His contention is that it is faster to flip through vinyl because visually it's quicker to ID what you're looking for by the cover or the label color. I know what he's talking about. When you know you're vinyl, you usually don't have to actually look at the text on the label. He's convinced the Serato interface is too slow for someone who's doing quick mixing or picking as you go.
You can create separate "crates" which are basically playlists. There are fields you can sort through acsending or decending order so you could sort it by artist/song title(in alphabetical order) or BPM (slow to fast, fast to slow.) You can also search for things too. I think once you get the hang of it, it could be as fast, if not faster than searching through crates. I think you can also import album art but I haven't used that myself.
I think at the end of the day, what the opponents of things like Serato are really decrying is the end of a tradition: the tradition of vinyl, of digging for vinyl, of vinyl as the supreme format, and, as someone else also said, of vinyl as the preeminent symbol of this approach to acqurireing and playing music.
And I'm a bit worried about this myself. But I think as many of the proponents have also said, this is merely a shift that was always gonna happen, and a) if you ignore it, you will eventually be left behind (one way or another), and b) it will actually allow for an extension of creativity, even as it also lowers the bar for medicority at another level.
Are people forgetting that indy rock bands are nowadays increasingly getting their music pressed up on vinyls. All one has to do it go through the new release section at picadillyrecords.co.uk & see what i mean. A definite resurgence of 7" singles. Some weeks there are more rock vinyl that their is hip hop/house/reggae, etc...
Even rock mags cilrculation are going up while 'dance' magazines are going down. The UK's DnB/Hip hop mag Undercover just stopped printing while Kerrang & NME have had rises. The rock vinyl rise is coinciding with this increased interest.
I do believe the dj/vinyl culture in Europe is very different from the USA.
And it must be said that not evreyone who buys vinyl is a dj. Many just like the aesthetic. Some prefer to hold a book than scroll on a laptop when reading a novel.
And yes, where are these locations that have indy music available for MP3 download? Most people I know who have Final Scratch/Serato are still pretty much converting their newly bought vinyl into wav/aif files. Major label is different.
Music seems to be less & less important to people nowadays. The convenience has turned it into sonic wallpaper. The appreciation of an ID tag can never replace the emotional impact of a record, its cover & then its contents.
I know what I really prefer...
This...
Over this...
It's like me wanting Dizzy Bull's new tracks on wax. I have them now on MP3 (rough form), but it just won't hit me as hard as it would if I had them on vinyl. I can't explain why. Theoretically it should be the same. But then i tend to see films in the cinema than on DVD. The experience is different. For me.
dude's who are hanging on to some sort of vinyl integrity, need to move on or get left in the dust. I still buy records, but not disposable club shit that will be obsolete in 3 months. If it makes you feel better, just think of the environmental benefit.
what's up, tokyo tom? you still in europe? anyway, i don't know, i got this heated toilet seat with a tv i'm about to put up on ebay but if you wanna trade for that archie whitewater drop me a note.
I think labels make more money from cds than wax, someone who is in the industry want to confirm this?
They don't.. They make it from sueing people now. A few thoughts...
- The RIAA just came out now and said they believe it's illegal to rip CD's that you own. Look for even more cases of them taking people to court.
Is there anyone here that has ever worked for a major distro company?
IE: Watts, MCM, Pearl (Even around anymore?) TRC, Unique, etc etc etc
I'd like to hear their thoughts.
Cause, here are mine. Major vinyl distribution will be almost done in less than five years. Sure there will be small companies doing it. But majors will close up shop. IMO...
And soon after, there will be very few shops with a large selection of new records.
Labels have mostly been doing vinyl for one reason and one reason only the past 10 years... Promotion.
Records will be mainly a collectro type deal. People need to come to gribs with this.
I'll drop the bomb right now. Within 20 years (if not sooner) you will only be able to purchase digital files of 90% of music being released.
I'll co-sign and say that a majority of those files will be sold by independent companies as the majors will be experiencing extreme hardships in the imminent economic collapse.
You will not need CD-Rs because the MP3 player built into your phone which is implanted in your head will be able to send and receive files through a wireless connection.
