well obviously if you're a history buff or doing a Civil War re-enactment or something, using a confederate flag is appropriate. That's entirely different than painting it on the roof of your barn (which exists in Ohio, which was a northern fucking state!) or putting a "the south will rise again" bumper sticker on your F-150. i don't think it should be wiped out of history books or we should pretend it never existed, but to fly it in 2006 as some sort of "southern pride" bullshit is fucking racist.
The inanimate object of a symbol or flag can not be "racist" although it can certainly be used as a tool of racism....
I agree, which is why I said "TO FLY IT in 2006 as some sort of 'southern pride' bullshit is fucking racist."
it's really interesting that people here think there's some "other" to the condfed flag. I seriously doubt there's much debate in Germany as to what a Swastika flag means even to those who rock it.
True story - I'm flying to Orlando to visit the fam sitting next to a dude who's going there for this huge Civil war reenactment. He's trying to convince me of all the pride issues and telling me of blacks who fought for the south. At my boiling point, I ask "Can I be the nigger that fucks your women while you're losing???" Not another word the rest of the flight.
Fuck them. The South has the most bustling economy job-market wise in the US, barring Las Vegas. Here's a fact some might enjoy:
The US takes $21 BILLION in taxes from New York State, which as of early 2000s, as a state was the 8th largest economy in the world[/b] (US, China, India, UK, etc... NY State). How much of that tax money reaches back to NY State? About $3 billion (probably more since 9/11, but NY is getting bent over the woodshed on that one too). Where does it all go? The South. Where have all US businesses fled to run away from Northern taxes? The South. If they're crying about the economy, people can go fuck themselves. People are struggling hawrd up here. Job market in the South, decent. Job market in the North,
*Disclaimer: Not hating on the South, hating on people saying they have it bad when they don't.
the notion that the american civil was was some grand ideological struggle over slavery is a classic case of the victors writing history. To quote lincoln:
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."
Slavery was an incidental matter to both parties as proved by lincolns pre war offer to protect the institution of slavery where it was currently legal and the confederate cabinets later promise to abolish slavery in return of recognition from britain and france. If the unionists were willing to accept the practice of slavery to preserve the union and the confederates were willing to abolish slavery in order to attain independance then how can it realistically be claimed that slavery was the pivotal issue? The true principal cause of the secession was the belief of the southern states that import tarrifs were in effect a means to support northern business interests at their expense since the south imported far more produce than the north and much of the revenue raised was ploughed into northern states. The emancipation proclaimation came about as the result of trying to curry the favour of britain and france during the civil war(as the confederates had belatedly tried to do with their promise to abolish slavery).
If you are trying to say that slavery, which was permanently entwined with popular sovereignty, was not an issue of the Civil War, you are an even bigger moron than I already assumed you to be. Talk about music for once or get the fuck off the board you dickhead. Nobody was talking about this shit in this thread.
Slavery was an incidental matter to both parties as proved by lincolns pre war offer to protect the institution of slavery where it was currently legal and the confederate cabinets later promise to abolish slavery in return of recognition from britain and france. If the unionists were willing to accept the practice of slavery to preserve the union and the confederates were willing to abolish slavery in order to attain independance then how can it realistically be claimed that slavery was the pivotal issue?
The South wouldn't accept this. They felt that States' Rights to choose superseded Federal law because slavery was in their best financial interest.[/b]
NuSouth shirts. *Disclaimer: Not hating on the South, hating on people saying they have it bad when they don't.
why are nusouth shirts weaksauce? This company was established in Charleston, SC. The cradle of the Confederacy. The hub of all North American African slave trade. For a minute (~1999?) every black person in the area had a nusouth front plate or sticker on their car. And I'll tell you, it drove the rebel flag people fucking nuts. It was genius IMO taking that symbol and changing it slightly to create new meaning. I'm not sure where this company is now. Heard they moved to ATL and went under.
My issue with NuSouth paraphernalia is that with the effort put into them, what good do they do besides irritate the rebel flag folks?
It's on a similar level to the push for the word n****r to be so freely used that it would eventually be diassociated from it's constructed derogatory meaning.
There are so many other battles to fight; why waste time with the ones above?
Yes, I have actually, quite frequently. Availability of technical/professional jobs available in the South is skyrocketing, while in the North, those jobs are fleeing to the South. This is what I was getting at more than unemployment rates. I'm not denying unemployment rates, those are right on the money. This also doesn't take into account that certain parts of states (Upstate NY and Western NY where I'm at right now included) percentage-wise FAR exceed that rate of unemployment for the whole state.
