Bush America and Chuch State (an Agnostic POV)

Guzzo

Let me preface this by saying I do not hate religion and have the utmost respect for those that have serious spiritual beliefs.George Bush called for a national day of Prayer to fall on today The announcement was a week ago and when I first heard it my reaction was to get upset. It made me feel that, due to my beleifs, I wasn't being included in this idea of mourning and respect for the victims of Katrina; Prayer in essence is towards a higher being, without any higher being in my life I am now seperated from what our elected American leader has asked and that leaves me feeling very un-AmericanTo push me further from the idea of being a citizen of this country Bush requested that we put money in churches to help with the rebuilding of New Orleans. Once again I got no problem with the building of churches but that is not what Bush meant, he meant that religious organizations should play a strong role in the reconstruction of the city.These things may be things that don't matter as much to others but they matter a whole lot to me. America is supposed to be a place where religion doesn't matter, shit, it pretty much states that in our 1st amendmant, but this whole idea system of bringing god into government makes me uncomfortable and keeps me feeling seperated from the country that I've called home since my birth.Has anybody else felt this or thought about it? Or am I just on one of my crazy "guzzo" tangents?

peacefulrotation

I think local Churches have played really big role in helping people down there, and this was BEFORE any mention of government help. In fact Fema was confiscating some of their supplies and hindering their progress on certain fronts. Helping community churches is a good thing IMO, & for the record I'm a non religious person. Most small churches don't have all the bureaucracy standing in the way of making things happen.

Guzzo

I think local Churches have played really big role in helping people down there, and this was BEFORE any mention of government help.

and I am all for that. I beleive Churches should be helping, but on thier own account, not on the request/ demand of the Leader of the US. And to further push what I'm saying, there are other religious organizations within that city, none of which were mentioned by religion, charity, or otherwise. I really think this ostricizes other communities and perhaps makes them feel like I do; not part of this new America. Is there any reason why Mosques were not asked to aid? Why weren't Synagogues asked as well? it goes on and on and on. To me this shapes American policy in a direction I don't want it to take



the seperation of church & state is pretty thin right now

Bambouche

George Bush called for a national day of Prayer to fall on today The announcement was a week ago and when I first heard it my reaction was to get upset.

Guzzo

what did I do wrong now?

beleive it or not I used to be an english tutor

Jonny_Paycheck

Adam bear in mind this is Louisiana.

DJ_Enki

the seperation of church & state is pretty thin right now

Disturbingly thin. And I find it funny and alarming that the same people who are up in arms about the influence of Islam on governments in the Middle East push harder every day for a more theocratic America. Evangelicals are scary, yo.

Also, I think this whole "persecuted Christians" complex is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life. Yeah, because the gays, Muslims, Jews, and pagans have ruled America with an iron fist for far too long.

BeardedD

Yeah, what little I caught of that speech seemed to my limited knowledge to set a record for religious talk from a president in modern times. It wouldn't be half as offensive if you could actually believe that Bush subscribes to Christian principles (as opposed to the more Satanist steez he goes by).

Sun_Fortune

Let me preface this by saying I do not hate religion and have the utmost respect for those that have serious spiritual beliefs.

George Bush called for a national day of Prayer to fall on today The announcement was a week ago and when I first heard it my reaction was to get upset. It made me feel that, due to my beleifs, I wasn't being included in this idea of mourning and respect for the victims of Katrina; Prayer in essence is towards a higher being, without any higher being in my life I am now seperated from what our elected American leader has asked and that leaves me feeling very un-American

To push me further from the idea of being a citizen of this country Bush requested that we put money in churches to help with the rebuilding of New Orleans. Once again I got no problem with the building of churches but that is not what Bush meant, he meant that religious organizations should play a strong role in the reconstruction of the city.

These things may be things that don't matter as much to others but they matter a whole lot to me. America is supposed to be a place where religion doesn't matter, shit, it pretty much states that in our 1st amendmant, but this whole idea system of bringing god into government makes me uncomfortable and keeps me feeling seperated from the country that I've called home since my birth.

Has anybody else felt this or thought about it? Or am I just on one of my crazy "guzzo" tangents?

Hey, I dont disagree with you and am not tying to start shit, but you defined your terms wrong. If you are an agnostic then by definition you believe in some form of higher power but believe that is unknowable at this time. If you say there is no higher power in your life, then you are an atheist. But as the overwhelming majority of the country is religious, I think those that abstain from religion should not get upset for not being included or try to limit others from practicing. I do believe in seperation but I dont think it is wise to outlaw religion from anything that has to do with the government. That is why the christrian right is pissed off in the first place.

grandpa_shig

um, this is basically the platform that he ran on. one of his first things to do in office was to sign some sort of bill or some shit that took money from other federally funded community based organizations and put it into faith based organizations. the ripple effect shut down countless CBOs and service providers or had them partnering with churches just to remain afloat. pbs ran one of them frontlines or some shit on it like 3 years ago where they figured out that something ridiculous like 90% was being funneled into christian and jewish org's with way more than half of that going to the christian orgs. the rest of these faith based orgs were having to divy up the remaining 10%, if that.

i am not at all offended. this is a christian nation. you must learn to accept that. all that other shit is just ink on paper. any way you look at it. the fact that other faiths even got a small cut is more than they expected.

