we are beating a dead horse, but just so i can go out with the last word here, NASH HAS WON 2 MVPS!! check the stats. there have been a handful of pgs to ever win mvp, and i can' think of any who have won it twice (did magic?). that is some legendary shit right there. you can talk about what stockton did in his career, but if the debate is strictly about who is a better player, you don't get much more direct evidence than 2 mvp awards v. none.
the plaintiff rests, your honor.
It's a little harder to get an MVP when you're playing against dudes like Jordan, Magic and Bird. Just sayin'...
Melo's dunks (hard as fuck) and his steal at the end and free throws to seal the win, Camby's disgusting block that went from the basket to half court and about 5 or 6 rows back into the crowd, Kleiza with a career high 3 blocks, Nene with the spin move through the Dallas defense ending in a nasty dunk, and the simple fact that the whole team stepped up defensively. I think this =was Dallas' lowest scoring game of the season, and our lowest scoring win of the season for sure. Hells to the yeahs.
We won even with that bullshit excuse for officiating in the first half. They call all the little irrelevant touch fouls against us and let all the obvious holding and pushing in the back and hooking fouls slide for Dallas the whole first half. They straightened up a bit in the second half and both teams were getting calls, but damn. The crowd sounded like it was about to rush the court in the 1st!
we are beating a dead horse, but just so i can go out with the last word here, NASH HAS WON 2 MVPS!! check the stats. there have been a handful of pgs to ever win mvp, and i can' think of any who have won it twice (did magic?). that is some legendary shit right there. you can talk about what stockton did in his career, but if the debate is strictly about who is a better player, you don't get much more direct evidence than 2 mvp awards v. none.
the plaintiff rests, your honor.
It's a little harder to get an MVP when you're playing against dudes like Jordan, Magic and Bird. Just sayin'...
This is the most illegitimate comparison. Nash has NO D. Nash has a GREAT squad around him. Not to take anything away from the man but he won both of those MVPs with a Phoenix squad that plays to his strengths. He is a shooter and a passer and a runner but he is not a complete player.
Rock's right - put Nash on a squad with a bunch of bottom tier players like Stockton had and not only is he not a contender for the championship (oh wait, he still isn't ) but I don't see him getting the MVP. Notice that as good as he was on Dallas, he had no rings, no MVP, AND he had Dirk on the squad!
Beyond that, look at the only other two guards to have gotten back to back MVPs - Magic and Jordan. Man, Steve Nash ain't even in the same BUILDING as those dudes.
From his bio on NBA.com, this just illustrates exactly who's shoes the man is trying to fill:
Became just the third player (Magic Johnson seven times, John Stockton three times[/b]) to post double figures in assists in seven consecutive playoff games (May 12-26, 2006) and first to do so since Stockton did it in the 1996 NBA Playoffs[/b]
Not to mention that for the Suns in particular, KJ *still* holds the record for 30 pt/10 asst playoff games (7).
I never fully agreed with the back-to-back MVP awards, still I am not going to dispute Nash's talent and performance. But plaese to be serious.
it seems like you were quoting me but responding to kvh, but just to clarify, i was saying stockton didn't get mvp when he was out there slaying shit because jordan bird and magic were getting them all. nash doesn't have such stout competition these days, and like you said, he is surrounded with an amazing supporting cast. and he doesn't play defense. great player? yes. mvp quality for the present state of the league? yes. does this mean he is better than john stockton was? no. He's still a great point guard and really fun to watch though.
Nash has a GREAT squad around him. Not to take anything away from the man but he won both of those MVPs with a Phoenix squad that plays to his strengths. He is a shooter and a passer and a runner but he is not a complete player.
Rock's right - put Nash on a squad with a bunch of bottom tier players like Stockton had and not only is he not a contender for the championship (oh wait, he still isn't ) but I don't see him getting the MVP.
Ah, the hypocrisy in fandom.
