Maybe Arlington. But come the fuck on. I drive past the fucking "Confederate Whitehouse" everyday--which is brown btw.
I was born and raised in Charleston, SC and now I live in Richmond, VA. Sorry, but you can't get more "connected" to the Confederacy than that.
Sure, the Yankees misunderstand our subtle genteel form of racism. Whatever. The outcome is the same: oppression of the upward mobility of descendants of former slaves--which the Confederate battle flag has come to represent quite well. Sorry.
Y'know the "grin" I put in there was to indicate I was joking. That comment was completely for you, Fatback.
And you got it twisted. The subtle, genteel racism is the *other* side of the Mason-Dixon. We have the racism that is "Magnifique!" as D. Chappelle put it.
I caught all that. Just went off anyways. The rebel in me.
What I'm saying is this: no justification that is not intertwined with racism exists for an attachment to the rebel flag.
Can't really argue that point, "intertwined" being key for me.
I thought about this all the way home from work. I think what it comes down to, and Lord knows I may be wrong, is "stubbornness" more than anything. THe phenomenon of good, well-meaning people clinging to that flag. It remains a symbol for the region (sadly) and people don't want to let go of that even though many may have let go of the hatred their families passed down to them. To completely let loose of that flag for many would be yet another acquiescence to "the North". I'm not racist but I'm far, far from perfect and I know the reasoning I mentioned is the Devil's Advocate in my heart that tries to trick my brain that it is not right in thinking that all of the stuff you Yankees are saying is valid.
A lot of white Northerners will pat themselves on the back for being more sophisticated and accepting than their cousins in the South, when the truth is that their own racism rarely has occasion to emerge solely because they have structured their lives in such a way that they barely ever have any contact with Black people.
But none of this really has anything to do with the fact that anybody making excuses for the rebel flag is dead wrong.
It may not, but goddamn that prior paragraph deserves a :5 pager: of its own.
What I'm saying is this: no justification that is not intertwined with racism exists for an attachment to the rebel flag.
Can't really argue that point, "intertwined" being key for me.
I thought about this all the way home from work. I think what it comes down to, and Lord knows I may be wrong, is "stubbornness" more than anything. THe phenomenon of good, well-meaning people clinging to that flag. It remains a symbol for the region (sadly) and people don't want to let go of that even though many may have let go of the hatred their families passed down to them. To completely let loose of that flag for many would be yet another acquiescence to "the North". I'm not racist but I'm far, far from perfect and I know the reasoning I mentioned is the Devil's Advocate in my heart that tries to trick my brain that it is not right in thinking that all of the stuff you Yankees are saying is valid.
Cool. No hard feelings. Sorry I called what you were trying to say "bullschitt"... about ten times.
Dude, take a trip to any flea market in the south. It will blow your mind.
off the top of my head:
T-Shirts: Big flag image w/caption "If this offends, you need a history lesson" and another with a flag flying over a cotton field w/caption "Made from 100% hand-picked cotton".
Every time I see a sticker that says, "It's about heritage, not hate," I wanna cover up the little rebel flag with a picture of a noose.
This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw in Austin in the early 90s, at the height of the Malcolm X shirt/hat craze. It had a big confederate flag on it and said:
YOU WEAR YOUR X, I'LL WEAR MINE.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
That was a huge controversy at my high-school in Mississippi. They ended up banning both Confederate Flag and Malcolm X t-shirts, and a redneck parent came to school and got in a fistfight with the (black) principal.
There are plenty of people for whom the rebel flag is a source of cultural pride that, to them, has little to do with race. But those people are wrong. I'm not going to say they are all racists, but the fact that it is so offensive to so many people trumps their pride, in my opinion.
"For a black man, there's no difference between the North and the South. In the South, they don't mind how close I get, as long as I don't get too big. In the North, they don't mind how big I get, as long as I don't get too close." -Dick Gregory
Cool. No hard feelings. Sorry I called what you were trying to say "bullschitt"... about ten times.