Young_Phonics

Also, I think this whole "persecuted Christians" complex is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen in my life. Yeah, because the gays, Muslims, Jews, and pagans have ruled America with an iron fist for far too long.

that shit drives me up the wall. Almost as bad when white people complain about racism.

you catch the daily show last night? They had some dude going on a pilgrimage to South Carolina so he (and other dumbasses) can build an All-Christian state. He thinks this is neccesarry because Chrisitianity is on the decline. The founder of said movement lives in here in Cali and will "Probally move to South Carolina in a year or two".

It seems like Chrisitianity/Bible Thumping hasn't had this much power in ages but yet they're still crying about "we are getting persecuted". WTF!?!??!?!

Guzzo

Hey, I dont disagree with you and am not tying to start shit, but you defined your terms wrong. If you are an agnostic then by definition you believe in some form of higher power but believe that is unknowable at this time. If you say there is no higher power in your life, then you are an atheist. But as the overwhelming majority of the country is religious, I think those that abstain from religion should not get upset for not being included or try to limit others from practicing. I do believe in seperation but I dont think it is wise to outlaw religion from anything that has to do with the government. That is why the christrian right is pissed off in the first place.

yeah I understand the difference between agnostic, and athiest however I am not ready to say that I don't beleive there is no god, so I still consider myself agnostic.

As for most of the country being religious, thats perfectly fine. But that should be reflected in thier own private lives and not in our representitive government. We are not a Christian nation (not yet anyways) and religion should not play a part in the way our government operates. The Christian right are extremists, believe me when I say they border the same ideals of the Islamic fundamentalists they say are wrong. To push one religious ideal amongst your citizens to is to limit the idea of religious freedom with everyone else.

It gets scary to me and, like I said earlier, makes me feel like less of a US Citizen

BeardedD

Edit -- won't let me post my cute picture of Bush with a supersweaty back getting onto the plane after his little speech.



There's something pretty defeatist about calling the US a "Christian country." Although at the present moment the statement is pretty much true, historically and constitutionally this has not always been the case and it's counter-productive to go saying it is.

davesrecords

you catch the daily show last night? They had some dude going on a pilgrimage to South Carolina so he (and other dumbasses) can build an All-Christian state. He thinks this is neccesarry because Chrisitianity is on the decline. The founder of said movement lives in here in Cali and will "Probally move to South Carolina in a year or two".

you get your news from the daily show ? cool.

i'm with pee ro if the churches can do some good it's great. i'm just not down with this bullshit that is getting to be associated with christianity. the christian right has way more power than they should. they (i hope) don't speak for a large percentage of americans with their anti gay, anti abortion bs, "moral" values bs.

dave

BeardedD

I get my news from soulstrut.com

DJ_Enki

you catch the daily show last night? They had some dude going on a pilgrimage to South Carolina so he (and other dumbasses) can build an All-Christian state. He thinks this is neccesarry because Chrisitianity is on the decline. The founder of said movement lives in here in Cali and will "Probally move to South Carolina in a year or two".

Dude, that shit was clownin'. Actually, this entire week, TDS has been killin' it with the "Evolution, Schmevolution" series. I'm also loving the "Meet the Fuckers" series on who screwed up in the wake of Katrina.

Sun_Fortune

Hey, I dont disagree with you and am not tying to start shit, but you defined your terms wrong. If you are an agnostic then by definition you believe in some form of higher power but believe that is unknowable at this time. If you say there is no higher power in your life, then you are an atheist. But as the overwhelming majority of the country is religious, I think those that abstain from religion should not get upset for not being included or try to limit others from practicing. I do believe in seperation but I dont think it is wise to outlaw religion from anything that has to do with the government. That is why the christrian right is pissed off in the first place.

yeah I understand the difference between agnostic, and athiest however I am not ready to say that I don't beleive there is no god, so I still consider myself agnostic.

As for most of the country being religious, thats perfectly fine. But that should be reflected in thier own private lives and not in our representitive government. We are not a Christian nation (not yet anyways) and religion should not play a part in the way our government operates. The Christian right are extremists, believe me when I say they border the same ideals of the Islamic fundamentalists they say are wrong. To push one religious ideal amongst your citizens to is to limit the idea of religious freedom with everyone else.

