In a rare coincidence in death penalty cases, Williams has said he met Schwarzenegger at a Los Angeles-area gym in the 1970s when both men were enthusiastic bodybuilders.
now that's some crazy shit.
Personally I'm against the death penalty in all cases. I think it's funny though that Jesse Jackson all these celebrities suddenly care about this shit. People are executed all the time in this country, but just because they didn't have the high-profile that Tookie has no one gave a shit about them.
Few things offend me as viscerally as the death penalty. The fallibility of the justice system alone is sufficient reason to end state-sanctioned killing, but my opposition extends far deeper than this. Let me tell you a story.
My grandmother was liberated from Auschwitz in 1945 after three years of imprisonment. I'll spare you what I know of her time there; best to say only that it was beyond abject. Some weeks into her freedom--exactly how long I don't know--she was in a town near the camp sitting on a bench beside another freed inmate. As they sat a man walked by. My grandmother and her friend easily identified him as one of the senior guards from Auschwitz. They had seen him kill many. My grandmother???s friend shot up and shouted the Nazi's identity to nearby Soviet troops. A soldier raised his rifle and asked my grandmother if he should kill the man. My grandmother said no; too many had died already.
I hope dearly that if I ever find myself in a similar situation--and I hope equally that I never will???that I will have the same strength, compassion, and morality to do as my grandmother did.
Few things offend me as viscerally as the death penalty. The fallibility of the justice system alone is sufficient reason to end state-sanctioned killing, but my opposition extends far deeper than this. Let me tell you a story.
My grandmother was liberated from Auschwitz in 1945 after three years of imprisonment. I'll spare you what I know of her time there; best to say only that it was beyond abject. Some weeks into her freedom--exactly how long I don't know--she was in a town near the camp sitting on a bench beside another freed inmate. As they sat a man walked by. My grandmother and her friend easily identified him as one of the senior guards from Auschwitz. They had seen him kill many. My grandmother???s friend shot up and shouted the Nazi's identity to nearby Soviet troops. A soldier raised his rifle and asked my grandmother if he should kill the man. My grandmother said no; too many had died already.
I hope dearly that if I ever find myself in a similar situation--and I hope equally that I never will???that I will have the same strength, compassion, and morality to do as my grandmother did.
I think it's funny though that Jesse Jackson all these celebrities suddenly care about this shit. People are executed all the time in this country, but just because they didn't have the high-profile that Tookie has no one gave a shit about them.
it's not funny its sad actually. Media whores show thier face only at times like this. Ask Mrs. Sciavo all about it.
If these "leaders" really cared about Tookie they would have been trying to help him years ago. It used to be that people would call attention to things they thought unjust to bring the attention of the media, now its more about trying to find the media so they can call attention to themselves.
Anybody want to put money on whether Jesse & MJ still have morning prayer sessions together?
Danno:[/b] beautiful story. If your grandmother is still around tell her that she is the reason I am proud of my culture.
nothing good will come of executing tookie williams. it's not going to stop any future crime, and won't teach anyone a lesson. it will also probably further marginalize the lower-income black community and perpetuate an "us versus them" mentality, all while giving a hard-on to every closeted racist across the nation who are convinced that black people are the root of all evil.
that being said, i'm not shedding a tear for a guy who's been convicted of killing four people (for a couple hundred dollars), who's probably been involved in countless other crimes, and, for the better part of his sentence, participated in beat downs and inmate violence...all while claiming innocence and publishing a few books to "prove" his redemption.
Danno:[/b] beautiful story. If your grandmother is still around tell her that she is the reason I am proud of my culture.
Thanks, but I don't think it would mean much to her anymore. In the last five years just about everything has at some point and time been worse than Auschwitz. For example: "oi, they treat me worse than they did in auschwitz at the hair salon". It's crazy how she can throw it around so casually. It's also a little sad, but no one is in a position to judge this. I can't imagine what you to do get beyond those experiences.
If a mans life is not worth living than why should he remain alive?
If a man has something to give the community it would be a shame to not allow him to do so.
Good point. I'm glad you brought it up. In this exact respect christianity and buddhism parallels.
Ten Commandments. 1. Thou shall not kill.
Pancasila 1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
"Abstaining from the destruction of life encourages the development of compassion for all beings... All life is to be treasured. It matters not how lowly such life may seem. Treasuring the lives of those who, in many cases, have not valued lives of others is an act of spiritual courage."
