But which one do you have control over? The cops decisions or your own?
So, don't worry about police decisions because you can't control them?
An average person making good decisions does nothing to curtail the damage done by a law officer who makes poor ones, particularly when so many of those poor decisions come and go with no consequence, and because a law officer's poor decision is more likely (than the average person's) to result in unnecessary death and destruction. However, the decisions are only part of the problem. Equally (or perhaps more) dangerous is the idea that we don't need to hold law officers to the same standards and the same consequences as everyone else.
I don't think the problem is lack of restraint and self control among African Americans.
It is the lack of restraint and self control among some police officers.
Take DW: Could have stopped his car, gotten out and talked to the youths.
Instead, lacking restraint, yelled from his car.
Could have waited for back up when youths did not comply, instead aggressively confronted them.
Could have used pepper spray when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used baton when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used flashlight when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used taser (except he chose not to carry one) when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Michael Brown is dead, not because of his lack of restraint, but because of DW's failure to exercise self control and restraint.
Yes, I agree.
But which one do you have control over? The cops decisions or your own?
I have control over my decisions, but not the decisions made by Michael Brown.
But police departments work for the people.
I think the people should hold the police to a higher standard than we do teens, or as in Cleveland, pre-teens.
We need to change the laws, and the way they are enforced, so that an officer saying 'I feared for myself and others', is not an excuse for murder.
we should never behave in ways that arouse feelings of threat or danger. On the contrary, we should be polite and respectful, irrespective of whatever disrespect is perpetrated against us
Everyone should.
How is this not an easy choice for some?
Are you serious? Have you ever heard of testosterone? Did you have any when you were 18 years old?
Ever heard of self control or restraint?
Look it up and try it sometime.
Especially in situations when it might help you.
Wow. I can't believe I even had to say that.
You asked why it was hard for "some people." I wasn't answering about myself, Einstein. I'm not 18. But that you're so dense you can't comprehend why some people might find it hard to push back against unfair and abusive "authorities" makes me wonder if you were born without balls and a spine.
Why doesn't your type ever ask the cops to behave with more respect for civilians? Never mind, I know the answer.
I don't think the problem is lack of restraint and self control among African Americans.
It is the lack of restraint and self control among some police officers.
Take DW: Could have stopped his car, gotten out and talked to the youths.
Instead, lacking restraint, yelled from his car.
Could have waited for back up when youths did not comply, instead aggressively confronted them.
Could have used pepper spray when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used baton when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used flashlight when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Could have used taser (except he chose not to carry one) when things escalated, instead pulled his gun.
Michael Brown is dead, not because of his lack of restraint, but because of DW's failure to exercise self control and restraint.
Yes. The cops work for the citizens, not vice versa, and it is incumbent upon them to remember that every single hour they work. Cops who forget that and treat citizens like bad meat should lose their jobs. The punk who killed Eric Garner shouldn't even have been on the job anymore, given his history.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
BallzDeep said:
Fred_Garvin said:
An average person making good decisions does nothing to curtail the damage done by a law officer
Stacks and I might disagree with you a little.
Hey Ballzdeep,
The matter of self-control is relevant to the citizens and the police. As Black males go, I wouldn't hold my breath expecting some officers to show any restraint in dealing with us, owing to the unconscious biases they hold (as I have alluded to this entire thread). So, unfortunately, the onus falls on us to protect our own lives. Although our taxes pay for police salaries, some of them refuse to give us the proper respect as a citizenry. Don't get it twisted, we're not in agreement here. Then again, since you have probably never had a police officer treat you with indignity (e.g., wrongfully accuse you, speak to you with disrespect, harass you for no reason, follow you in a car or on foot, etc.), you will never understand the point I'm making. As Sly Stone said, "it's the skin I'm in."
Then again, since you have probably never had a police officer treat you with indignity
Uh, really?
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
BallzDeep said:
Big_Stacks said:
Then again, since you have probably never had a police officer treat you with indignity
Uh, really?
Yes, that's what I meant to say. Your previous statements have come across as you lacking exposure to police mistreatment (which, if true, is a good thing). Pardon me if I my assumption is incorrect. I know first-hand that you can mind your own damn business and still have some cop fuck with you and treat you like an 8th-class citizen (hell, 2nd-class citizen would be a move up).
we should never behave in ways that arouse feelings of threat or danger. On the contrary, we should be polite and respectful, irrespective of whatever disrespect is perpetrated against us
Everyone should.
How is this not an easy choice for some?
Are you serious? Have you ever heard of testosterone? Did you have any when you were 18 years old?
