HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
It's just the easiest way to illustrate that to many in the South, the Confederate flag symbolizes many prideful things that have little to do with either racism or slavery.
It's just the easiest way to illustrate that to many in the South, the Confederate flag symbolizes many prideful things that have little to do with either racism or slavery.
But of course, all of you Yankees know better.
You're mistaken on a number of levels.
First and foremost, you are not the lone fucking voice of the South on this board. Get off that. For real.
Second, I can find an anecdote to support any contention. Sure there are some black folks into historical role playing and romantic antebellum imagery (I just puked a little), but how close are they to a significant percentage of the larger population?
It's just the easiest way to illustrate that to many in the South, the Confederate flag symbolizes many prideful things that have little to do with either racism or slavery.
But of course, all of you Yankees know better.
You're mistaken on a number of levels.
First and foremost, you are not the lone fucking voice of the South on this board. Get off that. For real.
He is the lone authentic voice of the South on this board, though--you and me are just scalawags.
I'm currently living in Nashville and work for a bunch of "south will rise again" follk
let's not forget how close you live to the riduculous cartoon statue of former KKK-leader nathaniel bedford forrest.
It's really a site to be seen when they have all the flag poles representing Harvey's new black power symbol.
one of my most chilling moments when driving from Nashville to Chatanooga was passing by that abomination
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I'm gonna go ahead and assume that y'all are currently petitioning to have the faces and names of slaveowners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson removed from all US currency. And don't forget how many names of municipalities that will need to be changed while y'all politically-correct crusaders are at it.
And any so-called Southerner who goes as far as putting a deposit down on a New York apartment...
I'd just be curious to know how many people making all these cultural assumptions were born in the South, raised in the South and spent more than 80% of their years in the South. There is some level of nuance here that might not be able to be picked up on from +1000 miles away.
Virginia is a marginally "Southern" state IMHO. Too much Yankee influence.
I'm real conflicted on the Confederate Flag thing, but I tend towards thinking if the symbology is so powerful and widely held to be offensive, it's probably best to allow for the feelings of one's national brethren. I do find some of the broader assumptions being made about the South to be bothersome though.
Texas would shortly become a 3rd-world republic were it to secede.
Plus, if they followed the original plan, they'd break into five smaller states. And you know Texas doesn't wanna be smaller. (As a Texan myself, I'm still pissed about Alaska. Make it spend a summer in Texas and let some of that ice melt, we'll see how big it really is.)
Maybe Arlington. But come the fuck on. I drive past the fucking "Confederate Whitehouse" everyday--which is brown btw.
I was born and raised in Charleston, SC and now I live in Richmond, VA. Sorry, but you can't get more "connected" to the Confederacy than that.
Sure, the Yankees misunderstand our subtle genteel form of racism. Whatever. The outcome is the same: oppression of the upward mobility of descendants of former slaves--which the Confederate battle flag has come to represent quite well. Sorry.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The outcome is the same: oppression of the upward mobility of descendants of former slaves--which the United States of America flag[/b] has come to represent quite well.
I'd just be curious to know how many people making all these cultural assumptions were born in the South, raised in the South and spent more than 80% of their years in the South. There is some level of nuance here that might not be able to be picked up on from +1000 miles away.
Virginia is a marginally "Southern" state IMHO. Too much Yankee influence.
I'm real conflicted on the Confederate Flag thing, but I tend towards thinking if the symbology is so powerful and widely held to be offensive, it's probably best to allow for the feelings of one's national brethren. I do find some of the broader assumptions being made about the South to be bothersome though.
LOL at this bullschitt--there are no "nuances" to grasp when it comes to the rebel flag.
It's racist and it's wrong and I suspect anyone that disagrees--with the limited exception of people reappropriating it for anti-racist purposes--of being a racist themselves. This is not one of those issues where there are multiple sides.
I say that as a born and raised Southerner. But hey--I only spent 79.31% of my life there, so I guess I fall just short of the threshold required to have a valid perspective on the subject.
(As a Texan myself, I'm still pissed about Alaska. Make it spend a summer in Texas and let some of that ice melt, we'll see how big it really is.)
