the whole suburbians people decided to burn cars, kill policemen and throw their social life away by being arrested just because two guys were killed and Sarkozy threating them of "scum people". Are you going to kill somebody in the street if Chirac tells you you're a scum? Did you ever thought racism will disappear here because France won the soccer world cup with a team composed of caucasian and african people? I'm not against people who are giving their opinion. I disagree when people think there's a sort of united suburbians army that trying to make the revolution and change the world. This is simplistic[/b] and I don't like global way of explanation. It's all about weakness of the human beings. If you give a good job, money and wife to a rioter, he will get out of here and will don't give a fuck about those who stayed in the shit. Progress are low, only time and mentality evolution will change things.
Is it ever! According to you they should just buckle down and get with the program ??? I would love to hear your views on race riots in America.
It???s not the whole population in the outskirts ??? it is the most disenfranchised: young men between 16 and 25 mostly. I guess because they wear brand name sweats ??? they have no right to be pissed off at being born in France, taught in French schools, sold on the idea of ???equality, liberty and fraternity??? and then not be given any of those things. Kids who were born in France, whose parents were born in France, get stopped and asked for identity papers, the opportunity for decent jobs and decent housing is not realized due to racism that is ingrained and maintained.
You???re right, it is about weakness, but if the population is malnourished ??? they will be weak and very angry.
It must be nice to be you ??? have it all figured out and place blame as needed.
I'm with bapt on this one. It's not a party, the problem's not going away and the fact is that if you treat people like animals they will act like animals. There are real grievances here and you don't need to live in the suburban ghetto to see that. You exclude people from mainstream society so they find other ways to make themselves visible. These people don't have access to the media, they're ignored by the state, denied a platform to express themselves and now they're shouting a little louder. Sarkozy declaring virtual war on the suburbs doesn't help anything going forward. Treat the illness not the symptons.
I agree with you on the form, but you're talking like a book, not like a people who are living the situation. Damn... You would be the first you and Bapt to refuse the entry to a bunch of that type of guys if you would do a party in your home. Stop saying they are victims. Stop acting like you're on the side of people beating people to death. Why burning the car of a guy who live in the same place and have the same problems as you? I understand why they hate policemen who disrespect and be violent with them, I can't understand a youngster shooting on the guy who shot at him or his friends, but what the fuck with the neighbours? This is ridiculous and is out of control and mind. You wanna get out of the ghetto? stop crying and do something for you to be out of here. You thing I'm insulting suburbians or something? I think it's an insult to their intelligence to think it's a majority of people from there who think "to be visible, the best would be to set some cars on fire or kill an old lady"
Sarkozy? He doesn't want to cure suburbs, problems in the suburbs is the main reason why people like him! He's like all the politicians, he's threating the direct symptoms to please people for the next vote.
Don't mean to talk like a book but I'm trying to be objective here. It's more than naive to say that all you need to do to raise yourself from the poverty swamp is to try a little harder. You need opportunity too and if it ain't there, you stay festering where you are. No hope, no future. And you think that when mayhem descends people are going to be selective about the type of destruction they inflict? It's a fucking RIOT! You're right about Sarkozy though.
They way you people say Muslim reads like Nigger. Yeah, I said you people.
Perhaps you people should differentiate between Muslim as a cultural indentity vs. a strict religious classification? While many of these kids are called "Muslim" they are about as (Islamic)religious as a Pernod soaked porkchop. Therein lies the problem.
They way you people say Muslim reads like Nigger. Yeah, I said you people.
Perhaps you people should differentiate between Muslim as a cultural indentity vs. a strict religious classification? While many of these kids are called "Muslim" they are about as (Islamic)religious as a Pernod soaked porkchop. Therein lies the problem.
Agreed. This isn't about religion it's about social exclsion.
PARIS - A curfew was set up yesterday at Le Raincy, a neighborhood in the eastern suburbs of Paris. The order was issued by the local conservative mayor, Eric Raoult. The prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, made clear on television that similar measures might soon be enforced on a broader scale. "Restoring public safety is our top priority," he said. After 11 days and nights of rioting, the country was coming close to a civil war.
A map published in the afternoon by Le Monde showed that ethnic violence - the "French Intifada," as it is being referred to by some journalists and political leaders - had spread almost all over the country, with the exception of Inner Brittany, western Normandy, and Burgundy, where North African and black communities are small, and Corsica, where a large North African community is held in check by a local nationalist movement that itself is prone to violence. Most major cities, including Lyons, Marseille, Lille, Toulouse, and Bordeaux, have been hit.
Rioting and guerrilla-style street fighting were still rampant in the northern Parisian county of Seine-Saint-Denis - colloquially known as 9-3, after its postal code - where the whole thing started on October 27. The five other Parisian counties were hurt as well. The inner city itself, the ultra-chic City of Paris, was subjected to several ethnic raids over the weekend.
In terms of destruction and casualties, the balance sheet is horrendous. Between Sunday and Monday night, no fewer than 1,408 cars, including buses and trucks, were torched throughout the country. Schools, colleges, sports facilities, factories, shopping arcades, and even two churches - one in Lens, in the north, and one in Sete, on the Mediterranean - were burned. A local resident who attempted to stop a fire was beaten to death in Stains. Elsewhere, a disabled woman narrowly escaped being burned alive in a torched bus. Dozens of firefighters were wounded.
The first question one must ask is why the French government, admittedly one of the strongest and most centralized in the world, and certainly in Europe, did not consider imposing some measure of martial law in the violence-ridden areas much earlier.
There are many constitutional and legal provisions that would have allowed such steps. According to Article 16 of the 1958 constitution, the French president can resort to "exceptional powers" in case of a "major crisis": All he has to do is to consult with the prime minister, the chairpersons of both houses of Parliament, and the president of the Constitutional Council, who all four happen to be loyal followers.
According to Article 36, martial law can be decreed for a period of 12 days, and then confirmed by Parliament for extended 12-day periods, if necessary. The present Parliament is conservative-dominated. As for regular curfews, they can be decreed by the Cabinet without further review under a 1955 law. Moreover, it is an open secret that the for about 15 years French defense forces had made at least contingency plans for "urban battles" similar to what is happening now.
One reason for the government's procrastination has been that in a crisis scenario, much depends on the president, Jacques Chirac, and he suffered a minor stroke several weeks ago. Another reason is that both Mr. Chirac and his heir apparent, Mr. Villepin, were not entirely unhappy about the rioting, at least in its first stage, since it was a blow to their political rival within the conservative camp, the minister of the interior, Nicolas Sarkozy.
The temptation to sack Mr. Sarkozy - as a token of appeasement - may have loomed over them for several days at least. Moreover, Messrs. Chirac and Villepin have built their political identity on a Gaullist pro-Arab and pro-Islamic stand that became fully apparent three years ago, when France distanced itself from America in respect of Iraq. They may expect to harvest a large "immigrant vote" in the coming presidential and parliamentary elections, in 2007, and be reluctant to jeopardize it by taking an aggressive law and order line now.
Still, more factors may have played as well. The government may have been genuinely surprised and intimidated. It is one thing to know in theory that France has undergone major ethnic changes over the past 30 years and another thing altogether to confront a mass ethnic insurgency. The figures are inescapable. There are about 60 million inhabitants in continental France, plus 2 million citizens in the overseas territories (essentially the French West Indies and La Reunion island in the Indian Ocean). About 20 million, most of them white and Christian, are over 50.
