Yes. Jesus. This is going nowhere and getting too cerebral with every post. Mine included. I guess it's like my dad talking about the good old days, and how music isn't what it used to be. As an aging hip hop fan since 87, I'm repeating that same pattern. Things need to evolve. But sometimes where they end up may be missing what was good about them in the first place.
Yes. Jesus. This is going nowhere and getting too cerebral with every post. Mine included. I guess it's like my dad talking about the good old days, and how music isn't what it used to be. As an aging hip hop fan since 87, I'm repeating that same pattern. Things need to evolve. But sometimes where they end up may be missing what was good about them in the first place.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
First off, dude, learn to use the quote function. It makes knowing who or what you're responding to that bit easier.
Anto99 said:
But, on one hand, you say I can't define what the "golden era" is and then you offer your own take on how it is; ie crossover between golden era and boom bap" By mentioning the existence of this era, you're agreeing that it does in fact have a definition and a clear time period. That's stating a fact. Not leaving that era open to interpretation.
It's not "a fact", it's another guy's opinion. It may be widely agreed amongst some hip-hop fans that a particular period between [x] and [y] represents a golden age. Some kid who thinks Pac is old-school may think differently. I can't understand why people want to take a "Moses and the tablets of stone" attitude to hip-hop anyway. Maybe it's time to stop talking about "the golden age" and start calling it "the old testament".
Another era that many rock heads consider classic in terms of musicianship, creativity and lack of big label influence.
Seriously? Go through your records and count the number of 70s classic rock joints that weren't either released or distributed by big labels. As someone who was a teenager in the 70s, please accept my assurance that there was just as much shit released then as there is now.
As a measure of shit then and now, grab a Billboard mag, check the charts in 1970 through 79. Then look at today's issue. Fact is, corporate influence on who gets signed is more perverse today than it ever has been. And music is, as a result, more of a commodity then it's ever been. The artists are there, but the interest in signing them isn't if they dont represent a stellar marketing opportunity. This happened in the 70s, but not nearly as much.
And in terms of golden era, I'll continue to speak about elements. Just as the guitar went from acoustic to electric, the base of the idea/ sound remained. With hip hop, I see the evolution in much the same way. From cutting up breaks, to 808s, and samples, to replaying disco tracks with a band, to Paul C getting even more creative with samples to Pete Rock stretching the shit out of SP to Primo chopping loops to today where cats ate sampling shit from everywhere. There's a common thread. Although technique and output changes, the underlying ingredients are still there.
So, my car has been broken down and been at my girls house for a few months. While I was in the hospital my girlfriend's brilliant roommate Betty decided to do this to my car in a drunken stupor. Thats shaving cream/rock salt/cigarette snipes and ash on the paint. In the interior she poured rock salt all in the console and shifter and threw a bag of trash in there also. I have no idea why she did this and neither does my girl. Shes always been nice to me and vice versa. Can I get her arrested for property damage? or maybe vandalism? I really don't even care but I feel like I should teach her a lesson.
So, my car has been broken down and been at my girls house for a few months. While I was in the hospital my girlfriend's brilliant roommate Betty decided to do this to my car in a drunken stupor. Thats shaving cream/rock salt/cigarette snipes and ash on the paint. In the interior she poured rock salt all in the console and shifter and threw a bag of trash in there also. I have no idea why she did this and neither does my girl. Shes always been nice to me and vice versa. Can I get her arrested for property damage? or maybe vandalism? I really don't even care but I feel like I should teach her a lesson.
I'm two years older, so I grew up in the same time frame as you.
So I was lucky enough to grow up during what I consider the prime era for hip hop.
Does that mean the time before the 90s was a less-prime era ?
Look, I had the luck to have a older brother who recorded British Army radio stations in Germany, so therfore I was exposed to soul, disco, funk and anything else which was groovin. Thats why I heard "Rappers Delight", "Rap-O-Clap-O", "The Breaks" and so on at an very early age. The B-Boy craze around 83 was when I started to do my own thing.
I listened to "Planet Rock", "IOU", "I Feel for you" and so on. I also listened to "The Message", "Sucker MCs", "Fat Boys are Back", "Go see the Doctor". I watched Wildstyle, Stylewars and Beatstreet. I bought the first Run DMC album just of the strength of "It's like That".
Schooly D, Shy D and the Beasties followed. Than MC Shan, Big Daddy Kane, BDP and Rakim killed it and it was 1987.
