What!? No Ferguson Talk on Here!!?

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  • dayday 9,611 Posts
    Rockadelic said:
    day said:
    Rockadelic said:
    2) Danger: Over the last 10 years a law enforcement agent has been killed on the job in the U.S. every 58 hours. I canÔÇÖt imagine knowing this and not thinking about it every day I go to work.

    That's a little misleading (and that stat comes from Michelle Malkin of all people?). 31 cops were shot in 2013. 28 died in car crashes. You get the picture.

    This is an accurate breakdown of the last 10 years.

    http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

    I have no comment on the rest of your post, but thought it was important to clear that up.

    Just so we are on the same page I obtained that statistic from the IUPA, not Michelle Malkin. You are correct that during that time a cop has been murdered at the rate of "only" one a week. The other deaths came from car pursuits, being hit while on the side of the road and other accidents while in the process of performing their duties. I didn't claim otherwise. That same source reports that more than 65,000 police officers are assaulted each year and some 23,000 are injured annually. My point was not to use this as a comparative scorecard but to make the point that the job is dangerous and can induce fear.

    When I looked it up it all went back to Malkin as the one who promoted the statistic. I'm not downplaying the danger of being a cop (and didn't try to phrase my statement as "only one death a week" etc.). I was just bringing some clarity to the numbers.

    I wasn't making this a comparative issue either. Otherwise I would have mentioned that police deaths in the line of duty are at their lowest since 1959 while around 400 - and possibly upwards of 600 citizens a year are killed by police.
    But since no one has been keeping track that makes those stats hard to verify. http://gawker.com/what-ive-learned-from-two-years-collecting-data-on-poli-1625472836

    I'm not anti-police, but there some definite changes that need to be made nationwide. The increasing "Us vs. Them" mentality on all sides is bad, and the lack of transparency and oversight is extremely fucked up and needs to be changed. You can't have the police investigate themselves and expect it to err on the side of justice. Lapel cameras and an independent third party to review fatality cases would be a good start. And this is not talking about any particular case or race or class and all that - those are huge OTHER conversations in and of themselves.

    I recommend reading this.
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html?hp=pm_1#.U_jfF_mwLu3

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    day....I obviously agree changes need to be made....citizen review boards, better training, participation in the neighborhoods are a good start.

    JP...I will take the time to visit that podcast....I've had family members in the NYPD...I know it's not Gumdrop Island.

  • volumenvolumen 2,532 Posts
    BallzDeep said:
    volumen said:
    BallzDeep said:

    yeah it's all horseshit on both sides.
    .

    Maybe, but one side is dead and the other isn't talking.

    i mean really,
    do you actually think there is anything this cop could possibly say which would change people's minds?

    "Oh wow Officer Wilson, why didn't you say so earlier! OK everyone, we can go home now... sorry for the mess!"

    He could have actually filled out a report with his side of the story. Instead he fled and appears to be hiding the truth. So yes there is something he could say to change things. The truth.

  • volumenvolumen 2,532 Posts
    BallzDeep said:
    and what truth might you be referring to?

    There is only one, but it often has to be searched for.

  • volumenvolumen 2,532 Posts
    BallzDeep said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Take away everyone's guns.


    Is this even possible?

    Rock brings up some good points.
    I'm all for eliminating the jerkoffs on the force and not hiring new ones,
    but man, what a daunting task that would be.

    The fact that it's "daunting" as an excuse not to do it is idiotic. Better screening of applicants and better training of police is long over due.
    People are actually declined admission to the force because they are too smart. Clearly the force wants mindless robots that will treat civilians as the enemy when ordered to. It's really not that hard to clean up the police force but it may go against the plans of the powers that be. Giving people with lower intelligence guns might explain why they just start shooting when they really may not be that threaten.

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/can-someone-be-too-smart-to-be-a-cop/192106/

  • volumen said:
    Giving people with lower intelligence guns might explain why they just start shooting when they really may not be that threaten.

    not sure a correlation between low intelligence and tripper-happiness is real, but interesting article. that's insane if true.

  • volumenvolumen 2,532 Posts
    BallzDeep said:
    volumen said:
    Giving people with lower intelligence guns might explain why they just start shooting when they really may not be that threaten.

    not sure a correlation between low intelligence and tripper-happiness is real, but interesting article. that's insane if true.

    I think the correlation is in wheather they can really make an intellegent decision on weather to shoot people or not.

