This is it. In 20 years this is what the new America will be looking more like. But will it flip back the other way again?
Not enough time for it to swing agin (keep in mind that it has swung b/4 the inner city 100 years had plenty of rich folks.) We will be out of oil by that time:
i thought this thread was gonna be some german dude talking about bigoted nymphos. instead i get record losers talking about fair housing. what a fucking letdown.
I think you have your heart in the right place but you totally misunderstand this situation.
Yeah, it's a tricky one. I'm sure what usually happens is a hand full of developers reap all the benefits. What would be great is if neighbours could get together and form co-ops and corporations to buy the buildings up and keep it all in-house. That would be the ideal otherwise in NYC all the poor folks get pushed further and further out and in AZ more and more virgin desert gets bladed and clapboard housed up. I'm not for real estate developers getting rich, I'm for citizens becoming propert owners.
What's happening in DC is that the housing market has created a baloon that developers/real estate agents cash in on, and as housing begins to go far beyond what anyone dreamed it could, veteran home owners have no choice but to cash their chips and move out of DC(as there is nowhere in the District that is really affordable to buy and many of these sellers are older and retired/fixed income). Now, many of these homes are then renovated and sold in the $600-800k range(seriously, for like a 3 bedroom walk-up), the majority of new buyers seemingly being young, white professionals. Many young, black professionals feel priced out of what may have indeed been a neighborhood they grew up in, or around, and end up reversing the "White Flight" trend of the 80s and moving into new upscale housing developments out in the suburbs, for a still whopping $300-500k house.
So what you end up with are neighborhoods that have a large number of public housing facilities(and tenants) in DC proper, vying for the city's attention with newly transplanted, higher tax bracketed, mostly white property owners. Now, who do you suppose has an easier time getting a council member's attention? So most decisions from that point on are made based on what the relatively new neighbors values are, which is often in direct opposition to the people who have populated the city for so long. Obviously, some things are universal(health care/hospitals/food stores/general services)but even universal things are whims to the almighty dollar.After all, are you concerned that a hospital in your area is closing if you have health insurance AND a car, in case something happens? Not as concerned as someone who has to worry about how they are going to pay for a bus to work on any given morning.
I think you have your heart in the right place but you totally misunderstand this situation.
Yeah, it's a tricky one. I'm sure what usually happens is a hand full of developers reap all the benefits. What would be great is if neighbours could get together and form co-ops and corporations to buy the buildings up and keep it all in-house. That would be the ideal otherwise in NYC all the poor folks get pushed further and further out and in AZ more and more virgin desert gets bladed and clapboard housed up. I'm not for real estate developers getting rich, I'm for citizens becoming propert owners.
Man, be glad you're not in Phoenix then. At the rate houses are skyrocketing out here, my wife and I will never be able to afford a house.
Not to mention all the California heads buying up 50% of the houses out here and using them as rental properties.
Before I left NYC after 9/11( the building I worked in was at 22 Cortlandt if that means anything to y'all Noo Yawkers) I had lived in Bed-Stuy for years( on Marcus Garvey near Fulton), for all I know it could be Williamsburg jr over there by now( but I somehow doubt it)
Not to mention all the California heads buying up 50% of the houses out here and using them as rental properties.
And tax breaks, I am sure. that's what LA folks do in Vegas, buy houses, rent them out while claiming primary residence in NV(which has no state taxes).
Not to mention all the California heads buying up 50% of the houses out here and using them as rental properties.
And tax breaks, I am sure. that's what LA folks do in Vegas, buy houses, rent them out while claiming primary residence in NV(which has no state taxes).
I don't think they get away with that here though. I'm pretty sure there's a strict AZ law with establishing residency. Something that says you have to actually OCCUPY the house 4-6 months out of the year. I'll check up on that though.
Before I left NYC after 9/11( the building I worked in was at 22 Cortlandt if that means anything to y'all Noo Yawkers) I had lived in Bed-Stuy for years( on Marcus Garvey near Fulton), for all I know it could be Williamsburg jr over there by now( but I somehow doubt it)
It's on it's way.