I don't get it. It is a great understatement to say that "Nash facilitates the offense in Phoenix." He made stars out of dudes like Marion, Barbosa, and Diaw. They were not household names much like Jeff Hornacek, Shandon Anderson, and Brian Russell.
mvp quality for the present state of the league? yes. does this mean he is better than john stockton was? no.
the nba is slightly diluted now because there are too many teams. however, what basis do you have to say that the talent level is not as good as it was in the late 80s/early nineties or whenever you think stockton was at his peak? it is undisputed that the nba has better athletes now, right? its also a given that the nba is pooling from more resources than it has in the past (look how many players from overseas we have now). ok, so better athletes and a bigger talent pool. but...because there were a few more legends and a few less teams, that brings you guys to the conlusion that the nba was far better? please!!!
there were so many bums playing in the 80s it was a joke. it was basically a rule that every nba team must have a few white nobodys to fill out the roster. the sixers had this guy Bob Thornton who couldnt even play on my lawyer's league team. you guys all are living in a fantasy world if you think the nba (as a whole) had more talent. the only negative right now is that there are too many teams. the talent level is tremendous. i know guys who were shitty college players that got drafted in the 80s when there were 5 rounds. now its almost impossible for a guy who isnt a superstar in college to even make a pro team.
that being said, your arguments about stockton are WEAK!! if we transplanted his utah team in the current nba they would be a decent team, but if anyone deserved the mvp it would be Malone. Nash is LEGIT. he does so much more with the ball than stockton could every dream of. and sorry, but if stockton was such a great defender, show me where he made the all-defensive team (1st, 2nd or 3rd team)????
Not responding to anybody in particular......just in general.
Nash and Stockton are apples and oranges.
It's easy for a fan to appreciate Nash. I think you have to actually have an understanding of the game (i.e. the game plays) to appreciate Stockton.
I'm guessing a lot of people posting in this thread never played organized basketball. I'm not shocked there are a lot of Stockton haters in this thread.
I agree with the headgames comment on stockton (i also dispise the man beyond belief) and his general basketball smarts. He was an exellent player. This comparison with nash is weak in thesense that both sides are using a diminuation of the compared player depending on their opnion on nash. I hate stockton but agree he was an incredible pg
Nash is an excellent player as well, a very special PG and highly deserving of his 2 mvps no one should objectively wholly contest that.
I agree with some of your points actually. Unfortunately, Stockton has entered that rare class of players like Jordan, Magic, Barkley, and Malone (Moses or Karl) who have defined an era and as time passes, will only be remembered as the glorious legends that they were. yawmean?
there were so many bums playing in the 80s it was a joke.
There probably were. And the game's best players were not doubled on the regular. Although it seems players had a better basketball IQ.
But back to my initial point, Nash > Stockton is just as hard to prove as Kobe > Jordan. They are different types of players under different circumstances, during different eras. So why did I make the comparion at all? I should have rephrased my initial post to "Nash is not yet in the Isiah/Magic/Stockton camp." He definitely has the potential if he wins anything in the playoffs. We'll just have to see the next 5 years.
The Nuggets are on a good one. We just won on a back 2 back, coming off winning 2 on the previous back 2 back on tuesday and wednesday, and we are now neck and neck with the Lakers.
Last night was perfect. Saw Grindhouse, got to the homeboy's house just in time for the beginning of UFC 69, that ended just as there were 2 minutes left in the Nugs/Clips game and watched the Nuggets win a really close one with Kleiza hitting what would end up being the game-winning 3 pointer when he was 0 for 7 from behind the arch. It was a good night for on-screen entertainment.
Nuggets have won 5 straight. Also, it was our 3rd win this season where we've scored less than 100 points, the 2nd being against Dallas the night before. These guys are really stepping up their team defense. They've learned how to win games when they aren't shooting a high percentage, this is so important, especially for the playoffs. Looks like we'll be seeing the Lakers again next. How are they going to hold up against the Suns today? Should be a good game.
aka the motherfuckin' TRUTH. This dude is going to be one of the nastiest offensive low post players in the league next year. He is now in my opinion, but I'm biased. It's just so nice to see him emerge with his talent in such a timely fashion. Dude has no fear. He will try to dunk on anybody in the league, and he can do it most of the time.
rkw- definitely, I had the Warriors in mind when the Nugs won last night!
aka the motherfuckin' TRUTH. This dude is going to be one of the nastiest offensive low post players in the league next year. He is now in my opinion, but I'm biased. It's just so nice to see him emerge with his talent in such a timely fashion. Dude has no fear. He will try to dunk on anybody in the league, and he can do it most of the time.