    This just in. Cop that shot Brown was part of a force in which everyone was fired for being so racist just 3 years ago.

    "The Ferguson police officer who shot unarmed teen Michael Brown had worked at a department that was disbanded by authorities over racial tensions, the Washington Post reports.

    Darren Wilson and the other officers at the Jennings, Missouri, police department lost their jobs three years ago. Wilson was a rookie cop at the time.

    The newspaper described the old Jennings Police Department as "a mainly white department mired in controversy and notorious for its fraught relationship with residents, especially the African American majority... not an ideal place to learn how to police."

    The city council deemed tensions between officers and black residents so bad that it was necessary to fire everyone and build a new, more credible department from scratch.

    Some officers from the disgraced department reapplied for their jobs. Wilson got a job in Ferguson, where he kept a clean disciplinary record and even earned a commendation. But that was all before the events that transpired earlier this month."

  • DuderonomyDuderonomy Haut de la Garenne 7,786 Posts
    Horseleech said:
    BallzDeep said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Take away everyone's guns.


    Is this even possible?

    Not by a million miles.

    That's the spirit.

  • Oh also fwiw BallzDeep there are NO eyewitness accounts that claim Brown charged or beat the officer. Reports (on Fox of course) of his injuries have been debunked.

  • DocMcCoyDocMcCoy "Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
    Duderonomy said:
    Horseleech said:
    BallzDeep said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Take away everyone's guns.


    Is this even possible?

    Not by a million miles.

    That's the spirit.

    Well, it isn't. The political will to make it possible doesn't exist. You may as well try and shit on the ceiling.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    DocMcCoy said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Horseleech said:
    BallzDeep said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Take away everyone's guns.


    Is this even possible?

    Not by a million miles.

    That's the spirit.

    Well, it isn't. The political will to make it possible doesn't exist. You may as well try and shit on the ceiling.

    While I don't disagree, even if the political will was there, how would you physically accomplish this....door to door searches?

  • Jonny_Paycheck said:
    Oh also fwiw BallzDeep there are NO eyewitness accounts that claim Brown charged or beat the officer. Reports (on Fox of course) of his injuries have been debunked.

    I read the eye socket fracture was false, but his face still had bad swelling?

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    DocMcCoy said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Horseleech said:
    BallzDeep said:
    Duderonomy said:
    Take away everyone's guns.


    Is this even possible?

    Not by a million miles.

    That's the spirit.

    Well, it isn't. The political will to make it possible doesn't exist. You may as well try and shit on the ceiling.

    While I don't disagree, even if the political will was there, how would you physically accomplish this....door to door searches?

    A continent-sized magnet that discrimates between gunmetal and penile piercings?

    You guys split the atom, put man on moon, single handedly won WW2 ::eye roll::
    It's simply not good enough to say it can't be done.
    What you mean by political will us that the people don't want it.
    One day they will, and you will get rid.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    skel said:
    One day they will, and you will get rid.

    How....seriously?

    Your magnet idea sounds great !

  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    Again and again, guns aren't going anywhere.

    Once-people who take on the role of rule-enforcers as their career are the problem. They get so wrapped up in the stupid rules that they are willing to kill just because someone doesn't follow their every stupid order. Fuck the whole lot of them.

    I'm so sick of the: but, but there are still good cops out there argument. No, they aren't good cops nor good people because they stick up for the institutionally criminal cops 99.99% of the time.

    We'd do more good taking 75% of the rules/laws off the books than trying to get a bunch of savage assholes trained correctly. Take away their right to bother us over jaywalking and preemptively trying to accost people because they might break a law down the road and then we'd be getting somewhere.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    Rockadelic said:
    skel said:
    One day they will, and you will get rid.

    How....seriously?

    Your magnet idea sounds great !

    I think the short term most achievable, but least likely to be achieved is that people get incrementally sick of gun violence, a charismatic leader emerges who makes it a single issue candidacy, becomes Pres and gets rid of the constitutional right.
    Then there's the possibility of Teh USA splitting up (country is only a few hundred years old, it could happen) and you get pro-gun and no-gun countries in their place. Eventual migration from pro to no via parental aspiration creates a virtuous circle.

    Then there's the technology angle. What if an altruism gene or some psychological techniques get developed whereby the urge to kill is eradicated? A Red Dwarf type of idea sure but many sci-fi warbling a seem to have miraculously happened.
    See also Justice Zones, where whatever you do gets played on you instead.

