And I'm kinda sad there hasn't been more europeans adding their 2 cent to this thread. The discussion seems a little amputated with just americans present.
DOR, HAZ, PEK, Danno and I are Canadian. just sayin.
And I'm kinda sad there hasn't been more europeans adding their 2 cent to this thread. The discussion seems a little amputated with just americans present.
DOR, HAZ, PEK, Danno and I are Canadian. just sayin.
DOH!!
Of course, I know this. Guess I'm doing the 'one big grey mass' thing myself now. No disrespect to my canadian strutters. Sorry
Just wanted to say how much I like the long post. I hope my post wasn't interpreted as anti-danish, because so much of what you wrote about is very apparent in Sweden, too. Basically, I try to be an optimist. I think attitudes change over time for the better. You can't avoid people from other backgrounds forever. Just hope there's not another world war brewing.
And I'm kinda sad there hasn't been more europeans adding their 2 cent to this thread. The discussion seems a little amputated with just americans present.
That would be me. I'm sorry, but I just didn't have the energy to write a similar post as yours.
In brief, I think this is appalling. Jyllands-Posten can suck en pik from the back with a crazy straw.
I like being in Denmark, but I don't like the underlying (maybe not so underlying?) racism that goes on in day-to-day life there. I really hate that the right-winged extremists are gaining following too.
Europe seems to be really tensing up, as a whole, for the new millenium.
And just out of curiosity, how many of you have been to a Mosque or been around Muslims?
Unfortunately, my personal experience, which I have related here before is one of a close friend who's son is now being called "American Taliban #2". The facts of this case are that Adam Gadahn joined a Mosque in California, was recruited for acts of terrorism, was sent overseas for training and came back to attempt to perform acts of terrorism. He is still on the FBI's Most Wanted list and my friends life and family have been torn apart by these actions.
Should I judge all Muslims based on this one case, of course not. However, I do now believe that at least a portion of this religion has organized for the sole purpose of killing people in Western Civilization. Is it 100, or 1,000 or 1,000,000 people?? I don't know.
I do know that comparing this terrorist movement within Islam to a few nutty Abortion Clinic bombers is ridiculous. This is an organized, well funded, military-like attack on a large group of INNOCENT people all round the world.
Let me throw out this scenario.....a Koresh-like group of religious zealots based and funded out of the U.S. go on a rampage and kill 1,000's of people around the world, based on their distorted view of Christianity.
1) Who would the responsibility of stopping such actions fall upon(I'd say the U.S. Government)
and
2) If the U.S. did nothing to stop it wouldn't Military action by those who are being attacked be acceptable.(I say yes)
And isn't the statement by Bin Laden's right hand man about there being Peace if Bush would convert to Islam mean that this is STRICTLY a religious battle and that issues like Oil, Morals, and Occupation are nothing but sidenotes??
I try to see all sides of the issue.....but the truth is that for every Muslim Leader that speaks out against the Terrorism I can find two that supports it.
If you'd like I can link MANY articles where supposed "Muslim Leaders", even here in the U.S. and the UK, support Bin Laden and his actions....please don't make me do it.
I've heard MANY Christian leaders, of MANy different denominations denounce these Abortion Bombings....where are the Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorism that Muslims are perpetrating around the globe??
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
I've heard MANY Christian leaders, of MANy different denominations denounce these Abortion Bombings....where are the Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorism that Muslims are perpetrating around the globe??
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
If I spoke to a Catholic Priest who told me he supported child molestation I'd turn his ass in, at least to be investigated, in a friggin second.
And just out of curiosity, how many of you have been to a Mosque or been around Muslims?
Unfortunately, my personal experience, which I have related here before is one of a close friend who's son is now being called "American Taliban #2". The facts of this case are that Adam Gadahn joined a Mosque in California, was recruited for acts of terrorism, was sent overseas for training and came back to attempt to perform acts of terrorism. He is still on the FBI's Most Wanted list and my friends life and family have been torn apart by these actions.
