Perfectly illustrates my point. Hat tip to you sir.
From the article:
"WASHINGTON???Following the publication of the image below, in which the most cherished figures from multiple religious faiths were depicted engaging in a lascivious sex act of considerable depravity, no one was murdered, beaten, or had their lives threatened, sources reported Thursday. The image of the Hebrew prophet Moses high-fiving Jesus Christ as both are having their erect penises vigorously masturbated by Ganesha, all while the Hindu deity anally penetrates Buddha with his fist, reportedly went online at 6:45 p.m. EDT, after which not a single bomb threat was made against the organization responsible, nor did the person who created the cartoon go home fearing for his life in any way. Though some members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were reportedly offended by the image, sources confirmed that upon seeing it, they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day"
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
americans have a greater sense of freedom than the rest of the world bro
thats why
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but from all so called 1st world countries I've ever been to, the US feels the most restricted to me. I wasn't able to have titties on my party flyers, got stopped for having a beer on the street etc. I mean it's great if you're feeling all free and enjoying your freedom and so on but to everybody who's been around the world for a while the whole myth of the US being the "freest country of the world" is completely ridiculous. I mean I spent a total of 8 years living there and it's a incredibly big, diverse and beautiful country but it's also the closest thing to a police state that you can find outside of 3rd world dictatorships.
Having lived here and in France, I can definitely say we are far more free for several reasons. In France, I could be stopped at any moment for no cause, asked for my papers and jailed if I didn't have them. It was unnerving to see the kind of power the CRS and police had at first. Plus, the dudes walked around with machine guns which gave the place an armed camp feel. As far as free speech I am not entirely up on the standards in different countries but I'd be hard pressed to see one more open than ours. In England the slander laws are far more restricting. On a social level Europe felt far more constrained in terms of freedom of choice to pick your professional or your educational path. Europe is just a more class based society, you are tracked early in school which determines educational opportunities which determine professional opportunities. It is a marked difference if you ever lived it.
I haven't traveled as much recently. Perhaps the Euro zone has changed things but that was my impression when I was there. That being said our dog-eat-dog economic system produces a lot of misery that I rarely experienced in Europe. Perhaps we could take the best from both.
How long have you lived in France and how many times were you stopped, how many times jailed? Do you seriously think US authorities have less power and abuse it less often? I was stopped, spreadeagled against a wall, had my pockets (illegally) searched etc all for putting up club flyers onto a construction fence on the Lower East Side. I mean I sort of enjoyed the experience, especially with a diplomatic ID in my pocket and knowing they couldn't do shit but you'd never get treated anything like this anyplace in Europe. The Texas state trooper that stopped me for speeding (10 lousy miles over the limit) and behaved like some SS officer... no cop in the whole of Europe would ever behave like such a pig. Not to mention that as far as I know, in Europe cops don't shoot immigrants with 41 bullets for reaching for their wallet or sodomize them with toilet plungers. Or the cops raiding homes in search of "The Tin Drum" DVDs because some insane person deemed it to be child pornography... The US is so super restricted in many ways that directly affect my personal life style and to say that France would be less free is just crazy talk. Being able to buy a cold beer and walk around the park with it on a hot summer day, get naked at pretty much any beach you like... don't get me started on shit as cabaret law and cities outside of NYC closing down clubs at 2am... just ridiculous. I mean it's all subjective and depends on what you do and how you live but this constant "freest country of them all" nonsense is as much of a joke to me as it is to all other people in the international community that I know. It's almost a cliche by now... The US immigration procedures are enough for a lot of people to not even consider going there anymore. To me it's still a great place to be but not the only great place and most certainly not the pace where I feel the freest.
The humans that inhabit America will always just be evolved mammals with long ties to their primal ways. This baggage steers most people to base instincts, self-preservation at the expense of others, bending the rules in favor of self-interest, feeling moral while committing small unethical actions insomuch that no one (person) gets hurt but the system (the collective population) absorbs the cost as long as they (the one's with the power) don't get caught. Insurance and fraud in a nutshell.
Within our laws and thought debated over the centuries we have honed down ever more clearly the moral framework that underpins our society. Three branches of federal government. The lawmakers, the enforcers, and (when needed) the Interpreters of the written law. Congress, the Executive Branch, and the Court System, respectively. Checks and balances between them. Veto power, will to enforce, and the ability to edit and deny the power of the written law. Add the distributed power to enact laws within regions (State's Rights). Term limits in office. Free elections. Majority rule (don't bring up the Electoral College, that's another debate but one deserving of merit) in most cases. Free Press. Bill of Rights. All laid out in a Constitution that (most) importantly has the ability to be amended (and has). Oh, I left out one thing, probably the most important, all this is based on Secularism, the separation of church and state. We will honor you and you are free to practice whatever religion you want but you check your religious coat at the door when the real discourse happens on anything that matters to the collective. Government separated from religion. Works everywhere it is tried.
Other things that work: Empower women and minorities with equal rights and protection under the law. With these things in place good things will happen. But these offices will always be held by humans with primal roots led by desire and an avoidance of pain, twin concerns that over time and withholding oversight tend to lead back to self-interest at the cost of abstract morality. Even the most devout among us, within them, I think that they really know that they only have one go, and why not make the most of it? Even if, in the modern sense, a few suffer some minor inconveniences. After all, you can be considered poor in the USA but still own a cellphone, a television, and a somewhat sturdy roof over your head most nights with food being a byword for ubiquity in our borders. Fat Americans. Now I get it. Previously I didn't because I wasn't nor were my family or friends. But now I get it. Cause I got a little beer belly at 35. Never Had one before. And it's not because of beer sadly. It's because I don't move my ass as much as I used to. Exercise and exorcism two words weirdly linked but they both describe the exclusion of indulgences. Laziness and lack of devotion to a higher authority. I'm better off without one of them. Exercise before exorcism. Logical.
This divergence was made under the effects of alcohol on a Friday night. Please, Frank, I only want you to know that we strive in America for the ideals that have been mentioned and it is a statement of fact that on other forums and in the dot com community that people divulge things you won't get in a country brochure. Things like the most telling things from expatriates from Britain, Australia, Indonesia, and abroad are that hey we have all those problems you talk about and more in some cases less but we sure aren't as open to sharing that with the international community as Americans are. Weirdly that Is Our Strength. Openness to ridicule. In other words, America, has always aired it's dirty laundry to the international community in hopes that the stench fades and the gesture nurtures equivalent responses worthy of learning and debate on college campuses. We aren't the source of truth but are merely the arbiters of reason in the free world in 2012. Time has come.