Of course. I do realize that the number of those who would rep that flag for ugly, ugly reaons is more than the few I've romanticized. I won't speculate as to what degree for fear of incurring Harvey's wrath. I've said too much and probably already been stripped of some credentials. 'Bout to go catch some crawdads. Holler.
If you are trying to say that slavery, which was permanently entwined with popular sovereignty, was not an issue of the Civil War, you are an even bigger moron than I already assumed you to be. Talk about music for once or get the fuck off the board you dickhead. Nobody was talking about this shit in this thread.
Can you fucking read? I did not say it wasnt an issue I said it was relatively minor one. When you consider the northern states were prepared to allow slavery in the south to preserve the union and that later the southern states were prepared to abolish it to ensure independance I dont see how you can come to any other conclusion.
The South wouldn't accept this. They felt that States' Rights to choose superseded Federal law because slavery was in their best financial interest.[/b]
If the preservation of slavery was really their primary objective then the easiest way to have attained it wouldve have been to accept what linocln had offered before the seccession. The 13th ammendment proposed in 1860 looks very different from the one passed in 1865. The principal cause was economic but it was the import tariffs and not slavery which provoked it.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
"...as long as he stays Jim, the gentle janitor that lives down the street."
to me that just sounds like a comfort level. sometimes when people are in prison for a long period of time they get used to it, and even grow to like it compared to the outside world which seems scary and mean.
being originally from south texas--houston and corpus christi, tx. and having lived and experienced northeastern living in eastern pa./nj and ny i can say wholeheartedly i've encountered more racism in the north. wether that be by rednecks in little towns or hardhat union guys in places like philly or in queens, ny who vote democrat based on labor rights--yet seem to have little regards to race. i guess as texas is so large, however--i guess i don't know if corpus christi is typical of the 'south'--as it is mostly a mexican/hispanic population. cc has more to do with the southwest than the south. in that area of texas, they embrace what they call 'winter texans' however, i do vividly remember that when i was little, one of my older brothers friends turned enemies would yell out insults like, "where is your mothers green card?" (my mom is mexican indian--so my heritage is of mixed race).
so that was my experience with racism there.
up in the northeast-- i think it is hidden racism--or maybe it is classism -- like as in people that only stick to hip 'white' , upper class neighborhoods. people that assume than any minority area is 'bad'--people that always say, "i was surprised to see how INTELLIGENT that person was.' i'm as lefty as they come, and i've heard liberals say, "why would you want to be in a mostly black area?"
but the confederate flag is a terrible symbol. there is no positive heritage or meaning behind it. a lot of people try to defend it as 'states rights'. you know, if the nation were to have kept with states rights on every issue, we might be further back right now than where we were then.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
"...as long as he stays Jim, the gentle janitor that lives down the street."
to me that just sounds like a comfort level. sometimes when people are in prison for a long period of time they get used to it, and even grow to like it compared to the outside world which seems scary and mean.
Well, the gentleman who made that statement, Mr. Burl Wright, is college educated, had a six figure job here at my company where he supervised 120 people and now is a guest Preacher at various local churches each Sunday. He certainly doesn't fit the "Jim the Gentle Janitor" stereotype.
But next time I see him I'll let him know what his statement "really" means.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
I think this statement very truely reflects human nature in a lot of ways. Being a California native (and we all no there is no racism in CA. none.) I feel pretty disconnected from the mini civil war you guys have goin here... but, especially in southern Ca (where I'm from), there is a very similar situation going on with Mexican/hispanic people. even in the most yuppied out areas you are still very near the crushing poverty of migrant workers and all that. And while 85% of all people I've ever known out here I would consider racist (whether they are decent people otherwise or not) almost all of them are openly friendly to "the damn Mexicans". They work at the same jobs, shop at the same stores, etc... what esle are they gonna do? And as someone said of southern whites there is always "the exception"... IE my Dad who is very racist often genuinely really likes most of "the stupid Mexicans" he works with. He does not say it, but you can tell he does respect them as people when he knows them. But the abstract idea of these savages taking over his state scares him. dig it?