Conceptually the death penalty is sufficient consequence for murderers. It for years has deterred millions of people from commiting heinous crimes. Obviously it doesn't work that way for everybody. I don't believe our system in it's current state has any chance of morally completing judgement to take the life of anyone. Though I can respect the law for what it aspires to be.
In a fairer world, we could've taken more time on this particular case to evaluate the most reasonable verdict. Even though it wouldn't give redemption to the victims or the victims familys. I personally don't believe in taking the life of anyone as an example or moral standpoint.
Given his background and evidence based on his crime I can fully comprehend a guilty verdict. I can also comprehend an unfair sentence and arrest given that proven corrupt state of los angeles. Though in the opinion of our current judicial system that we have elected the weight of the crime commited is too large for even a full rehabilitation. In that respect, the courts and Governer Schwarzenegger's judgement should be respected.
Unfortunately, the lesson of capital punishment's possible inaccuracies for the unjustly incarcerated is taught with the death of many. The issues being discussed will hopefully shed light on the topic, and hopefully one day soon, humanity can internally reform it's judicial systems. Unfortunately, our world needs a wake up call in racial discriminations worldwide. It is important for all of us to question the just-ness in how our government works. Most importantly to question ourselves and how we choose to make mistakes, and to learn from the history and mistakes of others.
Rest In Peace Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, Yee Chen Lin, Stanely Williams.
I've been against capital punishment my whole life.
me too...
and I also think everyone's death row sentences should be commuted to life without parole.
But listening to people talk about what a great guy a career criminal is while practically ignoring his crimes is getting pretty old. I understand that Tookie claims his innocence and all, but his case was pretty solidly tried from all I have read and watched.It's an old cliche, but practically EVERYONE in prison claims they were innocent. This is NOT a Mumia case or something similarly overtly [/b]political(like Geronimo Pratt or Leonard Peltier).
I applaud dude's moves to direct kids away from the folly of gang life and a career of crime, but some people are being led to believe that he is wrongly imprisoned, and this perspective is just plain untrue. And while I agree his sentence should be commuted, to me the real story is the injustice of the Death Penalty, not the injustice of Stanley Williams' being in prison.
Cosign. No love for Tookie, even less for the death penalty...
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and Countries there... Time to give up the Death Penalty peeps, sure prison isn't a great solution but state sanctioned killing isn't either. Is it not better to lead by example ???
I am completely against capital punishment (no Big pun intended)
All I wanna say is the dispraportianate numbers and race factor are serious issues
I'm hoping this isn't headed to a race thread... Lets stay on focus here. Death penalty should end. That said, I don't feel anything for the guy. The guy should have been locked up for life to think about his mistakes.
race thread i agree iam not down for but those texas numbers bring in issues of accountability and monitoring. Is there levels of leniancy in rulings or something cause these guys are really more severe it would seem.
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and Countries there... Time to give up the Death Penalty peeps, sure prison isn't a great solution but state sanctioned killing isn't either. Is it not better to lead by example ???
The US's fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights doesn't help either. I love you Americans, but some of your policies are
As troubling as those lynching images were, I think there is something far more honest in those killings than in the macabre absurdity of "humane" executions.
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and Countries there... Time to give up the Death Penalty peeps, sure prison isn't a great solution but state sanctioned killing isn't either. Is it not better to lead by example ???
The US's fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights doesn't help either. I love you Americans, but some of your policies are
As troubling as those lynching images were, I think there is something far more honest in those killings than in the macabre absurdity of "humane" executions.
Danno, Why do you think that there are more people in the world wanting to come live in a country that has a "fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights"?? Are these people ignorant to that "fact"?? Just curious,
In a fairer world, we could've taken more time on this particular case to evaluate the most reasonable verdict.
26 years wasn't enough?
Even though it wouldn't give redemption to the victims or the victims familys. I personally don't believe in taking the life of anyone as an example or moral standpoint.
In a "fairer world", the victim's family would decide the murderer's fate once he or she has been convicted.
Rest In Peace Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, Yee Chen Lin, Stanely Williams.
Not for nothing, but I think it shows an awful lot of disrespect to the victims and their families to sympathetically mention their murderer's name in the same breath/sentence as theirs.
And let me ask you honestly. Did you actually know the victim's names or did you simply cut and paste them from my post?
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and Countries there... Time to give up the Death Penalty peeps, sure prison isn't a great solution but state sanctioned killing isn't either.
