he "Hey, we'll feel free to piss on Muhammad's grave if we like" attitude is kind of disturbing.
I'm seeing more of a "we'll feel free to draw a picture, write a story, or create a depiction of pissing on Muhammad's grave if we like" attitude here. BIG difference.
Besides, that "Go back! We ran out of virgins!" cartoon was hilarious.
I mean really. If God, Allah, Jehovah, YHWH or whoever doesn't have a sense of humor, then send me to hell. Satan probably throws better parties.
This thread kind of makes me sick. The "Hey, we'll feel free to piss on Muhammad's grave if we like" attitude is kind of disturbing.
i dont give a fuck about muhammad or jesus or mary, so nothing really offends me when it comes to that
I don't know if there are any devout Muslims on this board. Terdstream, you sure do pick your battles - if this was anti-gay would you feel differently?
johnny when it came to the gay thing all I is said using the term fag and gay as in shitty was it makes you look like your in middle school which i suspect some never really got out of, but i would never want a text editor or a ban on those words, and i have the right to call em out on that shit
i believe people have the right to draw pictures that offend muslims, christians, and jews, and if they do so you and i have the right to call them racist or anti-christian or anti-semite and we have the right not to buy their shit or support them, but that does not give me or you the right to cause physical harm on someone else
A very large portion of the world doesnt have a sense of humor about religion. The cartoon is basically a taunt to a bunch of people who are already incredibly pissed off.
i had a friend in high school that used to walk up to old folks and say "cunt!" really loud in their direction, or "fuck!"... whatever seemed most offensive. last i heard, he was in AA, and had been arrested after trying to sell his ass for some heroin. people who go out of their way to be asses deserve whatever repercussions come their way[/b], though it sucks for denmark.
Yah, I would say it really sucks for some cat that works for Denmark Food company that gets run up on by angry Muslims. He don't even work for the paper that ran the offending cartoon, much less could he have authored said offending cartoon.
This thread kind of makes me sick. The "Hey, we'll feel free to piss on Muhammad's grave if we like" attitude is kind of disturbing.
I didn't in any post say this was personally offensive or that the artist couldn't do it, merely that it was not very smart and a "fuck up".
these seem like contridictory statements.
Maybe it is not smart. But the fact stands that people can hate or "piss" on anyones grave. Its no different than the Jesus pics that people throw around here. Its not different than using "the lords" name in vain.
Thats what I'm saying.
And its also kind of hard to judge the whole thing without seeing the cartoon, and what sort of statement it was trying to make. On the surface it sounds like a pretty fucked up cartoon that implies that all muslims are bomb happy terrorists. Thats not cool. But I can't say one way or the other because I haven't seen it. If there was a cartoon of the Virgin Mary getting fisted by Buddha I would consider that poor taste as well.
But in the end, some dumbass draws a cartoon in a paper and people are going to hold the WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY RESPONSIBLE????? what the fuck?????
I think it's in terrible taste and not a very smart thing to do.
This is the bottom line here. Let me start with where I live, which is what I know best. You've got to understand that there are a lot of people here (immigrants, refugees and their subsequent generations) that have been stigmatized as second-class citizens since the 60s/70s, living a parallel life, watching white danes shit on them culturally, economically, socially. These past years (of course following what's been happening in the rest of the world), things are starting to surface.
The frustrations have been building up, and this is just an unecessary kicking of people who are being pissed on every day. Take it from someone who's experienced this since childhood. Knowing Jyllands-Posten and the views they represent, I know that they just did this to stir up some shit. And they succeeded. The reaction that followed has been way out of proportion, but I think Jyllands-Posten should have used their national (now global) soapbox for debating on a more sober level. That shit was just plain childish.
I don't know if there are any devout Muslims on this board. Terdstream, you sure do pick your battles - if this was anti-gay would you feel differently?
I think you picked the battle there, dude. You're one of the more vocal proponents of free speech on the board. You've always shown a disdain for any type of language policing suggested by others who want to see people stop using words like "fag" or "ghey", a perspective which I've always repected. I don't think a cartoon like that is in good taste, humorous or intelligent, but I don't think it can be censored. Thankfully, though, we are able to express dissatisfaction with its contents.
I think that in most people's minds there is a desire to protect artistic freedom, however there is also a desire not to see a Virgin Mary with dung on it or a Prophet Muhammad with a bomb on his head. I thought the Shitty Mary in the Brooklyn Museum was awful.
I don't think it's OK either way. I think it's in terrible taste and not a very smart thing to do.
I agree that it wasn't smart but these cartoons were published in Denmark not in Saudi Arabia or Egypt so fuck em really. I've travelled all over the Middle East and was very sensitive to the locals. If extremely pious folks (once again of whichever religion) want to live in a place with a free press then they better suck it up. Protest and write letters yes, kidnap and threaten people hell no.
I think that in most people's minds there is a desire to protect artistic freedom, however there is also a desire not to see a Virgin Mary with dung on it or a Prophet Muhammad with a bomb on his head. I thought the Shitty Mary in the Brooklyn Museum was awful.