I guess that makes me an 'urban pioneer'
when I moved in over there I would get stares like I was from the moon & children would yell, "mommy mommy it's a white man!!!"
by the time I moved out local black property owners were stopping me on the street to ask if I knew any white folks that were looking for a place to live.
*If you can afford the absurdly inflated housing costs in NJ
I am still trying to figure out how the market is sustaining itself, with prices so high! I mean, I could ostensibly double the money on my house, but I would have to pay that AND some to move into a comparable or better house in the same area! I mean, what's the point? And where does everyone else go to live? And what happens to business in THOSE areas where everyone living there has no disposable income? I just have a hard time figuring out housing, that's for sure.
*If you can afford the absurdly inflated housing costs in NJ
I am still trying to figure out how the market is sustaining itself, with prices so high! I mean, I could ostensibly double the money on my house, but I would have to pay that AND some to move into a comparable or better house in the same area! I mean, what's the point? And where does everyone else go to live? And what happens to business in THOSE areas where everyone living there has no disposable income? I just have a hard time figuring out housing, that's for sure.
We got really lucky in that we bought at a time when interest rates, and housing costs were relatively low. There's a real estate office we pass on the way home every day that always has something posted on their sign like:
POINT PLEASANT CAPE $499,000!!![/b] like it's a deal or something.
The fact that we live a few miles from the beach doesn't help.
Description Sharp 3 bedroom - or convertible den - home on a large lot with a knock-out two car garage. Fully tiled floor! Best RB location, 2 year old roof, new concrete driveway done in 2003 Property is subject to seller's exchange.e.
List Price: $656,000 SqFt: 885 Type: SFR Lot Size: 5832 Bedrooms: 3 Age: 52 Bathrooms: 1 Garage: 2detatched
As far as AZ goes, Phx has established some type of moratorium (sp?) on folks buying houses for rental usage. I may be heading that way after the summer to buy something.
And Grafwritah, your "positive role models" for success in the ghettos is pretty patronising, sort of like something Alan Keyes would say. But maybe you're right. If there were just enough ambitious white folk then maybe the kids in North Brooklyn wouldn't have the nation's highest rate of asthma.
Actually, you're being patronizing. You're assuming that the only people that could possibly have the money to gentrify a neighborhood are white.
Whoops.
It can be anyone, and should be. If you check it out you'll find that many minorities from shit areas that move up the economic ladder beat it out of the neighborhood as fast as white folks do.
Inner city redevelopment is paid for by "incentives" which is my and your taxes, and the taxes of those who will soon be priced out.
Can't really argue there.
The problem is, like I said before, no one is going to be charitable and just run around like the housing fairy fixing things up for the good of all. The difference in the suburbs is that they can build a new building and make money. And actually, I haven't seen anyone to jump to renovate apartments in the suburbs either, they're just newer cities and hence newer facilities.
Tax incentives at least get people in to do something. They also bring in people with higher incomes who will be taxed.
Also, the assumption is that people are being displaced. Have you looked at the rate of population loss in most cities? People left - the size stayed the same.
You can tell me that somewhere like Cleveland, where the population has dropped from almost 1,000,000 in the city proper (not including suburbs) and is down to under 500,000 now, that there isn't room for everyone?
And where does everyone else go to live? And what happens to business in THOSE areas where everyone living there has no disposable income? I just have a hard time figuring out housing, that's for sure.
They move to Ohio - new house, 2,000 sq ft, $150,000.
Or, for $650,000, a new:
WOW! Quality&detailed craftsmanship abound in this custom built model by Hermitage Homes. Upgrades galore include granite, hardwoods, central vac, security system, FP in master, FP in kitchen hearth room, JennAir appl, 3 car garage, fabulous 2 story foyer&great room, 4 season sunroom, walk-out lower level w/full bath.
Condos in Williamsburg are hitting the seven figures.
2br Condos in South Slope (a depressing, if safe neighborhood) are $700,000.
I'm just curious, what's the basement price for a semi-liveable structure in an area like this?
Like here, a liveable (if not pretty) house can be had for about $22,000 - shit neighborhood, but still.