Just a quick question. Is having all 5,000 MP3's at your disposal at any given time more about convenience or inabilty to pick and choose the necessary records for a set. Overseas - I can maybe see the not lugging crates and this and that. But I mean, for a gig in yr own city?
His contention is that it is faster to flip through vinyl because visually it's quicker to ID what you're looking for by the cover or the label color. I know what he's talking about. When you know you're vinyl, you usually don't have to actually look at the text on the label. He's convinced the Serato interface is too slow for someone who's doing quick mixing or picking as you go.
You can create separate "crates" which are basically playlists. There are fields you can sort through acsending or decending order so you could sort it by artist/song title(in alphabetical order) or BPM (slow to fast, fast to slow.) You can also search for things too. I think once you get the hang of it, it could be as fast, if not faster than searching through crates. I think you can also import album art but I haven't used that myself.
I find using Serato really slows me down, partly because I'm still adjusting to the process of scrolling through crates, but more so because it requires a lot more EQing than playing off 12"s. For 12"s, the mastering seems pretty standard-- provided it's not a Timbaland production, it's probably mixed properly to knock in a club and all you have to do is worry about the volume levels. By contrast, many of the mp3s I have are ripped from god knows where, so I have to EQ to compensate not only for the compression inherent in the format, but also for the quirks in however a given track was converted to mp3.
And another thing. Considering I look at a computer screen all day & night for design/work, the last thing I want to do is look at another bloody screen when having some fun deejaying.
I couldn't think of anything worse & depressing. I might as well just Tron myself now. The punters don't give a shit what format we use anyway.
3) In contrast, Peanut Butter Wolf was doing small tricks like doubling up but what was weird - and Shane aka Sharpshooter - pointed this out to me was that Wolf was flipping back and forth doubles by looking at the laptop screen rather than listening to the records: he wasn't even using his headphones. Now, sure, when you're mixing with WAV files, you can look at the waveform and figure out where tracks start, where the snares are, etc. etc. but in general, it means you're using your eyes and not your ears to DJ and that was weird to watch. I don't know if I'm doing justice to explaining this right but it's like the turntables became an extension of the computer and not the other way around, which is what I think Serato should ultimately be. But when you're going back and forth on two turntables and using a laptop screen to guide you, the whole endeavour just seems hella strange. believe me, from the audience point of view, it was weird to witness.
One thing I dislike about going to see a respected DJ (i.e. big name DJ) play it seems like everyone forgets to really get down with the music and they generally appear to gawk at the DJ to see if he (or she) twists the record some special mystical way. I think that the audience needs to stop focusing on what the DJ is doing, whether it be rifling through their crates for the next platter or scrolling through their laptop for the next mp3/wav to drop, and just have a ball feeling the music. So please MuthaF$$kas stop watching the DJ and get down on ya good foot.
That's funny. A friend of mine who went to the party Oliver is describing told me it was wack because everyone was just standing around watching the DJs, rather than dancing. Sadly, that's seems to be how SF crowds react to name hip hop DJs-- I remember seeing Jazzy Jeff a few years back at Storyville and he was tearing up party routines, but there were all these a-holes just standing around watching him like he was doing body tricks or something.
My favorite Serato function is using cue-points in internal mode, which allows you to do a lot of stuff you can do with doubles (e.g., back-spinning) as well as a lot of things you can't (jumping around within the song super-fast and stuttering the beat) just by pressing a few buttons.
Just a quick question. Is having all 5,000 MP3's at your disposal at any given time more about convenience or inabilty to pick and choose the necessary records for a set. Overseas - I can maybe see the not lugging crates and this and that. But I mean, for a gig in yr own city?
Well, you might have 5000 MP3s for local shit but let's say you play at four different venues each week and play different kinds of music at each place. Also, with proper organization, 5000+ MP3s is really not that bad to sort through.
I find using Serato really slows me down, partly because I'm still adjusting to the process of scrolling through crates, but more so because it requires a lot more EQing than playing off 12"s.
I really wish I could get my vinyl rips to sound better.
That's funny. A friend of mine who went to the party Oliver is describing told me it was wack because everyone was just standing around watching the DJs, rather than dancing.
