As KK points out, the main problem here is one where people just don't know how to deal with shit they've never dealt with before. I think people are being hella kneejerk in saying, "they should have closed down campus". That seems to make sense in hindsight but only because this guy pulled off some crazy shit that no one saw coming. That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls.
The really sick thing is that despite scale of the tragedy, Mr NRA or some such will cough up some crap like "it weren't the gun that killed 'em, it was this pinko/lefty/gamer/freak/ (fill in the blank)... it's the god given right of every American blah blah blah."
"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," Perino said, noting that Bush and Education Secretary Margaret Spellings held a conference on school gun violence last October. "Certainly, bringing a gun into a school dormitory and shooting ... is against the law and something someone should be held accountable for," Perino said.
The really sick thing is that despite scale of the tragedy, Mr NRA or some such will cough up some crap like "it weren't the gun that killed 'em, it was this pinko/lefty/gamer/freak/ (fill in the blank)... it's the god given right of every American blah blah blah."
"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," Perino said, noting that Bush and Education Secretary Margaret Spellings held a conference on school gun violence last October. "Certainly, bringing a gun into a school dormitory and shooting ... is against the law and something someone should be held accountable for," Perino said.
Best believe, the gun lobbies (pro and con) mobilized around this story with an incredible quickness.
The really sick thing is that despite scale of the tragedy, Mr NRA or some such will cough up some crap like "it weren't the gun that killed 'em, it was this pinko/lefty/gamer/freak/ (fill in the blank)... it's the god given right of every American blah blah blah."
"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," Perino said, noting that Bush and Education Secretary Margaret Spellings held a conference on school gun violence last October. "Certainly, bringing a gun into a school dormitory and shooting ... is against the law and something someone should be held accountable for," Perino said.
Beat me to it. That statement is just beyond nuts!! Really........ the first thing that you want to express is the right to bear arms???!?!?!?
"That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls. "
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
As KK points out, the main problem here is one where people just don't know how to deal with shit they've never dealt with before. I think people are being hella kneejerk in saying, "they should have closed down campus". That seems to make sense in hindsight but only because this guy pulled off some crazy shit that no one saw coming. That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls.
As I said above, this is something that Police in Oregon train for. I work in the public schools, and they have lock down, lock out and lock in procedures that staff and little kids practice. Lock downs, out and ins happen in Portland every so often. If there is a shooting with in blocks of a school, or reports of an armed person, schools get locked down.
VT should have been on lock down until the shooter was found.
I just read a few details about how he chained the doors shut so police couldn't get in. This guy was serious, planned things out and was always going to be hard to stop. Still before chaining the doors he waited until the classrooms had all filled up. A lock out would have kept people out of the engineering building.
"That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls. "
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
I have to agree. Most public places don't have security at all so that statement is a little iffy. Think about when a suspicious package gets found or someone runs security at an airport. They clear the whole dam place out, not just the section with the package. Plus, V-Tech had 2 bomb threats in the last 2 weeks (?), so the alarms should have gone off when someone started shooting.
"That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls. "
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
My point is that is safety were the issue, there's many things one could do to insure safety but obviously, it's about balances and limits. Shutting down campus is usually only done when there's a reasonable assumption that the safety of the entire campus may be at danger. In this situation, I think it's rather early to surmise if it would have been reasonable or unreasonable to have jumped to such a concluson.
I think the larger point is that what happened to today was beyond most reasonable people's ability to comprehend, let alone predict.
As KK points out, the main problem here is one where people just don't know how to deal with shit they've never dealt with before. I think people are being hella kneejerk in saying, "they should have closed down campus". That seems to make sense in hindsight but only because this guy pulled off some crazy shit that no one saw coming. That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls.
As I said above, this is something that Police in Oregon train for. I work in the public schools, and they have lock down, lock out and lock in procedures that staff and little kids practice. Lock downs, out and ins happen in Portland every so often. If there is a shooting with in blocks of a school, or reports of an armed person, schools get locked down.
VT should have been on lock down until the shooter was found.
I just read a few details about how he chained the doors shut so police couldn't get in. This guy was serious, planned things out and was always going to be hard to stop. Still before chaining the doors he waited until the classrooms had all filled up. A lock out would have kept people out of the engineering building.
"That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls. "
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
I have to agree. Most public places don't have security at all so that statement is a little iffy. Think about when a suspicious package gets found or someone runs security at an airport. They clear the whole dam place out, not just the section with the package. Plus, V-Tech had 2 bomb threats in the last 2 weeks (?), so the alarms should have gone off when someone started shooting.