Just thought I'd throw in another perspective on the bigger picture here... carry on with your civil war recreations....
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
I think this statement very truely reflects human nature in a lot of ways. Being a California native (and we all no there is no racism in CA. none.) I feel pretty disconnected from the mini civil war you guys have goin here... but, especially in southern Ca (where I'm from), there is a very similar situation going on with Mexican/hispanic people. even in the most yuppied out areas you are still very near the crushing poverty of migrant workers and all that. And while 85% of all people I've ever known out here I would consider racist (whether they are decent people otherwise or not) almost all of them are openly friendly to "the damn Mexicans". They work at the same jobs, shop at the same stores, etc... what esle are they gonna do? And as someone said of southern whites there is always "the exception"... IE my Dad who is very racist often genuinely really likes most of "the stupid Mexicans" he works with. He does not say it, but you can tell he does respect them as people when he knows them. But the abstract idea of these savages taking over his state scares him. dig it?
Just thought I'd throw in another perspective on the bigger picture here... carry on with your civil war recreations....
So true. I work in (and live nearby) Monmouth County, NJ, one of the wealthiest areas in the country, in which super-rich towns like Deal and Rumson, butt up against extremely poor areas like Asbury Park and Long Branch. It's extremely depressing.
Get a spell check. Popular sovereignty of deciding whether or not slavery would expand into the territories, which goes hand in hand with states' rights was the impetus for the Civil War. So, the root cause is slavery's expansion. It's not an ancillary discussion. Import tariffs were an issue that were closely tied to states' rights.
I'm not going to listen to someone from Worcester, England tell me about American History, when:
A) He can't spell B) He discusses things that are not germane to the previous conversation in order to be a provocateur C) While claiming to be an expert, does not take all causes into consideration and puts forth an explanation that is self serving in furthering his role of Soulstrut agitator.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
I think this statement very truely reflects human nature in a lot of ways. Being a California native (and we all no there is no racism in CA. none.) I feel pretty disconnected from the mini civil war you guys have goin here... but, especially in southern Ca (where I'm from), there is a very similar situation going on with Mexican/hispanic people. even in the most yuppied out areas you are still very near the crushing poverty of migrant workers and all that. And while 85% of all people I've ever known out here I would consider racist (whether they are decent people otherwise or not) almost all of them are openly friendly to "the damn Mexicans". They work at the same jobs, shop at the same stores, etc... what esle are they gonna do? And as someone said of southern whites there is always "the exception"... IE my Dad who is very racist often genuinely really likes most of "the stupid Mexicans" he works with. He does not say it, but you can tell he does respect them as people when he knows them. But the abstract idea of these savages taking over his state scares him. dig it?
Just thought I'd throw in another perspective on the bigger picture here... carry on with your civil war recreations....
i, too, live in VA. my whole life (except for a few weeks here and there) has been split b/w Virginia and North Carolina.
i can't get with the confederate battle flag at all.
apparently, somewhere WAY down the line, somebody on my father's side fought for the CSA. still can't get with it. far too much on it - both historically and emotionally - to claim flying it today is just being proud of one's heritage. it's just not that simple.
the county i work in, a formerly-huge-plantation-now-subdivision-heavy area, has a high school named Lee-Davis High. guess what the mascot is? the fighting confederates.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
I think this statement very truely reflects human nature in a lot of ways. Being a California native (and we all no there is no racism in CA. none.) I feel pretty disconnected from the mini civil war you guys have goin here... but, especially in southern Ca (where I'm from), there is a very similar situation going on with Mexican/hispanic people. even in the most yuppied out areas you are still very near the crushing poverty of migrant workers and all that. And while 85% of all people I've ever known out here I would consider racist (whether they are decent people otherwise or not) almost all of them are openly friendly to "the damn Mexicans". They work at the same jobs, shop at the same stores, etc... what esle are they gonna do? And as someone said of southern whites there is always "the exception"... IE my Dad who is very racist often genuinely really likes most of "the stupid Mexicans" he works with. He does not say it, but you can tell he does respect them as people when he knows them. But the abstract idea of these savages taking over his state scares him. dig it?