C'mon, Hawg. It's not the size of the state, it's the...erm...OK, I can't come up with a funny way to finish that statement, but you know what I'm saying.
I'd just be curious to know how many people making all these cultural assumptions were born in the South, raised in the South and spent more than 80% of their years in the South. There is some level of nuance here that might not be able to be picked up on from +1000 miles away.
Virginia is a marginally "Southern" state IMHO. Too much Yankee influence.
I'm real conflicted on the Confederate Flag thing, but I tend towards thinking if the symbology is so powerful and widely held to be offensive, it's probably best to allow for the feelings of one's national brethren. I do find some of the broader assumptions being made about the South to be bothersome though.
LOL at this bullschitt--there are no "nuances" to grasp when it comes to the rebel flag.
It's racist and it's wrong and I suspect anyone that disagrees--with the limited exception of people reappropriating it for anti-racist purposes--of being a racist themselves. This is not one of those issues where there are multiple sides.
I say that as a born and raised Southerner. But hey--I only spent 79.31% of my life there, so I guess I fall just short of the threshold required to have a valid perspective on the subject.
There's really no need to get so vitriolic. I'm just sharing what I've experienced. I didn't say that anyone's heritage disqualified them from anything, just said I'd be curious to know. A lot of people making a lot of strong and (to them) righteous statements and I'm just wondering which ones are Southerners and which aren't. I completely respect your take even though I may disagree with it on a few levels. But I guess I shoulda left my "bullschitt" untyped.
People cling to symbols for what are (to them) noble reasons without contemplating the larger impact. I understand this thinking (and I do know a few "Confederate Flag" heads) but like I said, in the end, I think the broader harmony is most important.
Maybe Arlington. But come the fuck on. I drive past the fucking "Confederate Whitehouse" everyday--which is brown btw.
I was born and raised in Charleston, SC and now I live in Richmond, VA. Sorry, but you can't get more "connected" to the Confederacy than that.
Sure, the Yankees misunderstand our subtle genteel form of racism. Whatever. The outcome is the same: oppression of the upward mobility of descendants of former slaves--which the Confederate battle flag has come to represent quite well. Sorry.
Y'know the "grin" I put in there was to indicate I was joking. That comment was completely for you, Fatback.
And you got it twisted. The subtle, genteel racism is the *other* side of the Mason-Dixon. We have the racism that is "Magnifique!" as D. Chappelle put it.
I'd just be curious to know how many people making all these cultural assumptions were born in the South, raised in the South and spent more than 80% of their years in the South. There is some level of nuance here that might not be able to be picked up on from +1000 miles away.
Virginia is a marginally "Southern" state IMHO. Too much Yankee influence.
I'm real conflicted on the Confederate Flag thing, but I tend towards thinking if the symbology is so powerful and widely held to be offensive, it's probably best to allow for the feelings of one's national brethren. I do find some of the broader assumptions being made about the South to be bothersome though.
LOL at this bullschitt--there are no "nuances" to grasp when it comes to the rebel flag.
It's racist and it's wrong and I suspect anyone that disagrees--with the limited exception of people reappropriating it for anti-racist purposes--of being a racist themselves. This is not one of those issues where there are multiple sides.
I say that as a born and raised Southerner. But hey--I only spent 79.31% of my life there, so I guess I fall just short of the threshold required to have a valid perspective on the subject.
There's really no need to get so vitriolic. I'm just sharing what I've experienced. I didn't say that anyone's heritage disqualified them from anything, just said I'd be curious to know. A lot of people making a lot of strong and (to them) righteous statements and I'm just wondering which ones are Southerners and which aren't. I completely respect your take even though I may disagree with it on a few levels. But I guess I shoulda left my "bullschitt" untyped.
People cling to symbols for what are (to them) noble reasons without contemplating the larger impact. I understand this thinking (and I do know a few "Confederate Flag" heads) but like I said, in the end, I think the broader harmony is most important.
I'm not annoyed at you for speculating that I or others may lack the life experience to justify our positions. I'm annoyed that the "heritage not hatred" argument, which is such transparent bullschitt, continues to hold currency with anyone anywhere.