There is a "interpretative" middle ground though rather than the knee-jerk, "that's racist" graemlin: The South is a really different place. They got their own language and state of mind. Some of that includes being totally desensitized to the meaning that the flag conjures up for many people in the North. That's not to say that some people don't fly it with racist intention. Obviously some people do. Nor am I justifying it. I'm just playing devil's advocate: Some people mean for it to represent southern pride. Some people are still pissed at the North and feel like the South is still economically underserved by the governement and would prefer to secede. New Orleans might be an example of that.
I'm from the South and this is all bullschitt.
The Confderate flag does not represent any of the aspects of Southern identity that one might legitimately take pride in.
It represents racism and--as has already been pointed out--anti-American sentiment and very little else.
NuSouth shirts. *Disclaimer: Not hating on the South, hating on people saying they have it bad when they don't.
why are nusouth shirts weaksauce? This company was established in Charleston, SC. The cradle of the Confederacy. The hub of all North American African slave trade. For a minute (~1999?) every black person in the area had a nusouth front plate or sticker on their car. And I'll tell you, it drove the rebel flag people fucking nuts. It was genius IMO taking that symbol and changing it slightly to create new meaning. I'm not sure where this company is now. Heard they moved to ATL and went under.
My issue with NuSouth paraphernalia is that with the effort put into them, what good do they do besides irritate the rebel flag folks?
It's on a similar level to the push for the word n****r to be so freely used that it would eventually be diassociated from it's constructed derogatory meaning.
There are so many other battles to fight; why waste time with the ones above?
I don't know about the n word usage. I will never do that. Just not my place.
I did sport a nusouth shirt around the south. Had old black women stop me with compliments and ask me where I got it. While the white folks would give me the ice grill.
I'm in favor of slightly shifting imagery to steal part of its meaning and, in turn, diffuse it and make fun of it.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Man, ya'll are some culture bashing muthafuckas.
Of course the Confederate flag means much, much more than just racism.
It's kinda sad that so many of you are so quick to forget that:
1. Much of the North was openly complicit to a nationwide system of slavery prior to the Civil War.
and 2. When the North invaded the South, plundering as it went, the abolition of slavery was hardly their reason for doing so.
What a bunch of hypocritical, high-and-mighty punks the North produces.
It wasn't enough to fill your pirate coffers and salvage your precious you-do-the-work-and-we'll-oversee-the-proceeds Union. You've gotta use your trumped up moral high ground to attempt to reduce anyone who disagrees with you about anything whatsoever to be at the very least symbolically obliterated.
Maybe if you took your own advice, you'd be thinking of how much an American flag potentially offends the Natives of this land, let alone all those wordwide who have suffered under the brunt of American corporo-imperialism.
Y'all purchased the whole of Manhattan for a chipped Leo Sayer raer, and y'all want to talk to us about fuckin racism.
Maybe if you took your own advice, you'd be thinking of how much an American flag potentially offends the Natives of this land, let alone all those wordwide who have suffered under the brunt of American corporo-imperialism.
Y'all purchased the whole of Manhattan for a chipped Leo Sayer raer, and y'all want to talk to us about fuckin racism.
Carpetbaggeurs be gone.
HC - you are totally correct. the US Flag isn't some ish to be super proud of, but to me - the C-fed flag is the greater of two evils in that it's seemingly flown by people with a more blurred vision of where we're at today. and my opinion of that flag may blurry because I'm currently living in Nashville and work for a bunch of "south will rise again" follk. So I'll grant you that I'm biased, but not in favor of the American flag. They're all bullshit & opressive.
Fuck them. The South has the most bustling economy job-market wise in the US, barring Las Vegas. Here's a fact some might enjoy:
The US takes $21 BILLION in taxes from New York State, which as of early 2000s, as a state was the 8th largest economy in the world[/b] (US, China, India, UK, etc... NY State). How much of that tax money reaches back to NY State? About $3 billion (probably more since 9/11, but NY is getting bent over the woodshed on that one too). Where does it all go? The South. Where have all US businesses fled to run away from Northern taxes? The South. If they're crying about the economy, people can go fuck themselves. People are struggling hawrd up here. Job market in the South, decent. Job market in the North,
*Disclaimer: Not hating on the South, hating on people saying they have it bad when they don't.
right back
have you ever been in the south?
Unemployment
Arkansas 5.3% in Aug 2006
Kentucky 5.8% in Aug 2006
Mississippi 7.1% in Aug 2006
South Carolina 6.5% in Aug 2006
Tennessee 5.7% in Aug 2006
Texas 5.1% in Aug 2006
West Virginia 5.9% in Aug 2006
New York 4.7% in Aug 2006
Michigan Unemployment Rate August 2006 7.1%
the Big 3 and the UAW have all shot themselves in the foot, but that's a whole other thread.