I don't think it's OK either way. I think it's in terrible taste and not a very smart thing to do.
I agree that it wasn't smart but these cartoons were published in Denmark not in Saudi Arabia or Egypt so fuck em really. I've travelled all over the Middle East and was very sensitive to the locals. If extremely pious folks (once again of whichever religion) want to live in a place with a free press then they better suck it up. Protest and write letters yes, kidnap and threaten people hell no.
Well, there are a lot of problems with the Muslim population in many European countries. It's just not the same as out here, there's a lot of built up anger.
If extremely pious folks (once again of whichever religion) want to live in a place with a free press
Unfortunately, many don't. And I'm not just talking about Muslims.
Oh well, they won't get to see these cartoons then:
BTW I think some of the above are verging on racist but some are on-point and funny. In any event, I'm glad we're not in China where we might not be able to even have this kind of discussion.
Again, these drawings don't mean a damn thing to me, but the timing and taste of the newspaper in question is bad. They ordered these drawings as a special feature, just for the sake of provoking. It's a bit hard to explain, you have to live here to get the context. Anyway I just think it was uneccesary.
Wow, is this one of those raer times that JP and I are on the same page?
how many folks here are muslim or spent time learning about the islamic faith?
There are certain things that you just don't do. It may not make sense to a western society like the US but they play by a different set of rules and they may see some of the things we flip out over as pure trivial.
For those not understanding where JP is coming from try to remove your westernized viewpoint from this story and look into some of the reules and traditions of islam.
Well, see that's the thing - eating halal, praying 5 times a day, making Hajj... those are things that you do if you are a Muslim. Blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is something that no one should do Muslim or not.
Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.
For those not understanding where JP is coming from try to remove your westernized viewpoint from this story and look into some of the reules and traditions of islam.
adam i minored in religious studies, i know what the rules are, i dont give a fuck
For those not understanding where JP is coming from try to remove your westernized viewpoint from this story and look into some of the reules and traditions of islam.
I don't think anybody doesn't understand J*nny's point. The cartoons can easily be interpreted as blasphemous, insulting, racist, etc. especially by those of the Muslim faith. No question. But in a free society, such speech is part of the game. In return, those who are offended should be able to protest* in an equal fashion without fear of persecution.
*Emphasis on SHOULD - the complexities of THE REAL WORLD mean that the minority view doesn't often get full airtime, which is unfortunate.
Well, see that's the thing - eating halal, praying 5 times a day, making Hajj... those are things that you do if you are a Muslim. Blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is something that no one should do Muslim or not.
Well, there's the conflict.
It's a tenet of Islam, but adherants of Islam view it as something else--something that should resonate with people outside of the faith.
Blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is something that no one should do Muslim or not.
Good manners, decency and respect of course dictate the above. But those are in woefully short supply in the world.
Still, CRITIQUING Islam (or any religion including atheism) should never be off the table. Hey, I'm vegetarian and I take that belief seriously. Doesn't mean I should be allowed to firebomb a Halal meat butcher shop because they're infidels in MY eyes.
Well, see that's the thing - eating halal, praying 5 times a day, making Hajj... those are things that you do if you are a Muslim. Blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is something that no one should do Muslim or not.
Well, there's the conflict.
It's a tenet of Islam, but adherants of Islam view it as something else--something that should resonate with people outside of the faith.
I didn't want to murder over the Virgin Mary painting in the Brooklyn Museum years ago, but I recognized it as being a) in very bad taste and b) incredibly offensive to those of Christian faith.
There is a difference between free speech and responsible speech, one that seems lost on most folks.
TORONTO (Hollywood Reporter) - Don Imus has been fingered by Canada's TV watchdog for calling Muslims "brainwashed" and "stinking animals" during a 2004 broadcast that aired here on MSNBC Canada.
Comments
I'm seeing more of a "we'll feel free to draw a picture, write a story, or create a depiction of pissing on Muhammad's grave if we like" attitude here. BIG difference.
Besides, that "Go back! We ran out of virgins!" cartoon was hilarious.
I mean really. If God, Allah, Jehovah, YHWH or whoever doesn't have a sense of humor, then send me to hell. Satan probably throws better parties.
i dont give a fuck about muhammad or jesus or mary, so nothing really offends me when it comes to that
johnny when it came to the gay thing all I is said using the term fag and gay as in shitty was it makes you look like your in middle school which i suspect some never really got out of, but i would never want a text editor or a ban on those words, and i have the right to call em out on that shit
i believe people have the right to draw pictures that offend muslims, christians, and jews, and if they do so you and i have the right to call them racist or anti-christian or anti-semite and we have the right not to buy their shit or support them, but that does not give me or you the right to cause physical harm on someone else
Yah, I would say it really sucks for some cat that works for Denmark Food company that gets run up on by angry Muslims. He don't even work for the paper that ran the offending cartoon, much less could he have authored said offending cartoon.
