26 years is torture enough for the families of his victims. Though like many here you seem to be thinking only of Tookie and nothing of the people who's lives he's destroyed.
...
You were the one who brought up the concept of a "fairer world". The way I see it, letting the victims families decide the ultimate fate for a convicted murderer (be it life in prison or death) is what makes it "fair". But again, your response betrays your allegiance to the murderer and not the real victims.
...
I didn't ask if you knew the victims personally. Only if you knew their names. Everyone seems to know who the hell Tookie is. Though almost no one seems to know or even care what his victims names were. That should tell you something right there.
...
And yet you fail to see the callousness and disrespect to the victims & their families by lumping his name in with theirs.
Sorry man, I can't agree with you on this. Family revenge is not justice. It may seem fair to you, but it's not in my opinion. I have no "allegiance" with the murderer or the victims. I'm not for or against anybody on this topic. In fact my original post was about how this should shed light on people's awareness of the death penalty, and why I personally am against it. I understand and agree with your point that people aren't aware of the truest victims of the crimes. That is also why I gave credit to them, but my point in adding Stanley was murderer or not he was also a human being. Not a symbol or an example as many people would make him out to be.
Sorry man, I can't agree with you on this. Family revenge is not justice. It may seem fair to you, but it's not in my opinion. I have no "allegiance" with the murderer or the victims. I'm not for or against anybody on this topic. In fact my original post was about how this should shed light on people's awareness of the death penalty, and why I personally am against it. I understand and agree with your point that people aren't aware of the truest victims of the crimes. That is also why I gave credit to them, but my point in adding Stanley was murderer or not he was also a human being. Not a symbol or an example as many people would make him out to be.
- spidey
I'm not debating the fact whether Tookie was or wasn't a human being.
Of course he was - and a pretty awful one at that.
It simply struck me as incredibly disrespectful and highly inappropriate to pay respects to him and his victims in the same breath like that as if they were all somehow morally equivalent.
Can you not for one moment, think about how the OWENS & the YANGS would feel if they came upon this sentence...
Rest In Peace Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, Yee Chen Lin & Stanely Williams[/b].
Sorry pal, but that's a slap in the face if there ever was one.
damn, im not gonna read this huge thread, but its fucked up that they killed tookie.
and I cant understand why anyone would be in favor of state sanctioned murder. Beyond that, death is just way to easy on some of these guys. The hardest thing is living for years and years with your actions. In jail. Plus, its cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them. Because of the massive appeals process, but you wouldnt want to ditch that cause then they could just kill anybody!
damn, im not gonna read this huge thread, but its fucked up that they killed tookie.
Not for nothing but it's also pretty fucked up that he killed Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang & Yee Chen Lin.
I mean, fuck. Does ANYBODY here care about these people??
and I cant understand why anyone would be in favor of state sanctioned murder.
Maybe you should ask the Owen & the Yang families how they feel about that.
Beyond that, death is just way to easy on some of these guys. The hardest thing is living for years and years with your actions.
No. The hardest thing is living for years and years knowing that your loved one(s) is gone forever and that the one responsible gets to LIVE and still see HIS loved ones. On your dime no less.
Plus, its cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them.
It certainly doesn't have to be. What was it that Robin Harris said again?
damn, im not gonna read this huge thread, but its fucked up that they killed tookie.
Not for nothing but it's also pretty fucked up that he killed Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang & Yee Chen Lin.
I mean, fuck. Does ANYBODY here care about these people??
and I cant understand why anyone would be in favor of state sanctioned murder.
Maybe you should ask the Owen & the Yang families how they feel about that.
Beyond that, death is just way to easy on some of these guys. The hardest thing is living for years and years with your actions.
No. The hardest thing is living for years and years knowing that your loved one(s) is gone forever and that the one responsible gets to LIVE and still see HIS loved ones. On your dime no less.
Plus, its cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them.
It certainly doesn't have to be. What was it that Robin Harris said again?