Out of the remaining 40 million or so, 10 million or so belong to the ethnic minorities: Muslim North Africans, Muslim Turks or Near Easterners, Muslim Black Africans, Christian West Indian, African or Reunionese blacks. When one regards to the youngest age brackets, the proportion is even larger. It is estimated that 35% of all French inhabitants under 20, and 50% of all inhabitants in the major urban centers, belong to the ethnic minorities. Islam alone may claim respectively 30% and 45%. Since war is essentially the business of youths, the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one.
Which brings us to a second question: How ethnic is the present violence in France? Liberal commentators, both in France and abroad, tend to say that poverty and unemployment, rather than race or religion, are the driving force behind the riots. Mr. Villepin himself tends to share this view, at least in part. He said yesterday on TV that he is earmarking enormous credits for housing rehabilitation, education, and state-supported jobs in the areas where the unrest has developed. But the fact remains that only ethnic youths are rioting, that most of them explicitly pledge allegiance to Islam and such Muslim heroes as Osama bin Laden, that the Islamic motto - Allahu Akbar - is usually their war cry, and that they submit only to archconservative or radical imams.
The fact also remains, according to many witnesses, that the rioters torch only "white" cars, meaning white owned cars, and spare "Islamic" or "black" ones. One way to discriminate between them is to look for ethnic signs like a sticker with Koranic verses or a picture of the Kaaba in Mekka or a stylized map of Africa. Further evidence of the animating influence in the riots lies with the French rap music to which the perpetrators listen. Such music obsessively describes White France as a sexual prey.
A third and last question is what impact this unprecedented ordeal is likely to have on France and Europe? One would reasonably expect the French government to restore its grip over the country. What matters, however, is the long-term outcome. My guess is that the crisis will not be so easily forgotten or washed away among the "non-ethnic" citizens, including those of alien stock who have fully integrated into the French society as it is. Rejection of Islam and of North African, Black African, and Middle Eastern immigration may increase dramatically. And the prospect of Turkey acceding to the European Union may get even dimmer.
Mr. Gurfinkiel is the editor of Valeurs Actuelles, a Paris-based journal.
that article - though it has facts, is mostly opinion. the chanting over the cars isnot indicative of the wider rioting.
and so the ping pong game begins!!!
_____________________________
French Hoping Curfews Bring End to Unrest By CHRISTINE OLLIVIER, Associated Press Writer Tue Nov 8,11:12 AM ET
PARIS - President Jacques Chirac declared a state of emergency Tuesday, paving the way for curfews to be imposed on riot-hit cities and towns in an extraordinary measure to halt France's worst civil unrest in decades after 12 nights of violence.
Police, meanwhile, said overnight unrest Monday-Tuesday, was still widespread and destructive but not as violent as previous nights.
"The intensity of this violence is on the way down," National Police Chief Michel Gaudin said, citing fewer attacks on public buildings and fewer direct clashes between youths and police. He said rioting was reported in 226 towns across France, compared with nearly 300 the night before.
The state-of-emergency decree ??? invoked under a 50-year-old law ??? allows curfews where needed and will become effective at midnight Tuesday, with an initial 12-day limit. Police who have been massively reinforced as the violence has fanned out from its initial flash point in Paris' northeastern suburbs were expected to enforce the curfews. The army has not been called in.
The mayhem sweeping the neglected and impoverished neighborhoods with large African and Arab communities is forcing France to confront anger building for decades among residents who complain of discrimination and unemployment. Although many of the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.[/b]
Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight, compared with 1,408 vehicles Sunday-Monday, police said. A total of 330 people were arrested, down from 395 the night before.
Local officials "will be able to impose curfews on the areas where this decision applies," Chirac said at a Cabinet meeting. "It is necessary to accelerate the return to calm."
The recourse to a 1955 state-of-emergency law that dates back to France's war in Algeria was a measure both of the gravity of mayhem that has spread to hundreds of French towns and cities and of the determination of Chirac's sorely tested government to quash it.
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said curfew violators could be sentenced to up to two months imprisonment, adding that restoring order "will take time."
"We are facing determined individuals, structured gangs," Villepin told parliament on Tuesday. He vowed that France will "guarantee public order to all of our citizens."
Under the emergency decree, local government officials will be able to put people under house arrest and demand that weapons be handed over. Public spaces where gangs gather can be closed. Disobedience could lead to up to two months in prison, Villepin said.
The violence erupted Oct. 27 as a localized riot in a northeast Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers, of Mauritanian and Tunisian descent, who were electrocuted while hiding from police in a power substation. It has grown into a nationwide insurrection by disillusioned suburban youths.
Villepin also reached out to the heavily immigrant suburbs, acknowledging that racial discrimination there is as a "daily and repeated" fact of life. He said job seekers with foreign-sounding names are sometimes not given equal consideration as those with French names, adding that fighting such prejudice "must become a priority."
The violence claimed its first victim Monday, with the death of a 61-year-old man beaten into a coma last week. Foreign governments have warned tourists to be careful in France. Apparent copycat attacks have spread to Belgium and Germany, where cars were burned.
France is using fast-track trials to punish rioters, worrying some human rights campaigners.
At one court in the northeastern Paris suburb of Bobigny, 60 riot-related cases were processed in one day and the court has called in three extra magistrates to deal with the overflow.
The Justice Ministry said Tuesday that 52 adults and 23 minors have been sentenced to prison or detention centers.
The resort to curfews drew immediate criticism from Chirac's political opponents. Former Socialist Prime Minister Laurent Fabius said the emergency measures must be "controlled very, very closely."
Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet said the decree could enflame rioters. "It could be taken anew as a sort of challenge to carry out more violence," she said.
Rioters in the southern city of Toulouse ordered passengers off a bus, then set it on fire and pelted police with gasoline bombs and rocks. Youths also torched another bus in the northeastern Paris suburb of Stains, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said.
Outside Paris in Sevran, a junior high school was set ablaze, while in the suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine youths threw gasoline bombs at a hospital, Hamon said. Nobody was injured.
Rioters also attacked a police station with gasoline bombs in Chenove, in Burgundy's Cote D'Or, Hamon said. A nursery school in Lille-Fives, in northern France, was set on fire, regional officials said.
Never has rioting struck so many French cities simultaneously, said security expert Sebastian Roche, a director of research at the state-funded National Center for Scientific Research.
The sad thing is that it is all so predictable which makes one wonder about who's running the world.
When I moved to France in 89 you only saw the faintest glimmer of these issues. Touche pas ma pote and other anti-racist campaigns. I remember we played a soccer match against another lycee from the burbs and all of my inner-city homies were scared to change in the locker room afterwards, saying shit like these guys will hurt you. In talking to most French people they just didn't get how similar the situation to some many other western countries like ours, where people are marginalized because of race and class (and religion).
In 94 I went back and the all the kids from the projects were wearing starter jackets and listening to hip-hop. Overnight it was like a mini-version of the US. Street corner drug dealing, violence, etc. That year the first youth riots broke out. My friends were shocked. These kids seemed like aliens to them. I remember telling people to get ready for a whole lot more because the root causes were not being addressed, just like we will not deal with the ghetto here.
In 2003 I went back again. Most of my liberal friends were very unsympathetic to the plight of the suburban kids because their personal daily interactions were so hostile. In places like Les Halles the surburban kids pour in on the weekends. Hanging out with not much to do. My host sister complained about young men harrassing her constantly. It is not hard to see why the situation gets so polarized.