    You may laugh, but they laughed at the mobiles in Star Trek once...

  • Big_StacksBig_Stacks "I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
    Hey,

    I hope the suggested training involves teaching people to react less reflexively on their implicit biases. Just because I'm a big, Black dude, it doesn't mean that I'm dangerous or have a gun on me. Yet, unchecked unconscious biases will lead some law enforcement personnel to (erroneously) perceive a weapon despite its absence. Long ago, research has uncovered the link between suspect race-ethnicity and perceptual errors of eyewitnesses' accounts. Cops are human cognitive processors like the rest of us. Unfortunately, John Q. Public doesn't realize this, hence the tendency to side with law enforcement's accounts of events.

    Peace,

    Big Stacks from Kakalak

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    skel said:
    Rockadelic said:
    skel said:
    One day they will, and you will get rid.

    How....seriously?

    Your magnet idea sounds great !

    I think the short term most achievable, but least likely to be achieved is that people get incrementally sick of gun violence, a charismatic leader emerges who makes it a single issue candidacy, becomes Pres and gets rid of the constitutional right.
    Then there's the possibility of Teh USA splitting up (country is only a few hundred years old, it could happen) and you get pro-gun and no-gun countries in their place. Eventual migration from pro to no via parental aspiration creates a virtuous circle.

    Then there's the technology angle. What if an altruism gene or some psychological techniques get developed whereby the urge to kill is eradicated? A Red Dwarf type of idea sure but many sci-fi warbling a seem to have miraculously happened.
    See also Justice Zones, where whatever you do gets played on you instead.

    You may laugh, but they laughed at the mobiles in Star Trek once...

    I'm not laughing.......well, I am laughing at the idea of migration from pro to no as the reality is, if voluntary, it would be the complete opposite.

    As your Star Trekkian technology progresses to allow some sort of miracle solution it will be on the heels of current 3D printing technology which allows anyone to manufacture a working firearm in their home.

    The only feasible idea imo is the elimination of the manufacturing of ammunition...and maybe, eventually, we will run out. But this would have to be done on a global level.

    I agree with Harvey that many of the laws on our books are unecessary and the police officers job should be simplified. But for every fucked up asshole cop there are 100 fucked up asshole citizens and I don't want to be at the mercy of either.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    Someone asked me a question about this case today and I'm going to throw it out as catnip to the SS masses. This is intended as a stand alone question and should not be confused with any kind of justification or bridge to what happened later on in the day.

    If the store owner who was robbed and "assaulted" by what appears to be Michael Brown in that video had shot and killed him, would he have been arrested/indicted/convicted?.

  • Rockadelic said:
    skel said:
    Rockadelic said:
    skel said:
    One day they will, and you will get rid.

    How....seriously?

    Your magnet idea sounds great !

    I think the short term most achievable, but least likely to be achieved is that people get incrementally sick of gun violence, a charismatic leader emerges who makes it a single issue candidacy, becomes Pres and gets rid of the constitutional right.
    Then there's the possibility of Teh USA splitting up (country is only a few hundred years old, it could happen) and you get pro-gun and no-gun countries in their place. Eventual migration from pro to no via parental aspiration creates a virtuous circle.

    You may laugh, but they laughed at the mobiles in Star Trek once...

    I'm not laughing.......well, I am laughing at the idea of migration from pro to no as the reality is, if voluntary, it would be the complete opposite.

    CANADA FTW AS ALWAYS

  • Fred_GarvinFred_Garvin The land of wind and ghosts 337 Posts
    HarveyCanal said:
    I'm so sick of the: but, but there are still good cops out there argument. No, they aren't good cops nor good people because they stick up for the institutionally criminal cops 99.99% of the time.
    I would say it goes even beyond that. Even if we were all to determine and agree that there are good cops out there, how does that fix the problem? It changes nothing for the people who are dead/permanently injured/traumatized at the hands of the others, and their numbers continue to increase daily. Many have suggested that police officers need to be held to a higher standard, which is a huge understatement. When you teach someone that it's OK for them to decide who lives and who dies, without consequence, you've got nothing but bad road ahead, and the existence of good cops doesn't just solve that.