I can honestly say that if someone killed a family member of mine, I would still not wish death on him. It solves nothing, and the sense of "Justice" that is supposedly served by killing the person responsible is warped.
Plus, a vote against the death penalty isnt because I feel sympathetic towards murderous monsters. I simply feel that no civilized modern government should be given the right to execute its own citizens. I think its profoundly fucked up that our celebrity governator was given final say over another man's life. Simply turning the act of murder (even a morally "justified" one) into a buerocratic process is reprehensible enough. Its still an act of violence any way you slice it.
The victims families would benefit more from that money being put to some state sanctioned counseling. Hell, even a faith based initiative! Jesus was all about forgiveness! A fact alot of these evangilist politicians seemed to have skipped over somehow during all their bible thumping.
I can honestly say that if someone killed a family member of mine, I would still not wish death on him.
That's wonderful.
I mean, if you can hypothetically find it in your heart to hypothetically forgive the person who hypothetically murdered your family member(s) to the extent that you wouldn't hypothetically wish the same to them, then great.
Otherwise it's really none of your business or mine to judge how real victims deal with that sort of thing on a real, daily basis.
Nothing hypothetical about that mind you.
It solves nothing, and the sense of "Justice" that is supposedly served by killing the person responsible is warped.
Again, with all kind and due respect, it's really not for you to tell the victims family what "solves" what.
Besides the fact that you'd most certainly come across as self righteous & condescending in doing so.
Plus, a vote against the death penalty isnt because I feel sympathetic towards murderous monsters. I simply feel that no civilized modern government should be given the right to execute its own citizens. I think its profoundly fucked up that our celebrity governator was given final say over another man's life.
That's fine with me. I simply disagree and honestly respect your opinion on the issue.
However, do know that it was Tookie, not Arnold, who had the "final say" on his own life.
Arnold did not murder 4 innocent people. Tookie did.
Personal responsibility people.
And why is it that people here seem to clearly favor (intentionally or not) the interests of the "murderous monsters" over the interests of the truly innocent?
I've read through these 4 pages of posts and found such little concern for the actual victims and their families here that it almost makes you wonder what the fuck Tookie was even doing in prison in the first place.
The victims families would benefit more from that money being put to some state sanctioned counseling.
How incredibly intuitive of you to presume to know what's best for the victims family!
Well to that end, I hope knowing that Tookie is dead and out of their lives forever serves as the best counseling state money can buy.
And before you tell me how awful that is, or how one man's murder can never fill the void of another, just remember that it wasn't your son who was shot in the back.
Nor was it your parents or your daughter whose face was blown off at point blank range.
However, if by some godawful chance someone in your family does meet with a similar fate as you had earlier suggested, then I'm sure you will no doubt enlighten the country as to the most forgiving & humane way to deal with such a tragedy.
Hell, even a faith based initiative! Jesus was all about forgiveness! A fact alot of these evangilist politicians seemed to have skipped over somehow during all their bible thumping.
Well, I don't believe in Jesus, but did he not also say "an eye for an eye"?
BTW, I apologise if I might come off a bit condescending and snotty myself here & there.
It's honestly not my intent to but often such is the case/consequence when dealing with these type issues ya know?
My brother's ex girlfriend's dad was executed for murder. He was guilty. And also a Viet Nam vet. Here's the story as told by his brother, who turned him in on the understanding he'd get life. There are kids and now grandkids in this who have all suffered. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=17&did=394
ODub, who understands the plight of the Japanese heated about being underrepresented in fucking Memoirs of a Geisha , but can't concede or engage in a discussion about how it might be mildly offensive to put Tookie and his innocent victims on some plain of moral equivalence.
the speed and manner in which any sort of intellgient discourse on this site is reduced to shit slinging and nitpicking is absolutely pathetic.
That's wonderful. I mean, if you can hypothetically find it in your heart to hypothetically forgive the person who hypothetically murdered your family member(s) to the extent that you wouldn't hypothetically wish the same to them, then great. Otherwise it's really none of your business or mine to judge how real victims deal with that sort of thing on a real, daily basis. Nothing hypothetical about that mind you.
