Funny, you don't object to any of my statements. (That's what happens when I drop the REAAAAALL.)
ringless fingers make your statements moot. Jordon won rings - no need to make reasons he didn't win when up against those early Pistons teams. Charles Barkley brought his teams to get shot down by Jordan (Kevin Johnson running your point and you make it to the finals???) Should Kobe, by your logic should be given time to let his rep match his rings??? I say fuck that - be Peyton Manning and at the very least put yourself in position to win something. right now, Kobe's Michelle Wie with a jump shot.
Ty Cobb = One of the GOAT baseball players = ASSHOLE
O.J. = One of the GOAT football players = ASSHOLE
Kobe = One of the GOAT basketball players =
And to Faux Rillz....Everytime I see you post on a hoops thread I can't help but think of the dude in your avatar playing for the Washington Generals and taking waist high set shots.
And to Faux Rillz....Everytime I see you post on a hoops thread I can't help but think of the dude in your avatar playing for the Washington Generals and taking waist high set shots.
Is that so, gramps?
I let Dolo make personal insults because he's a little punk who will never show his face in public....
You on the other hand should be above that kind of schitt.
And to Faux Rillz....Everytime I see you post on a hoops thread I can't help but think of the dude in your avatar playing for the Washington Generals and taking waist high set shots.
Is that so, gramps?
I let Dolo make personal insults because he's a little punk who will never show his face in public....
You on the other hand should be above that kind of schitt.
you do nnot get to be considered one of the greatest in your field when you are unable to produce the ulitmate goal - the championship. kobe's made it known he will win a championship being the 1st option. The real is doing what he says - anything else makes him part of a collection of very impressive players.
The beauty of sports is what you actually have a winner and a loser. All the reasons the loser claims are valids statements never negate the fact they've not been the better player/team/etc. because THEY DID NOT WIN IT ALL. Reggie, Ewing, Malone et al are all great players. Even Pippen, Horrey & YES even Kobe are winners and amazing players, but Pippen better than Jordan??? Now we know why his nose is so blown. and Jordan never won without PIppen, but to say Pippen's better than Jordan is just stupid.
Shaq won without Kobe. FACT. You can explain it away however you want, but it's simply something he's never even come close to doing. I don't understand why winning doesn't mean anything in this convo. Kobe will never win a ring ever again. you think Kobe didn't co-sign Odom the same way Shaq said he wasn't going to Miami is Wade wasn't still there? you guys would rather playout hypotheticals than look at results.
Is it too much to ask the the "greatest player in the game" to take his team to the greatest heights? How many years does he need????
Coming here and sparring with Yuichi is a lot of fun. Dude is a good guy and loves his hoops. And that's coming from an obese Shaq fan.
------------------------------
this will not turn into Harvey v Cosmo.
I love my hoops too (I'm a fucking Knicks season ticket holder living in Nashville - talk about unconditional love). As much as I love Ewing, he's not a top 5 center cuz he never won a ring.
the only people who talk about athletes not being "winners" because they never won a championship are non-athletes. if michael jordan didn't have phil jackson, who knows if he would have ever got a ring. if he didnt get one, would you consider him a loser? was he a loser until he got one....7 years or so into his career?
get serious. there are hundreds of bums who have won professional championships. this argument is just ridiculous.
if you wanna talk about some specific attribute that seperates all these great athletes who play in the nba...its probably a combination of intelligence and heart. jordan was a smart player and had more heart that anyone i've seen play, although Iverson gives him a run for his money in that department. Right now, i think Nash, Kobe and Wade are up there too (definitely in terms of heart, kobe and wade don't have the intelligence of jordan just yet). Lebron is a little short on both and Dirk has the dedication but its difficult to compare his competitiveness to someone like Iverson because AI, as a guard, covers much more ground and is a part of a larger % of plays.
the only people who talk about athletes not being "winners" because they never won a championship are non-athletes. if michael jordan didn't have phil jackson, who knows if he would have ever got a ring. if he didnt get one, would you consider him a loser? was he a loser until he got one....7 years or so into his career?