In all fairness though, the evening was an impromptu Dilla tribute night - in other words, all Dilla, all night long - and no offense to Jay Dee but the majority of his songs were not exactly made for people to go dumb on, you know? That plus people like J. Rocc were directly exhorting to the crowd and it was a performance more than a "yo, let me rock this party and get people dancing by spinning some Slum Village" vibe. I didn't mind it but straight up: the night was not intended (I think) for people to cut the rug, especially not when the DJs were either 1) spinning >90BPM grooves and 2) stopping every 3 minutes to shout out, "this goes out to Dilla!!!" Again, that's exactly what I expected and why I went that evening: I didn't want to dance so much as soak in all the Jay Dee tracks. I can understand why other folks might have been disappointed but seriously - an 8 piece Madlib band (who were the original headliners) does not say, "boogie on down" to me.
dude's who are hanging on to some sort of vinyl integrity, need to move on or get left in the dust. I still buy records, but not disposable club shit that will be obsolete in 3 months. If it makes you feel better, just think of the environmental benefit.
what's up, tokyo tom? you still in europe? anyway, i don't know, i got this heated toilet seat with a tv i'm about to put up on ebay but if you wanna trade for that archie whitewater drop me a note.
HI RICK!!!
we need to find you an archie whitewater so you can get off my balls. put a note in the "wants" section. as for the toilet seat, i'm golden, doc. got me a nice american standard. infact, now that i have this trusty laptop for serato, i can write you emails whilst sitting upon it.
i'm hopefully coming down to va in early march. you gonna be on a 40 hour shift at the hospital?
The same filing also had this to say: "Similarly, creating a back-up copy of a music CD is not a non-infringing use...."
Ugh - this is why the double-negative is such a grammatical abomination...this sentence makes no sense. But when translated into proper English, it's true, they are claiming back-up CD'sfor personal use are copyright infringements... ...good lord...
The same filing also had this to say: "Similarly, creating a back-up copy of a music CD is not a non-infringing use...."
Ugh - this is why the double-negative is such a grammatical abomination...this sentence makes no sense. But when translated into proper English, it's true, they are claiming back-up CD'sfor personal use are copyright infringements... ...good lord...
I'm sure you've seen those inner sleeves on 80's records, that have the skull-and-crossbones logo using a cassette tape, and they say "HOME TAPING IS A CRIME" or something like that...the RIAA been shook over this shit from day one, but they need to respect the difference between streetcorner bootleggers mass-producing inferior copies for pennies and johnny american just dubbing some shit he paid for to use in his ride.
The same filing also had this to say: "Similarly, creating a back-up copy of a music CD is not a non-infringing use...."
Ugh - this is why the double-negative is such a grammatical abomination...this sentence makes no sense. But when translated into proper English, it's true, they are claiming back-up CD'sfor personal use are copyright infringements... ...good lord...
wouldn't the same have held true for these?
Well, Mini-Discs caught on mostly among radio station workers and audiophiles. It never became the New Mass Medium that Sony hoped for. Then, the mp3 dropped.
But let's remember: The RIAA is not a government department, and the government disagrees with the RIAA on this issue. This will remain the case until Big Music uses their lobbyist payola to change the Feds' mind. Unfortunately, they can still file thousands of frivolous lawsuits and appeals to wrench money from the random young and eldery in the meantime.
i dj'd Breakface! with Delay and Rockwell this past weekend and i was the only one playing vinyl!
they did some amazing stuff with serato...just creating doubles on the fly and juggling was so dope. and yet, the system crashed at least three times in the night! and that's much worse than a record skipping...that means complete silence for over a minute and that's not a good look!
(no disrespect to my dj partners that night...again, they were killin' it with serato, just a critique of serato in general).
another thing to consider...and maybe this has already been mentioned...but for me, a big part of the art of djing is the selection process you go thru before the gig...i'm talking about going thru your collection and picking what you want to play that night. i think that's much better than having everything at your fingertips because it's like a painter selecting what paints to use...it's not like the painter cares to have every hue of paint he's ever used in the past right there with him to make this new painting.
ok, maybe that's a weird analogy but i really feel that since i can only carry so many records with me to a gig, it makes me really pick what i want to play that night and that in turn reflects my taste and mood at that particular time which then comes across when dj'ing. whether people in the club care to hear my taste and mood on that night is a different story!
and also...when people come up asking for all the mainstream stuff that i own but don't have with me and didn't feel like bringing that night...i can just say, sorry, that' s a great tune but i left that one at home...rather than, well, ok, i have it on my harddrive...hold on.
many of the mp3s I have are ripped from god knows where, so I have to EQ to compensate not only for the compression inherent in the format, but also for the quirks in however a given track was converted to mp3.