  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    Fred_Garvin said:
    HarveyCanal said:
    I'm so sick of the: but, but there are still good cops out there argument. No, they aren't good cops nor good people because they stick up for the institutionally criminal cops 99.99% of the time.
    I would say it goes even beyond that. Even if we were all to determine and agree that there are good cops out there, how does that fix the problem? It changes nothing for the people who are dead/permanently injured/traumatized at the hands of the others, and their numbers continue to increase daily. Many have suggested that police officers need to be held to a higher standard, which is a huge understatement. When you teach someone that it's OK for them to decide who lives and who dies, without consequence, you've got nothing but bad road ahead, and the existence of good cops doesn't just solve that.

    ^^^TRUTH.


  • vintageinfants said:

    So, if this is true, the Police department allowed him to flee jurisdiction. Doesn't that bring in the feds (U.S. Marshalls, FBI, etc.) if the Grand Jury indicts this guy. Deleting his social media accounts BTW doesn't mean jack, the internet is forever.

  • LaserWolfLaserWolf Portland Oregon 11,517 Posts
    Rockadelic said:
    Someone asked me a question about this case today and I'm going to throw it out as catnip to the SS masses. This is intended as a stand alone question and should not be confused with any kind of justification or bridge to what happened later on in the day.

    If the store owner who was robbed and "assaulted" by what appears to be Michael Brown in that video had shot and killed him, would he have been arrested/indicted/convicted?.

    He most likely would have been arrested and indicted. Most likely convicted, of manslaughter or 3rd degree. In Oregon.

    The corner shop down the street from me is robbed on a regular basis. And I mean held up at gun point. It is likely that Ira has had more guns pulled on him than the cop investigating. Shop lifting, shoving? I would guess that happens daily. But convenience store clerks rarely shoot people who rob them.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    Ok, I got it.
    Everyone north of the Mason Dixon necks an E. those south, 2.
    Govt broadcasts Wish You Were Here on a 24 hour loop.
    Follows it up with Imagine and All You Need Is Love live at the Shea, hologram Lennon and Harrison.
    Tupac and Biggie holograms join in, guns are bad be the message.
    Cameos by Jerry Garcia and SRV,
    Summer of Love v.3, Haliburton stock down to 0.01, victory.

  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    skel said:
    Ok, I got it.
    Everyone north of the Mason Dixon necks an E. those south, 2.
    Govt broadcasts Wish You Were Here on a 24 hour loop.
    Follows it up with Imagine and All You Need Is Love live at the Shea, hologram Lennon and Harrison.
    Tupac and Biggie holograms join in, guns are bad be the message.
    Cameos by Jerry Garcia and SRV,
    Summer of Love v.3, Haliburton stock down to 0.01, victory.

    People would only be mad that the holograms don't actually bleed from their gunshots.

  • skelskel You can't cheat karma 5,033 Posts
    HarveyCanal said:
    skel said:
    Ok, I got it.
    Everyone north of the Mason Dixon necks an E. those south, 2.
    Govt broadcasts Wish You Were Here on a 24 hour loop.
    Follows it up with Imagine and All You Need Is Love live at the Shea, hologram Lennon and Harrison.
    Tupac and Biggie holograms join in, guns are bad be the message.
    Cameos by Jerry Garcia and SRV,
    Summer of Love v.3, Haliburton stock down to 0.01, victory.

    People would only be mad that the holograms don't actually bleed from their gunshots.

    Lol
    I'm imagineering Beatles collectros lining up to holo Lennon, paying a c to wipe dey Double Fantasy over the holo Chapman gunshot wound.

  • HarveyCanalHarveyCanal "a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
    skel said:
    HarveyCanal said:
    skel said:
    Ok, I got it.
    Everyone north of the Mason Dixon necks an E. those south, 2.
    Govt broadcasts Wish You Were Here on a 24 hour loop.
    Follows it up with Imagine and All You Need Is Love live at the Shea, hologram Lennon and Harrison.
    Tupac and Biggie holograms join in, guns are bad be the message.
    Cameos by Jerry Garcia and SRV,
    Summer of Love v.3, Haliburton stock down to 0.01, victory.

    People would only be mad that the holograms don't actually bleed from their gunshots.

    Lol
    I'm imagineering Beatles collectros lining up to holo Lennon, paying a c to wipe dey Double Fantasy over the holo Chapman gunshot wound.

    Oh, so you're saying he is bigger than Jesus?

    ...*machine gun fire from every direction*

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,901 Posts
    Federal Law Ordering US Attorney General To Gather Data On Police Excessive Force Has Been Ignored For 20 Years

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140822/07034228290/federal-law-ordering-us-attorney-general-to-gather-data-police-excessive-force-has-been-ignored-20-years.shtml
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