Where's "here"? My sister lives in SC and got a house there for less than 70K that would have run them 3-400K in NJ.
Ohio. I'm not saying Ohio has the market on relatively inexpensive housing cornered, but that's why I'm curious what a "dirt cheap" house would go for in one of these high priced markets.
so ive heard the real estate market is on a bubble. or something to that effect. i have no idea what that means. but from what i could glean from the friends i have that were talking about it, is that the price of real estate has been artificially inflated and eventually will come crashing down. its to the point now where even middle class folks are being forced out along with the poor, and only the exclusively rich can afford to buy property. the rest are renting.
maybe some of you smart mofos can clear that all up.
Condos in Williamsburg are hitting the seven figures.
2br Condos in South Slope (a depressing, if safe neighborhood) are $700,000.
I'm just curious, what's the basement price for a semi-liveable structure in an area like this?
Like here, a liveable (if not pretty) house can be had for about $22,000 - shit neighborhood, but still.
Where's "here"? My sister lives in SC and got a house there for less than 70K that would have run them 3-400K in NJ.
Ohio. I'm not saying Ohio has the market on relatively inexpensive housing cornered, but that's why I'm curious what a "dirt cheap" house would go for in one of these high priced markets.
In my part of NJ (in fact most of the state north of Ocean County) you're not touching a 3BR house in a decent area for less than 250K, and that's the crappy ones.
so ive heard the real estate market is on a bubble. or something to that effect. i have no idea what that means. but from what i could glean from the friends i have that were talking about it, is that the price of real estate has been artificially inflated and eventually will come crashing down. its to the point now where even middle class folks are being forced out along with the poor, and only the exclusively rich can afford to buy property. the rest are renting.
maybe some of you smart mofos can clear that all up.
Actually, people can still afford to own, provided they are buying in areas that don't have a bubble, or bought like 2-3years ago and more and have a fixed mortgage. Owning a house that is all of a sudden worth twice what you paid is of little use if you have to pay 3 times your original price for a new house! What it means in my neighborhood is that new neighbors likely are wealthier than the current neighbors, but mostly that people in houses now are not looking to move anytime soon.
Please to clarify. Are those percentage differences + or -? I'm not real up on property values these days (being the broke renter that I am).
+ for sure.
One way to look at home prices is, as how many years income. My wife and I bought about 10 years ago for about 80,000. We were making a combined 40,000. So our house cost the equivelent of 2 years income. Today if we were to buy this house it would cost us about 4+ years.
The Median house price in portland is probably about 400,000 now, so that would be 10 years income. Median income is probably around 60,000.
When median home prices aproach 10 years income they become unsustainable. Either incomes will have to come up, or prices will have to come down. When prices start coming down that is a bubble that has burst and specalators lose out (Yeah!). But home owners still have their homes.
Gentrification happens different ways in differnet neighborhoods, and it is neither all bad, or all good. (Unless you lose your home, then it's all bad.)
In Portland it usually works like this: Area is depopulated with empty store fronts and boarded up homes.
20 something artist types move in because of low rents.
Immigrant business move in because of low rents.
New business and renters make the area more attractive.
Young home buyers find they can afford in neighborhood and start buying and fixing up.
Speculators start buying homes, fixing them up and selling in 6-12 months at nice profit.
More upscale buyers start moving into renovated houses.
More upscale business follow.
If you are an original rentor from before all this happens your landlord may well decide to raise your rent. Fix the place up and raise the rent. Or sell. As long as you can keep up with your landlord and rising values you can stay otherwise so long.
If you are an original home owner you benifit. Your home is now worth more, and your neighborhood is nicer. AS long as you can keep up with rising property taxes you benifit all around. The only reason to sell out is to cash in, or because your taxes have become prohibatively high.
After all these early home buyers start having kids they start taking an intrest in improving neighborhood schools. (Rich people send their kids to public schools in portland.) Other ammenities come to the neighborhood like grocery stores.
After all these early home buyers start having kids they start taking an intrest in improving neighborhood schools. (Rich people send their kids to public schools in portland.) Other ammenities come to the neighborhood like grocery stores.