Ever heard of self control or restraint?
Look it up and try it sometime.
Especially in situations when it might help you.
Wow. I can't believe I even had to say that.
You asked why it was hard for "some people." I wasn't answering about myself, Einstein. I'm not 18. But that you're so dense you can't comprehend why some people might find it hard to push back against unfair and abusive "authorities" makes me wonder if you were born without balls and a spine.
Why doesn't your type ever ask the cops to behave with more respect for civilians? Never mind, I know the answer.
[Yes, that's what I meant to say. Your previous statements have come across as you lacking exposure to police mistreatment (which, if true, is a good thing). Pardon me if I my assumption is incorrect. I know first-hand that you can mind your own damn business and still have some cop fuck with you and treat you like an 8th-class citizen (hell, 2nd-class citizen would be a move up).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Stacks,
I have shared here in the past my various run-ins with Police where I was treated in a similar fashion, most likely because of the way I look. I was flat out told by a Police Sergeant that this happened because I "fit the profile" from the way I look right down to the vehicle I was driving. My worst experience was with a black officer and I am certain that if I had not kept my cool the result would have been very negative. I was once followed home by two police officers who confronted me in my drive-way because the car I was driving fit the description of a murder suspect. Ironically when the suspect was caught, he was a black man.
Can we attribute both of our experiences to the same police mentality or are they different because of our race?
The punk who killed Eric Garner shouldn't even have been on the job anymore, given his history.
It's a bit surprising he still does. The again, the millions it will cost the city in legal fees from the inevitable lawsuit may be what's preventing his firing.
we should never behave in ways that arouse feelings of threat or danger. On the contrary, we should be polite and respectful, irrespective of whatever disrespect is perpetrated against us
Everyone should.
How is this not an easy choice for some?
Are you serious? Have you ever heard of testosterone? Did you have any when you were 18 years old?
Ever heard of self control or restraint?
Look it up and try it sometime.
Especially in situations when it might help you.
Wow. I can't believe I even had to say that.
You asked why it was hard for "some people." I wasn't answering about myself, Einstein. I'm not 18. But that you're so dense you can't comprehend why some people might find it hard to push back against unfair and abusive "authorities" makes me wonder if you were born without balls and a spine.
Why doesn't your type ever ask the cops to behave with more respect for civilians? Never mind, I know the answer.
OK now it's obvious you're not serious.
Haha jokes on me. Good one.
Right. "Serious" is a puerile jackass like you responding to a thoughtful answer from Stacks with, "Uh, really?"
You and Dicksplit are two pricks in a pod. You're one habitually unserious rumpswab.
I was once followed home by two police officers who confronted me in my drive-way because the car I was driving fit the description of a murder suspect. Ironically when the suspect was caught, he was a black man.
Can we attribute both of our experiences to the same police mentality or are they different because of our race?
What race is your car?
That particular story doesn't exactly fit the profile.
The punk who killed Eric Garner shouldn't even have been on the job anymore, given his history.
It's a bit surprising he still does. The again, the millions it will cost the city in legal fees from the inevitable lawsuit may be what's preventing his firing.
Nah. Cops just don't like to be told what to do by mere citizens.
Those millions are going to be paid out whether he's fired or not. Abner Louima settled for $8.75 million. This could be higher.
It pains me to believe that you would think a seasoned cop who works in a predominantly black town would be scared of some black punk.
We know he was scared because he said he was scared. He felt like a 5 year old kid next to Hulk Hogan. His fear didn't even abate when Brown was running away from him.
^^haha yes i buy records all the time.
embarrassingly i was the one calling for an end to these threads,
and here i am posting in them.
sorry.
Hypocrisy is the defining trait of American right-wingers. Don't be sorry. Grow up. There are tools that can help you. They're called books.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
[Yes, that's what I meant to say. Your previous statements have come across as you lacking exposure to police mistreatment (which, if true, is a good thing). Pardon me if I my assumption is incorrect. I know first-hand that you can mind your own damn business and still have some cop fuck with you and treat you like an 8th-class citizen (hell, 2nd-class citizen would be a move up).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Stacks,
I have shared here in the past my various run-ins with Police where I was treated in a similar fashion, most likely because of the way I look. I was flat out told by a Police Sergeant that this happened because I "fit the profile" from the way I look right down to the vehicle I was driving. My worst experience was with a black officer and I am certain that if I had not kept my cool the result would have been very negative. I was once followed home by two police officers who confronted me in my drive-way because the car I was driving fit the description of a murder suspect. Ironically when the suspect was caught, he was a black man.