Is it not better to lead by example ???
The US's fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights doesn't help either. I love you Americans, but some of your policies are
As troubling as those lynching images were, I think there is something far more honest in those killings than in the macabre absurdity of "humane" executions.
Danno,
Why do you think that there are more people in the world wanting to come live in a country that has a "fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights"?? Are these people ignorant to that "fact"??
Just curious,
Rich
I think you will find that the US has somewhat fewer Asylum seekers/Refugees arriving than western europe/EU countries due to the fact that we are closer to Eastern Europe(former soviet states),Africa and the middle east and tend to provide free healthcare and social security for them.
Most people who arrive in the US from supposed third world countries probably know very little about it at all other than what is portrayed by the media...Freedom/Money/Coaca-Cola so they probably are "ignorant" of the fact...
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and Countries there... Time to give up the Death Penalty peeps, sure prison isn't a great solution but state sanctioned killing isn't either. Is it not better to lead by example ???
The US's fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights doesn't help either. I love you Americans, but some of your policies are
As troubling as those lynching images were, I think there is something far more honest in those killings than in the macabre absurdity of "humane" executions.
Danno, Why do you think that there are more people in the world wanting to come live in a country that has a "fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights"?? Are these people ignorant to that "fact"?? Just curious,
Rich
Rich, immigration is an awfully dubious means of gauging the value or justness of American policy. By your logic, the quality of American policy is proportional to the number of people who want to immigrate there. This is absurd. It assumes that people emigrate from a country not because it???s really shitty, but because they like America so very much. It also assumes that American policy ought to prioritise attracting immigrants above all else.
I suspect you made this argument as a way of expressing your belief that America is a much better country than most everywhere else. On the whole, I agree with you. America is a pretty great place. Nonetheless, many American policies are, to put it lightly, highly questionable. Torture is an easy example, as is state-sanctioned killing. America's unwillingness is to place environmental concerns over the needs of short-sighted industrialists is also suspect. These policies make me very proud to be a Canadian. Still, America remains a swell country. Whether this is so after a couple of decades of mismanagement, I don't know.
As if we couldn't afford to give him a little more time? Was he that much of a threat to society that he deserved to die?
In a "fairer world", the victim's family would decide the murderer's fate once he or she has been convicted.
Court ordered family revenge? I thought the death penalty was bad enough.
Not for nothing, but I think it shows an awful lot of disrespect to the victims and their families to sympathetically mention their murderer's name in the same breath/sentence as theirs.
And let me ask you honestly. Did you actually know the victim's names or did you simply cut and paste them from my post?
I didn't personally know any of these people, and yes I did copy and paste all of the names. I respect all human life good and bad.
As if we couldn't afford to give him a little more time? Was he that much of a threat to society that he deserved to die?
26 years is torture enough for the families of his victims.
Though like many here you seem to be thinking only of Tookie and nothing of the people who's lives he's destroyed.
Court ordered family revenge? I thought the death penalty was bad enough.
You were the one who brought up the concept of a "fairer world".
The way I see it, letting the victims families decide the ultimate fate for a convicted murderer (be it life in prison or death) is what makes it "fair".
But again, your response betrays your allegiance to the murderer and not the real victims.
I didn't personally know any of these people, and yes I did copy and paste all of the names.
I didn't ask if you knew the victims personally. Only if you knew their names.
Everyone seems to know who the hell Tookie is.
Though almost no one seems to know or even care what his victims names were.
That should tell you something right there.
I respect all human life good and bad.
And yet you fail to see the callousness and disrespect to the victims & their families by lumping his name in with theirs.
I still don't understand why everyone is portraying the murderer as the victim in all of this.
it is what I often refer to as "white liberal guilt"
People should not feel sorry for the one who commits heinous crimes, however people should be debating whether his execution was meaningful and made society a better place. I still stand by my previous thought that as long as he was reaching people through books or whatever other means he meant more to the world alive than dead
I still don't understand why everyone is portraying the murderer as the victim in all of this.
it is what I often refer to as "white liberal guilt"
People should not feel sorry for the one who commits heinous crimes, however people should be debating whether his execution was meaningful and made society a better place. I still stand by my previous thought that as long as he was reaching people through books or whatever other means he meant more to the world alive than dead
If indeed his books are reaching and influencing children they will continue to do so long after his death, natural or state imposed. And that's a good thing.