Should I judge all Muslims based on this one case, of course not. However, I do now believe that at least a portion of this religion has organized for the sole purpose of killing people in Western Civilization. Is it 100, or 1,000 or 1,000,000 people?? I don't know.
I do know that comparing this terrorist movement within Islam to a few nutty Abortion Clinic bombers is ridiculous. This is an organized, well funded, military-like attack on a large group of INNOCENT people all round the world.
Let me throw out this scenario.....a Koresh-like group of religious zealots based and funded out of the U.S. go on a rampage and kill 1,000's of people around the world, based on their distorted view of Christianity.
1) Who would the responsibility of stopping such actions fall upon(I'd say the U.S. Government)
and
2) If the U.S. did nothing to stop it wouldn't Military action by those who are being attacked be acceptable.(I say yes)
And isn't the statement by Bin Laden's right hand man about there being Peace if Bush would convert to Islam mean that this is STRICTLY a religious battle and that issues like Oil, Morals, and Occupation are nothing but sidenotes??
I try to see all sides of the issue.....but the truth is that for every Muslim Leader that speaks out against the Terrorism I can find two that supports it.
If you'd like I can link MANY articles where supposed "Muslim Leaders", even here in the U.S. and the UK, support Bin Laden and his actions....please don't make me do it.
i am through hitting my head against the wall. i will leave this in much more capable hands.
if this is how you feel best about seeing the world and the people in it, then that's all there is to it.
i am depressed and sad and angry, but also feel it is important to know just what we are up against.
I've heard MANY Christian leaders, of MANy different denominations denounce these Abortion Bombings....where are the Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorism that Muslims are perpetrating around the globe??
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
Thankfully, in this country you can't be arrested for expressing your personal support for something criminal (in absence of any evidence that you plan to do it yourself).
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
If I spoke to a Catholic Priest who told me he supported child molestation I'd turn his ass in, at least to be investigated, in a friggin second.
So you maintain that someone has the right to print racist/religiously prejudiced artwork in a major national newspaper in the name of free speech but you want me to turn in a guy on the street who says that he supports suicide bombings and/or terrorist attacks? Your support for free speech is a bit biased, isn't it?
I've heard MANY Christian leaders, of MANy different denominations denounce these Abortion Bombings....where are the Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorism that Muslims are perpetrating around the globe??
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
Thankfully, in this country you can't be arrested for expressing your personal support for something criminal (in absence of any evidence that you plan to do it yourself).
Although you can now apparently be held indefinitely without being charged...
I've heard MANY Christian leaders, of MANy different denominations denounce these Abortion Bombings....where are the Muslim leaders who are denouncing the terrorism that Muslims are perpetrating around the globe??
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
Thankfully, in this country you can't be arrested for expressing your personal support for something criminal (in absence of any evidence that you plan to do it yourself).
Absolutely....and in this country we have the freedom to print and distribute literature about where and how to find children to be victims of molestation. That doesn't make it right.
I believe that if you support, advocate or encourage the deaths of innocent people you have no place in a civilized society.
I'm depressed and sad as well....there are people being killed around the world everyday......whether it be Military deaths, 20,000 murders here in the U.S. every year or evil dictators killing in the name of their "God".
I have friends who, say, support Palestinians in the struggle with Israel. What I'd like for you (and others) to take away from discussions like this is that, to someone like that, it's not terrorism - it's war. What we are doing in Iraq, to them, that is terrorism.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
If I spoke to a Catholic Priest who told me he supported child molestation I'd turn his ass in, at least to be investigated, in a friggin second.
So you maintain that someone has the right to print racist/religiously prejudiced artwork [/b] in a major national newspaper in the name of free speech but you want me to turn in a guy on the street who says that he supports suicide bombings and/or terrorist attacks? Your support for free speech is a bit biased, isn't it?
