jSoul II Soul:
The music? Bliss it was in that dawn to be alive. There was one particular Friday night at the Hacienda where it was just live as fuck, as it often was, and one of the DJs ??? I couldn't tell you who ??? threw on the album version of Back To Life. At peak time. So you've got Caron Wheeler's voice and all those wild harmonies sailing out, unhindered, over this crowd of a couple thousand or so lunatics, who are all completely off their nut. Airhorns, whistles, whooping and hollering, the whole lot. And then, here come the drums. And the place goes screaming fucking mad. Absolute pandemonium.
.
This piece of writing made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Write a book, dude.
The years in the game, the depth of knowledge and recall, the ability to articulate and meld it togethr, the wider horizon , the perspective, is unique and needs a wider audience,
Doc: just to specify, did you mean the LP version of "Back to Life" or the 12" acapella intro that goes on for like...2 minutes before the drums kick in? Ala "Belly" style:
Doc: just to specify, did you mean the LP version of "Back to Life" or the 12" acapella intro that goes on for like...2 minutes before the drums kick in?
The lp version is the one with the lengthy acapella intro. The version that blew up in the US was the single version.
What a great idea for a thread, and Doc you are a king among men for answering seriously.
My question: who ended up squandering his talent, opportunity, and influence the most, and why? Jerry Dammers or Jazzie B? Or someone else?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
mannybolone said:
Doc: just to specify, did you mean the LP version of "Back to Life" or the 12" acapella intro that goes on for like...2 minutes before the drums kick in? Ala "Belly" style:
This version was the LP version in the UK.
The UK 12" mix, with the break from Dancing Room Only, wasn't on the album originally. The Acappella Intro version on that label scan is the same as the UK radio edit. Maybe the regular 12" version was on the US album too?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
I'm not crapping out here, by the way. Some of these questions are pretty tough. Fun answering them, though.
Just as a sidetrack, I love the ballsy move of having entire verses come and go before the drums kick in. Soul II Soul did it with straight acapella, but I also dig how Outkast did it on "Hootie Hoo" with Big Boi's entire verse plus the first chorus happening purely over the bassline with the little bit of hi-hat. In both cases, when the drums finally do kick in, it's serious business.
Doc: just to specify, did you mean the LP version of "Back to Life" or the 12" acapella intro that goes on for like...2 minutes before the drums kick in?
The lp version is the one with the lengthy acapella intro. The version that blew up in the US was the single version.
I had always associated the acapella version with the "Acapella Intro" version on the 12" but I also haven't listened to the actual Soul II Soul album in yeaaaaaars
Just as a sidetrack, I love the ballsy move of having entire verses come and go before the drums kick in. Soul II Soul did it with straight acapella, but I also dig how Outkast did it on "Hootie Hoo" with Big Boi's entire verse plus the first chorus happening purely over the bassline with the little bit of hi-hat. In both cases, when the drums finally do kick in, it's serious business.
Word. Though I'd say the thing with the Soul II Soul that makes it so special is both its length (I mean, that acapella goes on for a while) and the utter lack of any kind of instrumentation beneath it. It's not even easy to catch a rhythm off the singing until they hit the chorus part. It probably would dead a dancefloor if not for the intensity of Wheeler's voice and performance. By the time the drums come in, it's unexpected (I've always had trouble trying to blend-mix this in for that reason) but rewarding for its surprise.
The Outkast is different because the hi-hat totally sets the listener up in anticipation for a kick/snare beat that keeps getting delayed and delayed. It's like the group is deliberately fucking with you, knowing what you're waiting for but delaying gratification purposefully. When I've played out the Soul II Soul, often times, dancers aren't sure what's going on. It's a different kind of anticipation and tension being built.
The Outkast is different because the hi-hat totally sets the listener up in anticipation for a kick/snare beat that keeps getting delayed and delayed. It's like the group is deliberately fucking with you, knowing what you're waiting for but delaying gratification purposefully.
Word. I thought the same thing was happening the first time I heard Mystikal's "Bouncing Back"--I was waiting for drums that never actually showed up. Which kinda made me like the song even more.
Doc: justice for the 96? Or still not enough names named?
:Lighter:
Related... if terracing is absolved, would the Prem see a return of them? Have you been to a match in Berlin/Germany with them? How does it work there?
Mercury Prize:
Alt-J - An Awesome Wave
Django Django - Django Django
Field Music - Plumb
Richard Hawley - Standing at the Sky's Edge
Ben Howard - Every Kingdom
Michael Kiwanuka - Home Again
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love Big Enough?