That responsibilty would lie in your hands, not the Serato system.
many of the mp3s I have are ripped from god knows where, so I have to EQ to compensate not only for the compression inherent in the format, but also for the quirks in however a given track was converted to mp3.
That responsibilty would lie in your hands, not the Serato system.
Uh, I think Matt***'s point is that this is an issue inherent in using MP3s to DJ with. When you grab vinyl, you can be reasonably assured that the mastering will be consistent and predictable. When you try to play out with MP3s, you can't just pull a file and have that same expectation.
Sure, you COULD make sure during the conversion/burning phase that the mastering/fidelity is as perfect as you tweak it but that's a lot more work than, you know, taking the plastic off a new 12" and slapping that sucker down on the platter.
Not much different that buying a shady bootleg with questionable mastering. My point is that if you're ripping stuff yourself with iTunes/LAME, you can be assured of a high quality conversion. If you're pulling stuff off the internet via Limewire/Acquisition/Soulseek, you need to check how that mp3 sounds before you play it in the club.
i dj'd Breakface! with Delay and Rockwell this past weekend and i was the only one playing vinyl!
they did some amazing stuff with serato...just creating doubles on the fly and juggling was so dope. and yet, the system crashed at least three times in the night! and that's much worse than a record skipping...that means complete silence for over a minute and that's not a good look!
(no disrespect to my dj partners that night...again, they were killin' it with serato, just a critique of serato in general).
another thing to consider...and maybe this has already been mentioned...but for me, a big part of the art of djing is the selection process you go thru before the gig...i'm talking about going thru your collection and picking what you want to play that night. i think that's much better than having everything at your fingertips because it's like a painter selecting what paints to use...it's not like the painter cares to have every hue of paint he's ever used in the past right there with him to make this new painting.
ok, maybe that's a weird analogy but i really feel that since i can only carry so many records with me to a gig, it makes me really pick what i want to play that night and that in turn reflects my taste and mood at that particular time which then comes across when dj'ing. whether people in the club care to hear my taste and mood on that night is a different story!
and also...when people come up asking for all the mainstream stuff that i own but don't have with me and didn't feel like bringing that night...i can just say, sorry, that' s a great tune but i left that one at home...rather than, well, ok, i have it on my harddrive...hold on.
Whassup Patrick! I actually engage in a similar process except instead of picking records to play I pick records to rip. I just don't have the time to do it every day and inevitably there are new acquisitions that haven't been converted yet. I also bring some records as back-up/things I didn't have time to rip.
I had my laptop freeze when I did breakface! but when I did another, longer, gig it was fine. Wonder if it's something in the room? SPOOKY
I prefer to have as many songs at my fingertips as possible, you never know what idea will pop into your head and plenty of times I've gone to a crate to find "oh shit I left that one at home" or "damn I didn't think I would want to play that". Honestly that shit still happens with Serato but not as much!
Lastly, the look I get from a DJ who just lugged three full crates of records up two flights of stairs, or the dude who just cue-burned his $100+ record, all makes me know that I made a good decision switching.
And shit, I don't even DJ more than once a month or so.
Comments
And I'm a bit worried about this myself. But I think as many of the proponents have also said, this is merely a shift that was always gonna happen, and a) if you ignore it, you will eventually be left behind (one way or another), and b) it will actually allow for an extension of creativity, even as it also lowers the bar for medicority at another level.
I saw dude at the Goodfoot gig and wondered what he thought of my dildo. (ayozers)
There's alot of shit I want to say about this topic but don't feel like typing it all right now.
Bottom line, Serato is a blessing (and a curse for some), times are changing, everyone will adapt and deal with it.
All one has to do it go through the new release section at picadillyrecords.co.uk & see what i mean. A definite resurgence of 7" singles.
Some weeks there are more rock vinyl that their is hip hop/house/reggae, etc...