Okay, I've read DeJeans post and I understand what he is saying. I'm in Holland and similar processes are in play. But regardless of the context, why would these cartoons be racist? I'm saying these drawings are put on this board with the simple comment that they are racist (Guzzo). I think the artists who made them deserve better than that. Some of them are actually commenting on the event itself (the boy in front of the chalk board, the cartoonist shielding off his desk, Mohammed telling his soldiers that it's just a Danish cartoon, the guy being hit by an apple saying "PR stunt"), others can be interpreted in different ways (the portret of Mohammed with a bomb on his head can be read in several ways) and still some others are just cryptic or your basic cartoon (we ran out of vigins). As I said earlier, in my opinion only one is really racist and one other is really religeously prejudiced (Mohammed with devils horns). I'm not saying I like these cartoons but such an accusation needs to be backed up with some analyses or arguments.
This whole thing reminds of the Rushdie affair which was as random and ill-informed as this one.
For Pakistan and Saudi to flex their international muscle over a poor taste cartoon in a foreign newspaper is just ridiculous and Fogh was right to offer personal rather than a official condemnation of the cartoons. The press is not a mouthpiece for the state and the Fogh has no place apologising for what an independent newspaper prints.
It's pretty much exactly the same story as Salman Rushdie's fatwa 15 years ago. Muslims in Bradford here in the UK protested about the book satirising the life of Mohammed, and the outrage quickly spread to other Muslim communities around the world with fatwas, boycotts, embargos, riots and major diplomatic rows ensuing.
The government of the day stood up for Rushdie and rightly defied the international protests and refused to ban the book or censure Rushdie over claims of religious hatred. Meanwhile the current government is voting tonight on a bill saying roughly that anything that causes religious offence could be a criminal offence. So no more jokes about the Pope shitting in the woods and bears being Catholic.
You should be able to print these things without fear of an international incident but maybe a little editorial judgement should have been exercised here.
I have friends who, say, support Palestinians in the struggle with Israel. What I'd like for you (and others) to take away from discussions like this is that, to someone like that, it's not terrorism - it's war. What we are doing in Iraq, to them, that is terrorism.
The US presence in Iraq, whatever you may think of it, is no more a terrorist action than any act of violent aggression. I say this with the conventional meaning of ???terrorism??? in mind, which I???m sure you???ll agree generally means a systematic use of terror, particularly as a means of coercion. Countenancing dubious positions such as this is not productive. You think the US presence in Iraq is illegal? Fine. You think the US presence in Iraq is morally reprehensible? OK. But calling American terrorists on account of Iraq is only advancing a questionable ideological position at the expense of any meaningful dialogue, to say nothing of a solution.
I have friends who, say, support Palestinians in the struggle with Israel. What I'd like for you (and others) to take away from discussions like this is that, to someone like that, it's not terrorism - it's war. What we are doing in Iraq, to them, that is terrorism.
The US presence in Iraq, whatever you may think of it, is no more a terrorist action than any act of violent aggression. I say this with the conventional meaning of ???terrorism??? in mind, which I???m sure you???ll agree generally means a systematic use of terror, particularly as a means of coercion. Countenancing dubious positions such as this is not productive. You think the US presence in Iraq is illegal? Fine. You think the US presence in Iraq is morally reprehensible? OK. But calling American terrorists on account of Iraq is only advancing a questionable ideological position at the expense of any meaningful dialogue, to say nothing of a solution.
No, that wasn't my point - I was saying that these are all, as you said, "acts of agression".
Generique, and Flomotion, I agree completely. My timeline was strictly for the information of people who weren't filled in on the course of events, keeping it factual. My following sentiments were an attempt to nudge at the roots of why such a seemingly miniscule incident has caused all this commotion.
I don't think Fogh should have apologized either. I do however think that there has been a general lack of respect and dignity in the public discourse in my country for many years, and I see this incident as a move in the wrong direction. People in DK are speaking from their respective trenches and we're not going to get closer to each other if we don't stop this childish level of communication. I can only speak with conviction on what goes on where I live, which is why I wanted to hear what guys like you had to say about it, bringing different experiences to the table.
