key word: they "thought" they had a suspect in custody.
Until school officials got word from law enforcement authorities that they were positive on the perp, that school should've been locked the fuck down. Period.
You might say it's unfair to apply hindsight, or that to err on the side of extreme caution equals an unfortunate state of overreaction, but I wouldn't want to be the one to tell that to 30+ sets of parents tonight either.
Die and learn I suppose.
Yes. And it's plenty fair to apply hindsight in that situation. While the aircraft attack set precedent, the attack itself didn't. John O'Neill, security director for the WTC who perished in the attack while trying to evacuate as many occupants as possible, was anticipating the day when something like that would happen.
Something no one would expect. Surviving witnesses reported seeing O'Neill in both towers (before the second plane hit) and urging occupants returning to their offices to evacuate then and now.
It's not dissimilar to 9/11. When the first plane hit, few people realized there was another one on its way and that's one reason both towers weren't immediately evacuated. In hindsight, it seems to make sense that they should have done it,
You might want to run that by Motown for some fact checking.
Wow.
Haven't heard that but check this...
peep this guy...
So much for the "model minority".
Seriously though, wasn't it just last year some time when, during another campus shooting, one student managed to escape to his car, get his own gun, go back and blast the perp before he could kill any more?
March 25th entry, with the dandelion and poem says in Japanese (don't know what nationality he is) "I want to forget your face....please." Scary coincidence....no wonder people were making noise about him.
I'm guessing that campus officials after the initial shooting were too busy dealing with the aftermath, that they were not prepared to take swift action for the other students and faculty on campus. 2 hours goes by quick. I get the sense that campus officials were thinking "If there were to be more shootings, they would have occurred by now", as many probably would have thought.
As for police and other law enforcement, as Laserwolf has said, shouldn't they have been swarming the area? At the very least, shouldn't law enforcement have TOLD the campus officials to "lock doors, stay inside" and been on a campus-wide man hunt?
I just imagined myself in one of those lecture halls, scares the hell out of me.
I watched the press conference and the Pres of VT said that they waited until they did to lock down because that was the start of classes and the majority of the students that had been out on campus would have been in the buildings where they could be safe and accounted for. Whether or not this was the way the exact strategy rolled out and how that relates to the shooter coming back and shooting up the engineering building i am a little bit unclear on.
But to touch on a point way closer to the beginning of this thread, i think it was kind of a shame the way the press hammered the Police Chief and VT President at that first press conference. Just like someone said that it needs to be investigated and CNN are not the detectives, the grilling of these guys before they have everything figured out and squared away seems kind of ridiculous. Yes, let them talk to the press to get the facts straight so everyone on the same page, but reporters asking questions that seem to back these guys in a corner or prove a point about what was/is right and wrong at that point in time just seems like a bad look.
Thank God that didn't happen.
I guess i didn't make that clear enough. The last thing you want to add to what's already going on is a lack of control over that many people. All those kids scrambling around because they want to get to their cars, girlfriends, dorm rooms, etc.
As i said, if their plan was to wait to lock down once the majority of the students were in class buildings (i believe they said the first shooting happened before classes had started for the day) then i think it was a well calculated one.
I think in this era, terrorism is easier to process, people don't want to admit that other people are beyond reason or understanding. It's too frightening and there are no real conclusions.
there was no way anyone could of guessed that a domestic situation would lead to a full-scale massacre unless of course he was already tooled up by that point with the vest and mad amounts of ammo.
its amazing how some of the pro-gun lobbyists think that students should be packing guns to go to uni and consequently could have dealt with the situation. some fucked up logic.
The same way that the gun-control people are assuming that stricter laws would have kept guns out of that nut's hands. Both scenarios are 'maybes' with no conclusive evidence to back them up, and I maintain that anyone getting on TV and promoting either side/B> on the day of or the day after is just trying to score political points off a tragedy and they have my undivided, utter contempt.
oh yeah they announced it was some South Korean guy named Cho Seung-hui. imagine if the guy was arab.
Imagine what? The guy that shot up and killed all those folks in Utah a few weeks back was Muslim and shit was barely said about it.
Let me tell you something. If I was one of those poor kids in one of those four classrooms with nowhere to go, starring down the barrel of that maniac's gun, I'd at least want to have a chance.