While I understand the "White Liberal Guilt" concept I don't think it tells the story here. Many people across ethnic/racial lines oppose the Death Penalty.
I think the bigger problem/issue is personal accountability which has been vanishing quickly in our society over the last 50 years.
Remorse has been replaced with "Who can I blame" and responsibility has been replaced by "Who can I sue"
Like many here have stated, if someone killed/raped my wife/children I would take the law into my own hands and kill the mofo. And if as a result I was sentenced to death I would accept the punishment proudly, forgo years of appeals and tell the ACLU to jump in a lake.
Comments
now that's some crazy shit.
Personally I'm against the death penalty in all cases. I think it's funny though that Jesse Jackson all these celebrities suddenly care about this shit. People are executed all the time in this country, but just because they didn't have the high-profile that Tookie has no one gave a shit about them.
My grandmother was liberated from Auschwitz in 1945 after three years of imprisonment. I'll spare you what I know of her time there; best to say only that it was beyond abject. Some weeks into her freedom--exactly how long I don't know--she was in a town near the camp sitting on a bench beside another freed inmate. As they sat a man walked by. My grandmother and her friend easily identified him as one of the senior guards from Auschwitz. They had seen him kill many. My grandmother???s friend shot up and shouted the Nazi's identity to nearby Soviet troops. A soldier raised his rifle and asked my grandmother if he should kill the man. My grandmother said no; too many had died already.
I hope dearly that if I ever find myself in a similar situation--and I hope equally that I never will???that I will have the same strength, compassion, and morality to do as my grandmother did.
There is nothing gained in revenge killing.
Awesome story. Thanks for sharing.
it's not funny its sad actually. Media whores show thier face only at times like this. Ask Mrs. Sciavo all about it.
If these "leaders" really cared about Tookie they would have been trying to help him years ago. It used to be that people would call attention to things they thought unjust to bring the attention of the media, now its more about trying to find the media so they can call attention to themselves.
Anybody want to put money on whether Jesse & MJ still have morning prayer sessions together?
Danno:[/b] beautiful story. If your grandmother is still around tell her that she is the reason I am proud of my culture.
that being said, i'm not shedding a tear for a guy who's been convicted of killing four people (for a couple hundred dollars), who's probably been involved in countless other crimes, and, for the better part of his sentence, participated in beat downs and inmate violence...all while claiming innocence and publishing a few books to "prove" his redemption.
Thanks, but I don't think it would mean much to her anymore. In the last five years just about everything has at some point and time been worse than Auschwitz. For example: "oi, they treat me worse than they did in auschwitz at the hair salon". It's crazy how she can throw it around so casually. It's also a little sad, but no one is in a position to judge this. I can't imagine what you to do get beyond those experiences.
Find a new place to get your hair did
Rest In Peace Albert Owens, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin.
Good point. I'm glad you brought it up. In this exact respect christianity and buddhism parallels.
Ten Commandments.
1. Thou shall not kill.
Pancasila
1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
"Abstaining from the destruction of life encourages the development of compassion for all beings... All life is to be treasured. It matters not how lowly such life may seem. Treasuring the lives of those who, in many cases, have not valued lives of others is an act of spiritual courage."
Conceptually the death penalty is sufficient consequence for murderers. It for years has deterred millions of people from commiting heinous crimes. Obviously it doesn't work that way for everybody. I don't believe our system in it's current state has any chance of morally completing judgement to take the life of anyone. Though I can respect the law for what it aspires to be.
In a fairer world, we could've taken more time on this particular case to evaluate the most reasonable verdict. Even though it wouldn't give redemption to the victims or the victims familys. I personally don't believe in taking the life of anyone as an example or moral standpoint.
Given his background and evidence based on his crime I can fully comprehend a guilty verdict. I can also comprehend an unfair sentence and arrest given that proven corrupt state of los angeles. Though in the opinion of our current judicial system that we have elected the weight of the crime commited is too large for even a full rehabilitation. In that respect, the courts and Governer Schwarzenegger's judgement should be respected.
Unfortunately, the lesson of capital punishment's possible inaccuracies for the unjustly incarcerated is taught with the death of many. The issues being discussed will hopefully shed light on the topic, and hopefully one day soon, humanity can internally reform it's judicial systems. Unfortunately, our world needs a wake up call in racial discriminations worldwide. It is important for all of us to question the just-ness in how our government works. Most importantly to question ourselves and how we choose to make mistakes, and to learn from the history and mistakes of others.