Even rock mags cilrculation are going up while 'dance' magazines are going down.
The UK's DnB/Hip hop mag Undercover just stopped printing while Kerrang & NME have had rises.
The rock vinyl rise is coinciding with this increased interest.
I do believe the dj/vinyl culture in Europe is very different from the USA.
And it must be said that not evreyone who buys vinyl is a dj. Many just like the aesthetic.
Some prefer to hold a book than scroll on a laptop when reading a novel.
And yes, where are these locations that have indy music available for MP3 download?
Most people I know who have Final Scratch/Serato are still pretty much converting their newly bought vinyl into wav/aif files. Major label is different.
Music seems to be less & less important to people nowadays. The convenience has turned it into sonic wallpaper.
The appreciation of an ID tag can never replace the emotional impact of a record, its cover & then its contents.
I know what I really prefer...
This...
Over this...
It's like me wanting Dizzy Bull's new tracks on wax. I have them now on MP3 (rough form), but it just won't hit me as hard as it would if I had them on vinyl. I can't explain why. Theoretically it should be the same. But then i tend to see films in the cinema than on DVD. The experience is different. For me.
what's up, tokyo tom? you still in europe? anyway, i don't know, i got this heated toilet seat with a tv i'm about to put up on ebay but if you wanna trade for that archie whitewater drop me a note.
They don't.. They make it from sueing people now. A few thoughts...
- The RIAA just came out now and said they believe it's illegal to rip CD's that you own. Look for even more cases of them taking people to court.
Is there anyone here that has ever worked for a major distro company?
IE: Watts, MCM, Pearl (Even around anymore?) TRC, Unique, etc etc etc
I'd like to hear their thoughts.
Cause, here are mine. Major vinyl distribution will be almost done in less than five years. Sure there will be small companies doing it. But majors will close up shop. IMO...
And soon after, there will be very few shops with a large selection of new records.
Labels have mostly been doing vinyl for one reason and one reason only the past 10 years... Promotion.
Records will be mainly a collectro type deal. People need to come to gribs with this.
Can you burn them for me on CDR's later on?
Seriously though, it's true i guess...but the vinyl will stay too...I hope
I find using Serato really slows me down, partly because I'm still adjusting to the process of scrolling through crates, but more so because it requires a lot more EQing than playing off 12"s. For 12"s, the mastering seems pretty standard-- provided it's not a Timbaland production, it's probably mixed properly to knock in a club and all you have to do is worry about the volume levels. By contrast, many of the mp3s I have are ripped from god knows where, so I have to EQ to compensate not only for the compression inherent in the format, but also for the quirks in however a given track was converted to mp3.
Considering I look at a computer screen all day & night for design/work, the last thing I want to do is look at another bloody screen when having some fun deejaying.
I couldn't think of anything worse & depressing. I might as well just Tron myself now.
The punters don't give a shit what format we use anyway.
That's funny. A friend of mine who went to the party Oliver is describing told me it was wack because everyone was just standing around watching the DJs, rather than dancing. Sadly, that's seems to be how SF crowds react to name hip hop DJs-- I remember seeing Jazzy Jeff a few years back at Storyville and he was tearing up party routines, but there were all these a-holes just standing around watching him like he was doing body tricks or something.
My favorite Serato function is using cue-points in internal mode, which allows you to do a lot of stuff you can do with doubles (e.g., back-spinning) as well as a lot of things you can't (jumping around within the song super-fast and stuttering the beat) just by pressing a few buttons.
In all fairness though, the evening was an impromptu Dilla tribute night - in other words, all Dilla, all night long - and no offense to Jay Dee but the majority of his songs were not exactly made for people to go dumb on, you know? That plus people like J. Rocc were directly exhorting to the crowd and it was a performance more than a "yo, let me rock this party and get people dancing by spinning some Slum Village" vibe. I didn't mind it but straight up: the night was not intended (I think) for people to cut the rug, especially not when the DJs were either 1) spinning >90BPM grooves and 2) stopping every 3 minutes to shout out, "this goes out to Dilla!!!" Again, that's exactly what I expected and why I went that evening: I didn't want to dance so much as soak in all the Jay Dee tracks. I can understand why other folks might have been disappointed but seriously - an 8 piece Madlib band (who were the original headliners) does not say, "boogie on down" to me.
we need to find you an archie whitewater so you can get off my balls. put a note in the "wants" section. as for the toilet seat, i'm golden, doc. got me a nice american standard. infact, now that i have this trusty laptop for serato, i can write you emails whilst sitting upon it.
i'm hopefully coming down to va in early march. you gonna be on a 40 hour shift at the hospital?