I don't think that anybody still believes that the North fought the Civil war in order to "free the slaves"--at least I hope that nobody remains under that misconception.
At the same time, acknowledging that the Union's motives were self-interested does not mean that retaining the right to hold slaves was not one of the Confederacy's chief motivations in succeeding.
In Shied's mindgarden, pointing out Northern racism somehow renders Southern racism nonexistent.
Of course the Confederate flag means much, much more than just racism.
Totally. I was having this same talk the other day. These Jews were all on my dick for wearing a shirt with this on it. I'm like, don't ya'll know that the swastika means much much more than Nazism. I like to express my love for eating rice with my hands and making my own yogurt.
The "Confederate Flag" as it has come to be called is the battle flag of the Confederate Navy, also known as the Confederate Navy Jack. Therefore it's hard to compare it to the American Flag.
Also, I was fairly shocked to see HarveyCanal make the time-worn argument of the the entire South as a victim to Northern aggression. Don't forget that the Southern states seceded and attacked the North. And read a book if you don't think slavery was a huge part of why that happened.
It's racist, unless you're not from America (British rockabilly types, for example) in which case it's ignorant first, and racist second. What's up with this thread being so long? Everybody knows there are no racists in Cali.....
It's racist, unless you're not from America (British rockabilly types, for example) in which case it's ignorant first, and racist second.
The dude who picked us up from the airport in Munich had a Confederate flag in the back dash of his muscle car. I figured it was on some ignorant shit, whereas Cosmo says in Germany it is a substitute for a swastika. This guy's boss was Jewish though, so I dunno...
In Shied's mindgarden, pointing out Northern racism somehow renders Southern racism nonexistent.
HC is the Austin/ Bay Area/ South Central/ New Orleans General Lee.
The real hip-hop shall rise again!
oh and my 2 cents - any representation of a flag that carries a symbolic message of pro-slavery/ inequality is pretty bullshit to represent. You'll never catch a Jew rocking a Nazi symbol no matter what fun funky colors are used to make it look "cool"
I don't think that anybody still believes that the North fought the Civil war in order to "free the slaves"--at least I hope that nobody remains under that misconception.
At the same time, acknowledging that the Union's motives were self-interested does not mean that retaining the right to hold slaves was not one of the Confederacy's chief motivations in succeeding.
In Shied's mindgarden, pointing out Northern racism somehow renders Southern racism nonexistent.
I don't think that anybody still believes that the North fought the Civil war in order to "free the slaves"--at least I hope that nobody remains under that misconception.
At the same time, acknowledging that the Union's motives were self-interested does not mean that retaining the right to hold slaves was not one of the Confederacy's chief motivations in succeeding.
In Shied's mindgarden, pointing out Northern racism somehow renders Southern racism nonexistent.
You'll never catch a Jew rocking a Nazi symbol no matter what fun funky colors are used to make it look "cool"
I dunno about that. Malcolm McClaren sold plenty of Swastika imagery through his shops not sure he ever wore one though.
Sadly, I think you're right. If it hasn't already, Holocaust Irony will become cool at some point
And I guearantee you Vice will be at the forefront of the movement. Because it'd be, like, so hip and ironic! And they could do a whole article about Holocaust jokes Dos & Don'ts!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Comments
I agree, which is why I said "TO FLY IT in 2006 as some sort of 'southern pride' bullshit is fucking racist."
I will amend my statement to, the only monumnet on monument avenue that doesn't suck ass.
True story - I'm flying to Orlando to visit the fam sitting next to a dude who's going there for this huge Civil war reenactment. He's trying to convince me of all the pride issues and telling me of blacks who fought for the south. At my boiling point, I ask "Can I be the nigger that fucks your women while you're losing???" Not another word the rest of the flight.
have you ever been in the south?
Unemployment
Arkansas
5.3% in Aug 2006
Kentucky
5.8% in Aug 2006
Mississippi
7.1% in Aug 2006
South Carolina
6.5% in Aug 2006
Tennessee
5.7% in Aug 2006
Texas
5.1% in Aug 2006
West Virginia
5.9% in Aug 2006
New York
4.7% in Aug 2006
If you are trying to say that slavery, which was permanently entwined with popular sovereignty, was not an issue of the Civil War, you are an even bigger moron than I already assumed you to be. Talk about music for once or get the fuck off the board you dickhead. Nobody was talking about this shit in this thread.