Please don't make me count the ways through internet media that this is true. Pointedly we here don't hide our problems, we cast them on the world stage and hopefully learn from them. Because it is a human problem not an American or British or Indian or Australian or Peruvian problem. This trait serves us and has served us well in the past and will in the future. When we can go beyond self-congratulatory assertions and nationalism; then we can begin to construct a cohesive narrative of the rights of Humanity.
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held -+
. in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held -+
. in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noone is roping you into a discussion. As a matter of fact, its a silly one, and that's my point exactly. Saying "Islam says this" is already nonsensical enough (Have you talked to Islam? Does Islam come with a bi-lingual manual?). But that is precisely what you did, no-one else instigated that kind of discussion, and I certainly hope no-one ventures there again. For the sake of this board's intellectual integrity.
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held -+
. in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noone is roping you into a discussion. As a matter of fact, its a silly one, and that's my point exactly. Saying "Islam says this" is already nonsensical enough (Have you talked to Islam? Does Islam come with a bi-lingual manual?). But that is precisely what you did, no-one else instigated that kind of discussion, and I certainly hope no-one ventures there again. For the sake of this board's intellectual integrity.
"For sake of this board's integrity", So Funny. Utter nonsense. Obviously you are a Muslim. Respect. You views are always welcomed here and we will honor them in light of proven research and historical anecdote. We love Muslims. We love Christians. We love, gasp, Jews! We love any human being born on the planet Earth, regardless of ethnicity, race, or religion. But we will not stand by when the Koran collides with Darwin. You must at that point consider David Hume. After that we can resume the discussion....
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held -+
. in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noone is roping you into a discussion. As a matter of fact, its a silly one, and that's my point exactly. Saying "Islam says this" is already nonsensical enough (Have you talked to Islam? Does Islam come with a bi-lingual manual?). But that is precisely what you did, no-one else instigated that kind of discussion, and I certainly hope no-one ventures there again. For the sake of this board's intellectual integrity.
"For sake of this board's integrity", So Funny. Utter nonsense. Obviously you are a Muslim. Respect. You views are always welcomed here and we will honor them in light of proven research and historical anecdote. We love Muslims. We love Christians. We love, gasp, Jews! We love any human being born on the planet Earth, regardless of ethnicity, race, or religion. But we will not stand by when the Koran collides with Darwin. You must at that point consider David Hume. After that we can resume the discussion....
Ok, that'd be a coolpostbro if it had anything to do with what I was talking about. My point wasn't to apologize for Islam or to prove it's worth vs Darwinism (lulz). My point was talking about Islam as a monolithic entity that's at point A, from which militants arrive at point B in a linear fashion is hella stupid. And that's what Id like to avoid. I'd also like to avoid name-dropping philosophers (wtf?)
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held -+
. in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noone is roping you into a discussion. As a matter of fact, its a silly one, and that's my point exactly. Saying "Islam says this" is already nonsensical enough (Have you talked to Islam? Does Islam come with a bi-lingual manual?). But that is precisely what you did, no-one else instigated that kind of discussion, and I certainly hope no-one ventures there again. For the sake of this board's intellectual integrity.
"For sake of this board's integrity", So Funny. Utter nonsense. Obviously you are a Muslim. Respect. You views are always welcomed here and we will honor them in light of proven research and historical anecdote. We love Muslims. We love Christians. We love, gasp, Jews! We love any human being born on the planet Earth, regardless of ethnicity, race, or religion. But we will not stand by when the Koran collides with Darwin. You must at that point consider David Hume. After that we can resume the discussion....
Ok, that'd be a coolpostbro if it had anything to do with what I was talking about. My point wasn't to apologize for Islam or to prove it's worth vs Darwinism (lulz). My point was talking about Islam as a monolithic entity that's at point A, from which militants arrive at point B in a linear fashion is hella stupid. And that's what Id like to avoid. I'd also like to avoid name-dropping philosophers (wtf?)
Nonsense! Pure Piffle! I Don't doubt you had a point, hours ago. Are you here? Plz continue your commentary it is both enjoyable and interesting here!
Would there be a shift in theory if it were one dead or how about 12?
Pity you have to start your comment with such a cheap, throwaway stab.
Putting that to one side, I don't disagree with the other factors you mention but I wouldn't attribute as much centrality to them as you perhaps do. For me they are catalysts but not the motor that drives the machine or it's message. It's standard fare for these kinds of threads to play themselves out along Chomsky - Hitchens lines and this one doesn't seem to be any exception. You know the roll-call, the former saying the causes are more nuanced than the placards in the demonstrations - read under the surface and you'll find decades, centuries of simmering anger linked to US foreign policy, economic and social repression, etc etc; the latter saying this is all a smoke screen to apologise for a new bread of religious fundamentalism, the absence of a reformation in the muslim world, hatred of/ incapacity to understand liberalism, freedom of speech etc etc etc. blah blah blah we've all heard it a million times over. I for one am with the Onion and the Hitch in the sky, but we don't have to agree. But I am interested to see if in the next few weeks or months there will be alternative arab voices emanating from Libya now that they have more of a semblance of freedom of speech than during the previous 40 years. This shit started in Benghazi, the same city that was literally delivered from a certain bloodbath last year after 11th hour US-Franco-Brittanic intervention. Cameron and Sarkhozy were greeted like heros on the streets over there. Ok some will say it was all about oil yada yada. But the "other" moderate arab needs to stand up and speak out and break this dumbed-down charicaturing of a varied people that is all pervasive. (not saying that you did it) It's starting in small ways but they need to get more organised
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19607834
"The radicals are sweeping in the elections not only in Libya but in the so-called Arab Spring countries," fumed Essam al-Firjani, a 56-year-old civil servant. "They have armed groups here in Libya and they are trying to impose the law of the jungle on the overwhelming majority of moderate Libyans. We are the true voice of Islam." Mohammed Alwarfili, a 35-year-old Arabic teacher, said he saw the trailer of the controversial movie and was "deeply offended". "But there is not excuse to kill innocent lives. All Libyans really feel for the family of the ambassador of a country that helped liberate us from a dictator like Muammar Gaddafi," Mr Alwarfili said.