and thankfully we don't have to debate MJ's greatness. He won. He's stats and his rings speak for themselves. and he wasn't a loser when he didn't have one - but he also wasn't considered the greatest player on the face of the earth. The crux of the convo isn't whether Kobe's a great player - simply should he be considered the greatest player EVAR when he's never taken a team even to Ewing heights without Shaq. top 5 in the game right now? of course. Top 100 to ever lace 'em up??? prolly. Top 50??? for me, the jury's still out. If he were to win one without Shaq??? Makes the arguement much easier to put him in the rarified air of Robinson, Russell, Jordan, Johnson, et al.
Shaq was the focal point of those ring-winning teams - that is a fact. And Kobe's an impressive player. GOAT??? far from it.
As much as I enjoy trashing Kobe the human, I can't front about his talent.
Does he belong in the Top 5o NBA players - Yes
Was he a LARGE part of the Laker's titles - YES
Is he the best player in the league today, talent wise - Arguably, Yes.
Everyone has their flaws, but to have them overblown, and be public enemy #1 for so long can be tough for a sensitive dude. Imagine being booed in your hometown? If you start to understand that, you can probably find something about him to cheer about. He's some what of the anomaly of a sports icon. You go to places like Japan and China, motherfuckers over there show nothing but love. Over there, they don't care about the overplayed negative press, they just care about the smile and the mad game. And in the end that's all that should matter.
Get rings or make excuses. What's realler than that????
Here it goes!
1) Question: What has Kobe had to work with these past 2 years?
Answer: A rotating cast of mainly young and undeveloped players.
2) Question: What has contributed to Shaquille O'neal's glory in Miami?
Answer: Take that "Shaq is the centerpiece on any team" mentality out the window for a second. The answer would be a budding global superstar named Dwyane Wade, who might I add, single-handedly destroyed the Dallas Mavericks in the Championship series.
Let's keep facts and opinions seperate.
lets see... when wade was a rookie he took that team w/ lamar odom, caron butler deep into the playoffs.
kobe with lamar and caron, didnt get close.
not to say wade is a better player than kobe but in terms of making teamates better i'd choose wade.
i mean serious, be real! do you work for kobe? are you on his payroll?
Shaq was the focal point of those ring-winning teams - that is a fact.
I strongly disagree. He could have been the "focal point" for the first three quarters, but when it REALLY mattered, he was not.
You're talking about Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Dwyane Wade, Gary Payton, and Alonzo Mourning who made CRUCIAL PLAYS DOWN THE STRETCH, WHEN IT MATTERED THE MOST. There's really no arguing that.
Now, Shaq may have left a better impession on you, being the most visible, dancing down court with a 7'1 frame after a dookie dunk over a Rasheed Wallace or what have you, but these other players were just as important if not more, when it counted.
This is truth. Whether you want to accept it is your choice.
Shaq was the focal point of those ring-winning teams - that is a fact.
I strongly disagree. He could have been the "focal point" for the first three quarters, but when it REALLY mattered, he was not.
You're talking about Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Dwyane Wade, Gary Payton, and Alonzo Mourning who made CRUCIAL PLAYS DOWN THE STRETCH, WHEN IT MATTERED THE MOST. There's really no arguing that.
Now, Shaq may have left a better impession on you, being the most visible, dancing down court with a 7'1 frame after a dookie dunk over a Rasheed Wallace or what have you, but these other players were just as important if not more, when it counted.
This is truth. Whether you want to accept it is your choice.
So what you're saying is that basketball is a TEAM game? Amazing! So you mean that Kerr and Paxson made game winning shots in Championship games with Jordan playing? Unheard of!
Shaq can still be the best player on a team and let teammates shine.
Shaq has said publicly he's not the youngun he use to be and he knows that Wayde is the focus of his team now with the Heat. But look at what they've been doing. No Wayde and they're still winning with Shaq as the focal point. The question is whether he'll have any gas come playoff time.