What buggs me out in looking at Camby's and Nene's physiques, you would think Nene would play at the 5 and Camby at the 4, but its the other way around.
My good friend from the BX told me stories last night of getting stoned with Marcus Camby back in his Knicks days, a number of times... maybe it's the weed he's getting out in Denver that's making the difference.
My good friend from the BX told me stories last night of getting stoned with Marcus Camby back in his Knicks days, a number of times... maybe it's the weed he's getting out in Denver that's making the difference.
denver altitude. mile high club! cotton camby has the same physique he did at umass.
My good friend from the BX told me stories last night of getting stoned with Marcus Camby back in his Knicks days, a number of times... maybe it's the weed he's getting out in Denver that's making the difference.
Haha, that could be true, west coast kill all day!
I think he's just getting older and trying to reserve his energy more these days.
In terms of him playing Center instead of power forward, I think it's mainly a stability factor. Camby's been there the whole time Melo's been on the team, and with those two in stable positions, they can shuffle other players around. Nene sometimes subs for Camby at the 5, but he is also pretty effective at the PF position so why not keep him there. Plus, Camby has the experience to lead the team from that position when it is needed.
Steve Smith was at this little lounge I dj at in philly last night. I think he has family here. Was kinda funny to see him dancing. His jumper is much smoother.
Lakers are pretty much digging themselves a deeeep hole right now. They dropped down to the 7th spot in the West.....With each descending spot, they put themselves in a tougher series. From SA to Phoenix to Dallas. Plaese to get it together Smush and others.
Comments
It's a little harder to get an MVP when you're playing against dudes like Jordan, Magic and Bird. Just sayin'...
Mavericks 71
Nuggets 75
Highlights:
Melo's dunks (hard as fuck) and his steal at the end and free throws to seal the win, Camby's disgusting block that went from the basket to half court and about 5 or 6 rows back into the crowd, Kleiza with a career high 3 blocks, Nene with the spin move through the Dallas defense ending in a nasty dunk, and the simple fact that the whole team stepped up defensively. I think this =was Dallas' lowest scoring game of the season, and our lowest scoring win of the season for sure. Hells to the yeahs.
We won even with that bullshit excuse for officiating in the first half. They call all the little irrelevant touch fouls against us and let all the obvious holding and pushing in the back and hooking fouls slide for Dallas the whole first half. They straightened up a bit in the second half and both teams were getting calls, but damn. The crowd sounded like it was about to rush the court in the 1st!
This is the most illegitimate comparison. Nash has NO D. Nash has a GREAT squad around him. Not to take anything away from the man but he won both of those MVPs with a Phoenix squad that plays to his strengths. He is a shooter and a passer and a runner but he is not a complete player.
Rock's right - put Nash on a squad with a bunch of bottom tier players like Stockton had and not only is he not a contender for the championship (oh wait, he still isn't
Beyond that, look at the only other two guards to have gotten back to back MVPs - Magic and Jordan. Man, Steve Nash ain't even in the same BUILDING as those dudes.
From his bio on NBA.com, this just illustrates exactly who's shoes the man is trying to fill:
Not to mention that for the Suns in particular, KJ *still* holds the record for 30 pt/10 asst playoff games (7).
I never fully agreed with the back-to-back MVP awards, still I am not going to dispute Nash's talent and performance. But plaese to be serious.
I wish I had a record store near me where I could go and talk intelligent Hoops while I am digging!!!
Ah, the hypocrisy in fandom.
I don't get it. It is a great understatement to say that "Nash facilitates the offense in Phoenix." He made stars out of dudes like Marion, Barbosa, and Diaw.
They were not household names much like Jeff Hornacek, Shandon Anderson, and Brian Russell.