But I am interested to see if in the next few weeks or months there will be alternative arab voices emanating from Libya now that they have more of a semblance of freedom of speech than during the previous 40 years.
Libya elected a secularist leaning govt, defeating the Muslim Brotherhood. So I think the "alternative arab" voice is the one of the fundamentalists at this point, at least in Libya.
But I am interested to see if in the next few weeks or months there will be alternative arab voices emanating from Libya now that they have more of a semblance of freedom of speech than during the previous 40 years.
Libya elected a secularist leaning govt, defeating the Muslim Brotherhood. So I think the "alternative arab" voice is the one of the fundamentalists at this point, at least in Libya.
I take your point but I meant more in terms of peaceful activism on the street rather than central government (good thing though that is) Like where I lived there were anti racism marches the day after some far right sponsored act of race violence. I just think that the extremist minority grabs the headlines and it would be good to see the other side mobilize itself in response in order to say that "you don't represent us, you don't rule the streets, though as muslims we too are offended by this film, we are dignifed in our response and rise above both you, the film and its makers"
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
But I am interested to see if in the next few weeks or months there will be alternative arab voices emanating from Libya now that they have more of a semblance of freedom of speech than during the previous 40 years.
If you are interested, look it up, it's not that hard to find. There are as many different viewpoints in the Arab world as in the west - they just don't make as good TV as people burning things down.
tabira said:
But the "other" moderate arab needs to stand up and speak out and break this dumbed-down charicaturing of a varied people that is all pervasive.
It is not their responsibility to break it down. There are 300+ million Arabs and nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world, if people are buying into a stereotype/caricature, it's on the bigots buying into and spreading the falsehood, not the falsehood created.
It is not their responsibility to break it down. There are 300+ million Arabs in the world, if people are buying into a stereotype/caricature, it's on the bigot who is spreading the falsehood, not the falsehood created.
OK but speaking for example of the 6.5 million Libyans and in particular the moderates among them who fought, considering that the blood that was spilt to secure basic political freedoms has barely had time to dry, you could argue that they might feel a responsability at least to themselves to use those hard won rights as voiciferously if not more so the extremists. Not of course in the shallow aim of just breaking down a bunch of stereotypes received abroad, but in order to win their battle at home for the identity of their country. It's at a cross roads. There's a lot hanging in the balance. Perhaps now is not the time to stand on the sidelines. But then perhaps as you say, they are making themselves heard at home, only I'm just not hearing it over here. I will listen out! As for the remaining 296m+ Arabs in the worlds, I broadly agree with you.
Not at all! For me at least it's more stimulating to have an intelligent and, at most times, cool headed adversary ;-) . I'm not married to his position and I'm certainly not a strident anti religious aetheist type like he is (was), but at the current time, I find his perspective on the geo political front the most persuasive.
The White House (Jay Carney) dispelled any rumor that these uprisings and subsequent murders have anything to do with hatred towards the U.S, the current administration or any of our policies....these folks were just pissed about a video.
"We also need to understand that this is a fairly volatile situation and it is in response not to United States policy, and not to, obviously, the administration, or the American people, but it is in response to a video, a film that we have judged to be be reprehensible and disgusting.That in no way justifies any violent reaction to it, but this is not a case of protests directed at the United States writ large or at U.S. policy, this is in response to a video that is offensive to Muslims.
Again, this is not in any way justifying violence, and we have spoken very clearly out against that and condemned it. And the president is making sure in his conversations with leaders around the region that they are committed as hosts to diplomatic facilities to protect both personnel and buildings and other facilities that are part of the U.S. representation in those countries."
In a statement obtained by CNET that's scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, the Justice Department argues that it must be able to prosecute violations of Web sites' often-ignored, always-unintelligible "terms of service" policies.
The law must allow "prosecutions based upon a violation of terms of service or similar contractual agreement with an employer or provider," Richard Downing, the Justice Department's deputy computer crime chief, will tell the U.S. Congress tomorrow.
Or promises rewards in the afterlife for their martyrdom. Incentives to radical members of their group who
kill indeterminately (both enemy and Muslim alike) and with zeal. The Koran plainly states
unambiguously that infidels as well as those whose beliefs are held in other faiths should,
after being conquered, be given two choices: capitulate and convert (and pay a tax) OR die.
Also I'm not aware of any other religion whose punishment for apostasy is death. And
whose contempt of women and repression of thought is upheld even to this day.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Sorry but I just can't let this one go. The rest of his points require no rebuttal for any thinking person that has not been living on a deserted island for the last century. It's important and enlightening to read the sacred text of Islam for this reason: Radical mullahs quote and use the text from the Koran as divine license to wage Jihad and to kill human beings. After all if you are a believer then it follows that you will do as Allah commands. If, however, they did what most Christians and Jews do and pick cafeteria-style what verses they like and believe and discard the rest as metaphor then we wouldn't be dealing with the wreckage of the last decade. Alas, they don't, hence we have terrorism and wars and suicide bombs and hatred and chauvinism. The best hope for mankind's future is the complete secularization of all human politics and government. Religion will never cease I guarantee that, people need something to believe in because we fear death, but we would all be better off the other way 'round.
Anyways here we go:
Statement of Fact:
The prophet Muhammad commands his followers (Allah's proxy) to wage jihad against all non-Muslims. Those people are to be slaughtered unless they convert to Islam or accept complete domination and rule under Muslims for perpetuity. There is no other option.
Relevant Koran Verses:
- Koran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya (TAX!) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
-Koran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."
-Koran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
-Koran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
-Koran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
-Koran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
-Koran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and
(in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
-Koran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
- Koran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
-Koran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
-Koran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
-Koran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"
-Koran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
-Koran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
-Koran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
-Koran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
-Koran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." (Fight for Allah or go to hell)
-Koran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
-Koran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
-Koran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
-Koran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners"
-Koran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Relevant Hadith Verses:
-Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."
-Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"
-Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"
-Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
-Bukhari (60:40) - "...:And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)."
-Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!"
-Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
-Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight
with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
-Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
-Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."
-Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"
-Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"
-Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.
-Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"
-Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - ???Allah said, ???A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.??????
-Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
Too bad the Koran doesn't have a New Testament to tie up all the loose ends and make it somewhat readable to modern ears.