Being as neutral and fair as I can be about it, Kobe was to Shaq what Pippen was to Jordan(Although I think Kobe is a MUCH better player than Scottie).
Shaq is the type of player who you build a championship team around.
It's been done twice.
That doesn't make Shaq the best player in the league.
It just means that he brings something that can rarely be duplicated(or defended) and with the right GOOD players around him, can't be beat.
You guys take nothing with a grain of salt do you? Everything is so black and white. No it ain't. I'm bringing the other side of the picture. Listen up.
Shaq can still be the best player on a team and let teammates shine.
By clogging the middle and forcing guards to make incredible shots around the perimeter? YES. His ass was sitting on the sidelines in the fourth cuz of foul trouble or cuz he can't hit freethrows! You can call that "letting teammates shine" or whatever.
Shaq has said publicly he's not the youngun he use to be and he knows that Wayde is the focus of his team now with the Heat. But look at what they've been doing. No Wayde and they're still winning with Shaq as the focal point. The question is whether he'll have any gas come playoff time.
Your point being?! Shaq needed to protect his rep, he shut up for once and let D. Wade take the reins. WADE was and will always be the man in Miami, NOT SHAQ. Therefore, Shaq is not the "focal point on every team he's been on".
Being as neutral and fair as I can be about it, Kobe was to Shaq what Pippen was to Jordan(Although I think Kobe is a MUCH better player than Scottie).
Shaq is the type of player who you build a championship team around.
It's been done twice.
That doesn't make Shaq the best player in the league.
It just means that he brings something that can rarely be duplicated(or defended) and with the right GOOD players around him, can't be beat.
You see, you dudes, what Rockadelic is saying here is more convincing.
Basketball is the type of sport where you're much better off taking a shot 2 ft away from the rim than 22ft. Which means SYSTEMATICALLY, the great teams of late have almost always utilized the big man as one of their main weapons. "Working inside out". Good big men are hard to come by, so Shaq is great.
So who do you give props to? The big men who roam 2ft away from the basket or the guards and forwards who make substantially more difficult shots?
You can do that based on your own subjective impressions. What I don't appreciate is the "Kobe hasn't won't shit without Shaq, NO EXCUSES". It just makes me sigh, are you on that level?
Got to catch Mavs/Knicks on the Pass. It's funny listening to Clyde Frazier. Bobbito and Bobby Bacala on the halftime is chill. Renaldo Balkman has to already be a fan fave in the Garden.
Being as neutral and fair as I can be about it, Kobe was to Shaq what Pippen was to Jordan(Although I think Kobe is a MUCH better player than Scottie).
Shaq is the type of player who you build a championship team around.
It's been done twice.
That doesn't make Shaq the best player in the league.
It just means that he brings something that can rarely be duplicated(or defended) and with the right GOOD players around him, can't be beat.
You see, you dudes, what Rockadelic is saying here is more convincing.
Basketball is the type of sport where you're much better off taking a shot 2 ft away from the rim than 22ft. Which means SYSTEMATICALLY, the great teams of late have almost always utilized the big man as one of their main weapons. "Working inside out". Good big men are hard to come by, so Shaq is great.
So who do you give props to? The big men who roam 2ft away from the basket or the guards and forwards who make substantially more difficult shots?
You can do that based on your own subjective impressions. What I don't appreciate is the "Kobe hasn't won't shit without Shaq, NO EXCUSES". It just makes me sigh, are you on that level?
Uh Yuichi,you just contradicted some of what you said in the post before this.
Maybe some. I was acknowledging and expanding on Rockadelic's point. Anyway, Kobe and Dwyane are already in the top 10 guards of all time. And anytime you're playing with these legends in their own right, things are gonna be easier for your center.
The average NBA fan will think "Oh, but Shaq will attract the double/triple in the paint! That's what frees the perimeter players".
