some people are into the creation, the spirit of it. some might say the "soul".
other people are into the execution, the technique. this goes way beyond hip-hop, into all kinds of pursuits. It's been like this for generations.
people think brainfreeze is ill, and it is, but what people tend to boil it down to is the selection and the technique. Those are two things that Europeans and American whites have traditionally been very interested in/good at: preservation and refinement. Find the records, mix them with accuracy, try to add a wrinkle the form beyond the groundwork that is already there. Nothing wrong with that.
For those who saw Frank's documentary, El Rego is there talking about how it's necessary for Europeans to come in and help preserve some of this shit because Africans are not good at that. Not sure if I agree, but follow me.
In hip-hop, there's been this constant give-and-take between "creators" and "refiners".... sometimes race/color applies, sometimes it doesn't. But to the extent that it does, the "refiners" seem to get a lot more credit than the "creators". Especially in this day and age. And I'd wager that the people who do that are getting the shit all wrong.
:5000pager:
james said:
In many of the mostly really bad music books I read in college and which would probably make me queasy now, the official party line on this was something like
"In their relation to music, black people have primarily been leaders, innovators, and creators looking to the sweep of the future, where white people have primarily been followers, copyists, and refiners obsessing over the details of the past; this is why a million Frenchmen are hung up on the nuances of a Miles Davis solo from 1967 while Miles Davis himself is hung up on a Scritti Politti record that isn't out yet."
The thing is, everybody is "getting the shit all wrong." Each one of us is probably to some extent either under-crediting the creators or over-romanticizing them, either over-inflating wet-behind-the-ears white dudes into innovators of the first water or inadvertently under-selling seasoned non-white dudes by denying them their full geek, acting like said dudes were never record nerds and never sweated details and never bookishly studied anything, acting like they're just these elemental forces of will that show up and rock park jams.
What pencil-necks and crowd-rockers do is not the same, but nor is it all that different. Does anyone think that Shadow and Cut wouldn't be thrilled to rock a crowd like Kid Capri, or that Kid Capri wouldn't be thrilled to have a Brainfreeze to his name? The fact that there's probably a grip of folks on both sides screaming "They/he already do/does!" kinda illustrates the problem with this kind of duality.
I mean, I don't necessarily disagree with your larger point, Jonny, but I know that you know that this shit is much slipperier than all that.
Right, sure - I mean, yeah. It takes two, like I said, there's always a give and take. And there's an inherent geekiness is any kind of expertise. You know, practitioners of anything will geek out about it. There's a certain obsessiveness that comes along with excellence, and that often manifests itself in collecting or curating things. But it's hard to ignore the overall composition of this community, this message board in particular, and how that affects peoples' values. Within the confines of this little subculture of record dorks, this pattern bears itself out in terms of how we choose what's worthy, what we are surprised/amazed by, and what we deride. I don't think it's very useful to compare Kid Capri to DJ Shadow or Cut Chemist anyway, but these two threads dovetailing seem to indicate that for whatever the "strutter demographic" is, those are two poles, and it's kind of easy (perhaps too easy) to point out the stereotype.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
james said:
HarveyCanal said:
james said:
HarveyCanal said:
james said:
That Kid Capri shit saw a vinyl release? Really?
I mean, I think it's a great set, but I guess I can't imagine not also watching it while listening to it.
No, only those others dudes did such a thing. That was my point. Overkill.
Oh. I see.
Do you really feel like Kid Capri's set doesn't have a strong "look at me" factor, though? Dude spends an awful lot of time crowing about his records and calling out a phantom Biz Markie and saying that he knows he's blowing past his crowd but begging them to stay with him, et cetera. It's still great, though. Showmanship, you know? I guess I just don't see that as pejoratively as you do.
I have to say, for someone who lives in motherfucking Texas, you're showing a surprising aversion to display here.
Maybe I was unclear or you mighta misread me...but I like Kid Capri's showmanship. It's part of rocking a crowd.
No, I got that, but what I'm saying is: What's the difference between his showboating at a park jam and their showboating on a party mix? Like, how is he not doing the same "look at me and all this that I've found/do" that you find so off-putting when they do it?
I mean, if you just for whatever reason like it when he does it and don't when they do it, or find it okay when cool people do it but not okay when whiteys do it, that's fine, that's individual taste. It's just kinda eye-rolling to see that presented not as a difference of taste but as a formal/structural objection: "And another thing--they are far too ostentatious about the records they have acquired, their ability to manipulate them, and their desire to have their audience appreciate them!"