Are you still at it? I think you're missing the point. It is really irrelevant whether I or anyone on this record-collectro board believes in the Quran or not. The point isn't what the texts say. I still do not see a direct link between violence and text. If there was, there would simply be no Christian violence during the Middle Ages, since the New Testament is as pacifist-leaning as you can get. You would also have no Muslim tolerance and religious pluralism of many Muslim empires for centuries. Once again, its about drawing the line from A to B, when nothing in actuality works that way. Also, I highly doubt that you went through your library of hadith literature to find these, so Im gonna assume this is a copy and paste job. Maybe from jihadwatch or religionofpeace. Whatevers. Ill bite, but not that much. And Ill only bite because Islamic/MEastern studies is what I majored and considered an academic career in.
Surah 9, as all other surahs, are revealed in context of Muhammad's life. The original course to arms in Surah 2 was after the expulsion of the muslims from Mecca by the pagans. Numerous followers have been killed and tortured in the 13 years of peaceful preaching. Upon the expulsion of Muslims to Medina (and, earlier, Ethiopia), the Quraysh tribe of Mecca set to destroy the Muslim element, since the Muslim-Medinan (aws and khazraj) alliance created a new, strong political entity, rivaling the monopoly of the Quraysh in that region. Muhammad himself had to use decoys while leaving Mecca to Medina, because a bounty was put on his head. The Quraysh were going to attack and if you believe, God, or if you don't, Muhammad himself, revealed the call to arms to protect the tiny Muslim polity from extinction.
Verses in surah 9 were revealed specifically to those that broke peace treaties with Muslims and were actively fighting them. The same surah, in verse 4, states:
"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
Verse 29 was revealed prior to the campaign against the Byzantines at Tabuk, who were amassing an army to fight the newly-unified Arabian polity.
Verses like these illustrate that context was clearly key, as it was in the Old Testament or the Bhagavad Gita or any other religious scripture:
"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers." 60:8
or
"Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them." 4:90
So anywho, feel free to have the last word here, I'll gladly take an L just to move on past this discussion, at least publicly. If you wish to continue, feel free to PM me.
Are you still at it? I think you're missing the point. It is really irrelevant whether I or anyone on this record-collectro board believes in the Quran or not. The point isn't what the texts say. I still do not see a direct link between violence and text. If there was, there would simply be no Christian violence during the Middle Ages, since the New Testament is as pacifist-leaning as you can get. You would also have no Muslim tolerance and religious pluralism of many Muslim empires for centuries. Once again, its about drawing the line from A to B, when nothing in actuality works that way. Also, I highly doubt that you went through your library of hadith literature to find these, so Im gonna assume this is a copy and paste job. Maybe from jihadwatch or religionofpeace. Whatevers. Ill bite, but not that much. And Ill only bite because Islamic/MEastern studies is what I majored and considered an academic career in.
You are the one that denied the complicity of the Koran and Jihad. I simply showed how the Koran supports and urges it. It is a text written thousands of years ago in the infancy of our species. It bears the indelible marks of that. It Is man-made. You can find equally disturbing things in all religious texts. My point is that Islam and its teachings, and the KEY POINT HERE IS: Right Now (at this time), are motivating people to do harm to others with divine license. Sure Christians did bad things, sure Jews did bad things, sure Atheists did bad things, what I'm talking about is the last 50 years of humanity. One can search through history and always find wrong. You will not find me defending them. You want to believe that your history and sacred texts are right. Others want to believe that theirs is. Is it not obvious to you that they all can't be right at the same time? Trust me when you start to apply reason to these things the words of the texts evaporate into the air and I will admit that there is some longing for divine authority but when you get past that, that you take on the inevitable (your death) and you realize there is not much you can do to change that fact then you start to really examine the beliefs you took for granted as a child. When everyone is on this level then we will experience what has been described as Utopia. Unfortunately it won't happen in our lifetime. These things have to much traction and our deeply entrenched in world culture. Please don't take this as an insult to your religion, I have been dragged by reason away from my upbringing all my life and I still reserve a corner of my brain to the numinous but the more I learn of the history of mankind the more I see that it reflects my own struggle to believe. And surprisingly I find great admiration and warm feelings for the heretics (first scientists) that drug us out of the void and into the light.
You want to believe that your history and sacred texts are right. Others want to believe that theirs is. Is it not obvious to you that they all can't be right at the same time? Trust me when you start to apply reason to these things the words of the texts evaporate into the air and I will admit that there is some longing for divine authority but when you get past that, that you take on the inevitable (your death) and you realize there is not much you can do to change that fact then you start to really examine the beliefs you took for granted as a child. .
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not. If you want to talk about "beliefs you took for granted as a child":
My grandparents are atheists, my mother is agnostic and my father says that deism is the most appealing out of all isms to him. My great-grandfather was one of the main ideologues of Communism in the Baltics. Like I said, PM me if you want to have a further discussion.
Hey how about them fuckin Mardi Gras Bells, am I right?!!
You want to believe that your history and sacred texts are right. Others want to believe that theirs is. Is it not obvious to you that they all can't be right at the same time? Trust me when you start to apply reason to these things the words of the texts evaporate into the air and I will admit that there is some longing for divine authority but when you get past that, that you take on the inevitable (your death) and you realize there is not much you can do to change that fact then you start to really examine the beliefs you took for granted as a child. .
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not. If you want to talk about "beliefs you took for granted as a child":
My grandparents are atheists, my mother is agnostic and my father says that deism is the most appealing out of all isms to him. My great-grandfather was one of the main ideologues of Communism in the Baltics. Like I said, PM me if you want to have a further discussion.
`
Hey how about them fuckin Mardi Gras Bells, am I right?!!
No you are not. Am I to believe that you would major in and or consider a career in Middle Eastern / Islamic Studies to please your agnostic kinfolk if there is not a trace or nostalgic reference towards global kinship??? You never claimed any religion. But you claimed to defend obscure passages from the holy book of Islamists. I knew better to not give you any validity by responding to your posts. Sadly, i let down my guard. Sorry to the SS community. He obviously didn't deserve or require my respect or thought-time. What a waste. Please don't interfere in the future.
It is a text written thousands of years ago in the infancy of our species.