Just thought I'd throw in another perspective on the bigger picture here... carry on with your civil war recreations....
This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw in Austin in the early 90s, at the height of the Malcolm X shirt/hat craze. It had a big confederate flag on it and said:
YOU WEAR YOUR X, I'LL WEAR MINE.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
The version of this shirt that I've seen is even worse. It has that "You wear your X" shit on the back. On the front, it has a picture of some Klansmen with the caption "Boyz In The Hood."
This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw in Austin in the early 90s, at the height of the Malcolm X shirt/hat craze. It had a big confederate flag on it and said:
YOU WEAR YOUR X, I'LL WEAR MINE.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
The version of this shirt that I've seen is even worse. It has that "You wear your X" shit on the back. On the front, it has a picture of some Klansmen with the caption "Boyz In The Hood."
Growing up in South Carolina, I could list 100 fucking similar t-shirts. It's sickening.
Comments
I caught all that. Just went off anyways. The rebel in me.
Can't really argue that point, "intertwined" being key for me.
I thought about this all the way home from work. I think what it comes down to, and Lord knows I may be wrong, is "stubbornness" more than anything. THe phenomenon of good, well-meaning people clinging to that flag. It remains a symbol for the region (sadly) and people don't want to let go of that even though many may have let go of the hatred their families passed down to them. To completely let loose of that flag for many would be yet another acquiescence to "the North". I'm not racist but I'm far, far from perfect and I know the reasoning I mentioned is the Devil's Advocate in my heart that tries to trick my brain that it is not right in thinking that all of the stuff you Yankees are saying is valid.
It may not, but goddamn that prior paragraph deserves a :5 pager: of its own.
Cool. No hard feelings. Sorry I called what you were trying to say "bullschitt"... about ten times.
Dude, take a trip to any flea market in the south. It will blow your mind.
off the top of my head:
T-Shirts: Big flag image w/caption "If this offends, you need a history lesson" and another with a flag flying over a cotton field w/caption "Made from 100% hand-picked cotton".
That was a huge controversy at my high-school in Mississippi. They ended up banning both Confederate Flag and Malcolm X t-shirts, and a redneck parent came to school and got in a fistfight with the (black) principal.
There are plenty of people for whom the rebel flag is a source of cultural pride that, to them, has little to do with race. But those people are wrong. I'm not going to say they are all racists, but the fact that it is so offensive to so many people trumps their pride, in my opinion.
-Dick Gregory
Of course. I do realize that the number of those who would rep that flag for ugly, ugly reaons is more than the few I've romanticized. I won't speculate as to what degree for fear of incurring Harvey's wrath. I've said too much and probably already been stripped of some credentials. 'Bout to go catch some crawdads. Holler.
Can you fucking read? I did not say it wasnt an issue I said it was relatively minor one. When you consider the northern states were prepared to allow slavery in the south to preserve the union and that later the southern states were prepared to abolish it to ensure independance I dont see how you can come to any other conclusion.
If the preservation of slavery was really their primary objective then the easiest way to have attained it wouldve have been to accept what linocln had offered before the seccession. The 13th ammendment proposed in 1860 looks very different from the one passed in 1865. The principal cause was economic but it was the import tariffs and not slavery which provoked it.
