So what kind of clusterfuck is this? US sends Israel lots of military aid, most of it used against Palestinians. Palestinians are getting shitty rockets and other arms from Qatar... who are buying from the US?
lmfao... it's always a matter of time before someone whips out BUT WHAT ABOUT BLACK ON BLACK CRIME!
Bullshit.
We have a war going on in our own damn country, who the fuck cares who is killing who....are these lost lives somehow less important because of "black on black" crime.....smdh ..we should be just as concerned, if not moreso, that this is happening to our citizens.
We can't fix our own damn problems but we want to tell everyone else how to fix theirs.
the reason I am chucking is because there is no silence *in* the communities of Chicago, Brownsville, Oakland, and other wartorn neighborhoods. There is no silence on the subject of gun control... unemployment... unequal enforcement of the law... the school-to-prison pipeline... slave labor... recidivism... oh wait.... but there *is* silence... among people who are not affected... among our "representative" government... let me suggest also that if this were happening in WHITE communities there would be national outrage. But Black bodies in this country are worth less than almost anything. I think Palestinian bodies are worth a bit less...
perhaps you are not aware of the various/multitudinous efforts to combat gang violence in Chicago... that's fine. But that's not the same as it not existing.
and it's another thread altogether. one that exists already. on this website.
the reason I am chucking is because there is no silence *in* the communities of Chicago, Brownsville, Oakland, and other wartorn neighborhoods. There is no silence on the subject of gun control... unemployment... unequal enforcement of the law... the school-to-prison pipeline... slave labor... recidivism... oh wait.... but there *is* silence... among people who are not affected... among our "representative" government... let me suggest also that if this were happening in WHITE communities there would be national outrage. But Black bodies in this country are worth less than almost anything. I think Palestinian bodies are worth a bit less...
perhaps you are not aware of the various/multitudinous efforts to combat gang violence in Chicago... that's fine. But that's not the same as it not existing.
and it's another thread altogether. one that exists already. on this website.
I don't disagree....but those same people who are "not affected" by what happens in our Inner Cities ARE all about being outraged about what is happening 1,000's of miles away which in reality affect them even less than what is going on here. Glass houses and stuff...our efforts are failing miserably.
I am just as repelled by people who grasp onto causes of conscience/convenience when there's stuff happening in their own back yard... the level of inconsistency there... children in Chicago, children from El Salvador, children in Palestine.... they're children, man
at the same time, Israel is supported by billions of our tax dollars... it is *absolutely* our business.
and the majority of Americans (just not on websites like soulstrut) are supportive of Israel. Not a single U.S. Senator has uttered a word of criticism. Sec. Kerry is getting pilloried by the conservative and establishment media... for suggesting a cease-fire predicated partially on Palestinian demands. I was watching MSNBC (!) this morning and all of the wealthy, white pundits agreed that Israel basically had to continue its conquest of Gaza. Even the ones who were squeamish about dead babies and stuff.
would it make you feel better if I showed you some non-white pundits who also want Hamas vanquished?
it might make me feel better if you showed me some non-wealthy ones
but Hamas being vanquished is not my issue. I'm under no illusions as to the nobility of either side. my concern is how that is done, and at what cost (both to Israel and to the Palestinians)
at the same time, Israel is supported by billions of our tax dollars... it is *absolutely* our business.
thoughts on why fools rampage in the streets of Berlin and Paris, though?
obviously not blaming anyone in this thread for that, just soliciting your thoughts.
I (personally) find the idea that many US citizens get so heated over the Israel situation (and not other situations) solely because of how much aid we send them to be a laughable explanation. but at least there's some logic to it.