BTW, I apologise if I might come off a bit condescending and snotty myself here & there. It's honestly not my intent to but often such is the case/consequence when dealing with these type issues ya know?
Yeah, hommie, you need to check yourself. My Mother is dead from a drug related homocide. She died in 2000 and I don't want her killer dead. Will that bring her back? No. Paulnice, you are talking out of your ass and you don't know shit about this situation. You don't even know if Tookie really did it. Do you know what it's like to have family memebers murdered? You mother murdered? If not then shut the fuck up.
ODub, who understands the plight of the Japanese heated about being underrepresented in fucking Memoirs of a Geisha , but can't concede or engage in a discussion about how it might be mildly offensive to put Tookie and his innocent victims on some plain of moral equivalence.
the speed and manner in which any sort of intellgient discourse on this site is reduced to shit slinging and nitpicking is absolutely pathetic.
ODub, who understands the plight of the Japanese heated about being underrepresented in fucking Memoirs of a Geisha , but can't concede or engage in a discussion about how it might be mildly offensive to put Tookie and his innocent victims on some plain of moral equivalence.
the speed and manner in which any sort of intellgient discourse on this site is reduced to shit slinging and nitpicking is absolutely pathetic.
Dude, go back and re-read what I was even speaking to. You're trying to push me into a debate that I didn't get into to begin with.
Let me repeat myself since you clearly missed the point:
It's presumptuous for ANYONE to try to speak on behalf of "the victim's family" on either side of the death penalty. Paul Nice was throwing that phrase around way too heavily yet Paul was accusing others of doing the same.
That's it.
For the record, I don't think Tookie Williams should be mourned as an "innocent victim". Comparing his death with the death of those he killed makes little sense. I would say that both are PROBLEMATIC deaths but for completely different reasons.
ODub, who understands the plight of the Japanese heated about being underrepresented in fucking Memoirs of a Geisha , but can't concede or engage in a discussion about how it might be mildly offensive to put Tookie and his innocent victims on some plain of moral equivalence.
the speed and manner in which any sort of intellgient discourse on this site is reduced to shit slinging and nitpicking is absolutely pathetic.
I know it is Sunday morning and all but let me go on a little fucking rant...
What do any of you know about Williams guilt or innocence?
DNA has proven many a death row black man innocent. A lot of these innocent dudes are dead and gone. It is hard for me to believe that soulstrut people pretend to speak on this issue with authority. None of us know shit about this, myself included, so I do not claim Williams guilty or innocent. I assume nothing.
Nor do I, but I will say this, he had 25 years with outside help and new technology to prove his innocence. I don't know if you read what I quoted from the paper in a previous post, but the story said a witness under oath claimed Tookie said something to the effect of "you should have heard the sound he made when I shot him". Upon hearing this in court, Tookie began growling and laughed for 5 to 6 minutes[/b]. I don't know what to make of that, but it doesn't exactly show compassion for the victims.
i'm am exhausted with this tribal and savage society. i'm moving to the great northwest to start an organic apple farm. i am putting my records out on the curb. corner of ayers and prosser in west LA. come get em.
I know it is Sunday morning and all but let me go on a little fucking rant...
What do any of you know about Williams guilt or innocence?
DNA has proven many a death row black man innocent. A lot of innocent these dudes are dead and gone. It is hard for me to believe that soulstrut people pretend to speak on this issue with authority. None of us know shit about this, myself included, so I do not claim Williams guilty or innocent. I assume nothing.
The LAPD in the late 70's was some corrupt shit. If you are from LA you know the score. LAPD could bring anyone to justice just to solve a case. It happened all the time. It still happens.
Personally, I do not believe in the death penalty. Not at all. What good did it do to kill Williams?
Can anyone really give me a real response to this question?