A small (and probably irrelevant) point to the discussion at hand, but wasn't the Koran written in about 600AD? Is that really the infancy of our species (I assumed we'd been around for at least a hundred thousand years or so)? Or was this a subtle was of saying you don't believe in evolution?
You want to believe that your history and sacred texts are right. Others want to believe that theirs is. Is it not obvious to you that they all can't be right at the same time? Trust me when you start to apply reason to these things the words of the texts evaporate into the air and I will admit that there is some longing for divine authority but when you get past that, that you take on the inevitable (your death) and you realize there is not much you can do to change that fact then you start to really examine the beliefs you took for granted as a child. .
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not. If you want to talk about "beliefs you took for granted as a child":
My grandparents are atheists, my mother is agnostic and my father says that deism is the most appealing out of all isms to him. My great-grandfather was one of the main ideologues of Communism in the Baltics. Like I said, PM me if you want to have a further discussion.
`
Hey how about them fuckin Mardi Gras Bells, am I right?!!
No you are not. Am I to believe that you would major in and or consider a career in Middle Eastern / Islamic Studies to please your agnostic kinfolk if there is not a trace or nostalgic reference towards global kinship??? You never claimed any religion. But you claimed to defend obscure passages from the holy book of Islamists. I knew better to not give you any validity by responding to your posts. Sadly, i let down my guard. Sorry to the SS community. He obviously didn't deserve or require my respect or thought-time. What a waste. Please don't interfere in the future.
Yes, you are to believe that. Its a crazy thing this higher education thing. Sometimes people have an interest in the subject of psychology/anthropology/history of religion and then they specialize in a particular tradition as their degree comes to an end. You sound like you live in a small town.
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not.
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not.
StoneHands said:
im Muslim and in my experience,.....
In the spirit of honesty & full disclosure.
I never claimed to be Muslim in this thread discussion, as my personal religious views are irrelevant to my arguments. No dishonesty here. I, of course, am Muslim, albeit far from orthodox, but what does that have to do with anything Ive said?
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not.
StoneHands said:
im Muslim and in my experience,.....
In the spirit of honesty & full disclosure.
Thanks for this, Rockadelic. I'm curious StoneHands, with atheistic parents and a deistic grandparent how does one turn to religion? Very odd that one is brought up with unbelief and then turns to belief, not at all strange the other way around. If you find that your religion doesn't equate with known facts does it not give you pause? These subjects can get very touchy and it can evoke irrational words and behaviors from its adherents so please think carefully before you respond. Beyond politics this subject is the most deeply felt by all humans and I understand your refusal to see past what you have come to believe.
At the least you must admit that Muslims have been causing lots of problems as of late. Religion is the problem not the solution. Deism is attractive because of the scope of the Universe that we can perceive but with all that is out there do you think that a Creator cares about human affairs? And that he would reveal himself to largely illiterate Bedouin sheep herders? And that he would allow any doubt to linger among his creation? I know it sucks to think that there wasn't a plan or purpose for us. But it doesn't make life cheap at all. We make our own purpose. We have the power to alter our future. We give Morality its merit.
Does StoneHands self-given name refer to Stone-Age thinking?
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not.
StoneHands said:
im Muslim and in my experience,.....
In the spirit of honesty & full disclosure.
Thanks for this, Rockadelic. I'm curious StoneHands, with atheistic parents and a deistic grandparent how does one turn to religion. Very odd that one is brought up with unbelief and then turns to belief, not at all strange the other way around. If you find that your religion doesn't equate with known facts does it not give you pause? These subjects can get very touchy and it can evoke irrational words and behaviors from its adherents so please think carefully before you respond. Beyond politics this subject is the most deeply felt by all humans and I understand your refusal to see past what you have come to believe. At the least you must admit that Muslims have been causing lots of problems as of late. Religion is the problem not the solution. Deism is attractive because of the scope of the Universe that we can perceive but with all that is out there do you think that a Creator cares about human affairs? And that he would reveal himself to largely illiterate Bedouin sheep herders? And that he would allow any doubt to linger among his creation? I know it sucks to think that there wasn't a plan or purpose for us. But it doesn't make life cheap at all. We make our own purpose. We have the power to alter our future. We give Morality its merit.
Does StoneHands self-given name refer to Stone-Age thinking?
Yes. It refers to Stone Age thinking. If you're really interested in my personal beliefs, feel free to PM, like I said. Nothing in this whole thread has anything to do with whether Islam, Atheism, Scientology are right belief systems or not. We're talking about whether political violence is a direct effect of the cause, being religious scripture. I'd argue that it doesn't, you'd argue that it does. That's it, theres no problem here. I respect your views. Also, there's no outing going on - Ive participated in more than a few political/religious discussions on here to let people know what my religious affiliation is. However, "You're Muslim, therefore you..." thing is a strawman which leads to assumptions, which you unfortunately made a few times this thread. Have you noticed how I not once asked/inferred that you're agnostic/atheist/deist/humanist? That's because its irrelevant to the argument.
Comments
Perfectly illustrates my point. Hat tip to you sir.
From the article:
"WASHINGTON???Following the publication of the image below, in which the most cherished figures from multiple religious faiths were depicted engaging in a lascivious sex act of considerable depravity, no one was murdered, beaten, or had their lives threatened, sources reported Thursday. The image of the Hebrew prophet Moses high-fiving Jesus Christ as both are having their erect penises vigorously masturbated by Ganesha, all while the Hindu deity anally penetrates Buddha with his fist, reportedly went online at 6:45 p.m. EDT, after which not a single bomb threat was made against the organization responsible, nor did the person who created the cartoon go home fearing for his life in any way. Though some members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were reportedly offended by the image, sources confirmed that upon seeing it, they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day"
1. Rewards for martyrdom - Christianity. Like really really all about that, especially in the early church.
2. The Koran does NOT state unambiguously what you think it does. If anything, its verses on "infidels" are extremely ambiguous. Even if youre referring to the verses in chapter 9, there's literally nowhere that states capitulation or death for non-Muslims as the goal.
Not to nitpick scripture to prove a point, but the ambiguity of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims is as pronounced as it can be in this verse:
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3. You've really never heard of apostasy being punished by death in any other religion? Inquisition?
4. The contempt for women and repression of thought - one has to simply look at like 1000 years of Muslim civilization from the Abbassids to the Ottomans to counter that drivel. Yup, repression of thought was hard at play when those crazy mozlems were translating Plato for us.