I don't really. We can argue about the definition of "occupation," and whether Israel's evacuation from Gaza's soil but continued control over airspace and coast represents full occupation/semi-occupation/whatever.
but the idea that a country can't be attacked from an area over which it exerts air and maritime control (which is her point of departure) is absurd.
my question is this: is that cat really playing that melody or are its paws being controlled by a human? I looked it up on wikipedia but it does not state whether the footage is or is considered to be genuine. it describes the cat as "playing" (in quotes). I want to believe a cat is actually capable of doing this..
at the same time, Israel is supported by billions of our tax dollars... it is *absolutely* our business.
thoughts on why fools rampage in the streets of Berlin and Paris, though?
obviously not blaming anyone in this thread for that, just soliciting your thoughts.
I (personally) find the idea that many US citizens get so heated over the Israel situation (and not other situations) solely because of how much aid we send them to be laughable. but there's at least some logic to it.
what's jacques' and fritz's excuse?
How we spend our tax dollars is one of the most important issues at stake. As Rich alludes to, there are a lot of problems stateside that the money we give Israel could address. America is going through a period of isolationism. Tax dollars to serve the interests of the wealthy being paid disproportionately by the lower and middle classes... but that's another issue.
I really don't know enough about either France or Germany to speak on that. There are significant Muslim populations in both countries, and allegiances being what they are, I could see how the current conflict could inspire idiots to do awful things. (for what it's worth, there have been reports of racist, anti-Arab/anti-Palestinian mobs in Israel as well... but let's move on) In America, you had plenty of reasonable people who decided after 9/11 that Islamic Extremism was a real problem. Others took it to mean KILL DA MOOSLUMS and they tied it to their own ignorance/racism that already existed. So it goes.
One of the things that most depresses me in all of this is how much I feel like it's totally lost on otherwise well-meaning Jews and Israelis how awful Israel looks to the outside world, and how that has nothing to do with anti-semitism. When I was growing up, I saw people lose friends, get blacklisted, called anti-semitic... for daring to criticize Israel. For a long time, the idea that Israel can do no wrong has been accepted as gospel in this country (can't speak for other countries, just not familiar enough to comment). and that has in turn led to missed opportunities on the Israeli side and a lot of resentment elsewhere.
One thing that could be said is, if everyone opposing Israel is all of a sudden an anti-semite (not saying you believe this, but some do) then everyone supporting them is a Zionist. For what it's worth, back around the Iraq War I marched a bunch in SF and there were tons of really suspect anti-semitic signs and shit. It's not cool. But I wonder how much Israel considers the damage they do to the Jewish Brandtm with this kind of shit. I'm not sure that's something in the discussion at all.
So what kind of clusterfuck is this? US sends Israel lots of military aid, most of it used against Palestinians. Palestinians are getting shitty rockets and other arms from Qatar... who are buying from the US?
So what kind of clusterfuck is this? US sends Israel lots of military aid, most of it used against Palestinians. Palestinians are getting shitty rockets and other arms from Qatar... who are buying from the US?
I think it's totally fair to *note* the disparity in levels of outrage between, say, an Israeli offensive that is at least arguably justified on some security grounds and, say, the Syrian regime's completely unjustifiable, sustained 3-yr offensive against a civilian population during which comparable numbers of women and children have died over single 48-hr periods as have died since the start of the current 3-wk Gaza mess.
(and no, pointing out the brutality of Israel's neighbors does not make me feel better about Israel's actions.)
(and yes I realize that Israel is among the several Middle Eastern countries who receive large chunks of the 2% of our fed budget devoted to foreign military aid.)
(and no I'm not suggesting anyone in here has any particular animus towards certain national/religious/ethnic group).
(and yes of course you all in this thread have your very own personal, sober reasons for giving a shit about the Arab-Israel conflict above and beyond any other international clusterfuck. In fact, I'm absolutely sure you all do and I'm not really interested in hearing them.)