To me the situation is a classic tale of ghettoization and lack of opportunity. There must be some sort of inclusion culture or people on the outs are going to react, however stupidly. On the predictable note. Look for a short-term fix to be put in place but nothing to really change until it gets much worse.
Although many of the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.[/b]
yeah mosques and orgs would be crazy for making public appeals to riot, these are not deeply religious people that are doing this (like fatback said) the muslim youth of europe do not have deep religious convictions, they drink, do drugs, have casual sex, they pull out the religion when it comes to keeping women under their control
i know that in england that other immigrants from asia (hindus) dont have problems with unemployment and poverty and they are often confused for being muslims, while muslim immigrants from the same areas of asia continue to have these problems. would any of the many french sociologists in this thread like to answer a question for me, is there a large hindu population in france at all? and where are they in all this?
Although many of the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.[/b]
yeah mosques and orgs would be crazy for making public appeals to riot, these are not deeply religious people that are doing this (like fatback said) the muslim youth of europe do not have deep religious convictions, they drink, do drugs, have casual sex, they pull out the religion when it comes to keeping women under their control
Sometimes you seem smart and other times, when you say shit like this ??? you sound just like every ???militant??? you shit on. Same tactics, different words. Who the fuck are you exactly to speak about something you know nothing about? Or did you read this in some journal written by a European academic?
When was the last time you lived in Europe, knew European men of Arab descent or dated an European man of Arab descent?
This is totally fucking disgusting dude. Let's see you make these kinds of generalizations about Blacks, Hispanics, Jews or women.
Kids who were born in France, whose parents were born in France, get stopped and asked for identity papers, the opportunity for decent jobs and decent housing is not realized due to racism that is ingrained and maintained.
yeah, no one would disagree this is a problem. a good amount of the french population has this phobia of immigrants (not unlike most americans who constantly call for stronger border patrol)...which causes this kind of abuse from the police.
BUT
trashing your neighborhood, setting wheelchair-bound old ladies on fire, burning down community centers and pre-schools (yes, this actually happened) isn't going to solve shit. this kind of behavior is simply perpetuating the already racist stereotypes growing among the french, and is absolutely counter productive for the integration of these kids into mainstream society. you can't blame the french govt for everything...a lot of these communities refuse integration and constantly seek to differentiate themselves as outsiders due to misplaced rage and "tete dure" islamic fundamentalism which clashes with the western values promoted by the french government. anyway, back to the point...these riots are the result of a few angry kids who are completely destroying their communities and reinforcing the stereotypes already engrained in the minds of the conservative french population...in fact, this is the FN's wet-dream (the conspiracy theorist in me would even venture to say that some of these immigrant youths are being paid off by the FN to instigate violence): a media circus displaying non-whites burning shit and promoting anti-social behavior...all this is setting the stage for a face off between sarkozy and le-pen (basically the french will be divided between right-wing and ultra-right-wing) for the next presidential elections.
as one community member said on international french television after seeing the words "nique ta mere sarkozy" (go fuck your mom sarkozy) keyed into his car..."it's not sarkozy they fucked over this time, it's me."
the muslim youth of europe do not have deep religious convictions, they drink, do drugs, have casual sex, they pull out the religion when it comes to keeping women under their control
A bit of a sweeping generalisation I feel...
i know that in england that other immigrants from asia (hindus) dont have problems with unemployment and poverty and they are often confused for being muslims, while muslim immigrants from the same areas of asia continue to have these problems.
I'm afraid that just isn't true, considering the area that I live in UK has one of the largest asian populations in the UK and high unemployment, so can vouch for the fact that both Indian and Pakistani youths are unemployed.The religion that they follow has no bearing on the situation that they find themselves in (Muslim,Hindu or Sikh).
It seems as if a lot of people here have strong feelings against the muslim community...
Kids who were born in France, whose parents were born in France, get stopped and asked for identity papers, the opportunity for decent jobs and decent housing is not realized due to racism that is ingrained and maintained.
yeah, no one would disagree this is a problem. a good amount of the french population has this phobia of immigrants (not unlike most americans who constantly call for stronger border patrol)...which causes this kind of abuse from the police.
BUT
trashing your neighborhood, setting wheelchair-bound old ladies on fire, burning down community centers and pre-schools (yes, this actually happened) isn't going to solve shit. this kind of behavior is simply perpetuating the already racist stereotypes growing among the french, and is absolutely counter productive for the integration of these kids into mainstream society. you can't blame the french govt for everything...a lot of these communities refuse integration and constantly seek to differentiate themselves as outsiders due to misplaced rage and "tete dure" islamic fundamentalism which clashes with the western values promoted by the french government. anyway, back to the point...these riots are the result of a few angry kids who are completely destroying their communities and reinforcing the stereotypes already engrained in the minds of the conservative french population...in fact, this is the FN's wet-dream (the conspiracy theorist in me would even venture to say that some of these immigrant youths are being paid off by the FN to instigate violence): a media circus displaying non-whites burning shit and promoting anti-social behavior...all this is setting the stage for a face off between sarkozy and le-pen (basically the french will be divided between right-wing and ultra-right-wing) for the next presidential elections.
as one community member said on international french television after seeing the words "nique ta mere sarkozy" (go fuck your mom sarkozy) keyed into his car..."it's not sarkozy they fucked over this time, it's me."
I agree. This is hardly the best way to bring about positive change. And no one side is fully to blame, it???s obviously a lot of different factors working together. The way this happened will do more damage than good, definitely in the short-term. But this is obviously anger past the point of reason.
Sarkzoy is not this one-dimensional guy either, he has done things that to some would seem contradictory. Both he and the President have expressed that France???s integration system may be flawed ??? this is a good start.
Sometimes you seem smart and other times, when you say shit like this ??? you sound just like every ???militant??? you shit on.
let me make something clear, i hate all religions equally
Same tactics, different words. Who the fuck are you exactly to speak about something you know nothing about? Or did you read this in some journal written by a European academic?
When was the last time you lived in Europe, knew European men of Arab descent or dated an European man of Arab descent?
yes i do read things by "european academics", so you are saying if i went out with some dude that was a european muslim, or made out with a morrocan at a club i would know more than if i had done studies and research on the subject or by reading these studies
This is totally fucking disgusting dude. Let's see you make these kinds of generalizations about Blacks, Hispanics, Jews or women.
Kids who were born in France, whose parents were born in France, get stopped and asked for identity papers, the opportunity for decent jobs and decent housing is not realized due to racism that is ingrained and maintained.
yeah, no one would disagree this is a problem. a good amount of the french population has this phobia of immigrants (not unlike most americans who constantly call for stronger border patrol)...which causes this kind of abuse from the police.
BUT
trashing your neighborhood, setting wheelchair-bound old ladies on fire, burning down community centers and pre-schools (yes, this actually happened) isn't going to solve shit. this kind of behavior is simply perpetuating the already racist stereotypes growing among the french, and is absolutely counter productive for the integration of these kids into mainstream society.[/b] you can't blame the french govt for everything...a lot of these communities refuse integration and constantly seek to differentiate themselves as outsiders due to misplaced rage and "tete dure" islamic fundamentalism which clashes with the western values promoted by the french government. anyway, back to the point...these riots are the result of a few angry kids who are completely destroying their communities and reinforcing the stereotypes already engrained in the minds of the conservative french population...in fact, this is the FN's wet-dream (the conspiracy theorist in me would even venture to say that some of these immigrant youths are being paid off by the FN to instigate violence): a media circus displaying non-whites burning shit and promoting anti-social behavior...all this is setting the stage for a face off between sarkozy and le-pen (basically the french will be divided between right-wing and ultra-right-wing) for the next presidential elections.
as one community member said on international french television after seeing the words "nique ta mere sarkozy" (go fuck your mom sarkozy) keyed into his car..."it's not sarkozy they fucked over this time, it's me."