Rich people send their kids to city schools. Ha! I've heard that urban legend before.
Comments
hahahahahahahaha
What's happening in DC is that the housing market has created a baloon that developers/real estate agents cash in on, and as housing begins to go far beyond what anyone dreamed it could, veteran home owners have no choice but to cash their chips and move out of DC(as there is nowhere in the District that is really affordable to buy and many of these sellers are older and retired/fixed income). Now, many of these homes are then renovated and sold in the $600-800k range(seriously, for like a 3 bedroom walk-up), the majority of new buyers seemingly being young, white professionals. Many young, black professionals feel priced out of what may have indeed been a neighborhood they grew up in, or around, and end up reversing the "White Flight" trend of the 80s and moving into new upscale housing developments out in the suburbs, for a still whopping $300-500k house.
So what you end up with are neighborhoods that have a large number of public housing facilities(and tenants) in DC proper, vying for the city's attention with newly transplanted, higher tax bracketed, mostly white property owners. Now, who do you suppose has an easier time getting a council member's attention? So most decisions from that point on are made based on what the relatively new neighbors values are, which is often in direct opposition to the people who have populated the city for so long. Obviously, some things are universal(health care/hospitals/food stores/general services)but even universal things are whims to the almighty dollar.After all, are you concerned that a hospital in your area is closing if you have health insurance AND a car, in case something happens? Not as concerned as someone who has to worry about how they are going to pay for a bus to work on any given morning.
Man, be glad you're not in Phoenix then. At the rate houses are skyrocketing out here, my wife and I will never be able to afford a house.
Not to mention all the California heads buying up 50% of the houses out here and using them as rental properties.
It's on it's way.
And tax breaks, I am sure. that's what LA folks do in Vegas, buy houses, rent them out while claiming primary residence in NV(which has no state taxes).
I don't think they get away with that here though. I'm pretty sure there's a strict AZ law with establishing residency. Something that says you have to actually OCCUPY the house 4-6 months out of the year. I'll check up on that though.
I guess that makes me an 'urban pioneer'
when I moved in over there I would get stares like I was from the moon & children would yell, "mommy mommy it's a white man!!!"
by the time I moved out local black property owners were stopping me on the street to ask if I knew any white folks that were looking for a place to live.
---
Note to all minority people: PLEASE move into my neighborhood.*
*If you can afford the absurdly inflated housing costs in NJ
I am still trying to figure out how the market is sustaining itself, with prices so high! I mean, I could ostensibly double the money on my house, but I would have to pay that AND some to move into a comparable or better house in the same area! I mean, what's the point? And where does everyone else go to live? And what happens to business in THOSE areas where everyone living there has no disposable income? I just have a hard time figuring out housing, that's for sure.
BARGAIN!
We got really lucky in that we bought at a time when interest rates, and housing costs were relatively low. There's a real estate office we pass on the way home every day that always has something posted on their sign like:
POINT PLEASANT CAPE $499,000!!![/b] like it's a deal or something.
The fact that we live a few miles from the beach doesn't help.
Redondo Beach, CA
Description
Sharp 3 bedroom - or convertible den - home on a large lot with a knock-out two car garage. Fully tiled floor! Best RB location, 2 year old roof, new concrete driveway done in 2003 Property is subject to seller's exchange.e.
List Price: $656,000 SqFt: 885
Type: SFR Lot Size: 5832
Bedrooms: 3 Age: 52
Bathrooms: 1 Garage: 2detatched
As far as AZ goes, Phx has established some type of moratorium (sp?) on folks buying houses for rental usage. I may be heading that way after the summer to buy something.
Actually, you're being patronizing. You're assuming that the only people that could possibly have the money to gentrify a neighborhood are white.
Whoops.
It can be anyone, and should be. If you check it out you'll find that many minorities from shit areas that move up the economic ladder beat it out of the neighborhood as fast as white folks do.
Can't really argue there.