I respect people that are upfront about their racism more than I respect anybody that parrots that line.
I'm gonna go ahead and assume that y'all are currently petitioning to have the faces and names of slaveowners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson removed from all US currency. And don't forget how many names of municipalities that will need to be changed while y'all politically-correct crusaders are at it.
And any so-called Southerner who goes as far as putting a deposit down on a New York apartment...
I like how because we are talking about the south you have now adapted a southern drawl to your writing style. Nice touch!
I do have to disagree with your stance. having lived a few years in the south, travelled throughout it, talked to people from both sides of the tracks and all backgrounds, most people have no real attachment or motivation for the flag staying around publicly.
I guess what it comes down to for me in the end is a people thing. Like I said, I know cats that would ride hard for that flag that aren't necessarily "racists" and it's them I think about when I make an "annoying" statement such as I have. I guess I'm trying to see the best in people I know and largely respect. Let it be known I work with and around a good amount of "good ol' boys".
Let's be clear here, I'm not looking to validate anyone's opinion. I'm looking for perspective. I try to see all sides, and I do tend to look for what positives there are to be found.
I was born and raised in NYC, stereotypically the most Yankeefied place you can be from.
I've now spent half of my life below the Mason-Dixon Line and have a pretty good grasp of both places.
An older black gentleman I used to work with(he's now retired)used to give me shit about coming from the "racist North"..... he explained that he had lived in various northern states and always felt a lot more comfortable in places like Atlanta, Memphis and Dallas than he did in NYC, Philly and especially Boston.
I'll never forget the statement he made when comparing the North vs. South in regards to racism.
Before I type it out I must say that this isn't MY statement and I'm not going to defend the statement or argue with any of you about it.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
That really made me think and I certainly understood where he was coming from.
So before any of you get real defensive and start blabbering I suggest you also think about how this was simply one southern black man's opinion and try to put it into perspective.
I guess what it comes down to for me in the end is a people thing. Like I said, I know cats that would ride hard for that flag that aren't necessarily "racists" and it's them I think about when I make an "annoying" statement such as I have. I guess I'm trying to see the best in people I know and largely respect. Let it be known I work with and around a good amount of "good ol' boys".
Let's be clear here, I'm not looking to validate anyone's opinion. I'm looking for perspective. I try to see all sides, and I do tend to look for what positives there are to be found.
One can acknowledge that someone is a racist and still look for the best in them--you'd pretty much have to resign yourself to living in a closet somewhere otherwise since most people are, to some degree, racists. People are complex creatures and we all have our prejudices.
What I'm saying is this: no justification that is not intertwined with racism exists for an attachment to the rebel flag. People who talk that "heritage not hatred" or "pride not prejudice" trash want to have their cake and eat it too. Want to continue to nourish their prejudices privately while not facing up to the social opprobrium that comes with being an acknowledged racist. I think that's disgusting, and I have marginally more respect for a racist that acknowledges where they stand than for one that refuses to own up to their convictions.
That stupid book about Da Vinci keeps trying to make the point that symbols have "true" meanings that many people don't understand. A symbol means what people want it to mean. The confederate flag is only a symbol of heritage for some. Those people need to think what that heritage means. Does it mean racism, slavery and secession? That is certainly what it means to me.
By the way, my friends from the South did not learn about the revolutionary war in school. They learned about the war of Northern Aggression. That people like Dolo are filled with ignorance is not surprising.
I was born and raised in NYC, stereotypically the most Yankeefied place you can be from.
I've now spent half of my life below the Mason-Dixon Line and have a pretty good grasp of both places.
An older black gentleman I used to work with(he's now retired)used to give me shit about coming from the "racist North"..... he explained that he had lived in various northern states and always felt a lot more comfortable in places like Atlanta, Memphis and Dallas than he did in NYC, Philly and especially Boston.
I'll never forget the statement he made when comparing the North vs. South in regards to racism.
Before I type it out I must say that this isn't MY statement and I'm not going to defend the statement or argue with any of you about it.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
That really made me think and I certainly understood where he was coming from.