The same can be said about perimeter play and dribble-penetration by guards. On almost EVERY PLAY, KOBE GETS DOUBLED/TRIPLED, which creates space for bigs to get rebounds and catch easy passes. The same is happening in Miami right now. Wade attracts like 3 defenders every time he goes to the hoop.
oh btw, I can't believe people pay to see games like Indiana/Houston. This Yao/McGrady thing is not working. They play at different speeds. There's no synergy, they just have their own plays, and that's it.
Comments
ringless fingers make your statements moot. Jordon won rings - no need to make reasons he didn't win when up against those early Pistons teams. Charles Barkley brought his teams to get shot down by Jordan (Kevin Johnson running your point and you make it to the finals???) Should Kobe, by your logic should be given time to let his rep match his rings??? I say fuck that - be Peyton Manning and at the very least put yourself in position to win something. right now, Kobe's Michelle Wie with a jump shot.
Ty Cobb = One of the GOAT baseball players = ASSHOLE
O.J. = One of the GOAT football players = ASSHOLE
Kobe = One of the GOAT basketball players =
And to Faux Rillz....Everytime I see you post on a hoops thread I can't help but think of the dude in your avatar playing for the Washington Generals and taking waist high set shots.
Is that so, gramps?
I let Dolo make personal insults because he's a little punk who will never show his face in public....
You on the other hand should be above that kind of schitt.
But if that's all you got.....
Dude is a good guy and loves his hoops.
And that's coming from an obese Shaq fan.
------------------------------
That pic is really YOU!!!!
The beauty of sports is what you actually have a winner and a loser. All the reasons the loser claims are valids statements never negate the fact they've not been the better player/team/etc. because THEY DID NOT WIN IT ALL. Reggie, Ewing, Malone et al are all great players. Even Pippen, Horrey & YES even Kobe are winners and amazing players, but Pippen better than Jordan??? Now we know why his nose is so blown. and Jordan never won without PIppen, but to say Pippen's better than Jordan is just stupid.
Shaq won without Kobe. FACT. You can explain it away however you want, but it's simply something he's never even come close to doing. I don't understand why winning doesn't mean anything in this convo. Kobe will never win a ring ever again. you think Kobe didn't co-sign Odom the same way Shaq said he wasn't going to Miami is Wade wasn't still there? you guys would rather playout hypotheticals than look at results.
Is it too much to ask the the "greatest player in the game" to take his team to the greatest heights? How many years does he need????
this will not turn into Harvey v Cosmo.
I love my hoops too (I'm a fucking Knicks season ticket holder living in Nashville - talk about unconditional love). As much as I love Ewing, he's not a top 5 center cuz he never won a ring.
And I'm honored I've made your location!!!!
Shaq was the focal point of those ring-winning teams - that is a fact. And Kobe's an impressive player. GOAT??? far from it.
get serious. there are hundreds of bums who have won professional championships. this argument is just ridiculous.
if you wanna talk about some specific attribute that seperates all these great athletes who play in the nba...its probably a combination of intelligence and heart. jordan was a smart player and had more heart that anyone i've seen play, although Iverson gives him a run for his money in that department. Right now, i think Nash, Kobe and Wade are up there too (definitely in terms of heart, kobe and wade don't have the intelligence of jordan just yet). Lebron is a little short on both and Dirk has the dedication but its difficult to compare his competitiveness to someone like Iverson because AI, as a guard, covers much more ground and is a part of a larger % of plays.
As much as I enjoy trashing Kobe the human, I can't front about his talent.
Does he belong in the Top 5o NBA players - Yes
Was he a LARGE part of the Laker's titles - YES
Is he the best player in the league today, talent wise - Arguably, Yes.
and thankfully we don't have to debate MJ's greatness. He won. He's stats and his rings speak for themselves. and he wasn't a loser when he didn't have one - but he also wasn't considered the greatest player on the face of the earth. The crux of the convo isn't whether Kobe's a great player - simply should he be considered the greatest player EVAR when he's never taken a team even to Ewing heights without Shaq. top 5 in the game right now? of course. Top 100 to ever lace 'em up??? prolly. Top 50??? for me, the jury's still out. If he were to win one without Shaq??? Makes the arguement much easier to put him in the rarified air of Robinson, Russell, Jordan, Johnson, et al.