Either way, all these little examples are neither here or there. But if you're going to go the route of "This scripture has this passage, so thats why Muslims kill ambassadors", you might as well explain why the Jews haven't been terrorizing non-believers for about 3000 years after having Deuteronomy as reference material. There are much more nuanced forces at play here.
The humans that inhabit America will always just be evolved mammals with long ties to their primal ways. This baggage steers most people to base instincts, self-preservation at the expense of others, bending the rules in favor of self-interest, feeling moral while committing small unethical actions insomuch that no one (person) gets hurt but the system (the collective population) absorbs the cost as long as they (the one's with the power) don't get caught. Insurance and fraud in a nutshell.
Within our laws and thought debated over the centuries we have honed down ever more clearly the moral framework that underpins our society. Three branches of federal government. The lawmakers, the enforcers, and (when needed) the Interpreters of the written law. Congress, the Executive Branch, and the Court System, respectively. Checks and balances between them. Veto power, will to enforce, and the ability to edit and deny the power of the written law. Add the distributed power to enact laws within regions (State's Rights). Term limits in office. Free elections. Majority rule (don't bring up the Electoral College, that's another debate but one deserving of merit) in most cases. Free Press. Bill of Rights. All laid out in a Constitution that (most) importantly has the ability to be amended (and has). Oh, I left out one thing, probably the most important, all this is based on Secularism, the separation of church and state. We will honor you and you are free to practice whatever religion you want but you check your religious coat at the door when the real discourse happens on anything that matters to the collective. Government separated from religion. Works everywhere it is tried.
Other things that work: Empower women and minorities with equal rights and protection under the law. With these things in place good things will happen. But these offices will always be held by humans with primal roots led by desire and an avoidance of pain, twin concerns that over time and withholding oversight tend to lead back to self-interest at the cost of abstract morality. Even the most devout among us, within them, I think that they really know that they only have one go, and why not make the most of it? Even if, in the modern sense, a few suffer some minor inconveniences. After all, you can be considered poor in the USA but still own a cellphone, a television, and a somewhat sturdy roof over your head most nights with food being a byword for ubiquity in our borders. Fat Americans. Now I get it. Previously I didn't because I wasn't nor were my family or friends. But now I get it. Cause I got a little beer belly at 35. Never Had one before. And it's not because of beer sadly. It's because I don't move my ass as much as I used to. Exercise and exorcism two words weirdly linked but they both describe the exclusion of indulgences. Laziness and lack of devotion to a higher authority. I'm better off without one of them. Exercise before exorcism. Logical.
This divergence was made under the effects of alcohol on a Friday night. Please, Frank, I only want you to know that we strive in America for the ideals that have been mentioned and it is a statement of fact that on other forums and in the dot com community that people divulge things you won't get in a country brochure. Things like the most telling things from expatriates from Britain, Australia, Indonesia, and abroad are that hey we have all those problems you talk about and more in some cases less but we sure aren't as open to sharing that with the international community as Americans are. Weirdly that Is Our Strength. Openness to ridicule. In other words, America, has always aired it's dirty laundry to the international community in hopes that the stench fades and the gesture nurtures equivalent responses worthy of learning and debate on college campuses. We aren't the source of truth but are merely the arbiters of reason in the free world in 2012. Time has come.
Please don't make me count the ways through internet media that this is true. Pointedly we here don't hide our problems, we cast them on the world stage and hopefully learn from them. Because it is a human problem not an American or British or Indian or Australian or Peruvian problem. This trait serves us and has served us well in the past and will in the future. When we can go beyond self-congratulatory assertions and nationalism; then we can begin to construct a cohesive narrative of the rights of Humanity.
Utter piffle. But I do like you Avatar. King of the Hill. Won't refute you points. Not at all necessary. At this time only an illiterate could claim immunity for those things. Inquisition. Apostasy in religious text. Does anybody really want this dispute? The Inquisition and the holy text of Islam compared side by side.Tragic and Demoralizing to a modern Human. A book whose claim is the word of God and a practice, please don't proffer. If you are born Muslim and you are defending your birth right and upbringing I understand. If not, then prepare yourself for an Avalanche of fact and reason. No Hate. Do you get it? No Hate to You. No Hate towards Christians. No Hate at All. Just Pure Reason. Somehow you roped me into a discussion that I didn't want or need, something outside of SS but I won't hesitate or flinch. Bring It ON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Noone is roping you into a discussion. As a matter of fact, its a silly one, and that's my point exactly. Saying "Islam says this" is already nonsensical enough (Have you talked to Islam? Does Islam come with a bi-lingual manual?). But that is precisely what you did, no-one else instigated that kind of discussion, and I certainly hope no-one ventures there again. For the sake of this board's intellectual integrity.
"For sake of this board's integrity", So Funny. Utter nonsense. Obviously you are a Muslim. Respect. You views are always welcomed here and we will honor them in light of proven research and historical anecdote. We love Muslims. We love Christians. We love, gasp, Jews! We love any human being born on the planet Earth, regardless of ethnicity, race, or religion. But we will not stand by when the Koran collides with Darwin. You must at that point consider David Hume. After that we can resume the discussion....
Ok, that'd be a coolpostbro if it had anything to do with what I was talking about. My point wasn't to apologize for Islam or to prove it's worth vs Darwinism (lulz). My point was talking about Islam as a monolithic entity that's at point A, from which militants arrive at point B in a linear fashion is hella stupid. And that's what Id like to avoid. I'd also like to avoid name-dropping philosophers (wtf?)
Nonsense! Pure Piffle! I Don't doubt you had a point, hours ago. Are you here? Plz continue your commentary it is both enjoyable and interesting here!
Pity you have to start your comment with such a cheap, throwaway stab.