So before any of you get real defensive and start blabbering I suggest you also think about how this was simply one southern black man's opinion and try to put it into perspective.
I agree with that to a large degree--in general, there is a lot more contact across racial lines in the South and, in some ways, this familiarity translates to a greater respect for one another as people, in spite of the vocabulary, the symbols and the politics.
A lot of white Northerners will pat themselves on the back for being more sophisticated and accepting than their cousins in the South, when the truth is that their own racism rarely has occasion to emerge solely because they have structured their lives in such a way that they barely ever have any contact with Black people.
But none of this really has anything to do with the fact that anybody making excuses for the rebel flag is dead wrong.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b] I saw this often in when I lived in Oklahoma. Openly racist Whites would have a Black friend/neighbor who that would treat with respect and dignity. Both Black and White were comfortable when they interacted. If you asked them about the conflict they would explain that their friend was an exception and not like others.
Every time I see a sticker that says, "It's about heritage, not hate," I wanna cover up the little rebel flag with a picture of a noose.
This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw in Austin in the early 90s, at the height of the Malcolm X shirt/hat craze. It had a big confederate flag on it and said:
Comments
Wow. You just spent 20 minutes searching for pictures of Black dudes holding the confederate flag. Hope that was fulfilling.
But of course, all of you Yankees know better.
You're mistaken on a number of levels.
First and foremost, you are not the lone fucking voice of the South on this board. Get off that. For real.
Second, I can find an anecdote to support any contention. Sure there are some black folks into historical role playing and romantic antebellum imagery (I just puked a little), but how close are they to a significant percentage of the larger population?
He is the lone authentic voice of the South on this board, though--you and me are just scalawags.
let's not forget how close you live to the riduculous cartoon statue of former KKK-leader nathaniel bedford forrest.
It's really a site to be seen when they have all the flag poles representing Harvey's new black power symbol.
one of my most chilling moments when driving from Nashville to Chatanooga was passing by that abomination
And any so-called Southerner who goes as far as putting a deposit down on a New York apartment...
Harvey--for or against?
Virginia is a marginally "Southern" state IMHO. Too much Yankee influence.
I'm real conflicted on the Confederate Flag thing, but I tend towards thinking if the symbology is so powerful and widely held to be offensive, it's probably best to allow for the feelings of one's national brethren. I do find some of the broader assumptions being made about the South to be bothersome though.
Plus, if they followed the original plan, they'd break into five smaller states. And you know Texas doesn't wanna be smaller. (As a Texan myself, I'm still pissed about Alaska. Make it spend a summer in Texas and let some of that ice melt, we'll see how big it really is.)
Maybe Arlington. But come the fuck on. I drive past the fucking "Confederate Whitehouse" everyday--which is brown btw.
I was born and raised in Charleston, SC and now I live in Richmond, VA. Sorry, but you can't get more "connected" to the Confederacy than that.
Sure, the Yankees misunderstand our subtle genteel form of racism. Whatever. The outcome is the same: oppression of the upward mobility of descendants of former slaves--which the Confederate battle flag has come to represent quite well. Sorry.
LOL at this bullschitt--there are no "nuances" to grasp when it comes to the rebel flag.
It's racist and it's wrong and I suspect anyone that disagrees--with the limited exception of people reappropriating it for anti-racist purposes--of being a racist themselves. This is not one of those issues where there are multiple sides.
I say that as a born and raised Southerner. But hey--I only spent 79.31% of my life there, so I guess I fall just short of the threshold required to have a valid perspective on the subject.
C'mon, Hawg. It's not the size of the state, it's the...erm...OK, I can't come up with a funny way to finish that statement, but you know what I'm saying.
There's really no need to get so vitriolic. I'm just sharing what I've experienced. I didn't say that anyone's heritage disqualified them from anything, just said I'd be curious to know. A lot of people making a lot of strong and (to them) righteous statements and I'm just wondering which ones are Southerners and which aren't. I completely respect your take even though I may disagree with it on a few levels. But I guess I shoulda left my "bullschitt" untyped.