Here's an opinion piece from actor/director Mathieu ('La haine'/'Amelie') Kassovitz's website (also appears in edited form on the Guardian's site) -
Working Class France...
For some days now, radio and television stations from around the world have been contacting me requesting interviews regarding the events that have been shaking up the suburbs of France.
Unfortunately, I cannot honor all of these requests and so I have decided to express myself through my website.
As much as I would like to distance myself from politics, it is difficult to remain distant in the face of the depravations of politicians. And when these depravations draw the hate of all youth, I have to restrain myself from encouraging the rioters.
Nicolas SARKOZY, who has appeared in the French media like a starlet from American Idol and who for the past years has been showering us with details of his private life and his political ambitions, cannot help himself from creating an event every time his ratings in the IPSOS polls go down. This time, Nicolas SARKOZY has gone against everything the French Republic stands for. The Liberty, the Equality and the Fraternity of a people.
The Minister of the Interior, a future presidential candidate, holds ideas that not only reveal his inexperience of politics and human relations (which are intimately linked), but that also illuminate the purely demagogical and egocentric aspects of a puny, would be Napoleon.
If the suburbs are exploding once again today, it is not due to being generally fed up with the conditions of life that entire generations of ???immigrants??? must fight with every day. There is not, unfortunately, anything political in the combat that is pitting the youth of low rent housing projects against Nicolas SARKOZY???s police forces. These burning cars are surface eruptions in the face of the lack of respect the Minister of the Interior has shown toward their community.
Nicolas SARKOZY does not like this community, he wants to get rid of this ???these punks??? with high pressure water hoses and he shouts it out loud and clear right in the middle of a ???hot??? neighborhood at eleven in the evening.
The response is in the streets. ???Zero tolerance??? works both ways.
It is intolerable that a politician (but is he really one?) should allow himself to upset a situation made tense by years of ignorance and injustice and not refrain from openly threatening an entire segment of the French population without addressing the real problems.
By acting like a warmonger, he has opened a breach that I hope will engulf him. Hate has kindled hate for centuries and yet Nicolas SARKOZY still thinks that repression is the only way to prevent rebellion. This desire to impose his way of thinking at any price reminds me of other great leaders of our times. It gives me chills down the spine.
History has proved to us that a lack of openness and philosophy between different communities engenders hate and confrontation. The Intifada of different Parisian suburbs rather resembles the confrontations that opposed the children of Palestine armed with stones against the soldiers of Israel armed with Uzis.
History confronts itself again everywhere.
Sound and fury are the only means for many communities to make themselves heard. The attacks of terrorists on the front pages of newspapers around the world are the result.
And the repression of terror by terror never won wars; it only helped to sustain them.
Nicolas SARKOZY is an admirer of George Bush???s communication machine. He uses it to glorifies his image and to manipulate the population.
Like BUSH, he does not defend an idea, he responds to the fears that he himself instills in people???s heads.
He would have engaged France alongside the Americans in Bush???s ???fight against terror???. I???m convinced of it.
Nicolas SARKOZY wants to become the President of our republic and ???nobody will get in his way??? as he dramaticaly puts it.
If this man does not fail at least once in his initiatives to win the presidency of this country, nothing indeed will get in his way, and his desire for absolute power will finally be fulfilled.
Does history repeat itself? Yes. It always has done. A desire for power and the egocentricity of those who think they hold the truth has ALWAYS created dictators.
Nicolas SARKOZY is certainly a little Napoleon, and I do not know if he has the potential of a real one, but it will be impossible to say tomorrow that we didn???t know.
Not applicable unequivocally to all strata of French society - if you espouse a maxim as such and then make feeble attempts to avail the sons and daughters of immigrants from FORMER colonies of the opportunities afforded WHITE/CAUCASION citizens...
I'd go on about the hypocrisy of France itself, but it's really no worse than what every other country under the sun engages in... What's ironic is that a large %age of those wielding the power in the current infrastructure likely had been social activists in the misguided and completely impotent May '68 movement - sorta like how people who went on tour w/ the Dead in the '60s sport BMWs in 2005...
e.g. Capitalism - free market - but then what about (farm and textile industry) subsidies and quota tariffs? Yeah...
As long as you don't live exactly in the hood where the riots take place, you don't know a lot about it. I'm living in downtown Paris but to be honest I don't know shit about what's really happenin' in the suburbs...
Ok, so?
So what? It's not clear?
What is clear is that you admit not to know what you're talkin about.
Thomas, here is the funniest part of your speech. "fantasms", I'd say "reality".
NOPE. I stick on fantasms.
REALITY.
People usually think every damn people on a hot suburbs is a rioter.
OH?
People in the country think every rioter got a damn AK47 in his car ready to be used against police. THIS IS A MINORITY.
I see, you're talkin of what "People" think, I am talkin of how the situation is. Fantasms VS reality.
And I never said that rioters was the MAJORITY. And by sayin that, I do not admit that rioters have an AK47 in their car... bla... bla... ok?
Seriously: there is someone here who really think people burn the car of a poor neighbour "to express his anger and his struggle against the system" ?? This is just plain fun for the teenagers, it's like a good party.
A good party??
yep. a good party. Sorry if it's but it's just reality. It's rioters themself who said that. Sorry if you fantasize on a new social revolution that would end any social problems but it's not.
Robert, you can believe what you want, you're with THE MACK, I'm too. Check out my location quote.
Well, I don't fantasize at all. And nothing is ending right here, but starting... you'll see (later but you'll see)
It's just kids having fun with molotov cocktails and guns, cause their lack of education and familly structure didn't told them it's bad and have horrible circonstances to kill and wound people. I say it once again: they don't give a fuck about your 40 years of segregation, they're not politicians or talk show intelectuals, they live in a place where violence is a normal thing.
But what is sure is that this "movement" is here and won't disappear in a few days. Kids in the suburbs have A LOT OF problems!!! Problems which did not appear yesterday... nahmean? I'm talkin about 40 years old problems.
Come on.. You react like it's the first time these guys burn cars and kill people for no reason! Man i heard about that since I'm born!
So we are still in 1976. Why not. I mean, you think that the situation is the same as it was in 75/76...
I know so many people who were beaten because they refuse to give a cigarette or cause their girlfriend were insulted in the street. Is it part of a "movement"? Is there any connection between hit a guy in the face for no reason and 40 years of racism? Do you excuse a pedophil because he was abused himself?
wO!w, slow down! I don't excuse nothing/nobody, yo. I don't know if that's me or... but you're hard to understand today.
I'VE NEVER SAY THIS SHIT IS GOOD, THIS ONE IS NOT.
I don't judge, I just try to understand. And I try to explain to the strutters (most of 'em are American, so I think it's important) what is the situation, here.
And like Dela said, American press is talkin shit. And I'm afraid because extremist groups could do the same, you see? No you don't...
Don't show me as the bad guy. I know it's hard to come from a project, I know suburbian (not only rioters) have problems and would like to live where I live, I know police is violent and racist, and so what? I had and still have friendship with people from hard suburbs who didn't beat people, talk wisely and are good students or workers. You always have choice.
I know you're cool. The rioters are a minority like you said, that's the reality.
It is like you def don't want to UNDERSTAND what "People" live right there.