Source?
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004409.php
Ugh - this is why the double-negative is such a
grammatical abomination...this sentence makes no sense.
But when translated into proper English, it's true, they are
claiming back-up CD'sfor personal use are copyright infringements...
...good lord...
wouldn't the same have held true for these?
I'm sure you've seen those inner sleeves on 80's
records, that have the skull-and-crossbones logo using
a cassette tape, and they say "HOME TAPING IS A CRIME"
or something like that...the RIAA been shook over this shit
from day one, but they need to respect the difference between
streetcorner bootleggers mass-producing inferior copies for pennies
and johnny american just dubbing some shit he paid for to use in his ride.
Well, Mini-Discs caught on mostly among radio station workers and audiophiles. It never became the New Mass Medium that Sony hoped for. Then, the mp3 dropped.
But let's remember: The RIAA is not a government department, and the government disagrees with the RIAA on this issue. This will remain the case until Big Music uses their lobbyist payola to change the Feds' mind. Unfortunately, they can still file thousands of frivolous lawsuits and appeals to wrench money from the random young and eldery in the meantime.
they did some amazing stuff with serato...just creating doubles on the fly and juggling was so dope. and yet, the system crashed at least three times in the night! and that's much worse than a record skipping...that means complete silence for over a minute and that's not a good look!
(no disrespect to my dj partners that night...again, they were killin' it with serato, just a critique of serato in general).
another thing to consider...and maybe this has already been mentioned...but for me, a big part of the art of djing is the selection process you go thru before the gig...i'm talking about going thru your collection and picking what you want to play that night. i think that's much better than having everything at your fingertips because it's like a painter selecting what paints to use...it's not like the painter cares to have every hue of paint he's ever used in the past right there with him to make this new painting.
ok, maybe that's a weird analogy but i really feel that since i can only carry so many records with me to a gig, it makes me really pick what i want to play that night and that in turn reflects my taste and mood at that particular time which then comes across when dj'ing. whether people in the club care to hear my taste and mood on that night is a different story!
and also...when people come up asking for all the mainstream stuff that i own but don't have with me and didn't feel like bringing that night...i can just say, sorry, that' s a great tune but i left that one at home...rather than, well, ok, i have it on my harddrive...hold on.
That responsibilty would lie in your hands, not the Serato system.
Uh, I think Matt***'s point is that this is an issue inherent in using MP3s to DJ with. When you grab vinyl, you can be reasonably assured that the mastering will be consistent and predictable. When you try to play out with MP3s, you can't just pull a file and have that same expectation.
Sure, you COULD make sure during the conversion/burning phase that the mastering/fidelity is as perfect as you tweak it but that's a lot more work than, you know, taking the plastic off a new 12" and slapping that sucker down on the platter.
My point is that if you're ripping stuff yourself with iTunes/LAME, you can be assured of a high quality conversion. If you're pulling stuff off the internet via Limewire/Acquisition/Soulseek, you need to check how that mp3 sounds before you play it in the club.
Whassup Patrick! I actually engage in a similar process except instead of picking records to play I pick records to rip. I just don't have the time to do it every day and inevitably there are new acquisitions that haven't been converted yet. I also bring some records as back-up/things I didn't have time to rip.
I had my laptop freeze when I did breakface! but when I did another, longer, gig it was fine. Wonder if it's something in the room? SPOOKY
I prefer to have as many songs at my fingertips as possible, you never know what idea will pop into your head and plenty of times I've gone to a crate to find "oh shit I left that one at home" or "damn I didn't think I would want to play that". Honestly that shit still happens with Serato but not as much!
Lastly, the look I get from a DJ who just lugged three full crates of records up two flights of stairs, or the dude who just cue-burned his $100+ record, all makes me know that I made a good decision switching.
And shit, I don't even DJ more than once a month or so.