It gets scary to me and, like I said earlier, makes me feel like less of a US Citizen

I agree with you, but there is this giant block of Christian Fundamentalists. What do we do with them? Do we refuse to even talk with them, thus fueling their insecurity and rage, which will lead to them seeking more power? Or do we talk with them and see whats pissing them off and then maybe they wont be so reactionary. Personally I dont understand hardcore believers so its hard for me to engage in any kind of conversation with them, but I try. And mostly what they're pissed about is that people make light of their religion and try to deny it. As they are believers, they believe we are living in Biblical times and that the sinners will be punished by Jaweh. Im not sure what the right way is to engage them or how to view religion as a part of public life. Honestly, I think outlawing the Pledge of Allegiance in classroms is a foolish decision. Not cause I like the pledge. Its a stupid, fascist thing. But the reason was because it said the words "under god." Now if you are an atheist or simply just dont feel like saying the pledge, thats fine, but the constitution doesnt mandate that religion cannot even be brought up in school. We shouldnt change the habbits and beliefs of most to protect a small minority. Now if that minority were being persectued or not treated equally, then we would have a problem. I thought I had a fat face when I was growing up, but I dealt with it.
And it really pisses the christian righh off.

I dont know if I agree with what I wrote, jsut being the devil.

Bsides

You need god in your life guzzo! Seriously!



Theres also a big difference between separation of church and state and America being a country where "religion isnt supposed to mean shit!"

This country was started by people seeking a place to freely express their religious beliefs. So I think it meant something to them. Even if they were batshit crazy quakers.

The separation of church and state is intended to ensure that everyone has the right to practice any religion they choose. And that the government shall not infringe on this right!

Now I certainly object to christianity being forced down anyones throat, And I see that this has definitely been on the agenda for about 2000 years, and I definitely dont like bush namedropping god all the time when he talks about his maniac quest to rid the world of all things he percieves as "evil".

However, I am not offended by a national day of prayer. Prayer can just mean positive thoughts or energy. Just send those thoughts to people who need them. Thats pretty simple.

I'd be up in arms with you if this was them trying to use religion as some kind of basis for legislating morals.

But the idea that you as an aetheist are offended that other people believe in god is downright hilarious.

Seriously, how will a national day of prayer infringe on anyone's rights? Its a purely meaningless gesture put forth by a president who's looking to gain some morality points with a public that is plainly aware of what a huge mess he got us into.

Sun_Fortune

Ever hear the joke: An agnostic dyslexic imsomniac stayed up all night wondering if there was a dog.

Pretty much describes my life.

grandpa_shig

Edit -- won't let me post my cute picture of Bush with a supersweaty back getting onto the plane after his little speech.

There's something pretty defeatist about calling the US a "Christian country." Although at the present moment the statement is pretty much true, historically and constitutionally this has not always been the case and it's counter-productive to go saying it is.

how do you figure? this country was founded by christians. the laws are all derived from a christian moral point of view. the language of the law is most definately christian. there was nothing in this country's history that wasnt directly or indirectly affected by the christian philosophy. granted, now is a time when politics are beginning to get blantant with their religious ties.

but im not mad at that. i actually feel that living in a christian nation isnt so bad. but dont lie to yourselves. this nation is based on christian fundamentals. it might be hard to see for even jews and muslims. i mean, these are western religions and share far more similarities between them than other ideologies such as buddhism and hinduism. from my understanding, which isnt much, christianity is just syncretic judaism.

anyways, as someone raised under a different philosophy, i am thankful that im even to practice my own thing. i dont expect that this country will level the playing field for religion, though. it just wouldnt be socially or economically viable.

Guzzo

Seriously, how will a national day of prayer infringe on anyone's rights? Its a purely meaningless gesture put forth by a president who's looking to gain some morality points with a public that is plainly aware of what a huge mess he got us into.

I actually think it means more, I don't think its an infringment on my rights at all, but I do think it makes all non-religious people feel seperate from their country. Granted its a very small piece of the big picture but the picture has had plenty of small religous pieces put up. I fear that if this keeps up we will soon lose our idea of tolerance, and with that our right to religious freedom. Perhaps I'm thinking too far out the norm, but if you told me 5 years ago we would be at war with terrorism on any border and that the City of New Orleans would be completely destroyed I would have said "whatever, it ain't gonna happen".
Time can make the outrageous seem normal

Sun_Fortune

Seriously, how will a national day of prayer infringe on anyone's rights? Its a purely meaningless gesture put forth by a president who's looking to gain some morality points with a public that is plainly aware of what a huge mess he got us into.