People cling to symbols for what are (to them) noble reasons without contemplating the larger impact. I understand this thinking (and I do know a few "Confederate Flag" heads) but like I said, in the end, I think the broader harmony is most important.
Y'know the "grin" I put in there was to indicate I was joking. That comment was completely for you, Fatback.
And you got it twisted. The subtle, genteel racism is the *other* side of the Mason-Dixon. We have the racism that is "Magnifique!" as D. Chappelle put it.
I'm not annoyed at you for speculating that I or others may lack the life experience to justify our positions. I'm annoyed that the "heritage not hatred" argument, which is such transparent bullschitt, continues to hold currency with anyone anywhere.
I respect people that are upfront about their racism more than I respect anybody that parrots that line.
I like how because we are talking about the south you have now adapted a southern drawl to your writing style. Nice touch!
I do have to disagree with your stance. having lived a few years in the south, travelled throughout it, talked to people from both sides of the tracks and all backgrounds, most people have no real attachment or motivation for the flag staying around publicly.
Let's be clear here, I'm not looking to validate anyone's opinion. I'm looking for perspective. I try to see all sides, and I do tend to look for what positives there are to be found.
I've now spent half of my life below the Mason-Dixon Line and have a pretty good grasp of both places.
An older black gentleman I used to work with(he's now retired)used to give me shit about coming from the "racist North"..... he explained that he had lived in various northern states and always felt a lot more comfortable in places like Atlanta, Memphis and Dallas than he did in NYC, Philly and especially Boston.
I'll never forget the statement he made when comparing the North vs. South in regards to racism.
Before I type it out I must say that this isn't MY statement and I'm not going to defend the statement or argue with any of you about it.
He said "In the North they embrace the race, but hate the man. In the South they hate the race, but embrace the man".[/b]
That really made me think and I certainly understood where he was coming from.
So before any of you get real defensive and start blabbering I suggest you also think about how this was simply one southern black man's opinion and try to put it into perspective.
One can acknowledge that someone is a racist and still look for the best in them--you'd pretty much have to resign yourself to living in a closet somewhere otherwise since most people are, to some degree, racists. People are complex creatures and we all have our prejudices.
What I'm saying is this: no justification that is not intertwined with racism exists for an attachment to the rebel flag. People who talk that "heritage not hatred" or "pride not prejudice" trash want to have their cake and eat it too. Want to continue to nourish their prejudices privately while not facing up to the social opprobrium that comes with being an acknowledged racist. I think that's disgusting, and I have marginally more respect for a racist that acknowledges where they stand than for one that refuses to own up to their convictions.
^^^^
Maryland stand up.
That stupid book about Da Vinci keeps trying to make the point that symbols have "true" meanings that many people don't understand. A symbol means what people want it to mean. The confederate flag is only a symbol of heritage for some. Those people need to think what that heritage means. Does it mean racism, slavery and secession? That is certainly what it means to me.
By the way, my friends from the South did not learn about the revolutionary war in school. They learned about the war of Northern Aggression. That people like Dolo are filled with ignorance is not surprising.
I agree with that to a large degree--in general, there is a lot more contact across racial lines in the South and, in some ways, this familiarity translates to a greater respect for one another as people, in spite of the vocabulary, the symbols and the politics.
A lot of white Northerners will pat themselves on the back for being more sophisticated and accepting than their cousins in the South, when the truth is that their own racism rarely has occasion to emerge solely because they have structured their lives in such a way that they barely ever have any contact with Black people.
But none of this really has anything to do with the fact that anybody making excuses for the rebel flag is dead wrong.
I saw this often in when I lived in Oklahoma. Openly racist Whites would have a Black friend/neighbor who that would treat with respect and dignity. Both Black and White were comfortable when they interacted. If you asked them about the conflict they would explain that their friend was an exception and not like others.
This thread reminds me of a T-shirt I saw in Austin in the early 90s, at the height of the Malcolm X shirt/hat craze. It had a big confederate flag on it and said:
YOU WEAR YOUR X, I'LL WEAR MINE.
I think that pretty much sums it up.