Actually, think of it the other way: two false bomb threats and you have a "boy who cried wolf situation."
All I'm saying is: let's stop second guessing. The blood isn't even off the floors yet.
"That's like telling that Amish community, "well, you should have posted better security at your school" because a gunman was able to walk in and execute a classroom full of girls. "
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
My point is that is safety were the issue, there's many things one could do to insure safety but obviously, it's about balances and limits. Shutting down campus is usually only done when there's a reasonable assumption that the safety of the entire campus may be at danger. In this situation, I think it's rather early to surmise if it would have been reasonable or unreasonable to have jumped to such a concluson.
I think the larger point is that what happened to today was beyond most reasonable people's ability to comprehend, let alone predict.
We are greiving and don't really know details yet.
Still I am not feeling your point. Like I said above, the state of Oregon prepares for just this kind of thing. It is predictable. If the attitude in Cali is we can't comprehend someone going nuts with a gun and shooting a bunch of people, you all need to think again.
sorry i guess my english is not so good...i was just trying to thank you for your reply because i liked what you wrote. I needed some better views about the subject and you helped me pondering the events. Again thanks.
Not for nothing, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids that perpetrate these acts, for the whatever the silent hell that they live through that leads to these acts must be worse that anything any of us can imagine. Whatever the causes are that lead to this violence, whether it be abuse or neglect or just unchecked mental illness, I would only wish that us as a society were better equiped to help deal with these root causes. Communication, better parenting, educating the kids about the value of human life, educating parents, teachers and peers to recognize the warning signs that kids might be at a breaking point.
Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But that's how I feel.
Not for nothing, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids that perpetrate these acts, for the whatever the silent hell that they live through that leads to these acts must be worse that anything any of us can imagine. Whatever the causes are that lead to this violence, whether it be abuse or neglect or just unchecked mental illness, I would only wish that us as a society were better equiped to help deal with these root causes. Communication, better parenting, educating the kids about the value of human life, educating parents, teachers and peers to recognize the warning signs that kids might be at a breaking point.
Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But that's how I feel.
Not sure who you are quoting, but I'll
I also hope we give the survivors, the students and family, the support they need.
Not for nothing, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids that perpetrate these acts, for the whatever the silent hell that they live through that leads to these acts must be worse that anything any of us can imagine. Whatever the causes are that lead to this violence, whether it be abuse or neglect or just unchecked mental illness, I would only wish that us as a society were better equiped to help deal with these root causes. Communication, better parenting, educating the kids about the value of human life, educating parents, teachers and peers to recognize the warning signs that kids might be at a breaking point.
Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But that's how I feel.
Not sure who you are quoting, but I'll
I also hope we give the survivors, the students and family, the support they need.
Not for nothing, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids that perpetrate these acts, for the whatever the silent hell that they live through that leads to these acts must be worse that anything any of us can imagine. Whatever the causes are that lead to this violence, whether it be abuse or neglect or just unchecked mental illness, I would only wish that us as a society were better equiped to help deal with these root causes. Communication, better parenting, educating the kids about the value of human life, educating parents, teachers and peers to recognize the warning signs that kids might be at a breaking point.
Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But that's how I feel.
Did Odub say that? That's one of the first things I think about when things like this happen. For every action, there's a reaction. The needle that broke the camels back. Whatever you wanna call it. Does it mean that it's justifiable? Ofcourse not. But these are serious things to consider as a member of society.
Not for nothing, but I can't help but feel sorry for the kids that perpetrate these acts, for the whatever the silent hell that they live through that leads to these acts must be worse that anything any of us can imagine. Whatever the causes are that lead to this violence, whether it be abuse or neglect or just unchecked mental illness, I would only wish that us as a society were better equiped to help deal with these root causes. Communication, better parenting, educating the kids about the value of human life, educating parents, teachers and peers to recognize the warning signs that kids might be at a breaking point.
Or maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. But that's how I feel.
Not sure who you are quoting, but I'll
I also hope we give the survivors, the students and family, the support they need.
I was quoting myself, from another board.
all the way. I think this trend might have to do with greater societal shifts. I wonder if these things are more prevailent when we're at war or in some kind of conflict.
Not to go off on a tangent, but I wonder if it has to do with our current administration telling a certain number of our citizens to go off and kill people (some guilty, some innocent) while telling the rest to go idly about their day. We live in a far less violent world than it used to be, but perhaps far more hypocritical as well.
It's probably impossible to really know the causes of things this rare and senseless tho.
I'm curious - so what would have happened in Oregon?