But you can't blame Israel supporters for, I dunno, taking note of the massive gap in shit-giving.
and that gap can translate to a perception of double-standard in the eyes of a lot of Israel-supporters. I don't go around accusing every Israel-hater of being anti-Semitic. but a historically scape-goated people can be forgiven for sometimes wondering where that perceived double-standard is coming from. unfortunately it's in our DNA to wonder.
well... we are "no greater friend to Israel" and all that...
we are not "no greater friend to Assad"
although now we're I guess kinda gonna get in bed with him because, ISIS.
but that being said, that is within Syria, a protracted Civil War.
as you know, the Israel-Palestinian conflict goes back a long ways and is far more controversial with people falling all along the spectrum from "kill all Jews" to "kill all Arabs" to "1967 Borders" to "some settlements ok but maybe let's stop now?" and everywhere in between.
I don't think "but they do it/are worse" is strong logic. Gotta look at the shit in its own context.
Other than to make a weak and deflective point, I don't get why there is the repeated assumption that this Board is the only place one can and does exercise concern, outrage, activism, etc. etc. for any of the other examples of sheer brutality, hypocrisy and plain old fuckery happening around the world.
Yea, this Board is all we have to go by about eachother...exactly my point.
I don't think "but they do it/are worse" is strong logic. Gotta look at the shit in its own context.
again, I'd hate to have to resort to comparing Israel to Assad in order to comfort myself/justify anything. i don't do that and I wouldn't.
just letting you know how it looks from where a lot of us stand. don't march down my block screaming about innocent civilians dying if that's not really what you're mad about.
I would say a contemporary genocidalsettler colonialethnocraticapartheid regime currently getting away with wanton sadistic slaughter with impunity and bankrolled by the US is pretty unique as far as modern day abominations and deserving of a special outrage.
Comments
Five Israeli talking points debunked by Noura Erakat
lol I know this girl.
CHICAGO
Where's the outrage?
How do you rate the article?
Bullshit.
We have a war going on in our own damn country, who the fuck cares who is killing who....are these lost lives somehow less important because of "black on black" crime.....smdh ..we should be just as concerned, if not moreso, that this is happening to our citizens.
We can't fix our own damn problems but we want to tell everyone else how to fix theirs.
perhaps you are not aware of the various/multitudinous efforts to combat gang violence in Chicago... that's fine. But that's not the same as it not existing.
and it's another thread altogether. one that exists already. on this website.
I don't disagree....but those same people who are "not affected" by what happens in our Inner Cities ARE all about being outraged about what is happening 1,000's of miles away which in reality affect them even less than what is going on here. Glass houses and stuff...our efforts are failing miserably.
at the same time, Israel is supported by billions of our tax dollars... it is *absolutely* our business.
and the majority of Americans (just not on websites like soulstrut) are supportive of Israel. Not a single U.S. Senator has uttered a word of criticism. Sec. Kerry is getting pilloried by the conservative and establishment media... for suggesting a cease-fire predicated partially on Palestinian demands. I was watching MSNBC (!) this morning and all of the wealthy, white pundits agreed that Israel basically had to continue its conquest of Gaza. Even the ones who were squeamish about dead babies and stuff.
would it make you feel better if I showed you some non-white pundits who also want Hamas vanquished?
it might make me feel better if you showed me some non-wealthy ones
but Hamas being vanquished is not my issue. I'm under no illusions as to the nobility of either side. my concern is how that is done, and at what cost (both to Israel and to the Palestinians)
thoughts on why fools rampage in the streets of Berlin and Paris, though?
obviously not blaming anyone in this thread for that, just soliciting your thoughts.
I (personally) find the idea that many US citizens get so heated over the Israel situation (and not other situations) solely because of how much aid we send them to be a laughable explanation. but at least there's some logic to it.
what's jacques' and fritz's excuse?
It's the new Godwin's, I tells ya
Godwizzle.
Fuck North America's support of them. Canada is really embarassing across the board. Disgrace.
I don't really. We can argue about the definition of "occupation," and whether Israel's evacuation from Gaza's soil but continued control over airspace and coast represents full occupation/semi-occupation/whatever.
but the idea that a country can't be attacked from an area over which it exerts air and maritime control (which is her point of departure) is absurd.