Putting that to one side, I don't disagree with the other factors you mention but I wouldn't attribute as much centrality to them as you perhaps do. For me they are catalysts but not the motor that drives the machine or it's message. It's standard fare for these kinds of threads to play themselves out along Chomsky - Hitchens lines and this one doesn't seem to be any exception. You know the roll-call, the former saying the causes are more nuanced than the placards in the demonstrations - read under the surface and you'll find decades, centuries of simmering anger linked to US foreign policy, economic and social repression, etc etc; the latter saying this is all a smoke screen to apologise for a new bread of religious fundamentalism, the absence of a reformation in the muslim world, hatred of/ incapacity to understand liberalism, freedom of speech etc etc etc. blah blah blah we've all heard it a million times over. I for one am with the Onion and the Hitch in the sky, but we don't have to agree. But I am interested to see if in the next few weeks or months there will be alternative arab voices emanating from Libya now that they have more of a semblance of freedom of speech than during the previous 40 years. This shit started in Benghazi, the same city that was literally delivered from a certain bloodbath last year after 11th hour US-Franco-Brittanic intervention. Cameron and Sarkhozy were greeted like heros on the streets over there. Ok some will say it was all about oil yada yada. But the "other" moderate arab needs to stand up and speak out and break this dumbed-down charicaturing of a varied people that is all pervasive. (not saying that you did it) It's starting in small ways but they need to get more organised
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19607834
"The radicals are sweeping in the elections not only in Libya but in the so-called Arab Spring countries," fumed Essam al-Firjani, a 56-year-old civil servant. "They have armed groups here in Libya and they are trying to impose the law of the jungle on the overwhelming majority of moderate Libyans. We are the true voice of Islam." Mohammed Alwarfili, a 35-year-old Arabic teacher, said he saw the trailer of the controversial movie and was "deeply offended". "But there is not excuse to kill innocent lives. All Libyans really feel for the family of the ambassador of a country that helped liberate us from a dictator like Muammar Gaddafi," Mr Alwarfili said.
Libya elected a secularist leaning govt, defeating the Muslim Brotherhood. So I think the "alternative arab" voice is the one of the fundamentalists at this point, at least in Libya.
I take your point but I meant more in terms of peaceful activism on the street rather than central government (good thing though that is) Like where I lived there were anti racism marches the day after some far right sponsored act of race violence. I just think that the extremist minority grabs the headlines and it would be good to see the other side mobilize itself in response in order to say that "you don't represent us, you don't rule the streets, though as muslims we too are offended by this film, we are dignifed in our response and rise above both you, the film and its makers"
Sorry for the late pass to anyone-
If you are interested, look it up, it's not that hard to find. There are as many different viewpoints in the Arab world as in the west - they just don't make as good TV as people burning things down.
It is not their responsibility to break it down. There are 300+ million Arabs and nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world, if people are buying into a stereotype/caricature, it's on the bigots buying into and spreading the falsehood, not the falsehood created.
Pity.
OK but speaking for example of the 6.5 million Libyans and in particular the moderates among them who fought, considering that the blood that was spilt to secure basic political freedoms has barely had time to dry, you could argue that they might feel a responsability at least to themselves to use those hard won rights as voiciferously if not more so the extremists. Not of course in the shallow aim of just breaking down a bunch of stereotypes received abroad, but in order to win their battle at home for the identity of their country. It's at a cross roads. There's a lot hanging in the balance. Perhaps now is not the time to stand on the sidelines. But then perhaps as you say, they are making themselves heard at home, only I'm just not hearing it over here. I will listen out! As for the remaining 296m+ Arabs in the worlds, I broadly agree with you.
Edit 16/09. This is good to see
Libyans march to express their sympathy for the US ambassador Chris Stevens and other Americans killed in Benghazi last week. Photograph: Mohammad Hannon/AP
Not at all! For me at least it's more stimulating to have an intelligent and, at most times, cool headed adversary ;-) . I'm not married to his position and I'm certainly not a strident anti religious aetheist type like he is (was), but at the current time, I find his perspective on the geo political front the most persuasive.
"We also need to understand that this is a fairly volatile situation and it is in response not to United States policy, and not to, obviously, the administration, or the American people, but it is in response to a video, a film that we have judged to be be reprehensible and disgusting.That in no way justifies any violent reaction to it, but this is not a case of protests directed at the United States writ large or at U.S. policy, this is in response to a video that is offensive to Muslims.
Again, this is not in any way justifying violence, and we have spoken very clearly out against that and condemned it. And the president is making sure in his conversations with leaders around the region that they are committed as hosts to diplomatic facilities to protect both personnel and buildings and other facilities that are part of the U.S. representation in those countries."
The pressure on Google to remove the video for ToS violation reminds me how the DOJ actually wants to criminalize ToS violations.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57324779-281/doj-lying-on-match.com-needs-to-be-a-crime/
Sorry but I just can't let this one go. The rest of his points require no rebuttal for any thinking person that has not been living on a deserted island for the last century. It's important and enlightening to read the sacred text of Islam for this reason: Radical mullahs quote and use the text from the Koran as divine license to wage Jihad and to kill human beings. After all if you are a believer then it follows that you will do as Allah commands. If, however, they did what most Christians and Jews do and pick cafeteria-style what verses they like and believe and discard the rest as metaphor then we wouldn't be dealing with the wreckage of the last decade. Alas, they don't, hence we have terrorism and wars and suicide bombs and hatred and chauvinism. The best hope for mankind's future is the complete secularization of all human politics and government. Religion will never cease I guarantee that, people need something to believe in because we fear death, but we would all be better off the other way 'round.
Anyways here we go:
Statement of Fact:
The prophet Muhammad commands his followers (Allah's proxy) to wage jihad against all non-Muslims. Those people are to be slaughtered unless they convert to Islam or accept complete domination and rule under Muslims for perpetuity. There is no other option.
Relevant Koran Verses:
- Koran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya (TAX!) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
-Koran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."
-Koran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
-Koran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
-Koran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
-Koran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
-Koran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and
(in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
-Koran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
- Koran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
-Koran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
-Koran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
-Koran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"
-Koran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
-Koran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
-Koran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
-Koran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
-Koran (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." (Fight for Allah or go to hell)
-Koran (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
-Koran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
-Koran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
-Koran (47:3-4) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners"
-Koran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Relevant Hadith Verses:
-Sahih Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay zakat."
-Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"
-Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"
-Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
-Bukhari (60:40) - "...:And fight them till there is no more affliction (i.e. no more worshiping of others along with Allah)."
-Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!"
-Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
-Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight
with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
-Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
-Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."
-Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"
-Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"
-Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.
-Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"
-Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - ???Allah said, ???A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.??????
-Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."
Too bad the Koran doesn't have a New Testament to tie up all the loose ends and make it somewhat readable to modern ears.