Everyone has their flaws, but to have them overblown, and be public enemy #1 for so long can be tough for a sensitive dude. Imagine being booed in your hometown? If you start to understand that, you can probably find something about him to cheer about. He's some what of the anomaly of a sports icon. You go to places like Japan and China, motherfuckers over there show nothing but love. Over there, they don't care about the overplayed negative press, they just care about the smile and the mad game. And in the end that's all that should matter.
He's human. I can cheer for that.
Commerical aired in Japan:
(I'm on somewhat of a crusade here huh?)
LOL
delusional warriors fans
hahaha
lets see... when wade was a rookie he took that team w/ lamar odom, caron butler deep into the playoffs.
kobe with lamar and caron, didnt get close.
not to say wade is a better player than kobe but in terms of making teamates better i'd choose wade.
i mean serious, be real! do you work for kobe? are you on his payroll?
-rich
I strongly disagree. He could have been the "focal point" for the first three quarters, but when it REALLY mattered, he was not.
You're talking about Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Dwyane Wade, Gary Payton, and Alonzo Mourning who made CRUCIAL PLAYS DOWN THE STRETCH, WHEN IT MATTERED THE MOST. There's really no arguing that.
Now, Shaq may have left a better impession on you, being the most visible, dancing down court with a 7'1 frame after a dookie dunk over a Rasheed Wallace or what have you, but these other players were just as important if not more, when it counted.
This is truth. Whether you want to accept it is your choice.
So what you're saying is that basketball is a TEAM game? Amazing! So you mean that Kerr and Paxson made game winning shots in Championship games with Jordan playing? Unheard of!
Shaq can still be the best player on a team and let teammates shine.
Shaq has said publicly he's not the youngun he use to be and he knows that Wayde is the focus of his team now with the Heat. But look at what they've been doing. No Wayde and they're still winning with Shaq as the focal point. The question is whether he'll have any gas come playoff time.
Shaq is the type of player who you build a championship team around.
It's been done twice.
That doesn't make Shaq the best player in the league.
It just means that he brings something that can rarely be duplicated(or defended) and with the right GOOD players around him, can't be beat.
No it ain't. I'm bringing the other side of the picture. Listen up.
By clogging the middle and forcing guards to make incredible shots around the perimeter? YES. His ass was sitting on the sidelines in the fourth cuz of foul trouble or cuz he can't hit freethrows! You can call that "letting teammates shine" or whatever.
Your point being?! Shaq needed to protect his rep, he shut up for once and let D. Wade take the reins. WADE was and will always be the man in Miami, NOT SHAQ. Therefore, Shaq is not the "focal point on every team he's been on".
You see, you dudes, what Rockadelic is saying here is more convincing.
Basketball is the type of sport where you're much better off taking a shot 2 ft away from the rim than 22ft. Which means SYSTEMATICALLY, the great teams of late have almost always utilized the big man as one of their main weapons. "Working inside out". Good big men are hard to come by, so Shaq is great.
So who do you give props to? The big men who roam 2ft away from the basket or the guards and forwards who make substantially more difficult shots?
You can do that based on your own subjective impressions. What I don't appreciate is the "Kobe hasn't won't shit without Shaq, NO EXCUSES". It just makes me sigh, are you on that level?
Uh Yuichi,you just contradicted some of what you said in the post before this.
The average NBA fan will think "Oh, but Shaq will attract the double/triple in the paint! That's what frees the perimeter players".
The same can be said about perimeter play and dribble-penetration by guards. On almost EVERY PLAY, KOBE GETS DOUBLED/TRIPLED, which creates space for bigs to get rebounds and catch easy passes. The same is happening in Miami right now. Wade attracts like 3 defenders every time he goes to the hoop.
I'm done.
not really
Who has Dwayne made better ?
David Stern.
He kinda made Charles Barkley worse though.