And it's not hard TO COME FROM a project. It's hard TO LIVE IN a project.
Don't be so dramatical and clich??. It's not a sitcom with good and bad people, it's the real life. I'm cool with people who respect me, my friends and familly. I hate dumb ass who say it's cool to be Tony Montana and wears "Kaira" sweatshirts. THEY ARE NOT VICTIMS. Is it simplistic? OK that's fine with me. I have no time in life to excuse violent bastards and find them excuses.
Pfff!!! I wastemy time. (PS: Of course you're right, in a way, but...)
As long as you don't witness it with your own eyes, as long as it's not your car burning in front of you, as long as you're not the son of the beaten to death man, you still be ignorant.
A map published in the afternoon by Le Monde showed that ethnic violence - the "French Intifada," ...
This has NOTHING TO DO with ethnicity. It's neither ethnic nor religious. I can't understand why people think that. It's just a racist statement. Yes, a lot of rioters are from a muslim background, and some are catholics, some are agnostics...
Would someone describe the LA riots as christian violence ? Most rioters were christians, right ?
Leave my man Paul alone OK? He has nothing to do with that! And leave alone too, he didn't said a damn word about it since a while, that's between you and me!
OK You don't judge, you try to understand bla bla bla Just a question: do you have any rioters friends? Have you ever sympathised with a guy throwing a molotov cocktail on cars? Cause understand that people, like you seems to do, imply to live, eat, doing things with this people right? Or maybe you're like most of the people, you don't judge, you try to understand, but you stay away from them cause they don't give a fuck about you! Understand what they do, means that if you were in the same situation, you will do the same. It means that you would be ready to burn a car, then video it on your cellular phone to show to your friends that you're the most hardcore guy in the hood. It means that you will burn more cars, cause in the infos, the speaker said your hood is more calm than the others. If you don't mean that, then it means that you think this people are weaker than you, or less inteligent. Let me know that you understand that type of behaviour. Let me know that every dumb behavior is totally understandable and excusable. Let me know that because every behavior is understandable, you don't send nobody to jail, cause no one is responsible, it's the society! Of course I agree with people who say "threat the illness, not the symptom", It's totally right, people here need love, education, work and responsability. But unfortunatly, once it's too late, you have to do something and judge, not only understand. Like Coluche said: "one dumb ass who walk go farther than three intelectuals who think"
you don't judge, you try to understand? I'm sure that, in your great wisedom, if a guy burn your car, you will say: "oh OK, I understand, Sarkozy insulted him, this guy is angry, he expressed all the pain he has inside his heart and he's fed up with all this racism and segregation that plagues him since he's born". Bullshit! You're like all this people that excuse the rioters but never lived (or for certain), never seen one in his life. If I see a guy set my car on fire I smash it with a baseball bat while he's looking the car burning (if I find the courage to do it). I've seen and met many suburbians in my life, I lived most of my life in mixed/not rich area, I live right now in the most mixed area of Paris (Menilmontant), I met numerous suburbians or ghetto people in my life, and like every part of the population, some was intelligent, some was dumb, some was friendly, some insulted me or try to beat me for no reason. I will always be on the side of people who try to raise themself from the shit, not those who are doin' it. I will judge a guy if for me he's doing wrong, his background don't excuse him, and understand or not is not the problem right now. Sarkozy provoque them? OK, he's a motherf***er, feeding himself from the shit happening. We need the projects to be destroy and rebuild wisely, we need people to be less racist, we need jobs for everybody, we all agree on that, no need to argue, but violence is not excusable, and lead nowhere. Go and try to tell them, I bet they will smack you up, you the great wiseman.
As I said since the beginning, that's my opinion. People are free to have an opinion anywhere they live. People are free to take from my words and yours, and make their own opinion about it too.
As for records related, no big deal, anyway you didn't ask me to keep them exclusively for you, so it's cool with me, BUT I will do like I read nothing from you about the 8???/30??? record argument, cause that type of juvenile and unknowledgeable shit really makes me angry. I hope that's a sort of joke, right?
jesus christ, yeah myspace is good for getting a vd, not so good for news
yo einstein, I wrote that. I live in the suburbs of paris & lived here all my life, so mind you I know what I'm talkin about. now if you wanna trust the bullshit you get on the news instead I don't care, you're probably brainwashed already anyway
"iam sorry but it is muslims doing this "
Iam sorry but you don't know shit !
Merci Dela d'essayer de remettre les pendules ?? l'heure... t'as raison... Einstein a eu droit ?? un bon lavage de cerveau fa??on Bush sans m??me s'en rendre compte! Malheureusement on n'y ??chappe pas non plus... Allez, on oublie tout ??a et on va acheter des disques!
Comments
Is that mean that you will never buy that records you hold for monthes?
Just kiddin'
LOL, It's all a matter of taste, I personally don't drink milk, it makes me vomit as soon as I taste it !
Is it ever! According to you they should just buckle down and get with the program ??? I would love to hear your views on race riots in America.
It???s not the whole population in the outskirts ??? it is the most disenfranchised: young men between 16 and 25 mostly. I guess because they wear brand name sweats ??? they have no right to be pissed off at being born in France, taught in French schools, sold on the idea of ???equality, liberty and fraternity??? and then not be given any of those things. Kids who were born in France, whose parents were born in France, get stopped and asked for identity papers, the opportunity for decent jobs and decent housing is not realized due to racism that is ingrained and maintained.
You???re right, it is about weakness, but if the population is malnourished ??? they will be weak and very angry.
It must be nice to be you ??? have it all figured out and place blame as needed.
Don't mean to talk like a book but I'm trying to be objective here. It's more than naive to say that all you need to do to raise yourself from the poverty swamp is to try a little harder. You need opportunity too and if it ain't there, you stay festering where you are. No hope, no future. And you think that when mayhem descends people are going to be selective about the type of destruction they inflict? It's a fucking RIOT! You're right about Sarkozy though.
They way you people say Muslim reads like Nigger. Yeah, I said you people.
Perhaps you people should differentiate between Muslim as a cultural indentity vs. a strict religious classification? While many of these kids are called "Muslim" they are about as (Islamic)religious as a Pernod soaked porkchop. Therein lies the problem.
They way you people say Muslim reads like Nigger. Yeah, I said you people.
Perhaps you people should differentiate between Muslim as a cultural indentity vs. a strict religious classification? While many of these kids are called "Muslim" they are about as (Islamic)religious as a Pernod soaked porkchop. Therein lies the problem.
Agreed. This isn't about religion it's about social exclsion.
By MICHEL GURFINKIEL
November 8, 2005
PARIS - A curfew was set up yesterday at Le Raincy, a neighborhood in the eastern suburbs of Paris. The order was issued by the local conservative mayor, Eric Raoult. The prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, made clear on television that similar measures might soon be enforced on a broader scale. "Restoring public safety is our top priority," he said. After 11 days and nights of rioting, the country was coming close to a civil war.
A map published in the afternoon by Le Monde showed that ethnic violence - the "French Intifada," as it is being referred to by some journalists and political leaders - had spread almost all over the country, with the exception of Inner Brittany, western Normandy, and Burgundy, where North African and black communities are small, and Corsica, where a large North African community is held in check by a local nationalist movement that itself is prone to violence. Most major cities, including Lyons, Marseille, Lille, Toulouse, and Bordeaux, have been hit.