I know that's narrow minded for sure, and I'm speaking primarily about production, but the way I look at it, once you take the dusty samples, the MPCS, SP12s, ASR 10s, cuts, digging etc out of the picture, you're left with a very hollow shell. An approximation of what hip hop is.
So this less-prime-era is a very hollow shell and approximation of what HipHop is ?
What was it before it became HipHop ?
The different styles of HipHop are extremely complex. Thats the beauty of Rap music, it can be everything.
When I listen to a track where someone is rapping on a alternative Rock tune, or over an electronic tune, there is always someone shouting: Thats not HipHop. Thats not true.
Why ??
Because its no 90-95 BPM Boom Bap, no Golden Era, no 8/8 hihat pattern, no Soul/Jazz/Funk sample beat ?
You talking about your personal taste, but you also judge a whole culture filtered through your taste.
Thats why people are saying you are erasing the 2 decades before your golden age decade, and the decade that followed the 90s.
3 decades of an approximation of what hip hop used to be in 1 decade ?
You see the inballance in that ? You understand that your qoutes come across respectless even if its not what you had intended first?
I believe you that you didnt wanted to diss anything or anybody, but it still comes across respectless because it is.
But here's the one critique I've received by more than one person: "You're stuck. Things have to progress. That era did their thing. Now it's time to move on" This is usually in response to both my allegiance to the boom bap, sample heavy 90s standards
Now this is your main problem which is bothering you. Its a personal thing which era you prefer. Nobody has the right to judge on your decision, but they do it in the same way you are doing it.
So it all comes down to this one question for you. Are you exactly like a lot of people who only like the music of their prime youth, or are you a person who is interested in development and can adjust to different styles and sounds of HipHop ?
Like you probably did as a kid from 1980-1990.
Why does it bother you so much ? If you like your stuff in that formula, why give a fusk about the comments that you are "stuck" ?
I mean its the truth. You are stuck.
The only problem you have is because you think "being stuck" is negative. Maybe back in the days you made fun of people that where "stuck" in a style and now you realise you've become the same as them.
But what is the problem ?
Dont listen to Wacka Flacka and enjoy listening to Damu. Enjoy the blogs where you are getting all those 90s singles which had bad distribution. Enjoy those Labels like Diggers With Grattitude or Dopefolks who are putting out classic stuff on vinyl. Watch Werner von Wallenrods brilliant blog and youtube Videos. Visit Egotripland.com and have fun. Realise there a thousands of people like you.
And young people too. I was checking for the funk and soul stuff from the 60s & 70s when I was young in the 90s. Now kids are checking for 90s rap. They even rap on it and get sued for $10 Million.
Everythings allright, you just have to stop to judge the other developments of HipHop as a "hollow shell".
Accept that HipHop is a chameleon but you like just one color.
Make peace with being stuck, than you will not become a jaded guy.
I definitely see your point. And it's a very good one. I think what I was trying to say fell off the rails a bit. I've tried to spin my point in a million different ways. None of them seem to resonate.
To me, it's kinda like how funk, as a whole, started losing its stride a bit in the late 70's early 80s. Again, I know there are lot of classics found in boogie, disco and P-funk, jazz funk sides) but as a whole, it's widely accepted that there was a definite dip in the quality of what was being released overall. Now with the whole Daptone Soul fire new funk thing, it's like soul/funk music is taking stock of what it was and what it should be in the face of R-Kelly etc.
I guess I'm just questioning evolution of a genre just for the sake of it. I'm not one to define hip hop. Or any genre for that matter. But I can see it what I'm saying happening right now. The keyboard heavy crap is still prevalent, but cats like Kanye are bringing samples and 90s era influenced production back. Along with others. Smaller labels are supporting soulful hip hop. but what always gets me, is remembering the days when that stuff got airplay. Hearing Say No Go on FM radio. Or even Craig Mack back in 95.
I think that Goyte track that was so popular is a good example of people finally having an pop-friendly option that isn't derived by corporate bull shit. Like it or not, when played back-to-back with "Moves Like Jagger", it was no doubt a huge juxtaposition between the saturated crap that plagues the airwaves and actual musicianship. it is, arguably a throwback to a less diluted form of song writing and production.
And much like this, I find with the new generation of hip hop heads, the popularity of MPCs etc is actually their attempt to get back to what it was about before things fell off.
Anyways, that is, I promise, my last attempt to make my point. Agree or disagree. There really isn't an answer. This is and was my attempt at having a discussion. Nothing more. And again. I didn't define the exact dates that I consider the "Golden Era". That depends on the person. I'm simply commenting on certain elements that are consistent from hip hop's inception to now. And how those things influence what I like.