Dub and I are not fighting here folks. We both feel the great lost.
I've talked about what I know. To tell the truth I have no idea what the Higher Ed procedures are.
I think the procedures that Portland Public follows, and the Gresham Police are echoed throughout the state.
1) Schools train to go into Lock Down, Lock Out and Lock In depending on the situation. Schools remained locked until the danger is gone. In most cases that would mean that the threat has been located and is no longer a threat. I would guess monthly there is a little thing in the paper that this school or that school was locked down because there was a nearby shooting or person walking with a gun. Schools also close and lock down a few times a year because of threats.
2) The old police procedure for school shootings was to surround the school and call in the SWAT Team. If this is what the Blacksburg Police did they were not up to date.
3) The new procedure is for the first responder(s) to go directly to the threat as quick as possible. The police train, in schools, to do just this.
I know this because last week there was a school shooting in Gresham. There was an article in the paper about the cop who first got there (2 minutes after the 911 call) and how he went straight to the classroom. He determined the location of the shooter (outside the school) and radioed the arriving officers of the (now vacated) location. The school was locked-in until the shooter was found. All of this was exactly as he had trained.
(The shooters mom called the police and identified her 15yo son as the shooter as soon as she heard. The cops found him at home. No one was killed. He was mad at a few teachers. He was inspired by a Columbine docudrama.)
My feeling is that in Oregon the school would have been Locked-in and Locked-out until the shooter was found. As for how first responders reacted in VA it is too soon to know.
So to say no one could predict this and the police and school couldn't have had policies in place is just wrong.
Here's the thing to consider: the first shooting was in a girl's dorm. First reaction is: a guy shot his girlfriend. This is a reasonable assumption, and might even be correct.
Now, something to keep in mind: many university security departments are not the best trained and equipped forces on the planet. why might this be? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count: money.
So, you have a police force responding to a murder that is not used to doing just that. They deal with what looks like (and again, probably indeed WAS) a domestic dispute. They become reactive, not proactive.
Sure, in hindsight, they should have shut down the campus. But, at the time, it seemed a tidy incident, and one that is not out of the realm of possibility on a college campus.
Sadly, many university security departments are not equipped with what happened next. The incident that they assumed (obviously, and terribly, wrongly) was over with a jilted lover shooting, turned into something INFINITELY worse. Something like this had never happened on a university campus (and the Texas belltower shooting was different) and the reacted wrongly. Sadly, VTU will end up being the test case for this.
The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time. These are all sad, but we just don't hear about all of them. People are quick to judge on this one, but the fact is this is a unique situation. I spoke with my father tonight, who is a provost, and he said they ran test cases at his university this January, and he says feels sufficiently prepared for such a nightmare situation, all things considered. But, the fact is, one never knows, and tragically, for many families tonight, no one at VTU expected this to happen.
R.I.P. to the families involved. may we all learn a lesson from this.
VT should have been on lock down until the shooter was found.
Agreed. I recall that VT was locked down at the beginning of the school year after an escaped con was reportedly spotted on campus. Nothing happened and the guy was quickly caught. Pure speculation of course, but could the school administration have been just a little hesitant to repeat that situation after being critisized by some for their "overreaction" in the prior incident? Saying.
VT should have been on lock down until the shooter was found.
Agreed. I recall that VT was locked down at the beginning of the school year after an escaped con was reportedly spotted on campus. Nothing happened and the guy was quickly caught. Pure speculation of course, but could the school administration have been just a little hesitant to repeat that situation after being critisized by some for their "overreaction" in the prior incident? Saying.
Sure, in hindsight, they should have shut down the campus. But, at the time, it seemed a tidy incident, and one that is not out of the realm of possibility on a college campus.
Sadly, many university security departments are not equipped with what happened next. The incident that they assumed (obviously, and terribly, wrongly) was over with a jilted lover shooting, turned into something INFINITELY worse. Something like this had never happened on a university campus (and the Texas belltower shooting was different) and the reacted wrongly. Sadly, VTU will end up being the test case for this.
The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time. These are all sad, but we just don't hear about all of them. People are quick to judge on this one, but the fact is this is a unique situation. I spoke with my father tonight, who is a provost, and he said they ran test cases at his university this January, and he says feels sufficiently prepared for such a nightmare situation, all things considered. But, the fact is, one never knows, and tragically, for many families tonight, no one at VTU expected this to happen.