Again, let me point out that I'm trying to speak about where this originated before it was spread out to the international community. What has happened since november is truly beyond ridiculous. I would be very sad to see this end like the fatwah on Rushdie, Hirsi Ali or the assassination of Theo Van Gogh.
Mjukis -> no, I didn't take offense to what you said. You are absolutely right. Immigration laws are extremely tight in Denmark.
DesOne -> I can sense you know what I'm talking about when I speak about the latent/not-so latent ugliness here. It's hard for me to explain to people who haven't lived here for a longer period. Of course there are plenty of good people, but there are definetely some dark spots in the danish spirit. I've travelled all sorts of different places, and whenever I come back I'm amazed at how petty, inhospitable, rude, self-righteous and reserved we can be.
Meanwhile the current government is voting tonight on a bill saying roughly that anything that causes religious offence could be a criminal offence. [/b]
Regardless of whether this is being done out of Political Correctness or Fear it's fucked.
regardless of the context, why would these cartoons be racist? I'm saying these drawings are put on this board with the simple comment that they are racist (Guzzo). I think the artists who made them deserve better than that.
I noticed my name came up here and I don't remember saying they are racist as much as I siad they express hate and its just in bad taste to do something mocking religious beliefs and practices.
However you want to slice it drawing a picture of muhammad is considered wrong in the muslim faith, adding timebombs to his garments is offensive and displaying a series of these in a respected new publication is somewhere nearing the need to get your ass whooped.
Bottom line: don't disrespect others, and if you do expect them to be upset
Meanwhile the current government is voting tonight on a bill saying roughly that anything that causes religious offence could be a criminal offence. [/b]
Regardless of whether this is being done out of Political Correctness or Fear it's fucked.
Thankfully the government failed to get the legislation through by one vote last night. Ironically, Tony Blair didn't turn up to vote himself otherwise he might have won.
I find it ironic that Saudi Arabia - a country that ridicules even the most basic human rights - is recalling ambassadors because of a comic printed in a Scandinavian newspaper.
regardless of the context, why would these cartoons be racist? I'm saying these drawings are put on this board with the simple comment that they are racist (Guzzo). I think the artists who made them deserve better than that.
I noticed my name came up here and I don't remember saying they are racist as much as I siad they express hate and its just in bad taste to do something mocking religious beliefs and practices.
However you want to slice it drawing a picture of muhammad is considered wrong in the muslim faith, adding timebombs to his garments is offensive and displaying a series of these in a respected new publication is somewhere nearing the need to get your ass whooped.
Bottom line: don't disrespect others, and if you do expect them to be upset
Okay, I have read back the thread and you're right, you're only saying people should read back this thread before entering any racial discussion. Still, you say they express hate. Are we talking about the same cartoons? I don't think a cartoonist will be able to work or will be very interesting when he doesn't disrespect to a certain extend. If you think these drawings are crossing the line, I think you haven't seen many cartoons in your life.
adding timebombs to his garments is offensive and displaying a series of these in a respected new publication is somewhere nearing the need to get your ass whooped.
This is what I mean: you are not looking at these cartoons. There's no Mohammed in timebomb garment. There's a fairly cryptic and artistic drawing of Mohammed with a bomb on his head. It might be saying: Islam is explosive right know, or certain terrorists are blowing up the very religion they say they are fighting for. As I described earlier, many of these drawings are commenting on the whole event itself.
One can care very little about Islam's prohibition on images of Muhammed and still be offended by what is clearly a racist and xenophobic cartoon campaign.
Faux Rillez said this.
I pitty anyone who thinks he or she is to good or holy for satire.