Sam Lee - Ground of Its Own
The Maccabees - Given to the Wild
Plan B - Ill Manors
Roller Trio - Roller Trio
Jessie Ware - Devotion
Who do I put the money on then?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
DJ_Enki said:
Just as a sidetrack, I love the ballsy move of having entire verses come and go before the drums kick in. Soul II Soul did it with straight acapella, but I also dig how Outkast did it on "Hootie Hoo" with Big Boi's entire verse plus the first chorus happening purely over the bassline with the little bit of hi-hat. In both cases, when the drums finally do kick in, it's serious business.
Doc: justice for the 96? Or still not enough names named?
:Lighter:
Related... if terracing is absolved, would the Prem see a return of them? Have you been to a match in Berlin/Germany with them? How does it work there?
Mercury Prize:
Alt-J - An Awesome Wave
Django Django - Django Django
Field Music - Plumb
Richard Hawley - Standing at the Sky's Edge
Ben Howard - Every Kingdom
Michael Kiwanuka - Home Again
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love Big Enough?
Sam Lee - Ground of Its Own
The Maccabees - Given to the Wild
Plan B - Ill Manors
Roller Trio - Roller Trio
Jessie Ware - Devotion
Who do I put the money on then?
Each-way bet on these sounds good to me:
Alt-J - An Awesome Wave
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love Big Enough?
Jessie Ware - Devotion
I've only heard the last one but it appears to me that there's marketing heat being applied to these. And I am smirking at the L La H title.
Fascinating stuff. Always a pleasure to hear Doc talk.
If it's not on the just plain nosey side, I'd bee interested to hear a little bit about the various music related jobs you've had over the years; how you got into the industry in the first place; changes you've seen, over the years, and as you've worked through the industry.
I'm sure you've got some good stories, secret meetings with industrial prison complex lizard people plotting the subjugation of all scousers, that sort of thing.
Also, a question: You mentioned Warp Records earlier on, and to me it seems that, with the exception of one or two small labels or artists, there hasn't been a really strong scene in the North for some time. Am I wrong? It is just London media bias? Is Donk the true British underground?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
MusicaDelAlma said:
I hope the gawd has the day off work tomorrow with all these questions!
b/w
What was your #1 proudest moment as a Liverpool fan?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Hey, Stacks,
What's your take on the "Evolution" LP by The Hollies?
I have to confess to something of a blind spot as regards the Hollies. I always saw them as more of a singles act, and never really checked their albums prior to that point in the 70s after Allan Clarke rejoined. I don't know this record at all, but I will seek it out ASAP - it's not one I ever hear come up in conversation with those friends of mine who are deep into their 60s/psych/pop.
Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath
Led Zeppelin.
What ever happened to 5 Star and why aren't they mentioned in discussion of 80s U.K R&B to cross over to the U.S.?
Yeah, people in the UK forget they had a few hits Stateside. As I recall, they were spectacularly mismanaged by their dad and went broke just as their popularity in the UK began to slide, which was further compounded by one of the guys having a bit of a Tevin Campbell/George Michael moment. I dunno how they were marketed in the US, but they came out of the gate as more of a pop act in the UK, and never had the same kind of credibility with the soul/r&b crowd. When they tried to reach a more adult audience, it didn't come off.
I once saw Deniece Pearson riding the Tube in London, maybe 20 years ago. I didn't recognise her right away, although I do remember thinking she looked familiar. She also looked hot as fuck - really tall and good-looking. So there I am, sneaking glances at her and trying not to stare when I realise she's noticed me giving her the eye. Rather than screwing me back, as I might have expected her to (or smiling, which would have thrown me for a fucking loop), she actually looked a little embarrassed. Right then I remembered why she looked familiar, and I figured out why she looked embarrassed - their bankruptcy had been quite a big story in the UK tabloids, so she was probably stood there, strap-hanging and thinking, "That guy probably knows I was driving a Lamborghini five years ago and probably knows we went broke, and now he's seen me riding the Tube and thinks I'm a failure..."
Why wasn't "(Evening) Time to Get Away" not listed as a separate track on the "Days of Future Passed" LP by The Moody Blues?
I have absolutely no idea. My man Jimmy Brown would probably know - he's a pretty hardcore Moodies head. I'll try and find out.
How strongly is Jethro Tull revered in the U.K.? Do you consider Ian Anderson a musical genius? Please explain why you think so (or not).