"...as long as he stays Jim, the gentle janitor that lives down the street."
to me that just sounds like a comfort level. sometimes when people are in prison for a long period of time they get used to it, and even grow to like it compared to the outside world which seems scary and mean.
wether that be by rednecks in little towns or hardhat union guys in places like philly or in queens, ny who vote democrat based on labor rights--yet seem to have little regards to race.
i guess as texas is so large, however--i guess i don't know if corpus christi is typical of the 'south'--as it is mostly a mexican/hispanic population. cc has more to do with the southwest than the south. in that area of texas, they embrace what they call 'winter texans'
however, i do vividly remember that when i was little, one of my older brothers friends turned enemies would yell out insults like, "where is your mothers green card?" (my mom is mexican indian--so my heritage is of mixed race).
so that was my experience with racism there.
up in the northeast-- i think it is hidden racism--or maybe it is classism -- like as in people that only stick to hip 'white' , upper class neighborhoods. people that assume than any minority area is 'bad'--people that always say, "i was surprised to see how INTELLIGENT that person was.'
i'm as lefty as they come, and i've heard liberals say, "why would you want to be in a mostly black area?"
but the confederate flag is a terrible symbol. there is no positive heritage or meaning behind it. a lot of people try to defend it as 'states rights'.
you know, if the nation were to have kept with states rights on every issue, we might be further back right now than where we were then.
Well, the gentleman who made that statement, Mr. Burl Wright, is college educated, had a six figure job here at my company where he supervised 120 people and now is a guest Preacher at various local churches each Sunday. He certainly doesn't fit the "Jim the Gentle Janitor" stereotype.
But next time I see him I'll let him know what his statement "really" means.
Thanks for clearing that up.
ban
we are not a state
we are a commonwealth
&
as southern as can be
(northern virginia is some other place)
just cause we are educated
doesn't mean we are not the real south
I think this statement very truely reflects human nature in a lot of ways. Being a California native (and we all no there is no racism in CA. none.) I feel pretty disconnected from the mini civil war you guys have goin here... but, especially in southern Ca (where I'm from), there is a very similar situation going on with Mexican/hispanic people. even in the most yuppied out areas you are still very near the crushing poverty of migrant workers and all that. And while 85% of all people I've ever known out here I would consider racist (whether they are decent people otherwise or not) almost all of them are openly friendly to "the damn Mexicans". They work at the same jobs, shop at the same stores, etc... what esle are they gonna do? And as someone said of southern whites there is always "the exception"... IE my Dad who is very racist often genuinely really likes most of "the stupid Mexicans" he works with. He does not say it, but you can tell he does respect them as people when he knows them. But the abstract idea of these savages taking over his state scares him. dig it?
Just thought I'd throw in another perspective on the bigger picture here... carry on with your civil war recreations....
So true. I work in (and live nearby) Monmouth County, NJ, one of the wealthiest areas in the country, in which super-rich towns like Deal and Rumson, butt up against extremely poor areas like Asbury Park and Long Branch. It's extremely depressing.
Get a spell check.
Popular sovereignty of deciding whether or not slavery would expand into the territories, which goes hand in hand with states' rights was the impetus for the Civil War. So, the root cause is slavery's expansion. It's not an ancillary discussion. Import tariffs were an issue that were closely tied to states' rights.
I'm not going to listen to someone from Worcester, England tell me about American History, when:
A) He can't spell
B) He discusses things that are not germane to the previous conversation in order to be a provocateur
C) While claiming to be an expert, does not take all causes into consideration and puts forth an explanation that is self serving in furthering his role of Soulstrut agitator.
Talk about records or get the fuck out.
is this something "steppers" do?
Whoah! Crink has a "dad"!?
i can't get with the confederate battle flag at all.
apparently, somewhere WAY down the line, somebody on my father's side fought for the CSA. still can't get with it. far too much on it - both historically and emotionally - to claim flying it today is just being proud of one's heritage. it's just not that simple.
the county i work in, a formerly-huge-plantation-now-subdivision-heavy area, has a high school named Lee-Davis High. guess what the mascot is? the fighting confederates.
my world has just been reshaped
The version of this shirt that I've seen is even worse. It has that "You wear your X" shit on the back. On the front, it has a picture of some Klansmen with the caption "Boyz In The Hood."
Growing up in South Carolina, I could list 100 fucking similar t-shirts. It's sickening.