Rioting and guerrilla-style street fighting were still rampant in the northern Parisian county of Seine-Saint-Denis - colloquially known as 9-3, after its postal code - where the whole thing started on October 27. The five other Parisian counties were hurt as well. The inner city itself, the ultra-chic City of Paris, was subjected to several ethnic raids over the weekend.
In terms of destruction and casualties, the balance sheet is horrendous. Between Sunday and Monday night, no fewer than 1,408 cars, including buses and trucks, were torched throughout the country. Schools, colleges, sports facilities, factories, shopping arcades, and even two churches - one in Lens, in the north, and one in Sete, on the Mediterranean - were burned. A local resident who attempted to stop a fire was beaten to death in Stains. Elsewhere, a disabled woman narrowly escaped being burned alive in a torched bus. Dozens of firefighters were wounded.
The first question one must ask is why the French government, admittedly one of the strongest and most centralized in the world, and certainly in Europe, did not consider imposing some measure of martial law in the violence-ridden areas much earlier.
There are many constitutional and legal provisions that would have allowed such steps. According to Article 16 of the 1958 constitution, the French president can resort to "exceptional powers" in case of a "major crisis": All he has to do is to consult with the prime minister, the chairpersons of both houses of Parliament, and the president of the Constitutional Council, who all four happen to be loyal followers.
According to Article 36, martial law can be decreed for a period of 12 days, and then confirmed by Parliament for extended 12-day periods, if necessary. The present Parliament is conservative-dominated. As for regular curfews, they can be decreed by the Cabinet without further review under a 1955 law. Moreover, it is an open secret that the for about 15 years French defense forces had made at least contingency plans for "urban battles" similar to what is happening now.
One reason for the government's procrastination has been that in a crisis scenario, much depends on the president, Jacques Chirac, and he suffered a minor stroke several weeks ago. Another reason is that both Mr. Chirac and his heir apparent, Mr. Villepin, were not entirely unhappy about the rioting, at least in its first stage, since it was a blow to their political rival within the conservative camp, the minister of the interior, Nicolas Sarkozy.
The temptation to sack Mr. Sarkozy - as a token of appeasement - may have loomed over them for several days at least. Moreover, Messrs. Chirac and Villepin have built their political identity on a Gaullist pro-Arab and pro-Islamic stand that became fully apparent three years ago, when France distanced itself from America in respect of Iraq. They may expect to harvest a large "immigrant vote" in the coming presidential and parliamentary elections, in 2007, and be reluctant to jeopardize it by taking an aggressive law and order line now.
Still, more factors may have played as well. The government may have been genuinely surprised and intimidated. It is one thing to know in theory that France has undergone major ethnic changes over the past 30 years and another thing altogether to confront a mass ethnic insurgency. The figures are inescapable. There are about 60 million inhabitants in continental France, plus 2 million citizens in the overseas territories (essentially the French West Indies and La Reunion island in the Indian Ocean). About 20 million, most of them white and Christian, are over 50.
Out of the remaining 40 million or so, 10 million or so belong to the ethnic minorities: Muslim North Africans, Muslim Turks or Near Easterners, Muslim Black Africans, Christian West Indian, African or Reunionese blacks. When one regards to the youngest age brackets, the proportion is even larger. It is estimated that 35% of all French inhabitants under 20, and 50% of all inhabitants in the major urban centers, belong to the ethnic minorities. Islam alone may claim respectively 30% and 45%. Since war is essentially the business of youths, the combatant ratio in any ethnic war may thus be one to one.
Which brings us to a second question: How ethnic is the present violence in France? Liberal commentators, both in France and abroad, tend to say that poverty and unemployment, rather than race or religion, are the driving force behind the riots. Mr. Villepin himself tends to share this view, at least in part. He said yesterday on TV that he is earmarking enormous credits for housing rehabilitation, education, and state-supported jobs in the areas where the unrest has developed. But the fact remains that only ethnic youths are rioting, that most of them explicitly pledge allegiance to Islam and such Muslim heroes as Osama bin Laden, that the Islamic motto - Allahu Akbar - is usually their war cry, and that they submit only to archconservative or radical imams.
The fact also remains, according to many witnesses, that the rioters torch only "white" cars, meaning white owned cars, and spare "Islamic" or "black" ones. One way to discriminate between them is to look for ethnic signs like a sticker with Koranic verses or a picture of the Kaaba in Mekka or a stylized map of Africa. Further evidence of the animating influence in the riots lies with the French rap music to which the perpetrators listen. Such music obsessively describes White France as a sexual prey.
A third and last question is what impact this unprecedented ordeal is likely to have on France and Europe? One would reasonably expect the French government to restore its grip over the country. What matters, however, is the long-term outcome. My guess is that the crisis will not be so easily forgotten or washed away among the "non-ethnic" citizens, including those of alien stock who have fully integrated into the French society as it is. Rejection of Islam and of North African, Black African, and Middle Eastern immigration may increase dramatically. And the prospect of Turkey acceding to the European Union may get even dimmer.
Mr. Gurfinkiel is the editor of Valeurs Actuelles, a Paris-based journal.
and so the ping pong game begins!!!
_____________________________
French Hoping Curfews Bring End to Unrest
By CHRISTINE OLLIVIER, Associated Press Writer
Tue Nov 8,11:12 AM ET
PARIS - President Jacques Chirac declared a state of emergency Tuesday, paving the way for curfews to be imposed on riot-hit cities and towns in an extraordinary measure to halt France's worst civil unrest in decades after 12 nights of violence.
Police, meanwhile, said overnight unrest Monday-Tuesday, was still widespread and destructive but not as violent as previous nights.
"The intensity of this violence is on the way down," National Police Chief Michel Gaudin said, citing fewer attacks on public buildings and fewer direct clashes between youths and police. He said rioting was reported in 226 towns across France, compared with nearly 300 the night before.
The state-of-emergency decree ??? invoked under a 50-year-old law ??? allows curfews where needed and will become effective at midnight Tuesday, with an initial 12-day limit. Police who have been massively reinforced as the violence has fanned out from its initial flash point in Paris' northeastern suburbs were expected to enforce the curfews. The army has not been called in.
The mayhem sweeping the neglected and impoverished neighborhoods with large African and Arab communities is forcing France to confront anger building for decades among residents who complain of discrimination and unemployment. Although many of the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.[/b]
Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight, compared with 1,408 vehicles Sunday-Monday, police said. A total of 330 people were arrested, down from 395 the night before.
Local officials "will be able to impose curfews on the areas where this decision applies," Chirac said at a Cabinet meeting. "It is necessary to accelerate the return to calm."
The recourse to a 1955 state-of-emergency law that dates back to France's war in Algeria was a measure both of the gravity of mayhem that has spread to hundreds of French towns and cities and of the determination of Chirac's sorely tested government to quash it.
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said curfew violators could be sentenced to up to two months imprisonment, adding that restoring order "will take time."
"We are facing determined individuals, structured gangs," Villepin told parliament on Tuesday. He vowed that France will "guarantee public order to all of our citizens."
Under the emergency decree, local government officials will be able to put people under house arrest and demand that weapons be handed over. Public spaces where gangs gather can be closed. Disobedience could lead to up to two months in prison, Villepin said.
The violence erupted Oct. 27 as a localized riot in a northeast Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers, of Mauritanian and Tunisian descent, who were electrocuted while hiding from police in a power substation. It has grown into a nationwide insurrection by disillusioned suburban youths.
Villepin also reached out to the heavily immigrant suburbs, acknowledging that racial discrimination there is as a "daily and repeated" fact of life. He said job seekers with foreign-sounding names are sometimes not given equal consideration as those with French names, adding that fighting such prejudice "must become a priority."