Nash deserved every one of those 2 MVPs.
the nba is slightly diluted now because there are too many teams. however, what basis do you have to say that the talent level is not as good as it was in the late 80s/early nineties or whenever you think stockton was at his peak? it is undisputed that the nba has better athletes now, right? its also a given that the nba is pooling from more resources than it has in the past (look how many players from overseas we have now). ok, so better athletes and a bigger talent pool. but...because there were a few more legends and a few less teams, that brings you guys to the conlusion that the nba was far better? please!!!
there were so many bums playing in the 80s it was a joke. it was basically a rule that every nba team must have a few white nobodys to fill out the roster. the sixers had this guy Bob Thornton who couldnt even play on my lawyer's league team. you guys all are living in a fantasy world if you think the nba (as a whole) had more talent. the only negative right now is that there are too many teams. the talent level is tremendous. i know guys who were shitty college players that got drafted in the 80s when there were 5 rounds. now its almost impossible for a guy who isnt a superstar in college to even make a pro team.
that being said, your arguments about stockton are WEAK!! if we transplanted his utah team in the current nba they would be a decent team, but if anyone deserved the mvp it would be Malone. Nash is LEGIT. he does so much more with the ball than stockton could every dream of. and sorry, but if stockton was such a great defender, show me where he made the all-defensive team (1st, 2nd or 3rd team)????
Nash and Stockton are apples and oranges.
It's easy for a fan to appreciate Nash. I think you have to actually have an understanding of the game (i.e. the game plays) to appreciate Stockton.
I'm guessing a lot of people posting in this thread never played organized basketball. I'm not shocked there are a lot of Stockton haters in this thread.
Could be wrong though.
Nash is an excellent player as well, a very special PG and highly deserving of his 2 mvps no one should objectively wholly contest that.
So that's it..not much more to be said IMO
Stocktons day was different.
I agree with some of your points actually. Unfortunately, Stockton has entered that rare class of players like Jordan, Magic, Barkley, and Malone (Moses or Karl) who have defined an era and as time passes, will only be remembered as the glorious legends that they were. yawmean?
There probably were. And the game's best players were not doubled on the regular. Although it seems players had a better basketball IQ.
But back to my initial point, Nash > Stockton is just as hard to prove as Kobe > Jordan.
Yuichi
Last night was perfect. Saw Grindhouse, got to the homeboy's house just in time for the beginning of UFC 69, that ended just as there were 2 minutes left in the Nugs/Clips game and watched the Nuggets win a really close one with Kleiza hitting what would end up being the game-winning 3 pointer when he was 0 for 7 from behind the arch. It was a good night for on-screen entertainment.
Nuggets have won 5 straight. Also, it was our 3rd win this season where we've scored less than 100 points, the 2nd being against Dallas the night before. These guys are really stepping up their team defense. They've learned how to win games when they aren't shooting a high percentage, this is so important, especially for the playoffs. Looks like we'll be seeing the Lakers again next. How are they going to hold up against the Suns today? Should be a good game.
aka the motherfuckin' TRUTH. This dude is going to be one of the nastiest offensive low post players in the league next year. He is now in my opinion, but I'm biased. It's just so nice to see him emerge with his talent in such a timely fashion. Dude has no fear. He will try to dunk on anybody in the league, and he can do it most of the time.
rkw- definitely, I had the Warriors in mind when the Nugs won last night!
What buggs me out in looking at Camby's and Nene's physiques, you would think Nene would play at the 5 and Camby at the 4, but its the other way around.
efficiency + amare monster action
denver altitude. mile high club! cotton camby has the same physique he did at umass.
Haha, that could be true, west coast kill all day!
I think he's just getting older and trying to reserve his energy more these days.
In terms of him playing Center instead of power forward, I think it's mainly a stability factor. Camby's been there the whole time Melo's been on the team, and with those two in stable positions, they can shuffle other players around. Nene sometimes subs for Camby at the 5, but he is also pretty effective at the PF position so why not keep him there. Plus, Camby has the experience to lead the team from that position when it is needed.
Im coppin this tonight!!!
I smell fear. Tell the truth Rock, Don Nelson is a tricky muthafucka. Have you guys faced them after the trade?
Haha. Are you serious? It doesn't matter who the Mavs play, that team gets one game at the most in the first round.