Of course it's a matter of taste. But again, I would explain it as: I prefer the populist styles of Capri to the nerdulist styles of Brainfreeze.
damn, i wish i was listening to that in 91. love the rinked copy of impeach that he's rocking. for real.
thanks kala
i dont really understand why its so great to see djs mixing records. i understand the thrill of being in a crowd thats dancing, buggin out, feeling the music, etc. But i dont really get my kicks watching some dude pull records out on video while i eat pork rinds on the couch. booo
Beat me to it. This is one of my favorite mix tapes of all time and top 3 in the "breaks" category along with ISP's Preschool Breakmix and Buck 4 (R.I.P.'s) RSC Mixes...oh and Capri's Free James Brown is pretty spectacular too.
Pretty sure that if I'd been in that Bronx park on a sunny day I'd have been happy with what was going on in front of me.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Right now I'm just going to say that the rise of turntablism is, for me, one of the things that sucked a lot of the fun out of hip-hop. Some of the wilder extremes of the craft can be entertaining for a little while, and when it's properly integrated into a bigger production, such as the set-up the Beastie Boys had with Mixmaster Mike, it can be really impressive. But having heard techno DJs like Claude Young properly rock a crowd while playing records upside-down and backwards, I've subsequently found lengthy demonstrations of flare-scratch techniques to be a little tedious.
That said, and with the proviso that I'm not complaining about Kid Capri being Kid Capri here (if you know what I mean), if a DJ really is all about the party, then he or she ought to recognise the wisdom in occasionally shutting the fuck up and letting that shit breathe a little. Obviously there are certain break records you can't really do that with, but equally there are plenty that are end-to-end jams so, y'know, why not?
As for the Capri vs. Brainfreeze debate, all I'll add is that, far as I can see, they're different kinds of DJs doing essentially the same thing, and that when people engage in singer-not-the-song posturing they always say more about themselves than the subject under discussion.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
They aren't doing the same thing though. Kid Capri knows how to rock a crowd beyond just the records he's playing. Brainfreeze dudes thankfully don't even try doing that. That's not to say that Brainfreeze sucks, as of course it's a great mix...I just like what Capri is doing better. It's more spur of the moment and fun.
But that's the difference between the two, Brainfreeze isn't supposed to be "spur of the moment and fun". It was a composed piece of mixing with specific parts (as was Capri's 52 Breaks), the point of it is to say "look how creative we can get with these rare records". There is no point to Capri's set in the park other than to rock the park. Neither goal is better. And I think that Shadow and Cut could probably do a pretty decent job of mixing a set on the fly that would move a live crowd, just like Capri could probably do something fly with the stack of 45's from Brainfreeze and a month to put together a composed piece.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
One is better though. Next thing you are going to tell me is that someone is going to notate their scratch routine.
Comments
Right, sure - I mean, yeah. It takes two, like I said, there's always a give and take. And there's an inherent geekiness is any kind of expertise. You know, practitioners of anything will geek out about it. There's a certain obsessiveness that comes along with excellence, and that often manifests itself in collecting or curating things. But it's hard to ignore the overall composition of this community, this message board in particular, and how that affects peoples' values. Within the confines of this little subculture of record dorks, this pattern bears itself out in terms of how we choose what's worthy, what we are surprised/amazed by, and what we deride. I don't think it's very useful to compare Kid Capri to DJ Shadow or Cut Chemist anyway, but these two threads dovetailing seem to indicate that for whatever the "strutter demographic" is, those are two poles, and it's kind of easy (perhaps too easy) to point out the stereotype.
Of course it's a matter of taste. But again, I would explain it as: I prefer the populist styles of Capri to the nerdulist styles of Brainfreeze.
thanks kala
i dont really understand why its so great to see djs mixing records. i understand the thrill of being in a crowd thats dancing, buggin out, feeling the music, etc. But i dont really get my kicks watching some dude pull records out on video while i eat pork rinds on the couch. booo
Beat me to it. This is one of my favorite mix tapes of all time and top 3 in the "breaks" category along with ISP's Preschool Breakmix and Buck 4 (R.I.P.'s) RSC Mixes...oh and Capri's Free James Brown is pretty spectacular too.
That said, and with the proviso that I'm not complaining about Kid Capri being Kid Capri here (if you know what I mean), if a DJ really is all about the party, then he or she ought to recognise the wisdom in occasionally shutting the fuck up and letting that shit breathe a little. Obviously there are certain break records you can't really do that with, but equally there are plenty that are end-to-end jams so, y'know, why not?
As for the Capri vs. Brainfreeze debate, all I'll add is that, far as I can see, they're different kinds of DJs doing essentially the same thing, and that when people engage in singer-not-the-song posturing they always say more about themselves than the subject under discussion.
Rockin' Rob! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Dude is bananas
http://rockinrobs.com/
^^ video #3 @ 10 secs i was like, "oh dude is going to get a drink...cool" 21 secs my mind was blown out the frame...wow! and on time!
cant say i have EVER seen anything like that before..damn