The problem is, like I said before, no one is going to be charitable and just run around like the housing fairy fixing things up for the good of all. The difference in the suburbs is that they can build a new building and make money. And actually, I haven't seen anyone to jump to renovate apartments in the suburbs either, they're just newer cities and hence newer facilities.
Tax incentives at least get people in to do something. They also bring in people with higher incomes who will be taxed.
Also, the assumption is that people are being displaced. Have you looked at the rate of population loss in most cities? People left - the size stayed the same.
You can tell me that somewhere like Cleveland, where the population has dropped from almost 1,000,000 in the city proper (not including suburbs) and is down to under 500,000 now, that there isn't room for everyone?
They move to Ohio - new house, 2,000 sq ft, $150,000.
Or, for $650,000, a new:
WOW! Quality&detailed craftsmanship abound in this custom built model by Hermitage Homes. Upgrades galore include granite, hardwoods, central vac, security system, FP in master, FP in kitchen hearth room, JennAir appl, 3 car garage, fabulous 2 story foyer&great room, 4 season sunroom, walk-out lower level w/full bath.
I don't get these coast folks sometimes.
yeah, you are probably a year late on those, but I am sure there are some $750k 2 bdr/1 and a half baths left in the sketchy area of town.
Condos in Williamsburg are hitting the seven figures.
2br Condos in South Slope (a depressing, if safe neighborhood) are $700,000.
I'm just curious, what's the basement price for a semi-liveable structure in an area like this?
Like here, a liveable (if not pretty) house can be had for about $22,000 - shit neighborhood, but still.
Where's "here"? My sister lives in SC and got a house there for less than 70K that would have run them 3-400K in NJ.
Ohio. I'm not saying Ohio has the market on relatively inexpensive housing cornered, but that's why I'm curious what a "dirt cheap" house would go for in one of these high priced markets.
maybe some of you smart mofos can clear that all up.
In my part of NJ (in fact most of the state north of Ocean County) you're not touching a 3BR house in a decent area for less than 250K, and that's the crappy ones.
Actually, people can still afford to own, provided they are buying in areas that don't have a bubble, or bought like 2-3years ago and more and have a fixed mortgage. Owning a house that is all of a sudden worth twice what you paid is of little use if you have to pay 3 times your original price for a new house! What it means in my neighborhood is that new neighbors likely are wealthier than the current neighbors, but mostly that people in houses now are not looking to move anytime soon.
Please to clarify. Are those percentage differences + or -? I'm not real up on property values these days (being the broke renter that I am).
+ for sure.
One way to look at home prices is, as how many years income. My wife and I bought about 10 years ago for about 80,000. We were making a combined 40,000. So our house cost the equivelent of 2 years income. Today if we were to buy this house it would cost us about 4+ years.
The Median house price in portland is probably about 400,000 now, so that would be 10 years income. Median income is probably around 60,000.
When median home prices aproach 10 years income they become unsustainable. Either incomes will have to come up, or prices will have to come down. When prices start coming down that is a bubble that has burst and specalators lose out (Yeah!). But home owners still have their homes.
Dan
In Portland it usually works like this:
Area is depopulated with empty store fronts and boarded up homes.
20 something artist types move in because of low rents.
Immigrant business move in because of low rents.
New business and renters make the area more attractive.
Young home buyers find they can afford in neighborhood and start buying and fixing up.
Speculators start buying homes, fixing them up and selling in 6-12 months at nice profit.
More upscale buyers start moving into renovated houses.
More upscale business follow.
If you are an original rentor from before all this happens your landlord may well decide to raise your rent. Fix the place up and raise the rent. Or sell. As long as you can keep up with your landlord and rising values you can stay otherwise so long.
If you are an original home owner you benifit. Your home is now worth more, and your neighborhood is nicer. AS long as you can keep up with rising property taxes you benifit all around. The only reason to sell out is to cash in, or because your taxes have become prohibatively high.
After all these early home buyers start having kids they start taking an intrest in improving neighborhood schools. (Rich people send their kids to public schools in portland.) Other ammenities come to the neighborhood like grocery stores.
Dan
Rich people send their kids to city schools. Ha! I've heard that urban legend before.
Only in Portland.