R.I.P. to the families involved. may we all learn a lesson from this.
i agree 100%.
it is very sad situation indeed, and passing blame doesn't seem like the most appropriate thing at this moment.
and maybe i am off here, but at the school i went to, the university of texas (granted one of the largest universities in the nation), i just can't grasp how any 'lockdown' could really occur in an efficient manner. my understanding is that this kid wasn't going around campus shooting up a storm. he shot and killed at point A., walked over to point B. and shot and killed again. i guess i am just not sure in a practical situation how he could have been realistically identified and stopped.
also, this idea of notifying the entire campus, which also seems impracticle, would likely create chaos, making this shooter probably harder to indentify.
maybe i am wrong, and perhaps the lockdown should have occured, but either way we can't undo what has been done, and passing blame just seems like misguided emotions at this time.
maybe i am wrong, and perhaps the lockdown should have occured, but either way we can't undo what has been done, and passing blame just seems like misguided emotions at this time.
Personally, I just don't see how you prevent things like this once they are in motion. You just have to pray that like the situation at the Utah mall a month or 2 back, that the cops get lucky and have an opportunity to take the guy out straight away. Unfortunately, days like today, luck runs the other way, and it's absolutely tragic.
Everyone seeing an opportunity to harp about taking guns away/keeping guns available needs to save that shit for another day. Til all the facts are in, this is just too much to take in. One person with murder on their mind can destroy so much it's just unreal.
Corny as it sounds, I hope all of you guys and gals out there are safe and sound tonight, and that the good outweighs the bad in your lives. Take this moment to feel some consolation in an unsure world, and pray for the families of this senseless tragedy.
Comments
Bush kinda did that this morning: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/16/national/w122011D11.DTL
"The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed," Perino said, noting that Bush and Education Secretary Margaret Spellings held a conference on school gun violence last October. "Certainly, bringing a gun into a school dormitory and shooting ... is against the law and something someone should be held accountable for," Perino said.
Uh...
Best believe, the gun lobbies (pro and con) mobilized around this story with an incredible quickness.
Beat me to it. That statement is just beyond nuts!! Really........ the first thing that you want to express is the right to bear arms???!?!?!?
that comparison makes absolutely no sense. there was no pre-shooting in that situation. also the 9/11 plane comment makes no sense. but i have no reason to start an argument in this thread. thoughts and prayers with all of blacksburg.
As I said above, this is something that Police in Oregon train for. I work in the public schools, and they have lock down, lock out and lock in procedures that staff and little kids practice. Lock downs, out and ins happen in Portland every so often. If there is a shooting with in blocks of a school, or reports of an armed person, schools get locked down.
VT should have been on lock down until the shooter was found.
I just read a few details about how he chained the doors shut so police couldn't get in. This guy was serious, planned things out and was always going to be hard to stop. Still before chaining the doors he waited until the classrooms had all filled up. A lock out would have kept people out of the engineering building.
I have to agree. Most public places don't have security at all so that statement is a little iffy. Think about when a suspicious package gets found or someone runs security at an airport. They clear the whole dam place out, not just the section with the package. Plus, V-Tech had 2 bomb threats in the last 2 weeks (?), so the alarms should have gone off when someone started shooting.
My point is that is safety were the issue, there's many things one could do to insure safety but obviously, it's about balances and limits. Shutting down campus is usually only done when there's a reasonable assumption that the safety of the entire campus may be at danger. In this situation, I think it's rather early to surmise if it would have been reasonable or unreasonable to have jumped to such a concluson.
I think the larger point is that what happened to today was beyond most reasonable people's ability to comprehend, let alone predict.
insane.
Actually, think of it the other way: two false bomb threats and you have a "boy who cried wolf situation."
All I'm saying is: let's stop second guessing. The blood isn't even off the floors yet.
We are greiving and don't really know details yet.
Still I am not feeling your point. Like I said above, the state of Oregon prepares for just this kind of thing. It is predictable. If the attitude in Cali is we can't comprehend someone going nuts with a gun and shooting a bunch of people, you all need to think again.
Not sure who you are quoting, but I'll
I also hope we give the survivors, the students and family, the support they need.
I was quoting myself, from another board.
Did Odub say that? That's one of the first things I think about when things like this happen. For every action, there's a reaction. The needle that broke the camels back. Whatever you wanna call it. Does it mean that it's justifiable? Ofcourse not. But these are serious things to consider as a member of society.
Not to go off on a tangent, but I wonder if it has to do with our current administration telling a certain number of our citizens to go off and kill people (some guilty, some innocent) while telling the rest to go idly about their day. We live in a far less violent world than it used to be, but perhaps far more hypocritical as well.
It's probably impossible to really know the causes of things this rare and senseless tho.