I definitely see your point. And it's a very good one. I think what I was trying to say fell off the rails a bit. I've tried to spin my point in a million different ways. None of them seem to resonate.
To me, it's kinda like how funk, as a whole, started losing its stride a bit in the late 70's early 80s. Again, I know there are lot of classics found in boogie, disco and P-funk, jazz funk sides) but as a whole, it's widely accepted that there was a definite dip in the quality of what was being released overall. Now with the whole Daptone Soul fire new funk thing, it's like soul/funk music is taking stock of what it was and what it should be in the face of R-Kelly etc.
I guess I'm just questioning evolution of a genre just for the sake of it. I'm not one to define hip hop. Or any genre for that matter. But I can see it what I'm saying happening right now. The keyboard heavy crap is still prevalent, but cats like Kanye are bringing samples and 90s era influenced production back. Along with others. Smaller labels are supporting soulful hip hop. but what always gets me, is remembering the days when that stuff got airplay. Hearing Say No Go on FM radio. Or even Craig Mack back in 95.
I think that Goyte track that was so popular is a good example of people finally having an pop-friendly option. Like it or not, when played back-to-back with "Moves Like Jagger", it was no doubt a huge juxtaposition between the saturated pop-bullshit that plagues the airwaves and actual musicianship. it is, arguably a throwback to a less diluted form of song writing and production.
And much like this, I find with the new generation of hip hop heads, the popularity of MPCs etc is actually their attempt to get back to what it was about before things fell off.
Anyways, that is, I promise, my last attempt to make my point. Agree or disagree. There really isn't an answer. This is and was my attempt at having a discussion. Nothing more.
Take it easy.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Rick Ross is sitting in a hot tub right now figuring out how he can persuade Large Professor to remix God Forgives.
LMHO - I just saw the digging trip thread, you ARE from Toronto - yeesh!
I have been on this Board too long...or wait - have I been in Toronto too long?
I'm not opening that gigantic can of worms. No matter what I list, you'll find fault and this whole thing will open up again. Kinda getting a bit old isn't it?
Let's all go on our nerdy ways and call it a day. I'll listen to a little Buhloone Mindsate and you can chill to The Game. No probs here.
Comments
So now Golden Era is what YOU like which could be from '03 to '10 beacuse its what you consider essential or is it The Golden Era?
It's not "a fact", it's another guy's opinion. It may be widely agreed amongst some hip-hop fans that a particular period between [x] and [y] represents a golden age. Some kid who thinks Pac is old-school may think differently. I can't understand why people want to take a "Moses and the tablets of stone" attitude to hip-hop anyway. Maybe it's time to stop talking about "the golden age" and start calling it "the old testament".
Seriously? Go through your records and count the number of 70s classic rock joints that weren't either released or distributed by big labels. As someone who was a teenager in the 70s, please accept my assurance that there was just as much shit released then as there is now.
And in terms of golden era, I'll continue to speak about elements. Just as the guitar went from acoustic to electric, the base of the idea/ sound remained. With hip hop, I see the evolution in much the same way. From cutting up breaks, to 808s, and samples, to replaying disco tracks with a band, to Paul C getting even more creative with samples to Pete Rock stretching the shit out of SP to Primo chopping loops to today where cats ate sampling shit from everywhere. There's a common thread. Although technique and output changes, the underlying ingredients are still there.
Hahahahaha
I'm two years older, so I grew up in the same time frame as you.
Does that mean the time before the 90s was a less-prime era ?
Look, I had the luck to have a older brother who recorded British Army radio stations in Germany, so therfore I was exposed to soul, disco, funk and anything else which was groovin. Thats why I heard "Rappers Delight", "Rap-O-Clap-O", "The Breaks" and so on at an very early age. The B-Boy craze around 83 was when I started to do my own thing.
I listened to "Planet Rock", "IOU", "I Feel for you" and so on. I also listened to "The Message", "Sucker MCs", "Fat Boys are Back", "Go see the Doctor". I watched Wildstyle, Stylewars and Beatstreet. I bought the first Run DMC album just of the strength of "It's like That".
Schooly D, Shy D and the Beasties followed. Than MC Shan, Big Daddy Kane, BDP and Rakim killed it and it was 1987.
So this less-prime-era is a very hollow shell and approximation of what HipHop is ?
What was it before it became HipHop ?
The different styles of HipHop are extremely complex. Thats the beauty of Rap music, it can be everything.
When I listen to a track where someone is rapping on a alternative Rock tune, or over an electronic tune, there is always someone shouting: Thats not HipHop. Thats not true.