Why did this turn into black man guily or innocent? I mean since were talking about Cali, and Tookie is only the 2nd black man to be put to death since the death penalty was reinstated in the 70's.
The death penalty should be banned no matter what. But it shouldn't have anything to do with race... It should have to do with the fact that in 2006 a civilized society should figure out a better way to deal with people that do these awful crimes.
After reading up a bit on the tookie crimes, I have no doubt that he did these murders. But the death penalty should go.
What do any of you know about Williams guilt or innocence?
AP....all due respect, I know he was found guilty and had 25 years of appeals by high powered lawyers supported by a number of Hollywood's finest pocketbooks.
I also know that by being a member of the Bloods or Crips you automatically commit yourself to a life of crime that helps no one and hurts many.
If killing him prevents ONE person from joining one of these gangs, or wakes up ONE parent to do a better job of raising their kids so they don't join a gang(Basically what Tookie himself was trying to promote in his book(s)) then it's had a more positive effect than keeping him locked up.
We have laws and consequences. These laws were put into place BY THE PEOPLE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE. Specifically people who have no regards for society like the Bloods and Crips.
What amazes me is how anyone can defend this lifestyle and the people who live it.
Anthony, come on, we're not talking about a room with Tookie, the witness and a judge. We're talking about a courtroom full of people to corroborate this story.
I know that not only were cops corrupt in the 70's but still are today. I know that there's a grossly improportionate amount of Black and Hispanic males incarcerated in this country under questionable (at best) circumstances. I'm not naive. But why do people insist on supporting a man who for all intents and purposes murdered 4 people in cold blood for no more than gas money? I really don't have much else to say on this.
i certainly do not defend criminals and killers. this tookie dude is not my hero. there are to many other people in the world doing real good to give props to. not some muscular reformed dude with braids.
the problem is we cannot be experts on something that is presented to us through the media and the justice system. i know nothing about this. i have read as much as most anyone else and still know nothing about this.
this discussion has become nothing more than a debate on capitol punishment. that is all it should be. it is not about williams. not about if he " did it " or not. he most likely did. so be it. i just beleive we cannot kill people in the name of justice. that is the most stupid contridiction of all time.
i personally beleive that violence and killing breeds more violence and killing. i do not beleive that killing a convict will create a society with less killing. it beleive it creates more crime, more violence. this is just a difference of opinion. thats all.
if you guys still want my records i should have them all loaded out by this afternoon. corner of ayers and prosser in west LA. i am reforming my life and joining a cult.
i am also uncertain about man landing on the moon. capricorn one. you saw the movie. it was staged. and you saw what happened to OJ. he had to eat a snake.
Comments
Sorry man, I can't agree with you on this. Family revenge is not justice. It may seem fair to you, but it's not in my opinion. I have no "allegiance" with the murderer or the victims. I'm not for or against anybody on this topic. In fact my original post was about how this should shed light on people's awareness of the death penalty, and why I personally am against it. I understand and agree with your point that people aren't aware of the truest victims of the crimes. That is also why I gave credit to them, but my point in adding Stanley was murderer or not he was also a human being. Not a symbol or an example as many people would make him out to be.
- spidey
I'm not debating the fact whether Tookie was or wasn't a human being.
Of course he was - and a pretty awful one at that.
It simply struck me as incredibly disrespectful and highly inappropriate to pay respects to him and his victims in the same breath like that as if they were all somehow morally equivalent.
Can you not for one moment, think about how the OWENS & the YANGS would feel if they came upon this sentence...
Sorry pal, but that's a slap in the face if there ever was one.
Again,
and I cant understand why anyone would be in favor of state sanctioned murder. Beyond that, death is just way to easy on some of these guys. The hardest thing is living for years and years with your actions. In jail. Plus, its cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them. Because of the massive appeals process, but you wouldnt want to ditch that cause then they could just kill anybody!
Not for nothing but it's also pretty fucked up that he killed Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang & Yee Chen Lin.
I mean, fuck. Does ANYBODY here care about these people??