Dub and I are not fighting here folks. We both feel the great lost.
I've talked about what I know. To tell the truth I have no idea what the Higher Ed procedures are.
I think the procedures that Portland Public follows, and the Gresham Police are echoed throughout the state.
1) Schools train to go into Lock Down, Lock Out and Lock In depending on the situation. Schools remained locked until the danger is gone. In most cases that would mean that the threat has been located and is no longer a threat. I would guess monthly there is a little thing in the paper that this school or that school was locked down because there was a nearby shooting or person walking with a gun. Schools also close and lock down a few times a year because of threats.
2) The old police procedure for school shootings was to surround the school and call in the SWAT Team. If this is what the Blacksburg Police did they were not up to date.
3) The new procedure is for the first responder(s) to go directly to the threat as quick as possible. The police train, in schools, to do just this.
I know this because last week there was a school shooting in Gresham. There was an article in the paper about the cop who first got there (2 minutes after the 911 call) and how he went straight to the classroom. He determined the location of the shooter (outside the school) and radioed the arriving officers of the (now vacated) location. The school was locked-in until the shooter was found. All of this was exactly as he had trained.
(The shooters mom called the police and identified her 15yo son as the shooter as soon as she heard. The cops found him at home. No one was killed. He was mad at a few teachers. He was inspired by a Columbine docudrama.)
My feeling is that in Oregon the school would have been Locked-in and Locked-out until the shooter was found. As for how first responders reacted in VA it is too soon to know.
So to say no one could predict this and the police and school couldn't have had policies in place is just wrong.
Lets hope a better day is coming.
Now, something to keep in mind: many university security departments are not the best trained and equipped forces on the planet. why might this be? I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count: money.
So, you have a police force responding to a murder that is not used to doing just that. They deal with what looks like (and again, probably indeed WAS) a domestic dispute. They become reactive, not proactive.
Sure, in hindsight, they should have shut down the campus. But, at the time, it seemed a tidy incident, and one that is not out of the realm of possibility on a college campus.
Sadly, many university security departments are not equipped with what happened next. The incident that they assumed (obviously, and terribly, wrongly) was over with a jilted lover shooting, turned into something INFINITELY worse. Something like this had never happened on a university campus (and the Texas belltower shooting was different) and the reacted wrongly. Sadly, VTU will end up being the test case for this.
The thing to keep in mind is this: murders, suicides, accidental deaths...these things happen on college campuses all the time. These are all sad, but we just don't hear about all of them. People are quick to judge on this one, but the fact is this is a unique situation. I spoke with my father tonight, who is a provost, and he said they ran test cases at his university this January, and he says feels sufficiently prepared for such a nightmare situation, all things considered. But, the fact is, one never knows, and tragically, for many families tonight, no one at VTU expected this to happen.
R.I.P. to the families involved. may we all learn a lesson from this.
Agreed.
I recall that VT was locked down at the beginning of the school year after an escaped con was reportedly spotted on campus. Nothing happened and the guy was quickly caught.
Pure speculation of course, but could the school administration have been just a little hesitant to repeat that situation after being critisized by some for their "overreaction" in the prior incident?
Saying.
damn.
i agree 100%.
it is very sad situation indeed, and passing blame doesn't seem like the most appropriate thing at this moment.
and maybe i am off here, but at the school i went to, the university of texas (granted one of the largest universities in the nation), i just can't grasp how any 'lockdown' could really occur in an efficient manner. my understanding is that this kid wasn't going around campus shooting up a storm. he shot and killed at point A., walked over to point B. and shot and killed again. i guess i am just not sure in a practical situation how he could have been realistically identified and stopped.
also, this idea of notifying the entire campus, which also seems impracticle, would likely create chaos, making this shooter probably harder to indentify.
maybe i am wrong, and perhaps the lockdown should have occured, but either way we can't undo what has been done, and passing blame just seems like misguided emotions at this time.
Personally, I just don't see how you prevent things like this once they are in motion. You just have to pray that like the situation at the Utah mall a month or 2 back, that the cops get lucky and have an opportunity to take the guy out straight away. Unfortunately, days like today, luck runs the other way, and it's absolutely tragic.
Everyone seeing an opportunity to harp about taking guns away/keeping guns available needs to save that shit for another day. Til all the facts are in, this is just too much to take in. One person with murder on their mind can destroy so much it's just unreal.
Corny as it sounds, I hope all of you guys and gals out there are safe and sound tonight, and that the good outweighs the bad in your lives. Take this moment to feel some consolation in an unsure world, and pray for the families of this senseless tragedy.