Why ??
Because its no 90-95 BPM Boom Bap, no Golden Era, no 8/8 hihat pattern, no Soul/Jazz/Funk sample beat ?
You talking about your personal taste, but you also judge a whole culture filtered through your taste.
Thats why people are saying you are erasing the 2 decades before your golden age decade, and the decade that followed the 90s.
3 decades of an approximation of what hip hop used to be in 1 decade ?
You see the inballance in that ? You understand that your qoutes come across respectless even if its not what you had intended first?
I believe you that you didnt wanted to diss anything or anybody, but it still comes across respectless because it is.
Now this is your main problem which is bothering you. Its a personal thing which era you prefer. Nobody has the right to judge on your decision, but they do it in the same way you are doing it.
So it all comes down to this one question for you. Are you exactly like a lot of people who only like the music of their prime youth, or are you a person who is interested in development and can adjust to different styles and sounds of HipHop ?
Like you probably did as a kid from 1980-1990.
Why does it bother you so much ? If you like your stuff in that formula, why give a fusk about the comments that you are "stuck" ?
I mean its the truth. You are stuck.
The only problem you have is because you think "being stuck" is negative. Maybe back in the days you made fun of people that where "stuck" in a style and now you realise you've become the same as them.
But what is the problem ?
Dont listen to Wacka Flacka and enjoy listening to Damu. Enjoy the blogs where you are getting all those 90s singles which had bad distribution. Enjoy those Labels like Diggers With Grattitude or Dopefolks who are putting out classic stuff on vinyl. Watch Werner von Wallenrods brilliant blog and youtube Videos. Visit Egotripland.com and have fun. Realise there a thousands of people like you.
And young people too. I was checking for the funk and soul stuff from the 60s & 70s when I was young in the 90s. Now kids are checking for 90s rap. They even rap on it and get sued for $10 Million.
Everythings allright, you just have to stop to judge the other developments of HipHop as a "hollow shell".
Accept that HipHop is a chameleon but you like just one color.
Make peace with being stuck, than you will not become a jaded guy.
Peace
Hawkeye
So good. I'm taking this with me and applying it in all possible situations at work tomorrow.
Replacing hip hop with something appropriate, natch.
To me, it's kinda like how funk, as a whole, started losing its stride a bit in the late 70's early 80s. Again, I know there are lot of classics found in boogie, disco and P-funk, jazz funk sides) but as a whole, it's widely accepted that there was a definite dip in the quality of what was being released overall. Now with the whole Daptone Soul fire new funk thing, it's like soul/funk music is taking stock of what it was and what it should be in the face of R-Kelly etc.
I guess I'm just questioning evolution of a genre just for the sake of it. I'm not one to define hip hop. Or any genre for that matter. But I can see it what I'm saying happening right now. The keyboard heavy crap is still prevalent, but cats like Kanye are bringing samples and 90s era influenced production back. Along with others. Smaller labels are supporting soulful hip hop. but what always gets me, is remembering the days when that stuff got airplay. Hearing Say No Go on FM radio. Or even Craig Mack back in 95.
I think that Goyte track that was so popular is a good example of people finally having an pop-friendly option that isn't derived by corporate bull shit. Like it or not, when played back-to-back with "Moves Like Jagger", it was no doubt a huge juxtaposition between the saturated crap that plagues the airwaves and actual musicianship. it is, arguably a throwback to a less diluted form of song writing and production.
And much like this, I find with the new generation of hip hop heads, the popularity of MPCs etc is actually their attempt to get back to what it was about before things fell off.
Anyways, that is, I promise, my last attempt to make my point. Agree or disagree. There really isn't an answer. This is and was my attempt at having a discussion. Nothing more. And again. I didn't define the exact dates that I consider the "Golden Era". That depends on the person. I'm simply commenting on certain elements that are consistent from hip hop's inception to now. And how those things influence what I like.
Take it easy.
And L'il John is stopping by with keyboard driven versions of Rapper's Delight, It's The Joint, The Bridge is Over and the Low End Theory.
And L'il John is stopping by with keyboard driven versions of Rapper's Delight, It's The Joint, The Bridge is Over and the Low End Theory.
I have been on this Board too long...or wait - have I been in Toronto too long?
When you're done, revisit this post.
Sincerely, Mr Metro
What album/albums for u ushered in "The Golden Era"?
Let's all go on our nerdy ways and call it a day. I'll listen to a little Buhloone Mindsate and you can chill to The Game. No probs here.