I DEMAND AN ANSWER!!!
How we spend our tax dollars is one of the most important issues at stake. As Rich alludes to, there are a lot of problems stateside that the money we give Israel could address. America is going through a period of isolationism. Tax dollars to serve the interests of the wealthy being paid disproportionately by the lower and middle classes... but that's another issue.
I really don't know enough about either France or Germany to speak on that. There are significant Muslim populations in both countries, and allegiances being what they are, I could see how the current conflict could inspire idiots to do awful things. (for what it's worth, there have been reports of racist, anti-Arab/anti-Palestinian mobs in Israel as well... but let's move on) In America, you had plenty of reasonable people who decided after 9/11 that Islamic Extremism was a real problem. Others took it to mean KILL DA MOOSLUMS and they tied it to their own ignorance/racism that already existed. So it goes.
One of the things that most depresses me in all of this is how much I feel like it's totally lost on otherwise well-meaning Jews and Israelis how awful Israel looks to the outside world, and how that has nothing to do with anti-semitism. When I was growing up, I saw people lose friends, get blacklisted, called anti-semitic... for daring to criticize Israel. For a long time, the idea that Israel can do no wrong has been accepted as gospel in this country (can't speak for other countries, just not familiar enough to comment). and that has in turn led to missed opportunities on the Israeli side and a lot of resentment elsewhere.
One thing that could be said is, if everyone opposing Israel is all of a sudden an anti-semite (not saying you believe this, but some do) then everyone supporting them is a Zionist. For what it's worth, back around the Iraq War I marched a bunch in SF and there were tons of really suspect anti-semitic signs and shit. It's not cool. But I wonder how much Israel considers the damage they do to the Jewish Brandtm with this kind of shit. I'm not sure that's something in the discussion at all.
GET THAT MONEY, MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!
.... all in the game though, right?
(and no, pointing out the brutality of Israel's neighbors does not make me feel better about Israel's actions.)
(and yes I realize that Israel is among the several Middle Eastern countries who receive large chunks of the 2% of our fed budget devoted to foreign military aid.)
(and no I'm not suggesting anyone in here has any particular animus towards certain national/religious/ethnic group).
(and yes of course you all in this thread have your very own personal, sober reasons for giving a shit about the Arab-Israel conflict above and beyond any other international clusterfuck. In fact, I'm absolutely sure you all do and I'm not really interested in hearing them.)
But you can't blame Israel supporters for, I dunno, taking note of the massive gap in shit-giving.
and that gap can translate to a perception of double-standard in the eyes of a lot of Israel-supporters. I don't go around accusing every Israel-hater of being anti-Semitic. but a historically scape-goated people can be forgiven for sometimes wondering where that perceived double-standard is coming from. unfortunately it's in our DNA to wonder.
we are not "no greater friend to Assad"
although now we're I guess kinda gonna get in bed with him because, ISIS.
but that being said, that is within Syria, a protracted Civil War.
as you know, the Israel-Palestinian conflict goes back a long ways and is far more controversial with people falling all along the spectrum from "kill all Jews" to "kill all Arabs" to "1967 Borders" to "some settlements ok but maybe let's stop now?" and everywhere in between.
I don't think "but they do it/are worse" is strong logic. Gotta look at the shit in its own context.
So you're saying Jewish people are genetically different? You know who else thought that?
Hitler. GODWINED.
Yea, this Board is all we have to go by about eachother...exactly my point.
again, I'd hate to have to resort to comparing Israel to Assad in order to comfort myself/justify anything. i don't do that and I wouldn't.
just letting you know how it looks from where a lot of us stand. don't march down my block screaming about innocent civilians dying if that's not really what you're mad about.
I walked into that one.
I hate to make jokes about particularly sensitive subjects, but the last two set-ups were irresistable.
To the family of the one thousandth victim of IsraelÔÇÖs genocidal slaughter in Gaza by Illan Pappe