Help Me Out: Busta vs. Diamond

mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
edited April 2006 in Strut Central
This is on some uber-nerdy, splitting hairs shit but it's been bugging me.I posted Diamond's "I Went For Mine" and Busta Rhymes, "New York Shit" on my blog and suggested that it's weird that Busta didn't give Diamond a more prominent shout out considering that he's basically rhyming for 5+ minutes over a beat that Diamond (and Jazzy Jay) came up with. I have someone who's arguing, "why should Diamond get credit. It's two different beats." This dude is being really insistent about it, noting - "the drums are different. i would say that right there is a pretty big differnce in itself. but also, the diamond track only uses the flute part in the chorus, while the busta track lets the whole flute part ride out throughout the track."Now personally, I think this is a ridiculous argument but hey, maybe I'm being close-minded and stubborn here so I'm throwing it to ya'll as a bunch of hip-hop savvy, production savvy folks. Here are the two songs in case you need a refresher course:Diamond: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/went.mp3Busta: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/nyshit.mp3The question is this: are these beats really all that different?(I would have done the poll function but I guess we don't have it anymore)
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  Comments


  • Diamond's version is much better than Busta's versions

    Reasons:
    1)Harder hitting drums
    2)The flute is utilized less, and when it is used only have the flute loop is used in most of its occurrences.
    3)Scratches added to add more flavour to the beat.

    I generally hate to hear subsequent beats that rock loops that has been used in the same way as in an early recording. Don't get me wrong I have no qualms about a sample to be used by multiple artists, my personal requirement is that the sample should be manipulated in a way that is unique to each producer.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    The question isn't "which is better" though. The question is: are these basically the same beats? My argument is that anyone hearing Busta's song - who is familiar with Diamond's song - is basically going to think, "oh, Busta is using the 'I Went For Mine' beat."

    My dissenter suggests that all the two have in common is the same loop but otherwise, they're very different tracks.



    Diamond's version is much better than Busta's versions

    Reasons:
    1)Harder hitting drums
    2)The flute is utilized less, and when it is used only have the flute loop is used in most of its occurrences.
    3)Scratches added to add more flavour to the beat.

    I generally hate to hear subsequent beats that rock loops that has been used in the same way as in an early recording. Don't get me wrong I have no qualms about a sample to be used by multiple artists, my personal requirement is that the sample should be manipulated in a way that is unique to each producer.

  • Big_ChanBig_Chan 5,088 Posts
    O,

    Diamond's is better.

  • MorseCodeMorseCode 1,516 Posts
    My dissenter suggests that all the two have in common is the same loop but otherwise, they're very different tracks.

    Yeah, this is simple. He's trippin, I mean the shit is flipped a little bit differently, but not enough to not make me think of the Diamond song as soon as I hear it. Its a throwback reference to that song in and of itself, no?

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    In the words of Fred Wesley, "same beat."

    besides, what that dude says isn't even true - the flutes
    come in at the same time and drop out the same, at least
    at the beginning.

  • BeatChemistBeatChemist 1,465 Posts
    Busta version is a weak immitation of the Diamond D version. Definitely not knocking as hard with the drums. Could be the version of the song or the encoding of the mp3 though... that shit can get real fucked up.

    But yea. This dude claiming they're two different beats needs to lay off the crack pipe.

  • djsheepdjsheep 3,640 Posts
    same beat.

    i like diamond's shit better.

    i love that sample.

  • dayday 9,612 Posts
    same beat.

    i like diamond's shit better.

    i love that sample.

    Exactly. It's the same loop so I don't know how anyone could claim shit was done differently outside of some minor changes. Minor meaning hardly any.


    "It's never as good as the first time"



  • Jazz_OneJazz_One 55 Posts
    The vision of Vanilli Ice explaining the difference between his song and the Queen sample just went through my head.

  • nzshadownzshadow 5,515 Posts
    Um...

    Its. The. Same. Beat.

    dude is obviously either;

    a. Deaf.
    b. Fucking Deaf.
    c. Really Fucking Deaf.

    bro, stop giving this toy your attention.

    what a muppet.

  • JuniorJunior 4,853 Posts

    Its. The. Same. Beat.

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,921 Posts
    This is on some uber-nerdy, splitting hairs shit but it's been bugging me.

    I posted Diamond's "I Went For Mine" and Busta Rhymes, "New York Shit" on my blog and suggested that it's weird that Busta didn't give Diamond a more prominent shout out considering that he's basically rhyming for 5+ minutes over a beat that Diamond (and Jazzy Jay) came up with.

    I have someone who's arguing, "why should Diamond get credit. It's two different beats." This dude is being really insistent about it, noting - "the drums are different. i would say that right there is a pretty big differnce in itself. but also, the diamond track only uses the flute part in the chorus, while the busta track lets the whole flute part ride out throughout the track."