The violence claimed its first victim Monday, with the death of a 61-year-old man beaten into a coma last week. Foreign governments have warned tourists to be careful in France. Apparent copycat attacks have spread to Belgium and Germany, where cars were burned.
France is using fast-track trials to punish rioters, worrying some human rights campaigners.
At one court in the northeastern Paris suburb of Bobigny, 60 riot-related cases were processed in one day and the court has called in three extra magistrates to deal with the overflow.
The Justice Ministry said Tuesday that 52 adults and 23 minors have been sentenced to prison or detention centers.
The resort to curfews drew immediate criticism from Chirac's political opponents. Former Socialist Prime Minister Laurent Fabius said the emergency measures must be "controlled very, very closely."
Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet said the decree could enflame rioters. "It could be taken anew as a sort of challenge to carry out more violence," she said.
Rioters in the southern city of Toulouse ordered passengers off a bus, then set it on fire and pelted police with gasoline bombs and rocks. Youths also torched another bus in the northeastern Paris suburb of Stains, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said.
Outside Paris in Sevran, a junior high school was set ablaze, while in the suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine youths threw gasoline bombs at a hospital, Hamon said. Nobody was injured.
Rioters also attacked a police station with gasoline bombs in Chenove, in Burgundy's Cote D'Or, Hamon said. A nursery school in Lille-Fives, in northern France, was set on fire, regional officials said.
Never has rioting struck so many French cities simultaneously, said security expert Sebastian Roche, a director of research at the state-funded National Center for Scientific Research.
When I moved to France in 89 you only saw the faintest glimmer of these issues. Touche pas ma pote and other anti-racist campaigns. I remember we played a soccer match against another lycee from the burbs and all of my inner-city homies were scared to change in the locker room afterwards, saying shit like these guys will hurt you. In talking to most French people they just didn't get how similar the situation to some many other western countries like ours, where people are marginalized because of race and class (and religion).
In 94 I went back and the all the kids from the projects were wearing starter jackets and listening to hip-hop. Overnight it was like a mini-version of the US. Street corner drug dealing, violence, etc. That year the first youth riots broke out. My friends were shocked. These kids seemed like aliens to them. I remember telling people to get ready for a whole lot more because the root causes were not being addressed, just like we will not deal with the ghetto here.
In 2003 I went back again. Most of my liberal friends were very unsympathetic to the plight of the suburban kids because their personal daily interactions were so hostile. In places like Les Halles the surburban kids pour in on the weekends. Hanging out with not much to do. My host sister complained about young men harrassing her constantly. It is not hard to see why the situation gets so polarized.
To me the situation is a classic tale of ghettoization and lack of opportunity. There must be some sort of inclusion culture or people on the outs are going to react, however stupidly. On the predictable note. Look for a short-term fix to be put in place but nothing to really change until it gets much worse.
yeah mosques and orgs would be crazy for making public appeals to riot, these are not deeply religious people that are doing this (like fatback said) the muslim youth of europe do not have deep religious convictions, they drink, do drugs, have casual sex, they pull out the religion when it comes to keeping women under their control
i know that in england that other immigrants from asia (hindus) dont have problems with unemployment and poverty and they are often confused for being muslims, while muslim immigrants from the same areas of asia continue to have these problems.
would any of the many french sociologists in this thread like to answer a question for me, is there a large hindu population in france at all? and where are they in all this?
Sometimes you seem smart and other times, when you say shit like this ??? you sound just like every ???militant??? you shit on. Same tactics, different words. Who the fuck are you exactly to speak about something you know nothing about? Or did you read this in some journal written by a European academic?
When was the last time you lived in Europe, knew European men of Arab descent or dated an European man of Arab descent?
This is totally fucking disgusting dude. Let's see you make these kinds of generalizations about Blacks, Hispanics, Jews or women.
yeah, no one would disagree this is a problem. a good amount of the french population has this phobia of immigrants (not unlike most americans who constantly call for stronger border patrol)...which causes this kind of abuse from the police.
BUT
trashing your neighborhood, setting wheelchair-bound old ladies on fire, burning down community centers and pre-schools (yes, this actually happened) isn't going to solve shit. this kind of behavior is simply perpetuating the already racist stereotypes growing among the french, and is absolutely counter productive for the integration of these kids into mainstream society. you can't blame the french govt for everything...a lot of these communities refuse integration and constantly seek to differentiate themselves as outsiders due to misplaced rage and "tete dure" islamic fundamentalism which clashes with the western values promoted by the french government. anyway, back to the point...these riots are the result of a few angry kids who are completely destroying their communities and reinforcing the stereotypes already engrained in the minds of the conservative french population...in fact, this is the FN's wet-dream (the conspiracy theorist in me would even venture to say that some of these immigrant youths are being paid off by the FN to instigate violence): a media circus displaying non-whites burning shit and promoting anti-social behavior...all this is setting the stage for a face off between sarkozy and le-pen (basically the french will be divided between right-wing and ultra-right-wing) for the next presidential elections.
as one community member said on international french television after seeing the words "nique ta mere sarkozy" (go fuck your mom sarkozy) keyed into his car..."it's not sarkozy they fucked over this time, it's me."
I think this thread started out as an inquiry re: shipping to and from France.
SG
is that like having both a Bush and a Blair?
if so, I would riot too...
A bit of a sweeping generalisation I feel...
I'm afraid that just isn't true, considering the area that I live in UK has one of the largest asian populations in the UK and high unemployment, so can vouch for the fact that both Indian and Pakistani youths are unemployed.The religion that they follow has no bearing on the situation that they find themselves in (Muslim,Hindu or Sikh).
It seems as if a lot of people here have strong feelings against the muslim community...
I agree. This is hardly the best way to bring about positive change. And no one side is fully to blame, it???s obviously a lot of different factors working together. The way this happened will do more damage than good, definitely in the short-term. But this is obviously anger past the point of reason.
Sarkzoy is not this one-dimensional guy either, he has done things that to some would seem contradictory. Both he and the President have expressed that France???s integration system may be flawed ??? this is a good start.
let me make something clear, i hate all religions equally
yes i do read things by "european academics", so you are saying if i went out with some dude that was a european muslim, or made out with a morrocan at a club i would know more than if i had done studies and research on the subject or by reading these studies
i can make baptist jokes all day if you want
Working Class France...
For some days now, radio and television stations from around the world have been contacting me requesting interviews regarding the events that have been shaking up the suburbs of France.
Unfortunately, I cannot honor all of these requests and so I have decided to express myself through my website.
As much as I would like to distance myself from politics, it is difficult to remain distant in the face of the depravations of politicians. And when these depravations draw the hate of all youth, I have to restrain myself from encouraging the rioters.
Nicolas SARKOZY, who has appeared in the French media like a starlet from American Idol and who for the past years has been showering us with details of his private life and his political ambitions, cannot help himself from creating an event every time his ratings in the IPSOS polls go down. This time, Nicolas SARKOZY has gone against everything the French Republic stands for. The Liberty, the Equality and the Fraternity of a people.
The Minister of the Interior, a future presidential candidate, holds ideas that not only reveal his inexperience of politics and human relations (which are intimately linked), but that also illuminate the purely demagogical and egocentric aspects of a puny, would be Napoleon.