The South wouldn't accept this. They felt that States' Rights to choose superseded Federal law because slavery was in their best financial interest.[/b]
My issue with NuSouth paraphernalia is that with the effort put into them, what good do they do besides irritate the rebel flag folks?
It's on a similar level to the push for the word n****r to be so freely used that it would eventually be diassociated from it's constructed derogatory meaning.
There are so many other battles to fight; why waste time with the ones above?
Looking forward to meeting you next week.
I'm from the South and this is all bullschitt.
The Confderate flag does not represent any of the aspects of Southern identity that one might legitimately take pride in.
It represents racism and--as has already been pointed out--anti-American sentiment and very little else.
There's really nothing else to say about it.
I don't know about the n word usage. I will never do that. Just not my place.
I did sport a nusouth shirt around the south. Had old black women stop me with compliments and ask me where I got it. While the white folks would give me the ice grill.
I'm in favor of slightly shifting imagery to steal part of its meaning and, in turn, diffuse it and make fun of it.
Like those NSK dudes did with fascist crap. http://www.laibach.nsk.si/
Of course the Confederate flag means much, much more than just racism.
It's kinda sad that so many of you are so quick to forget that:
1. Much of the North was openly complicit to a nationwide system of slavery prior to the Civil War.
and 2. When the North invaded the South, plundering as it went, the abolition of slavery was hardly their reason for doing so.
What a bunch of hypocritical, high-and-mighty punks the North produces.
It wasn't enough to fill your pirate coffers and salvage your precious you-do-the-work-and-we'll-oversee-the-proceeds Union. You've gotta use your trumped up moral high ground to attempt to reduce anyone who disagrees with you about anything whatsoever to be at the very least symbolically obliterated.
Maybe if you took your own advice, you'd be thinking of how much an American flag potentially offends the Natives of this land, let alone all those wordwide who have suffered under the brunt of American corporo-imperialism.
Y'all purchased the whole of Manhattan for a chipped Leo Sayer raer, and y'all want to talk to us about fuckin racism.
Carpetbaggeurs be gone.
HC - you are totally correct. the US Flag isn't some ish to be super proud of, but to me - the C-fed flag is the greater of two evils in that it's seemingly flown by people with a more blurred vision of where we're at today. and my opinion of that flag may blurry because I'm currently living in Nashville and work for a bunch of "south will rise again" follk. So I'll grant you that I'm biased, but not in favor of the American flag. They're all bullshit & opressive.
This is the kind of comedy I was hoping this thread would (d)evolve into.
Michigan Unemployment Rate
August 2006 7.1%
the Big 3 and the UAW have all shot themselves in the foot, but that's a whole other thread.
I'm saying.
I don't think that anybody still believes that the North fought the Civil war in order to "free the slaves"--at least I hope that nobody remains under that misconception.
At the same time, acknowledging that the Union's motives were self-interested does not mean that retaining the right to hold slaves was not one of the Confederacy's chief motivations in succeeding.
In Shied's mindgarden, pointing out Northern racism somehow renders Southern racism nonexistent.
Totally. I was having this same talk the other day. These Jews were all on my dick for wearing a shirt with this on it. I'm like, don't ya'll know that the swastika means much much more than Nazism. I like to express my love for eating rice with my hands and making my own yogurt.
Also, I was fairly shocked to see HarveyCanal make the time-worn argument of the the entire South as a victim to Northern aggression. Don't forget that the Southern states seceded and attacked the North. And read a book if you don't think slavery was a huge part of why that happened.
Ah, the tu quoque fallacy. It works 60 percent of the time every time.
yoigotbeats: Your dart to that dude was/is
The dude who picked us up from the airport in Munich had a Confederate flag in the back dash of his muscle car. I figured it was on some ignorant shit, whereas Cosmo says in Germany it is a substitute for a swastika. This guy's boss was Jewish though, so I dunno...
HC is the Austin/ Bay Area/ South Central/ New Orleans General Lee.
The real hip-hop shall rise again!
oh and my 2 cents - any representation of a flag that carries a symbolic message of pro-slavery/ inequality is pretty bullshit to represent. You'll never catch a Jew rocking a Nazi symbol no matter what fun funky colors are used to make it look "cool"
I dunno about that. Malcolm McClaren sold plenty of Swastika imagery through his shops not sure he ever wore one though.
Sadly, I think you're right. If it hasn't already, Holocaust Irony will become cool at some point
And I guearantee you Vice will be at the forefront of the movement. Because it'd be, like, so hip and ironic! And they could do a whole article about Holocaust jokes Dos & Don'ts!