Can we attribute both of our experiences to the same police mentality or are they different because of our race?
Hey Rock,
Great question, and I address it in the following manner. The simple answer lies in societal status and related stereotypes. Here in the U.S., White have higher status than Blacks. Of course, this status also relates to differences in income and background. The point is, on average, Blacks are viewed more negatively in society than Whites. Numerous literatures (e.g., sociology, criminology, psychology, political science, etc.) present evidence supporting the notion that Blacks are viewed as less competent (and warm) than Whites. The notion of competence differences shows up in research like Devah Pager's (2003) audit study (in Milwaukee, ironically enough) which showed that a White man who was an ex-convict and lacked a college degree was statistically more likely to receive an employer callback for an interview than a Black man with a college degree and no prior convictions. Or, regarding stereotypes, Amy Cuddy's and colleagues (2007) showed that Blacks are viewed as less competent and warm than Whites (high competence and high warmth), and the associated emotional reaction with such stereotypes (moderate competence and warmth) is indifference (whereas Whites are admired). Indifference leads to a mix of active and passive harm of the stereotype target, while admiration results in efforts to actively help the individual. Even within race, there is subtyping that occurs that help maintain existing negative stereotypes of Blacks. For instance, Patricia Devine's work shows that Black businessmen and athletes are viewed more positively than Blacks in general. Amy Cuddy and her colleagues found similar evidence (e.g., Black professionals were viewed as high competence-low warmth), which suggests that encountering Blacks who are anti-stereotypical fails to undermine the larger and general negative stereotype. She also showed that views of the poor are downright virulent, and race and poverty are rather strongly correlated, again disfavoring Blacks. Recently, I read a study on brain stimulation in response to stereotyped groups. The results showed that people who viewed pictures of groups stereotyped as low in competence and warmth (e.g., the poor, welfare recipients), compared to other combinations of competence and warmth (i.e., high-high [e.g., Whites, women, middle-class], high-low [e.g., Asians, professionals], low-high [e.g., the disabled, the elderly]) did not exhibit any medial pre-frontal cortex stimulation (an area of the brain that responds during social interactions). The participants showed the same brain response to pictures of inanimate objects (Harris & Fiske, 2006 in Psychological Science)! In other words, people seen as low in competence and warmth are reacted to as 'inhuman' according to the researchers.
Other disparities include differential accuracy in eyewitness testimony (see Elizabeth Loftus's work), reports of police use of force (Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Police-Public Contact" Survey, 2008), judges' sentencing (Doerner & Demuth, 2010 in Justice Quarterly), residential integration (i.e., the likelihood of moving into White communities that have high-quality amenities such as good schools, low crime, etc.; see Douglas Massey's voluminous work), mortgage loans (Cheng, Lin, & Liu, forthcoming, Journal of Real Estate Finance and Economics), car loans (Center for Responsible Lending, 2014), quality of healthcare (National Healthcare Quality and Disparities Reports, 2011), etc. all disfavoring Blacks. So, you and I are likely to face quite a different judicial system (and society overall) based largely upon our racial differences.
Overall, my point in this thread is to point out a possible reason for why the Brown case occurred, not to vilify anyone. Unconscious biases are very powerful and resistant to change. The comments above reflect general trends and, of course, exceptions exist. Nonetheless, U.S. society is a fertile breeding ground for racial-ethnic inequalities, and they're steeped in a very long history older than all of us here on Soul Strut.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Dickwidth said:
It may be more valuable to look at the cause of why blacks are viewed negatively as opposed to finding numerous ways to show how they are viewed negatively.
^^^^^knowledge
Hey,
My response was to Rockadelic's question. If you can form a direct question as he did, then I'd be happy to dignify it with a response. But, while I'm typing, I'll respond. Simply put, the history of the U.S., as I stated in my earlier response, explains the nature of racial-ethnic relations in this country to the present day. Historians, sociologists, and psychologists have chronicled the problem since Gunnar Myrdal, Robert Park, John Hope Franklin, E. Franklin Frazier, Robert Merton, Kurt Lewin, Erving Goffman, Gordon Allport, etc. started in the early 1900s. Some other useful reading includes the 1966 Coleman Report, more recent work by Roland Fryer, Steve Levitt, and others.
I don't think it would be possible to dignify any question that bottom feeder comes up with, Stacks. Unless the process involved twisting his head off and a woodchipper.
Meanwhile, in the Boulder, Co area, an officer received a felony conviction, 4 years' probation, $10k in fines, community service, and will no longer be allowed to serve on a police force...