Maybe you should ask the Owen & the Yang families how they feel about that.
No. The hardest thing is living for years and years knowing that your loved one(s) is gone forever and that the one responsible gets to LIVE and still see HIS loved ones. On your dime no less.
It certainly doesn't have to be. What was it that Robin Harris said again?
I can honestly say that if someone killed a family member of mine, I would still not wish death on him. It solves nothing, and the sense of "Justice" that is supposedly served by killing the person responsible is warped.
Plus, a vote against the death penalty isnt because I feel sympathetic towards murderous monsters. I simply feel that no civilized modern government should be given the right to execute its own citizens. I think its profoundly fucked up that our celebrity governator was given final say over another man's life. Simply turning the act of murder (even a morally "justified" one) into a buerocratic process is reprehensible enough. Its still an act of violence any way you slice it.
The victims families would benefit more from that money being put to some state sanctioned counseling. Hell, even a faith based initiative! Jesus was all about forgiveness! A fact alot of these evangilist politicians seemed to have skipped over somehow during all their bible thumping.
That's wonderful.
I mean, if you can hypothetically find it in your heart to hypothetically forgive the person who hypothetically murdered your family member(s) to the extent that you wouldn't hypothetically wish the same to them, then great.
Otherwise it's really none of your business or mine to judge how real victims deal with that sort of thing on a real, daily basis.
Nothing hypothetical about that mind you.
Again, with all kind and due respect, it's really not for you to tell the victims family what "solves" what.
Besides the fact that you'd most certainly come across as self righteous & condescending in doing so.
That's fine with me. I simply disagree and honestly respect your opinion on the issue.
However, do know that it was Tookie, not Arnold, who had the "final say" on his own life.
Arnold did not murder 4 innocent people. Tookie did.
Personal responsibility people.
And why is it that people here seem to clearly favor (intentionally or not) the interests of the "murderous monsters" over the interests of the truly innocent?
I've read through these 4 pages of posts and found such little concern for the actual victims and their families here that it almost makes you wonder what the fuck Tookie was even doing in prison in the first place.
How incredibly intuitive of you to presume to know what's best for the victims family!
Well to that end, I hope knowing that Tookie is dead and out of their lives forever serves as the best counseling state money can buy.
And before you tell me how awful that is, or how one man's murder can never fill the void of another, just remember that it wasn't your son who was shot in the back.
Nor was it your parents or your daughter whose face was blown off at point blank range.
However, if by some godawful chance someone in your family does meet with a similar fate as you had earlier suggested, then I'm sure you will no doubt enlighten the country as to the most forgiving & humane way to deal with such a tragedy.
Well, I don't believe in Jesus, but did he not also say "an eye for an eye"?
BTW, I apologise if I might come off a bit condescending and snotty myself here & there.
It's honestly not my intent to but often such is the case/consequence when dealing with these type issues ya know?
My brother's ex girlfriend's dad was executed for murder. He was guilty. And also a Viet Nam vet. Here's the story as told by his brother, who turned him in on the understanding he'd get life. There are kids and now grandkids in this who have all suffered.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=17&did=394
Well, apologies to the Owen's and the Yang's and anyone else who was offended. But it is my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.
- spidey
Unlike what you're doing, of course.
Uh no, he didn't. Jesus said "turn the other cheek." You're thinking of Hammurabi. You should czech your facts before sonning yourself.
ODub, who understands the plight of the Japanese heated about being underrepresented in fucking Memoirs of a Geisha , but can't concede or engage in a discussion about how it might be mildly offensive to put Tookie and his innocent victims on some plain of moral equivalence.
the speed and manner in which any sort of intellgient discourse on this site is reduced to shit slinging and nitpicking is absolutely pathetic.
Yeah, hommie, you need to check yourself. My Mother is dead from a drug related homocide. She died in 2000 and I don't want her killer dead. Will that bring her back? No. Paulnice, you are talking out of your ass and you don't know shit about this situation. You don't even know if Tookie really did it. Do you know what it's like to have family memebers murdered? You mother murdered? If not then shut the fuck up.
your avatar is highly intelligent.