    Now personally, I think this is a ridiculous argument but hey, maybe I'm being close-minded and stubborn here so I'm throwing it to ya'll as a bunch of hip-hop savvy, production savvy folks.

    Here are the two songs in case you need a refresher course:
    Diamond: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/went.mp3
    Busta: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/nyshit.mp3

    The question is this: are these beats really all that different?

    (I would have done the poll function but I guess we don't have it anymore)

    I'm going to go somewhat against the prevailing opinion here, and say that, while they're not entirely different, there is a significant difference. Diamond's beat has a better dynamic, and there's a lot more thought gone into the song structure and production. The end result is that "I Went For Mine" sounds like an actual song, whereas "New York Shit" sounds like what it is; Busta riding the "Faded Lady" loop. That has a nice, raw, "two turntables and a microphone" feel in itself, which I suspect is part of the effect Scratch was after. If Scratch had re-created the Diamond beat completely, rather than just using a straight loop of the source material, then of course you could argue that it was the same beat. I think Scratch has consciously gone for a specific kind of throwback vibe, one that was/is associated with a particular NY style and sound at a particular point in hip-hop's timeline, but he's tried to keep it as basic as possible, placing the emphasis on the feel as much as the component parts. It's obvious that Scratch is doing his thing as a "tribute" to Diamond, so there shouldn't be any dispute over whether Diamond deserves props or not.

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    diamond put drums on it. thats it.


    That was always my favorite beat on the diamond d cd though. The busta shit is dope, but its mostly dope cause hes rhyming over an old diamond d beat!

    i think dj scratch didnt redo the drums cause he aint wanna use that old impeach the president shit in 2006.


    Plus, just making a song where the beat is just playing straight off a record is definitely some NY shit!

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    This is on some uber-nerdy, splitting hairs shit but it's been bugging me.

    I posted Diamond's "I Went For Mine" and Busta Rhymes, "New York Shit" on my blog and suggested that it's weird that Busta didn't give Diamond a more prominent shout out considering that he's basically rhyming for 5+ minutes over a beat that Diamond (and Jazzy Jay) came up with.

    I have someone who's arguing, "why should Diamond get credit. It's two different beats." This dude is being really insistent about it, noting - "the drums are different. i would say that right there is a pretty big differnce in itself. but also, the diamond track only uses the flute part in the chorus, while the busta track lets the whole flute part ride out throughout the track."

    Now personally, I think this is a ridiculous argument but hey, maybe I'm being close-minded and stubborn here so I'm throwing it to ya'll as a bunch of hip-hop savvy, production savvy folks.

    Here are the two songs in case you need a refresher course:
    Diamond: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/went.mp3
    Busta: http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/nyshit.mp3

    The question is this: are these beats really all that different?

    (I would have done the poll function but I guess we don't have it anymore)

    I'm going to go somewhat against the prevailing opinion here, and say that, while they're not entirely different, there is a significant difference. Diamond's beat has a better dynamic, and there's a lot more thought gone into the song structure and production. The end result is that "I Went For Mine" sounds like an actual song, whereas "New York Shit" sounds like what it is; Busta riding the "Faded Lady" loop. That has a nice, raw, "two turntables and a microphone" feel in itself, which I suspect is part of the effect Scratch was after. If Scratch had re-created the Diamond beat completely, rather than just using a straight loop of the source material, then of course you could argue that it was the same beat. I think Scratch has consciously gone for a specific kind of throwback vibe, one that was/is associated with a particular NY style and sound at a particular point in hip-hop's timeline, but he's tried to keep it as basic as possible, placing the emphasis on the feel as much as the component parts.


    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

  • Phill_MostPhill_Most 4,594 Posts
    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

    I don't remember hearing it before the Diamond song came out, but since Jazzy Jay hooked it up it's quite possible that he played it sometimes back in the late 70's or early 80's with Bambaataa. Bam and his deejays (Jay, Afrika Islam, etc.) were known for playing a lot of crazy shit that nobody else at that time was really up on.

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,921 Posts
    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

    I don't remember hearing it before the Diamond song came out, but since Jazzy Jay hooked it up it's quite possible that he played it sometimes back in the late 70's or early 80's with Bambaataa. Bam and his deejays (Jay, Afrika Islam, etc.) were known for playing a lot of crazy shit that nobody else at that time was really up on.

    Didn't "Faded Lady" come out in 1976, which would have made it kinda new then? Were DJs mixing up hot new joints with the oldies in those days? I suppose they must have done - after all, why would they be any different from DJs now? For people like me, who were half a world away, without any idea of what was happening until years later, there's often this assumption that it was always about old records as much as anything else.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

    I don't remember hearing it before the Diamond song came out, but since Jazzy Jay hooked it up it's quite possible that he played it sometimes back in the late 70's or early 80's with Bambaataa. Bam and his deejays (Jay, Afrika Islam, etc.) were known for playing a lot of crazy shit that nobody else at that time was really up on.