I always got the impression Ian Anderson felt he was a bit of a prophet-without-honour in the UK. When punk emerged, he seemed to resent the way it sucked up all the critical attention. As a matter of fact, he always seemed more bothered about critics generally than he needed to be. Judging by a radio interview I heard a few months ago, he still seems more than a little bitter that Tull aren't as widely revered in the UK as they are in the US and the rest of Europe (particularly Eastern Europe, where they're really big). Although I liked some of their stuff I was never a huge Tull fan, so I don't know if I'd describe him as a musical genius. I think there's an argument to be made for the way in which he's followed his own path so determinedly. But he does seem a little pompous.
Why did Soft Machine move from prog rock to pretty much playing jazz in the mid 70s? Was it because Robert Wyatt left, or some other reason?
I wouldn't have thought that Wyatt leaving any band he was in would alone be enough to send it in a jazzier direction. Wyatt's a hardcore jazzer at heart, and I reckon the die was cast by the time Third came out anyway. I'm inclined to think that Mike Ratledge and Hugh Hopper were just becoming less interested in conventional song forms whereas if you look at Wyatt's career as a solo performer, you'd say the opposite was true of him. Wyatt's often voiced a fair bit of contempt towards prog-rock as well; he said something in an interview a few years ago about how ridiculous he thought it was to suggest that stuff was more progressive than someone like Monk.
Many thanks to Doc for playing along with this, seems I and many others were genuinely keen to get that perspective on a wide range of topics.
Bit of a busman's holiday, and dude would normally get paid for dispensing these pearls, but y'know dude's love of the form is so deep he cannot stop himself from giving it away gratis.
And the number of Qs is testament to his standing here.
I doubt there's more than a handful of people worldwide who have the combination of history, horizon, articularity, detailed knowledge, recall, writing skills, insider involvement and willingness to opine that Doc has up in here.
World needs a Mop-style collected works.
Where's 4YG at?
Comments
Do you prefer multi producer hip hip records or single producer?
BBC did a decent doc a bit back. Here are links if anyone is interested.
Pre-Punk 1972-1976
Punk 1976-1978
Post-Punk 1978-1981
Great replies by Doc. Enjoying thread!
MORE MORE MORE
This piece of writing made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Write a book, dude.
The years in the game, the depth of knowledge and recall, the ability to articulate and meld it togethr, the wider horizon , the perspective, is unique and needs a wider audience,
Propers.
My question: who ended up squandering his talent, opportunity, and influence the most, and why? Jerry Dammers or Jazzie B? Or someone else?
This version was the LP version in the UK.
The UK 12" mix, with the break from Dancing Room Only, wasn't on the album originally. The Acappella Intro version on that label scan is the same as the UK radio edit. Maybe the regular 12" version was on the US album too?
I had always associated the acapella version with the "Acapella Intro" version on the 12" but I also haven't listened to the actual Soul II Soul album in yeaaaaaars
Word. Though I'd say the thing with the Soul II Soul that makes it so special is both its length (I mean, that acapella goes on for a while) and the utter lack of any kind of instrumentation beneath it. It's not even easy to catch a rhythm off the singing until they hit the chorus part. It probably would dead a dancefloor if not for the intensity of Wheeler's voice and performance. By the time the drums come in, it's unexpected (I've always had trouble trying to blend-mix this in for that reason) but rewarding for its surprise.
The Outkast is different because the hi-hat totally sets the listener up in anticipation for a kick/snare beat that keeps getting delayed and delayed. It's like the group is deliberately fucking with you, knowing what you're waiting for but delaying gratification purposefully. When I've played out the Soul II Soul, often times, dancers aren't sure what's going on. It's a different kind of anticipation and tension being built.
Both are deeeelicious though.
Ha, it took me a few times to come to that realization.
Word. I thought the same thing was happening the first time I heard Mystikal's "Bouncing Back"--I was waiting for drums that never actually showed up. Which kinda made me like the song even more.
:Lighter:
Related... if terracing is absolved, would the Prem see a return of them? Have you been to a match in Berlin/Germany with them? How does it work there?
Mercury Prize:
Alt-J - An Awesome Wave
Django Django - Django Django
Field Music - Plumb
Richard Hawley - Standing at the Sky's Edge
Ben Howard - Every Kingdom
Michael Kiwanuka - Home Again
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love Big Enough?