I understand the crazy dynamics in this affair, but I think it's very unfair to stop looking at the source of the conflict (the cartoons themselves) or not look at them at all. If you think asses need to be whooped, you're basically disregarding the savety of the artists who were brave enough to participate in the event. I'm glad Rushdies ass didn't get whooped yet.
Okay, so the day after the Jyllands-Posten offices were evacuated due to a bomb threat, today the French paper France Soir has published the cartoons.
The France Soir daily said it had published the cartoons in the name of freedom of expression and to fight religious intolerance, saying a secular country like France could not be bound by the precepts of any religion.
Under a headline "Yes, we have the right to caricature God", the paper ran a front page cartoon with Buddha, the Christian and Jewish Gods and the Prophet Mohammad sitting on a cloud above Earth, with the Christian God saying: "Don't complain Mohammad, we've all been caricatured here."
"The publication of 12 cartoons in the Danish press has shocked the Muslim world for whom the representation of Allah and his prophet is banned," the newspaper said in a front page comment piece.
"But because no religious dogma can impose its view on a democratic and secular society, France Soir publishes the incriminated cartoons.
More than 300 students demonstrated in Pakistan, chanting "Death to France!" and "Death to Denmark!" [/b]
I have been told, read, and would like to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion.
So can someone explain to me why everytime something happens that they don't like, in this case a cartoon, large groups of Muslims cry out for the death of people??
More than 300 students demonstrated in Pakistan, chanting "Death to France!" and "Death to Denmark!" [/b]
I have been told, read, and would like to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion.
So can someone explain to me why everytime something happens that they don't like, in this case a cartoon, large groups of Muslims cry out for the death of people??
as Im sure you know the base word of Islam is Salam AKA peace.
those 400 angry protesters do not represent the entire religion.
besides the religion is based on the Koran and other written works, its only when man manipulates those writings that things like a religion with peace in its name can lose its meaning to some.
Comments
DOR, HAZ, PEK, Danno and I are Canadian. just sayin.
DOH!!
Of course, I know this. Guess I'm doing the 'one big grey mass' thing myself now. No disrespect to my canadian strutters. Sorry
Basically, I try to be an optimist. I think attitudes change over time for the better. You can't avoid people from other backgrounds forever. Just hope there's not another world war brewing.
That would be me. I'm sorry, but I just didn't have the energy to write a similar post as yours.
In brief, I think this is appalling. Jyllands-Posten can suck en pik from the back with a crazy straw.
I like being in Denmark, but I don't like the underlying (maybe not so underlying?) racism that goes on in day-to-day life there. I really hate that the right-winged extremists are gaining following too.
Europe seems to be really tensing up, as a whole, for the new millenium.
Unfortunately, my personal experience, which I have related here before is one of a close friend who's son is now being called "American Taliban #2". The facts of this case are that Adam Gadahn joined a Mosque in California, was recruited for acts of terrorism, was sent overseas for training and came back to attempt to perform acts of terrorism. He is still on the FBI's Most Wanted list and my friends life and family have been torn apart by these actions.
Should I judge all Muslims based on this one case, of course not. However, I do now believe that at least a portion of this religion has organized for the sole purpose of killing people in Western Civilization. Is it 100, or 1,000 or 1,000,000 people?? I don't know.
I do know that comparing this terrorist movement within Islam to a few nutty Abortion Clinic bombers is ridiculous. This is an organized, well funded, military-like attack on a large group of INNOCENT people all round the world.
Let me throw out this scenario.....a Koresh-like group of religious zealots based and funded out of the U.S. go on a rampage and kill 1,000's of people around the world, based on their distorted view of Christianity.
1) Who would the responsibility of stopping such actions fall upon(I'd say the U.S. Government)
and
2) If the U.S. did nothing to stop it wouldn't Military action by those who are being attacked be acceptable.(I say yes)
And isn't the statement by Bin Laden's right hand man about there being Peace if Bush would convert to Islam mean that this is STRICTLY a religious battle and that issues like Oil, Morals, and Occupation are nothing but sidenotes??