If the suburbs are exploding once again today, it is not due to being generally fed up with the conditions of life that entire generations of ???immigrants??? must fight with every day. There is not, unfortunately, anything political in the combat that is pitting the youth of low rent housing projects against Nicolas SARKOZY???s police forces. These burning cars are surface eruptions in the face of the lack of respect the Minister of the Interior has shown toward their community.
Nicolas SARKOZY does not like this community, he wants to get rid of this ???these punks??? with high pressure water hoses and he shouts it out loud and clear right in the middle of a ???hot??? neighborhood at eleven in the evening.
The response is in the streets. ???Zero tolerance??? works both ways.
It is intolerable that a politician (but is he really one?) should allow himself to upset a situation made tense by years of ignorance and injustice and not refrain from openly threatening an entire segment of the French population without addressing the real problems.
By acting like a warmonger, he has opened a breach that I hope will engulf him. Hate has kindled hate for centuries and yet Nicolas SARKOZY still thinks that repression is the only way to prevent rebellion. This desire to impose his way of thinking at any price reminds me of other great leaders of our times. It gives me chills down the spine.
History has proved to us that a lack of openness and philosophy between different communities engenders hate and confrontation. The Intifada of different Parisian suburbs rather resembles the confrontations that opposed the children of Palestine armed with stones against the soldiers of Israel armed with Uzis.
History confronts itself again everywhere.
Sound and fury are the only means for many communities to make themselves heard. The attacks of terrorists on the front pages of newspapers around the world are the result.
And the repression of terror by terror never won wars; it only helped to sustain them.
Nicolas SARKOZY is an admirer of George Bush???s communication machine. He uses it to glorifies his image and to manipulate the population.
Like BUSH, he does not defend an idea, he responds to the fears that he himself instills in people???s heads.
He would have engaged France alongside the Americans in Bush???s ???fight against terror???. I???m convinced of it.
Nicolas SARKOZY wants to become the President of our republic and ???nobody will get in his way??? as he dramaticaly puts it.
If this man does not fail at least once in his initiatives to win the presidency of this country, nothing indeed will get in his way, and his desire for absolute power will finally be fulfilled.
Does history repeat itself? Yes. It always has done. A desire for power and the egocentricity of those who think they hold the truth has ALWAYS created dictators.
Nicolas SARKOZY is certainly a little Napoleon, and I do not know if he has the potential of a real one, but it will be impossible to say tomorrow that we didn???t know.
Mathieu KASSOVITZ.
Not applicable unequivocally to all strata of French society - if you espouse a maxim as such and then make feeble attempts to avail the sons and daughters of immigrants from FORMER colonies of the opportunities afforded WHITE/CAUCASION citizens...
I'd go on about the hypocrisy of France itself, but it's really no worse than what every other country under the sun engages in... What's ironic is that a large %age of those wielding the power in the current infrastructure likely had been social activists in the misguided and completely impotent May '68 movement - sorta like how people who went on tour w/ the Dead in the '60s sport BMWs in 2005...
e.g. Capitalism - free market - but then what about (farm and textile industry) subsidies and quota tariffs? Yeah...
What is clear is that you admit not to know what you're talkin about.
REALITY.
OH?
I see, you're talkin of what "People" think, I am talkin of how the situation is.
Fantasms VS reality.
And I never said that rioters was the MAJORITY.
And by sayin that, I do not admit that rioters have an AK47 in their car... bla... bla...
ok?
Robert, you can believe what you want, you're with THE MACK, I'm too.
Check out my location quote.
Well, I don't fantasize at all.
And nothing is ending right here, but starting... you'll see (later but you'll see)
So we are still in 1976. Why not.
I mean, you think that the situation is the same as it was in 75/76...
wO!w, slow down! I don't excuse nothing/nobody, yo.
I don't know if that's me or... but you're hard to understand today.
I'VE NEVER SAY THIS SHIT IS GOOD, THIS ONE IS NOT.
I don't judge, I just try to understand.
And I try to explain to the strutters (most of 'em are American, so I think it's important) what is the situation, here.
And like Dela said, American press is talkin shit.
And I'm afraid because extremist groups could do the same, you see? No you don't...
I know you're cool.
The rioters are a minority like you said, that's the reality.
It is like you def don't want to UNDERSTAND what "People" live right there.
And it's not hard TO COME FROM a project.
It's hard TO LIVE IN a project.
Pfff!!! I wastemy time.
(PS: Of course you're right, in a way, but...)
Bla bla...
I'm tired...
Bapt
AAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!
Word up.
I don't know... since I've seen a record you sold ???30 to me, goes for ???8.
Would someone describe the LA riots as christian violence ? Most rioters were christians, right ?
Hey!
Leave my man Paul alone OK?
He has nothing to do with that!
And leave
OK You don't judge, you try to understand bla bla bla
Just a question: do you have any rioters friends? Have you ever sympathised with a guy throwing a molotov cocktail on cars? Cause understand that people, like you seems to do, imply to live, eat, doing things with this people right?
Or maybe you're like most of the people, you don't judge, you try to understand, but you stay away from them cause they don't give a fuck about you!
Understand what they do, means that if you were in the same situation, you will do the same. It means that you would be ready to burn a car, then video it on your cellular phone to show to your friends that you're the most hardcore guy in the hood. It means that you will burn more cars, cause in the infos, the speaker said your hood is more calm than the others. If you don't mean that, then it means that you think this people are weaker than you, or less inteligent. Let me know that you understand that type of behaviour. Let me know that every dumb behavior is totally understandable and excusable.
Let me know that because every behavior is understandable, you don't send nobody to jail, cause no one is responsible, it's the society!
Of course I agree with people who say "threat the illness, not the symptom", It's totally right, people here need love, education, work and responsability. But unfortunatly, once it's too late, you have to do something and judge, not only understand. Like Coluche said: "one dumb ass who walk go farther than three intelectuals who think"
you don't judge, you try to understand?
I'm sure that, in your great wisedom, if a guy burn your car, you will say: "oh OK, I understand, Sarkozy insulted him, this guy is angry, he expressed all the pain he has inside his heart and he's fed up with all this racism and segregation that plagues him since he's born". Bullshit! You're like all this people that excuse the rioters but never lived (or for certain), never seen one in his life. If I see a guy set my car on fire I smash it with a baseball bat while he's looking the car burning (if I find the courage to do it). I've seen and met many suburbians in my life, I lived most of my life in mixed/not rich area, I live right now in the most mixed area of Paris (Menilmontant), I met numerous suburbians or ghetto people in my life, and like every part of the population, some was intelligent, some was dumb, some was friendly, some insulted me or try to beat me for no reason. I will always be on the side of people who try to raise themself from the shit, not those who are doin' it. I will judge a guy if for me he's doing wrong, his background don't excuse him, and understand or not is not the problem right now. Sarkozy provoque them? OK, he's a motherf***er, feeding himself from the shit happening. We need the projects to be destroy and rebuild wisely, we need people to be less racist, we need jobs for everybody, we all agree on that, no need to argue, but violence is not excusable, and lead nowhere. Go and try to tell them, I bet they will smack you up, you the great wiseman.
As I said since the beginning, that's my opinion. People are free to have an opinion anywhere they live. People are free to take from my words and yours, and make their own opinion about it too.
As for records related, no big deal, anyway you didn't ask me to keep them exclusively for you, so it's cool with me, BUT I will do like I read nothing from you about the 8???/30??? record argument, cause that type of juvenile and unknowledgeable shit really makes me angry. I hope that's a sort of joke, right?
AAll Iwanna say its been like 15 days shit... under the radar abit but this is a long time... hopefully the army wont get involved