Sam Lee - Ground of Its Own
The Maccabees - Given to the Wild
Plan B - Ill Manors
Roller Trio - Roller Trio
Jessie Ware - Devotion
Who do I put the money on then?
Hootie Hoo FTW.
Each-way bet on these sounds good to me:
Alt-J - An Awesome Wave
Lianne La Havas - Is Your Love Big Enough?
Jessie Ware - Devotion
I've only heard the last one but it appears to me that there's marketing heat being applied to these. And I am smirking at the L La H title.
That Lianne La Havas lp is a bit weak, suprised it's on the list.
GET CARTER
Seriously
If it's not on the just plain nosey side, I'd bee interested to hear a little bit about the various music related jobs you've had over the years; how you got into the industry in the first place; changes you've seen, over the years, and as you've worked through the industry.
I'm sure you've got some good stories, secret meetings with industrial prison complex lizard people plotting the subjugation of all scousers, that sort of thing.
Also, a question: You mentioned Warp Records earlier on, and to me it seems that, with the exception of one or two small labels or artists, there hasn't been a really strong scene in the North for some time. Am I wrong? It is just London media bias? Is Donk the true British underground?
I have to confess to something of a blind spot as regards the Hollies. I always saw them as more of a singles act, and never really checked their albums prior to that point in the 70s after Allan Clarke rejoined. I don't know this record at all, but I will seek it out ASAP - it's not one I ever hear come up in conversation with those friends of mine who are deep into their 60s/psych/pop.
Led Zeppelin.
Yeah, people in the UK forget they had a few hits Stateside. As I recall, they were spectacularly mismanaged by their dad and went broke just as their popularity in the UK began to slide, which was further compounded by one of the guys having a bit of a Tevin Campbell/George Michael moment. I dunno how they were marketed in the US, but they came out of the gate as more of a pop act in the UK, and never had the same kind of credibility with the soul/r&b crowd. When they tried to reach a more adult audience, it didn't come off.
I once saw Deniece Pearson riding the Tube in London, maybe 20 years ago. I didn't recognise her right away, although I do remember thinking she looked familiar. She also looked hot as fuck - really tall and good-looking. So there I am, sneaking glances at her and trying not to stare when I realise she's noticed me giving her the eye. Rather than screwing me back, as I might have expected her to (or smiling, which would have thrown me for a fucking loop), she actually looked a little embarrassed. Right then I remembered why she looked familiar, and I figured out why she looked embarrassed - their bankruptcy had been quite a big story in the UK tabloids, so she was probably stood there, strap-hanging and thinking, "That guy probably knows I was driving a Lamborghini five years ago and probably knows we went broke, and now he's seen me riding the Tube and thinks I'm a failure..."
I have absolutely no idea. My man Jimmy Brown would probably know - he's a pretty hardcore Moodies head. I'll try and find out.
I always got the impression Ian Anderson felt he was a bit of a prophet-without-honour in the UK. When punk emerged, he seemed to resent the way it sucked up all the critical attention. As a matter of fact, he always seemed more bothered about critics generally than he needed to be. Judging by a radio interview I heard a few months ago, he still seems more than a little bitter that Tull aren't as widely revered in the UK as they are in the US and the rest of Europe (particularly Eastern Europe, where they're really big). Although I liked some of their stuff I was never a huge Tull fan, so I don't know if I'd describe him as a musical genius. I think there's an argument to be made for the way in which he's followed his own path so determinedly. But he does seem a little pompous.
I wouldn't have thought that Wyatt leaving any band he was in would alone be enough to send it in a jazzier direction. Wyatt's a hardcore jazzer at heart, and I reckon the die was cast by the time Third came out anyway. I'm inclined to think that Mike Ratledge and Hugh Hopper were just becoming less interested in conventional song forms whereas if you look at Wyatt's career as a solo performer, you'd say the opposite was true of him. Wyatt's often voiced a fair bit of contempt towards prog-rock as well; he said something in an interview a few years ago about how ridiculous he thought it was to suggest that stuff was more progressive than someone like Monk.
Peace,
Doc.
Specials, no contest.
Bit of a busman's holiday, and dude would normally get paid for dispensing these pearls, but y'know dude's love of the form is so deep he cannot stop himself from giving it away gratis.
And the number of Qs is testament to his standing here.
I doubt there's more than a handful of people worldwide who have the combination of history, horizon, articularity, detailed knowledge, recall, writing skills, insider involvement and willingness to opine that Doc has up in here.
World needs a Mop-style collected works.
Where's 4YG at?