I try to see all sides of the issue.....but the truth is that for every Muslim Leader that speaks out against the Terrorism I can find two that supports it.
If you'd like I can link MANY articles where supposed "Muslim Leaders", even here in the U.S. and the UK, support Bin Laden and his actions....please don't make me do it.
Are you serious? I can't really think of a time when there's been a major terrorist attack (that I've seen) which hasn't immediately been followed by local Imams, Clerics, or University Professors speaking out against the use of violence in God's name. Especially here in the bay area with local newsteams. Usually they'll go to a mosque to get the reactions of how locals Muslims feel, and they always seem to express disapproval for such violence.
Aside from that, as someone who's a part of the Arab community, I can tell you I've personally talked with hundreds of Muslims who also don't support the use of violence in the name of religion. I've also talked to extremists who favor suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, but their number is far, FAR exceeded by those who look down upon it.
If you've spoken to extremists, in San Francisco, who advocate Suicide Bombs and Terrorist Attacks....how many of them have you turned into the authorities???
If I spoke to a Catholic Priest who told me he supported child molestation I'd turn his ass in, at least to be investigated, in a friggin second.
i am through hitting my head against the wall. i will leave this in much more capable hands.
if this is how you feel best about seeing the world and the people in it, then that's all there is to it.
i am depressed and sad and angry, but also feel it is important to know just what we are up against.
Thankfully, in this country you can't be arrested for expressing your personal support for something criminal (in absence of any evidence that you plan to do it yourself).
So you maintain that someone has the right to print racist/religiously prejudiced artwork in a major national newspaper in the name of free speech but you want me to turn in a guy on the street who says that he supports suicide bombings and/or terrorist attacks? Your support for free speech is a bit biased, isn't it?
Although you can now apparently be held indefinitely without being charged...
Absolutely....and in this country we have the freedom to print and distribute literature about where and how to find children to be victims of molestation. That doesn't make it right.
I believe that if you support, advocate or encourage the deaths of innocent people you have no place in a civilized society.
I'm depressed and sad as well....there are people being killed around the world everyday......whether it be Military deaths, 20,000 murders here in the U.S. every year or evil dictators killing in the name of their "God".
Very sad indeed.
Okay, I've read DeJeans post and I understand what he is saying. I'm in Holland and similar processes are in play. But regardless of the context, why would these cartoons be racist? I'm saying these drawings are put on this board with the simple comment that they are racist (Guzzo). I think the artists who made them deserve better than that. Some of them are actually commenting on the event itself (the boy in front of the chalk board, the cartoonist shielding off his desk, Mohammed telling his soldiers that it's just a Danish cartoon, the guy being hit by an apple saying "PR stunt"), others can be interpreted in different ways (the portret of Mohammed with a bomb on his head can be read in several ways) and still some others are just cryptic or your basic cartoon (we ran out of vigins). As I said earlier, in my opinion only one is really racist and one other is really religeously prejudiced (Mohammed with devils horns). I'm not saying I like these cartoons but such an accusation needs to be backed up with some analyses or arguments.
This whole thing reminds of the Rushdie affair which was as random and ill-informed as this one.
It's pretty much exactly the same story as Salman Rushdie's fatwa 15 years ago. Muslims in Bradford here in the UK protested about the book satirising the life of Mohammed, and the outrage quickly spread to other Muslim communities around the world with fatwas, boycotts, embargos, riots and major diplomatic rows ensuing.
The government of the day stood up for Rushdie and rightly defied the international protests and refused to ban the book or censure Rushdie over claims of religious hatred. Meanwhile the current government is voting tonight on a bill saying roughly that anything that causes religious offence could be a criminal offence. So no more jokes about the Pope shitting in the woods and bears being Catholic.
You should be able to print these things without fear of an international incident but maybe a little editorial judgement should have been exercised here.