Thats what I'm saying.
And its also kind of hard to judge the whole thing without seeing the cartoon, and what sort of statement it was trying to make. On the surface it sounds like a pretty fucked up cartoon that implies that all muslims are bomb happy terrorists. Thats not cool. But I can't say one way or the other because I haven't seen it. If there was a cartoon of the Virgin Mary getting fisted by Buddha I would consider that poor taste as well.
But in the end, some dumbass draws a cartoon in a paper and people are going to hold the WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY RESPONSIBLE????? what the fuck?????
I agree. Someone should run up and take Danno3000 hostage
This is the bottom line here. Let me start with where I live, which is what I know best. You've got to understand that there are a lot of people here (immigrants, refugees and their subsequent generations) that have been stigmatized as second-class citizens since the 60s/70s, living a parallel life, watching white danes shit on them culturally, economically, socially. These past years (of course following what's been happening in the rest of the world), things are starting to surface.
The frustrations have been building up, and this is just an unecessary kicking of people who are being pissed on every day. Take it from someone who's experienced this since childhood. Knowing Jyllands-Posten and the views they represent, I know that they just did this to stir up some shit. And they succeeded. The reaction that followed has been way out of proportion, but I think Jyllands-Posten should have used their national (now global) soapbox for debating on a more sober level. That shit was just plain childish.
But be sure to round up all the other Canadians, too. They're just as responsible!
And boycott canadian food.
whatever that is!
I think you picked the battle there, dude. You're one of the more vocal proponents of free speech on the board. You've always shown a disdain for any type of language policing suggested by others who want to see people stop using words like "fag" or "ghey", a perspective which I've always repected. I don't think a cartoon like that is in good taste, humorous or intelligent, but I don't think it can be censored. Thankfully, though, we are able to express dissatisfaction with its contents.
Peace
h
I agree that it wasn't smart but these cartoons were published in Denmark not in Saudi Arabia or Egypt so fuck em really. I've travelled all over the Middle East and was very sensitive to the locals. If extremely pious folks (once again of whichever religion) want to live in a place with a free press then they better suck it up. Protest and write letters yes, kidnap and threaten people hell no.
Well, there are a lot of problems with the Muslim population in many European countries. It's just not the same as out here, there's a lot of built up anger.
Unfortunately, many don't. And I'm not just talking about Muslims.
Oh well, they won't get to see these cartoons then:
BTW I think some of the above are verging on racist but some are on-point and funny. In any event, I'm glad we're not in China where we might not be able to even have this kind of discussion.
Apparently you didn't read the whole thread. I posted the link higher up. Here it is again:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/28.htm
Again, these drawings don't mean a damn thing to me, but the timing and taste of the newspaper in question is bad. They ordered these drawings as a special feature, just for the sake of provoking. It's a bit hard to explain, you have to live here to get the context. Anyway I just think it was uneccesary.
now, if some swedish dude made a cartoon of this thread, now that would be funny.
how many folks here are muslim or spent time learning about the islamic faith?
There are certain things that you just don't do. It may not make sense to a western society like the US but they play by a different set of rules and they may see some of the things we flip out over as pure trivial.
For those not understanding where JP is coming from try to remove your westernized viewpoint from this story and look into some of the reules and traditions of islam.
...if you are a Muslim.
Well, see that's the thing - eating halal, praying 5 times a day, making Hajj... those are things that you do if you are a Muslim. Blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is something that no one should do Muslim or not.
Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.
adam i minored in religious studies, i know what the rules are, i dont give a fuck
iam not a muslim
I don't think anybody doesn't understand J*nny's point. The cartoons can easily be interpreted as blasphemous, insulting, racist, etc. especially by those of the Muslim faith. No question. But in a free society, such speech is part of the game. In return, those who are offended should be able to protest* in an equal fashion without fear of persecution.
*Emphasis on SHOULD - the complexities of THE REAL WORLD mean that the minority view doesn't often get full airtime, which is unfortunate.
Well, there's the conflict.
It's a tenet of Islam, but adherants of Islam view it as something else--something that should resonate with people outside of the faith.
Good manners, decency and respect of course dictate the above. But those are in woefully short supply in the world.
Still, CRITIQUING Islam (or any religion including atheism) should never be off the table. Hey, I'm vegetarian and I take that belief seriously. Doesn't mean I should be allowed to firebomb a Halal meat butcher shop because they're infidels in MY eyes.
I didn't want to murder over the Virgin Mary painting in the Brooklyn Museum years ago, but I recognized it as being a) in very bad taste and b) incredibly offensive to those of Christian faith.
There is a difference between free speech and responsible speech, one that seems lost on most folks.
Not a religion, though perhaps a worldview.
TORONTO (Hollywood Reporter) - Don Imus has been fingered by Canada's TV watchdog for calling Muslims "brainwashed" and "stinking animals" during a 2004 broadcast that aired here on MSNBC Canada.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060130/media_nm/media_canada_dc