Rest In Peace Albert Owens, Thsai Shai Yang, Yen I Yang, Yee Chen Lin, Stanely Williams.
- spidey
Cosign. No love for Tookie, even less for the death penalty...
Hmmm the US seems to be hanging with a lot of third world and
Is it not better to lead by example ???
All I wanna say is the dispraportianate numbers and race factor are serious issues
I'm hoping this isn't headed to a race thread... Lets stay on focus here. Death penalty should end. That said, I don't feel anything for the guy. The guy should have been locked up for life to think about his mistakes.
The US's fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights doesn't help either. I love you Americans, but some of your policies are
As troubling as those lynching images were, I think there is something far more honest in those killings than in the macabre absurdity of "humane" executions.
Danno,
Why do you think that there are more people in the world wanting to come live in a country that has a "fondness for torture, polluting, and disprespecting human rights"?? Are these people ignorant to that "fact"??
Just curious,
Rich
26 years wasn't enough?
In a "fairer world", the victim's family would decide the murderer's fate once he or she has been convicted.
Not for nothing, but I think it shows an awful lot of disrespect to the victims and their families to sympathetically mention their murderer's name in the same breath/sentence as theirs.
And let me ask you honestly. Did you actually know the victim's names or did you simply cut and paste them from my post?
??!
I think you will find that the US has somewhat fewer Asylum seekers/Refugees arriving than western europe/EU countries due to the fact that we are closer to Eastern Europe(former soviet states),Africa and the middle east and tend to provide free healthcare and social security for them.
Most people who arrive in the US from supposed third world countries probably know very little about it at all other than what is portrayed by the media...Freedom/Money/Coaca-Cola so they probably are "ignorant" of the fact...
Rich, immigration is an awfully dubious means of gauging the value or justness of American policy. By your logic, the quality of American policy is proportional to the number of people who want to immigrate there. This is absurd. It assumes that people emigrate from a country not because it???s really shitty, but because they like America so very much. It also assumes that American policy ought to prioritise attracting immigrants above all else.
I suspect you made this argument as a way of expressing your belief that America is a much better country than most everywhere else. On the whole, I agree with you. America is a pretty great place. Nonetheless, many American policies are, to put it lightly, highly questionable. Torture is an easy example, as is state-sanctioned killing. America's unwillingness is to place environmental concerns over the needs of short-sighted industrialists is also suspect. These policies make me very proud to be a Canadian. Still, America remains a swell country. Whether this is so after a couple of decades of mismanagement, I don't know.
As if we couldn't afford to give him a little more time? Was he that much of a threat to society that he deserved to die?
Court ordered family revenge? I thought the death penalty was bad enough.
I didn't personally know any of these people, and yes I did copy and paste all of the names. I respect all human life good and bad.
- spidey
26 years is torture enough for the families of his victims.
Though like many here you seem to be thinking only of Tookie and nothing of the people who's lives he's destroyed.
You were the one who brought up the concept of a "fairer world".
The way I see it, letting the victims families decide the ultimate fate for a convicted murderer (be it life in prison or death) is what makes it "fair".
But again, your response betrays your allegiance to the murderer and not the real victims.
I didn't ask if you knew the victims personally. Only if you knew their names.
Everyone seems to know who the hell Tookie is.
Though almost no one seems to know or even care what his victims names were.
That should tell you something right there.
And yet you fail to see the callousness and disrespect to the victims & their families by lumping his name in with theirs.
it is what I often refer to as "white liberal guilt"
People should not feel sorry for the one who commits heinous crimes, however people should be debating whether his execution was meaningful and made society a better place. I still stand by my previous thought that as long as he was reaching people through books or whatever other means he meant more to the world alive than dead
If indeed his books are reaching and influencing children they will continue to do so long after his death, natural or state imposed. And that's a good thing.
While I understand the "White Liberal Guilt" concept I don't think it tells the story here. Many people across ethnic/racial lines oppose the Death Penalty.
I think the bigger problem/issue is personal accountability which has been vanishing quickly in our society over the last 50 years.
Remorse has been replaced with "Who can I blame" and responsibility has been replaced by "Who can I sue"
Like many here have stated, if someone killed/raped my wife/children I would take the law into my own hands and kill the mofo. And if as a result I was sentenced to death I would accept the punishment proudly, forgo years of appeals and tell the ACLU to jump in a lake.