The US presence in Iraq, whatever you may think of it, is no more a terrorist action than any act of violent aggression. I say this with the conventional meaning of ???terrorism??? in mind, which I???m sure you???ll agree generally means a systematic use of terror, particularly as a means of coercion. Countenancing dubious positions such as this is not productive. You think the US presence in Iraq is illegal? Fine. You think the US presence in Iraq is morally reprehensible? OK. But calling American terrorists on account of Iraq is only advancing a questionable ideological position at the expense of any meaningful dialogue, to say nothing of a solution.
...unless it's Muslims or Arabs that are killed, in which case it's terrorism again.
Get it?
No, that wasn't my point - I was saying that these are all, as you said, "acts of agression".
I don't think Fogh should have apologized either. I do however think that there has been a general lack of respect and dignity in the public discourse in my country for many years, and I see this incident as a move in the wrong direction. People in DK are speaking from their respective trenches and we're not going to get closer to each other if we don't stop this childish level of communication. I can only speak with conviction on what goes on where I live, which is why I wanted to hear what guys like you had to say about it, bringing different experiences to the table.
Again, let me point out that I'm trying to speak about where this originated before it was spread out to the international community. What has happened since november is truly beyond ridiculous. I would be very sad to see this end like the fatwah on Rushdie, Hirsi Ali or the assassination of Theo Van Gogh.
Mjukis -> no, I didn't take offense to what you said. You are absolutely right. Immigration laws are extremely tight in Denmark.
DesOne -> I can sense you know what I'm talking about when I speak about the latent/not-so latent ugliness here. It's hard for me to explain to people who haven't lived here for a longer period. Of course there are plenty of good people, but there are definetely some dark spots in the danish spirit. I've travelled all sorts of different places, and whenever I come back I'm amazed at how petty, inhospitable, rude, self-righteous and reserved we can be.
Regardless of whether this is being done out of Political Correctness or Fear it's fucked.
I noticed my name came up here and I don't remember saying they are racist as much as I siad they express hate and its just in bad taste to do something mocking religious beliefs and practices.
However you want to slice it drawing a picture of muhammad is considered wrong in the muslim faith, adding timebombs to his garments is offensive and displaying a series of these in a respected new publication is somewhere nearing the need to get your ass whooped.
Bottom line: don't disrespect others, and if you do expect them to be upset
Thankfully the government failed to get the legislation through by one vote last night. Ironically, Tony Blair didn't turn up to vote himself otherwise he might have won.
Fundamentalists scare me.
Okay, I have read back the thread and you're right, you're only saying people should read back this thread before entering any racial discussion. Still, you say they express hate. Are we talking about the same cartoons? I don't think a cartoonist will be able to work or will be very interesting when he doesn't disrespect to a certain extend. If you think these drawings are crossing the line, I think you haven't seen many cartoons in your life.
This is what I mean: you are not looking at these cartoons. There's no Mohammed in timebomb garment. There's a fairly cryptic and artistic drawing of Mohammed with a bomb on his head. It might be saying: Islam is explosive right know, or certain terrorists are blowing up the very religion they say they are fighting for. As I described earlier, many of these drawings are commenting on the whole event itself.
Faux Rillez said this.
I pitty anyone who thinks he or she is to good or holy for satire.
I understand the crazy dynamics in this affair, but I think it's very unfair to stop looking at the source of the conflict (the cartoons themselves) or not look at them at all. If you think asses need to be whooped, you're basically disregarding the savety of the artists who were brave enough to participate in the event. I'm glad Rushdies ass didn't get whooped yet.
Full story.
I have been told, read, and would like to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion.
So can someone explain to me why everytime something happens that they don't like, in this case a cartoon, large groups of Muslims cry out for the death of people??
as Im sure you know the base word of Islam is Salam AKA peace.
those 400 angry protesters do not represent the entire religion.
besides the religion is based on the Koran and other written works, its only when man manipulates those writings that things like a religion with peace in its name can lose its meaning to some.