    Didn't "Faded Lady" come out in 1976, which would have made it kinda new then? Were DJs mixing up hot new joints with the oldies in those days? I suppose they must have done - after all, why would they be any different from DJs now? For people like me, who were half a world away, without any idea of what was happening until years later, there's often this assumption that it was always about old records as much as anything else.

    OLD and NEW were played.

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,921 Posts
    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

    I don't remember hearing it before the Diamond song came out, but since Jazzy Jay hooked it up it's quite possible that he played it sometimes back in the late 70's or early 80's with Bambaataa. Bam and his deejays (Jay, Afrika Islam, etc.) were known for playing a lot of crazy shit that nobody else at that time was really up on.

    Didn't "Faded Lady" come out in 1976, which would have made it kinda new then? Were DJs mixing up hot new joints with the oldies in those days? I suppose they must have done - after all, why would they be any different from DJs now? For people like me, who were half a world away, without any idea of what was happening until years later, there's often this assumption that it was always about old records as much as anything else.

    OLD and NEW were played.

    Yeah, I realise what a dumb question that must have seemed now.

  • CosmoCosmo 9,767 Posts
    Lotta hate.

    Saying the Busta shit is dope. The Diamond is dope too and is the OG. I just don't see why people hate.

    By the way, the new Obie Trice with Akon[/b] is fucking KILLING IT. Dude, Akon did it AGAIN.

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    "REAL HEADZ" clue me in. Was the faded lady break well known before the diamond d record? Is it one of those park jams people were always rhyming to, or was it basicly diamond's thing?

    I don't remember hearing it before the Diamond song came out, but since Jazzy Jay hooked it up it's quite possible that he played it sometimes back in the late 70's or early 80's with Bambaataa. Bam and his deejays (Jay, Afrika Islam, etc.) were known for playing a lot of crazy shit that nobody else at that time was really up on.

    Didn't "Faded Lady" come out in 1976, which would have made it kinda new then? Were DJs mixing up hot new joints with the oldies in those days? I suppose they must have done - after all, why would they be any different from DJs now? For people like me, who were half a world away, without any idea of what was happening until years later, there's often this assumption that it was always about old records as much as anything else.

    OLD and NEW were played.

    Yeah, I realise what a dumb question that must have seemed now.

    Nah, not every DJ had super-deep crates or guts to play left of center rock records.

  • CosmoCosmo 9,767 Posts
    Let's just talk about Akon, shall we?

  • nzshadownzshadow 5,515 Posts
    Saying the Busta shit is dope. The Diamond is dope too and is the OG.

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    Let's just talk about Akon, shall we?

    Are you stepping with the mindstate of a mobster?

  • CosmoCosmo 9,767 Posts
    Let's just talk about Akon, shall we?

    Are you stepping with the mindstate of a mobster?


  • nzshadownzshadow 5,515 Posts

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    Best believe I'm gon lace you.

  • PABLOPABLO 1,921 Posts
    The real question is who has the supposed instrumental version from the library LP?
    I wanna hear THAT schitt.

  • diamond put drums on it. thats it.


    i think dj scratch didnt redo the drums cause he aint wanna use that old GLADYS KNIGHT shit in 2006.





    btw...the instrumental is the shiiit

  • Phill_MostPhill_Most 4,594 Posts
    Didn't "Faded Lady" come out in 1976, which would have made it kinda new then? Were DJs mixing up hot new joints with the oldies in those days? I suppose they must have done - after all, why would they be any different from DJs now? For people like me, who were half a world away, without any idea of what was happening until years later, there's often this assumption that it was always about old records as much as anything else.

    OLD and NEW were played.

    Yeah, I realise what a dumb question that must have seemed now.

    Don't feel bad; a LOT of people, especially faux-real heads, think that hip hop jams back in the early days was all impeach the president substittion bongo rock breaks and beats all night long. NOT EVEN. It was basically just parties, and even back then you weren't gonna make the females happy if you just played break after break after break. Of course the playlists varied from dj to dj, but it was very common that for most of the night you'd hear whatever was hot on the radio at the moment- michael jackson, brothers johnson, slave, chic, george benson, whatever disco record that was bangin', etc. and I'm not talking about the songs that necessarily had breaks (although dudes like Flash would cut the hell out of stuff like The Whispers "And The Beat Goes On" or Anita ward "Ring My Bell", just to name two). So yeah, a lot of the records that were getting rocked back then were records that just came out... playing a record from 1976 in 1980 would've been like playing an old record, really.

    This piece of real schitt??? history ?? phill most 2006 (appreciate it, batches)

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    especially faux-real heads








    Officer, shots fired, North Philly, corner of...
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