...for covering up the fact that he shot an elk out of season.
^I'd guess Dickwidth is either racist or ignorant. But DW stated that he/she is not racist and claims that academia is a liberal conspiracy. Dickwidth also apparently bases their understanding of reality on a twenty year old analysis by (wait for it) academics.
So my guess is: willfully ignorant. Stacks' discussion of confirmation bias seems mad relevant.
Comments
An average person making good decisions does nothing to curtail the damage done by a law officer who makes poor ones, particularly when so many of those poor decisions come and go with no consequence, and because a law officer's poor decision is more likely (than the average person's) to result in unnecessary death and destruction. However, the decisions are only part of the problem. Equally (or perhaps more) dangerous is the idea that we don't need to hold law officers to the same standards and the same consequences as everyone else.
I have control over my decisions, but not the decisions made by Michael Brown.
But police departments work for the people.
I think the people should hold the police to a higher standard than we do teens, or as in Cleveland, pre-teens.
We need to change the laws, and the way they are enforced, so that an officer saying 'I feared for myself and others', is not an excuse for murder.
Stacks and I might disagree with you a little.
You asked why it was hard for "some people." I wasn't answering about myself, Einstein. I'm not 18. But that you're so dense you can't comprehend why some people might find it hard to push back against unfair and abusive "authorities" makes me wonder if you were born without balls and a spine.
Why doesn't your type ever ask the cops to behave with more respect for civilians? Never mind, I know the answer.
Yes. The cops work for the citizens, not vice versa, and it is incumbent upon them to remember that every single hour they work. Cops who forget that and treat citizens like bad meat should lose their jobs. The punk who killed Eric Garner shouldn't even have been on the job anymore, given his history.
Hey Ballzdeep,
The matter of self-control is relevant to the citizens and the police. As Black males go, I wouldn't hold my breath expecting some officers to show any restraint in dealing with us, owing to the unconscious biases they hold (as I have alluded to this entire thread). So, unfortunately, the onus falls on us to protect our own lives. Although our taxes pay for police salaries, some of them refuse to give us the proper respect as a citizenry. Don't get it twisted, we're not in agreement here. Then again, since you have probably never had a police officer treat you with indignity (e.g., wrongfully accuse you, speak to you with disrespect, harass you for no reason, follow you in a car or on foot, etc.), you will never understand the point I'm making. As Sly Stone said, "it's the skin I'm in."
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
as not being consistent with
Uh, really?
Yes, that's what I meant to say. Your previous statements have come across as you lacking exposure to police mistreatment (which, if true, is a good thing). Pardon me if I my assumption is incorrect. I know first-hand that you can mind your own damn business and still have some cop fuck with you and treat you like an 8th-class citizen (hell, 2nd-class citizen would be a move up).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
OK now it's obvious you're not serious.
Haha jokes on me. Good one.
Stacks,
I have shared here in the past my various run-ins with Police where I was treated in a similar fashion, most likely because of the way I look. I was flat out told by a Police Sergeant that this happened because I "fit the profile" from the way I look right down to the vehicle I was driving. My worst experience was with a black officer and I am certain that if I had not kept my cool the result would have been very negative. I was once followed home by two police officers who confronted me in my drive-way because the car I was driving fit the description of a murder suspect. Ironically when the suspect was caught, he was a black man.
Can we attribute both of our experiences to the same police mentality or are they different because of our race?
It's a bit surprising he still does. The again, the millions it will cost the city in legal fees from the inevitable lawsuit may be what's preventing his firing.
Right. "Serious" is a puerile jackass like you responding to a thoughtful answer from Stacks with, "Uh, really?"
You and Dicksplit are two pricks in a pod. You're one habitually unserious rumpswab.
What race is your car?
That particular story doesn't exactly fit the profile.
You win.
Nah. Cops just don't like to be told what to do by mere citizens.
Those millions are going to be paid out whether he's fired or not. Abner Louima settled for $8.75 million. This could be higher.
Uh, really?
b/w
do you fucks even buy records?
embarrassingly i was the one calling for an end to these threads,
and here i am posting in them.
sorry.
I posted three songs here tonight while crappy was pissing and moaning about my existence.
b/w
Do you even have a turntable?
We know he was scared because he said he was scared. He felt like a 5 year old kid next to Hulk Hogan. His fear didn't even abate when Brown was running away from him.
Being afraid is his entire defense.
Hypocrisy is the defining trait of American right-wingers. Don't be sorry. Grow up. There are tools that can help you. They're called books.