I actually think it means more, I don't think its an infringment on my rights at all, but I do think it makes all non-religious people feel seperate from their country. Granted its a very small piece of the big picture but the picture has had plenty of small religous pieces put up. I fear that if this keeps up we will soon lose our idea of tolerance, and with that our right to religious freedom. Perhaps I'm thinking too far out the norm, but if you told me 5 years ago we would be at war with terrorism on any border and that the City of New Orleans would be completely destroyed I would have said "whatever, it ain't gonna happen".
Time can make the outrageous seem normal

Dude, the apocalypse is coming. You should pray.

volumen

Edit -- won't let me post my cute picture of Bush with a supersweaty back getting onto the plane after his little speech.

There's something pretty defeatist about calling the US a "Christian country." Although at the present moment the statement is pretty much true, historically and constitutionally this has not always been the case and it's counter-productive to go saying it is.

how do you figure? this country was founded by christians. the laws are all derived from a christian moral point of view. the language of the law is most definately christian. there was nothing in this country's history that wasnt directly or indirectly affected by the christian philosophy. granted, now is a time when politics are beginning to get blantant with their religious ties.

but im not mad at that. i actually feel that living in a christian nation isnt so bad. but dont lie to yourselves. this nation is based on christian fundamentals. it might be hard to see for even jews and muslims. i mean, these are western religions and share far more similarities between them than other ideologies such as buddhism and hinduism. from my understanding, which isnt much, christianity is just syncretic judaism.

anyways, as someone raised under a different philosophy, i am thankful that im even to practice my own thing. i dont expect that this country will level the playing field for religion, though. it just wouldnt be socially or economically viable.

This pretty much says it all. Guzzo your right to be bothered because we are governed by Christians who want us to be "one of them".

We have God on our money, God in our pledge, God in our bedroom. Religious freedom doesn't mean there is any kind of equality.....

Bsides

Edit -- won't let me post my cute picture of Bush with a supersweaty back getting onto the plane after his little speech.

There's something pretty defeatist about calling the US a "Christian country." Although at the present moment the statement is pretty much true, historically and constitutionally this has not always been the case and it's counter-productive to go saying it is.

how do you figure? this country was founded by christians. the laws are all derived from a christian moral point of view. the language of the law is most definately christian. there was nothing in this country's history that wasnt directly or indirectly affected by the christian philosophy. granted, now is a time when politics are beginning to get blantant with their religious ties.

but im not mad at that. i actually feel that living in a christian nation isnt so bad. but dont lie to yourselves. this nation is based on christian fundamentals. it might be hard to see for even jews and muslims. i mean, these are western religions and share far more similarities between them than other ideologies such as buddhism and hinduism. from my understanding, which isnt much, christianity is just syncretic judaism.

anyways, as someone raised under a different philosophy, i am thankful that im even to practice my own thing. i dont expect that this country will level the playing field for religion, though. it just wouldnt be socially or economically viable.

This pretty much says it all. Guzzo your right to be bothered because we are governed by Christians who want us to be "one of them".

We have God on our money, God in our pledge, God in our bedroom. Religious freedom doesn't mean there is any kind of equality.....

What have you guys got against god?

Hes a good guy/girl/omnipotent force. Weird sense of humor though.

volumen

What have you guys got against god?



Hes a good guy/girl/omnipotent force. Weird sense of humor though.

I don't have anything against him since he's a figmant of people's imagination.

Brian

5 pager

Young_Phonics

you catch the daily show last night? They had some dude going on a pilgrimage to South Carolina so he (and other dumbasses) can build an All-Christian state. He thinks this is neccesarry because Chrisitianity is on the decline. The founder of said movement lives in here in Cali and will "Probally move to South Carolina in a year or two".

you get your news from the daily show ? cool.

the onion.com, gossiping bitches, catchdubbs.com, soulstrut.com, and myspace. I think those sources are just as reliable as the bullshit on T.V.


i'm only half-kidding

Vagabond

I found Jesus !!!!!























He was under the couch the whole time.





My Own Personal Jesus.[/b]

Grafwritah

I'm rather anti-religion. I think that many times it give some people license to act in whatever way they please with no justification because it can be twisted to fit whatever message one believes in. It's like basing your life decisions on Shakespeare plays.

What Would Shakespeare Do - Who the fuck knows? He's been dead for hundreds of years.

This coming from a person with many deeply religious family members - southern family members.

But regardless of how I feel about religion in general, George Bush in no way factors in to it.

Why?

I don't think he's any sort of Christian crusader.

What I think he is is an ideological pimp. And he's pimping Christianity hard.

Nothing new (playing to voter groups), there are a lot of Christians in the US and there are a lot of things pushing at traditional Christian beliefs and the guy (and his "crew") have played on that to the fullest.





IMO.



Peace,

An atheist

volumen

What I think he is is an ideological pimp. And he's pimping Christianity hard.

Da Truth!

He's one of those "was going to get cut off by daddy if I didn't quit the booze and drugs" Christians.

Kinda like Clinton was a "if I go to church on Sunday I can get a BJ on Monday".