Surah 9, as all other surahs, are revealed in context of Muhammad's life. The original course to arms in Surah 2 was after the expulsion of the muslims from Mecca by the pagans. Numerous followers have been killed and tortured in the 13 years of peaceful preaching. Upon the expulsion of Muslims to Medina (and, earlier, Ethiopia), the Quraysh tribe of Mecca set to destroy the Muslim element, since the Muslim-Medinan (aws and khazraj) alliance created a new, strong political entity, rivaling the monopoly of the Quraysh in that region. Muhammad himself had to use decoys while leaving Mecca to Medina, because a bounty was put on his head. The Quraysh were going to attack and if you believe, God, or if you don't, Muhammad himself, revealed the call to arms to protect the tiny Muslim polity from extinction.
Verses in surah 9 were revealed specifically to those that broke peace treaties with Muslims and were actively fighting them. The same surah, in verse 4, states:
"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
Verse 29 was revealed prior to the campaign against the Byzantines at Tabuk, who were amassing an army to fight the newly-unified Arabian polity.
Verses like these illustrate that context was clearly key, as it was in the Old Testament or the Bhagavad Gita or any other religious scripture:
"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers." 60:8
or
"Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them." 4:90
So anywho, feel free to have the last word here, I'll gladly take an L just to move on past this discussion, at least publicly. If you wish to continue, feel free to PM me.
You are the one that denied the complicity of the Koran and Jihad. I simply showed how the Koran supports and urges it. It is a text written thousands of years ago in the infancy of our species. It bears the indelible marks of that. It Is man-made. You can find equally disturbing things in all religious texts. My point is that Islam and its teachings, and the KEY POINT HERE IS: Right Now (at this time), are motivating people to do harm to others with divine license. Sure Christians did bad things, sure Jews did bad things, sure Atheists did bad things, what I'm talking about is the last 50 years of humanity. One can search through history and always find wrong. You will not find me defending them. You want to believe that your history and sacred texts are right. Others want to believe that theirs is. Is it not obvious to you that they all can't be right at the same time? Trust me when you start to apply reason to these things the words of the texts evaporate into the air and I will admit that there is some longing for divine authority but when you get past that, that you take on the inevitable (your death) and you realize there is not much you can do to change that fact then you start to really examine the beliefs you took for granted as a child. When everyone is on this level then we will experience what has been described as Utopia. Unfortunately it won't happen in our lifetime. These things have to much traction and our deeply entrenched in world culture. Please don't take this as an insult to your religion, I have been dragged by reason away from my upbringing all my life and I still reserve a corner of my brain to the numinous but the more I learn of the history of mankind the more I see that it reflects my own struggle to believe. And surprisingly I find great admiration and warm feelings for the heretics (first scientists) that drug us out of the void and into the light.
Best not to assume things bro. The holier than thou (see what i did there) attitude is a little off-putting. I never claimed to be anything, Muslim or not. If you want to talk about "beliefs you took for granted as a child":
My grandparents are atheists, my mother is agnostic and my father says that deism is the most appealing out of all isms to him. My great-grandfather was one of the main ideologues of Communism in the Baltics. Like I said, PM me if you want to have a further discussion.
Hey how about them fuckin Mardi Gras Bells, am I right?!!
God loves Craig Moerer?
::yay::
No you are not. Am I to believe that you would major in and or consider a career in Middle Eastern / Islamic Studies to please your agnostic kinfolk if there is not a trace or nostalgic reference towards global kinship??? You never claimed any religion. But you claimed to defend obscure passages from the holy book of Islamists. I knew better to not give you any validity by responding to your posts. Sadly, i let down my guard. Sorry to the SS community. He obviously didn't deserve or require my respect or thought-time. What a waste. Please don't interfere in the future.
A small (and probably irrelevant) point to the discussion at hand, but wasn't the Koran written in about 600AD? Is that really the infancy of our species (I assumed we'd been around for at least a hundred thousand years or so)? Or was this a subtle was of saying you don't believe in evolution?
Yes, you are to believe that. Its a crazy thing this higher education thing. Sometimes people have an interest in the subject of psychology/anthropology/history of religion and then they specialize in a particular tradition as their degree comes to an end. You sound like you live in a small town.
In the spirit of honesty & full disclosure.
I never claimed to be Muslim in this thread discussion, as my personal religious views are irrelevant to my arguments. No dishonesty here. I, of course, am Muslim, albeit far from orthodox, but what does that have to do with anything Ive said?
Thanks for this, Rockadelic. I'm curious StoneHands, with atheistic parents and a deistic grandparent how does one turn to religion? Very odd that one is brought up with unbelief and then turns to belief, not at all strange the other way around. If you find that your religion doesn't equate with known facts does it not give you pause? These subjects can get very touchy and it can evoke irrational words and behaviors from its adherents so please think carefully before you respond. Beyond politics this subject is the most deeply felt by all humans and I understand your refusal to see past what you have come to believe.
At the least you must admit that Muslims have been causing lots of problems as of late. Religion is the problem not the solution. Deism is attractive because of the scope of the Universe that we can perceive but with all that is out there do you think that a Creator cares about human affairs? And that he would reveal himself to largely illiterate Bedouin sheep herders? And that he would allow any doubt to linger among his creation? I know it sucks to think that there wasn't a plan or purpose for us. But it doesn't make life cheap at all. We make our own purpose. We have the power to alter our future. We give Morality its merit.
Does StoneHands self-given name refer to Stone-Age thinking?
And I quote...
Well you arse crawling bastards you can suck my arse
Religion, Jesus Christ, it's all a fucking farce
So there's that.
Yes. It refers to Stone Age thinking. If you're really interested in my personal beliefs, feel free to PM, like I said. Nothing in this whole thread has anything to do with whether Islam, Atheism, Scientology are right belief systems or not. We're talking about whether political violence is a direct effect of the cause, being religious scripture. I'd argue that it doesn't, you'd argue that it does. That's it, theres no problem here. I respect your views. Also, there's no outing going on - Ive participated in more than a few political/religious discussions on here to let people know what my religious affiliation is. However, "You're Muslim, therefore you..." thing is a strawman which leads to assumptions, which you unfortunately made a few times this thread. Have you noticed how I not once asked/inferred that you're agnostic/atheist/deist/humanist? That's because its irrelevant to the argument.
Well you arse crawling bastard you can suck my arse
Religion, Jesus Christ, it's all a fucking farce
So there's that.