Dude, go back and re-read what I was even speaking to. You're trying to push me into a debate that I didn't get into to begin with.
Let me repeat myself since you clearly missed the point:
It's presumptuous for ANYONE to try to speak on behalf of "the victim's family" on either side of the death penalty. Paul Nice was throwing that phrase around way too heavily yet Paul was accusing others of doing the same.
That's it.
For the record, I don't think Tookie Williams should be mourned as an "innocent victim". Comparing his death with the death of those he killed makes little sense. I would say that both are PROBLEMATIC deaths but for completely different reasons.
Ouch. That's why I turn my avatars off.
Revenge.
Not that I believe this, but it is the only identifiable outcome.
I believe killers deserve to die, but it's neither my nor the state's nor the agrieved's call to carry it out... i leave it up to
Nor do I, but I will say this, he had 25 years with outside help and new technology to prove his innocence. I don't know if you read what I quoted from the paper in a previous post, but the story said a witness under oath claimed Tookie said something to the effect of "you should have heard the sound he made when I shot him". Upon hearing this in court, Tookie began growling and laughed for 5 to 6 minutes[/b]. I don't know what to make of that, but it doesn't exactly show compassion for the victims.
ap
Why did this turn into black man guily or innocent? I mean since were talking about Cali, and Tookie is only the 2nd black man to be put to death since the death penalty was reinstated in the 70's.
The death penalty should be banned no matter what. But it shouldn't have anything to do with race... It should have to do with the fact that in 2006 a civilized society should figure out a better way to deal with people that do these awful crimes.
After reading up a bit on the tookie crimes, I have no doubt that he did these murders. But the death penalty should go.
AP....all due respect, I know he was found guilty and had 25 years of appeals by high powered lawyers supported by a number of Hollywood's finest pocketbooks.
I also know that by being a member of the Bloods or Crips you automatically commit yourself to a life of crime that helps no one and hurts many.
If killing him prevents ONE person from joining one of these gangs, or wakes up ONE parent to do a better job of raising their kids so they don't join a gang(Basically what Tookie himself was trying to promote in his book(s)) then it's had a more positive effect than keeping him locked up.
We have laws and consequences. These laws were put into place BY THE PEOPLE TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE. Specifically people who have no regards for society like the Bloods and Crips.
What amazes me is how anyone can defend this lifestyle and the people who live it.
Anthony, come on, we're not talking about a room with Tookie, the witness and a judge. We're talking about a courtroom full of people to corroborate this story.
I know that not only were cops corrupt in the 70's but still are today. I know that there's a grossly improportionate amount of Black and Hispanic males incarcerated in this country under questionable (at best) circumstances. I'm not naive. But why do people insist on supporting a man who for all intents and purposes murdered 4 people in cold blood for no more than gas money?
I really don't have much else to say on this.
i certainly do not defend criminals and killers. this tookie dude is not my hero. there are to many other people in the world doing real good to give props to. not some muscular reformed dude with braids.
the problem is we cannot be experts on something that is presented to us through the media and the justice system. i know nothing about this. i have read as much as most anyone else and still know nothing about this.
this discussion has become nothing more than a debate on capitol punishment. that is all it should be. it is not about williams. not about if he " did it " or not. he most likely did. so be it. i just beleive we cannot kill people in the name of justice. that is the most stupid contridiction of all time.
i personally beleive that violence and killing breeds more violence and killing. i do not beleive that killing a convict will create a society with less killing. it beleive it creates more crime, more violence. this is just a difference of opinion. thats all.
i still like you rich.
ap
later.
ap
I like you too
sorry for my " automatic liberal response ". it was the way i was raised.
now lets drop this whole tookie thing and start talking about more important stuffs.
speicifically one armed organ players and stuffs like that.
any side effect fans in the house?
Present!
feather!
Now musical taste, that's a different story