Hey Rock,
Great question, and I address it in the following manner. The simple answer lies in societal status and related stereotypes. Here in the U.S., White have higher status than Blacks. Of course, this status also relates to differences in income and background. The point is, on average, Blacks are viewed more negatively in society than Whites. Numerous literatures (e.g., sociology, criminology, psychology, political science, etc.) present evidence supporting the notion that Blacks are viewed as less competent (and warm) than Whites. The notion of competence differences shows up in research like Devah Pager's (2003) audit study (in Milwaukee, ironically enough) which showed that a White man who was an ex-convict and lacked a college degree was statistically more likely to receive an employer callback for an interview than a Black man with a college degree and no prior convictions. Or, regarding stereotypes, Amy Cuddy's and colleagues (2007) showed that Blacks are viewed as less competent and warm than Whites (high competence and high warmth), and the associated emotional reaction with such stereotypes (moderate competence and warmth) is indifference (whereas Whites are admired). Indifference leads to a mix of active and passive harm of the stereotype target, while admiration results in efforts to actively help the individual. Even within race, there is subtyping that occurs that help maintain existing negative stereotypes of Blacks. For instance, Patricia Devine's work shows that Black businessmen and athletes are viewed more positively than Blacks in general. Amy Cuddy and her colleagues found similar evidence (e.g., Black professionals were viewed as high competence-low warmth), which suggests that encountering Blacks who are anti-stereotypical fails to undermine the larger and general negative stereotype. She also showed that views of the poor are downright virulent, and race and poverty are rather strongly correlated, again disfavoring Blacks. Recently, I read a study on brain stimulation in response to stereotyped groups. The results showed that people who viewed pictures of groups stereotyped as low in competence and warmth (e.g., the poor, welfare recipients), compared to other combinations of competence and warmth (i.e., high-high [e.g., Whites, women, middle-class], high-low [e.g., Asians, professionals], low-high [e.g., the disabled, the elderly]) did not exhibit any medial pre-frontal cortex stimulation (an area of the brain that responds during social interactions). The participants showed the same brain response to pictures of inanimate objects (Harris & Fiske, 2006 in Psychological Science)! In other words, people seen as low in competence and warmth are reacted to as 'inhuman' according to the researchers.
Other disparities include differential accuracy in eyewitness testimony (see Elizabeth Loftus's work), reports of police use of force (Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Police-Public Contact" Survey, 2008), judges' sentencing (Doerner & Demuth, 2010 in Justice Quarterly), residential integration (i.e., the likelihood of moving into White communities that have high-quality amenities such as good schools, low crime, etc.; see Douglas Massey's voluminous work), mortgage loans (Cheng, Lin, & Liu, forthcoming, Journal of Real Estate Finance and Economics), car loans (Center for Responsible Lending, 2014), quality of healthcare (National Healthcare Quality and Disparities Reports, 2011), etc. all disfavoring Blacks. So, you and I are likely to face quite a different judicial system (and society overall) based largely upon our racial differences.
Overall, my point in this thread is to point out a possible reason for why the Brown case occurred, not to vilify anyone. Unconscious biases are very powerful and resistant to change. The comments above reflect general trends and, of course, exceptions exist. Nonetheless, U.S. society is a fertile breeding ground for racial-ethnic inequalities, and they're steeped in a very long history older than all of us here on Soul Strut.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Hey,
My response was to Rockadelic's question. If you can form a direct question as he did, then I'd be happy to dignify it with a response. But, while I'm typing, I'll respond. Simply put, the history of the U.S., as I stated in my earlier response, explains the nature of racial-ethnic relations in this country to the present day. Historians, sociologists, and psychologists have chronicled the problem since Gunnar Myrdal, Robert Park, John Hope Franklin, E. Franklin Frazier, Robert Merton, Kurt Lewin, Erving Goffman, Gordon Allport, etc. started in the early 1900s. Some other useful reading includes the 1966 Coleman Report, more recent work by Roland Fryer, Steve Levitt, and others.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
I know, I know. Too harsh. But not by much.
...for covering up the fact that he shot an elk out of season.
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_26429509/mapleton-elk-sentencing-sam-carter-boulder-police
Does this mean you're going to stop playing games and just admit that you're a racist?
b/w
I think Edward Murphy's [em]Trading Places*[/em] (Ackroyd et al) disproves this idea.
* d'oh, corrected
So my guess is: willfully ignorant. Stacks' discussion of confirmation bias seems mad relevant.
Hahaha!!!