Whitney was also just a little bit too old to really feel the streets IMO. When Def Jam and "new school" of hip-hop started to really make noise in say 84-85 she was 22, her career had already started and she was totally ensconced in that pop world that was bringing her success. Look at this pic of her from 1983:
You can tell that she probably had no idea what was going on "in the skreets". People her age were dismissive of people like me who were 5 or 7 years younger and hip-hop seemed like something they needed to keep at a distance, especially females. Eddie Murphy is another one who is about that age, who never really seemed comfortable embracing hip-hop. By the time rap blew up in the mid 80's he was a superstar and out of touch with that world, that's why he was making records with Rick James instead of Rick Rubin.
Anyway, I think she missed out on hip-hop, and the people who were pitching her songs wouldn't have known about it either. All the other diva types people are mentioning are just a little younger (Janet, Mariah) or were already in the clubs and would have been hearing hip-hop as it was happening (Madonna, Jody Watley, etc). By the 90's she had two choices, look like she was jumping the bandwagon and ask for a Puffy remix, or go the Sade/Anita Baker route and appeal to the older crowd. She did the strange thing and kind of sort of tried to do both, and doing things halfway gets you nowhere. Especially when you are also a crackhead.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Whitney was also just a little bit too old to really feel the streets IMO. When Def Jam and "new school" of hip-hop started to really make noise in say 84-85 she was 22, her career had already started and she was totally ensconced in that pop world that was bringing her success.
You can tell that she probably had no idea what was going on "in the skreets". People her age were dismissive of people like me who were 5 or 7 years younger and hip-hop seemed like something they needed to keep at a distance, especially females. Eddie Murphy is another one who is about that age, who never really seemed comfortable embracing hip-hop. By the time rap blew up in the mid 80's he was a superstar and out of touch with that world, that's why he was making records with Rick James instead of Rick Rubin.
Anyway, I think she missed out on hip-hop, and the people who were pitching her songs wouldn't have known about it either. All the other diva types people are mentioning are just a little younger (Janet, Mariah) or were already in the clubs and would have been hearing hip-hop as it was happening (Madonna, Jody Watley, etc). By the 90's she had two choices, look like she was jumping the bandwagon and ask for a Puffy remix, or go the Sade/Anita Baker route and appeal to the older crowd. She did the strange thing and kind of sort of tried to do both, and doing things halfway gets you nowhere. Especially when you are also a crackhead.
So how did Chaka Khan do a song with Melle Mel before Whitney dropped.
I dont see how Davis fails to see the new market and them lets Alicia Keys make a debut video singing about a thugged boyfriend.
"I Feel For You" isn't a hip-hop song, it isn't even hip-hop influenced. It's a Prince (who is another guy a little to old to feel hip-hop in the 80's) song with a rapper on the hook. And it was on Warner Bros not Arista. Prince, Chaka, and Melle Mel all recorded for Warners or their subsidiaries.
Alicia Keys debuted in 97 or so, by then there's no way you could break a new R&B/Soul/Whatever artist without acknowledging hip-hop in some way. Even Clive Davis could see the writing on the wall. But in 1984? Almost every music biz insider thought rap was a fad, you wouldn't want to tie your brightest new star to something that would be out of style in 6 months.
"I Feel For You" isn't a hip-hop song, it isn't even hip-hop influenced. It's a Prince (who is another guy a little to old to feel hip-hop in the 80's) song with a rapper on the hook. And it was on Warner Bros not Arista. Prince, Chaka, and Melle Mel all recorded for Warners or their subsidiaries.
Alicia Keys debuted in 97 or so, by then there's no way you could break a new R&B/Soul/Whatever artist without acknowledging hip-hop in some way. Even Clive Davis could see the writing on the wall. But in 1984? Almost every music biz insider thought rap was a fad, you wouldn't want to tie your brightest new star to something that would be out of style in 6 months.
I Feel For You has Hip Hop elements. The faux scratching is there.
Its not about making a Str8t up Hip Hop song or wearin Timberlands and becoming Street. I never said that. U can incorporate the elements without losing your original agenda.
She served meat and potatoes for too long and see that the peoples tastes were moving towards more veggies.
By the time she added veggies, no one cared.
The Old folks that thought hip hop was a fad were badly mistaken.
Of course she shouldnt have dabbled in Hip Hoppity shut in 84 but by 96/97 cmon son.
Gladys Knight and The Pips had Breakers in their video in 83. They paid attention to their community.
Arista & Davis didnt care and her game was left to appeal to Soccer moms.
And to say that she was too old in 83 at 19 years old to feel the streets is wierd to me.
She was singing in Mikells as a teen where all the Black Gangsters, Industry dudes ,and local yokels hung out.
No way she was unaware of Run DMC and what was happening. This aint 78 where shit was still below ground.
Dudes, look at most of the major singers & divas & how their career was reinvigorated by House producers & dj's for instance. Look at how Stephanie Mills, Patti Labelle, Evelyn King, Jody Watley, Jocelyn Brown, etc...., all have several House tracks that were made years after their fading from the spotlight, & look at how that has renewed interest in them. Almost all the artists Batmon mentioned in his analysis as a contrast with Whitney have several good songs that stand the test of time & are very club/dancefloor friendly. I feel Whitney doesn't have that. She has ballads which are certainly not for the club/dancefloor.
Whitney had plenty of house remixes. It's my understanding that she was generally well-received by the gay house community.
She served meat and potatoes for too long and see that the peoples tastes were moving towards more veggies.
By the time she added veggies, no one cared.
I guess the root of my argument is she never liked veggies much. She only added them because that's what she thought people wanted. Whit shoulda stayed serving up that Brazilian Churrascaria for the grown and sexy and left the veggies to those that liked them.
She served meat and potatoes for too long and see that the peoples tastes were moving towards more veggies.
By the time she added veggies, no one cared.
I guess the root of my argument is she never liked veggies much. She only added them because that's what she thought people wanted. Whit shoulda stayed serving up that Brazilian Churrascaria for the grown and sexy and left the veggies to those that liked them.
I feel you.
I just feel like her handlers kept her away from expanding her game until it after her heat date.
I rememeber going to DiscoMat or maybe Disco Rama down the block from the Pink Pussy Cat near West 4th. They had a a record area beneath the main store which sold cd and movies. They were one of the hot spots in NYC to get House and Club music.
One of the main dudes there was a Gay Brother that was at Rock N Soul back in the day when they were House dominant until Hip Hop took over their racks around 89. I would see him at Disc-oMat and talk records.
I picked up a Whitney Houston remix and he said " Oh we dont do that here." He was a heavy House dude and what i got from him and from other House dj that i know was that Whitney, Beyonce, Tamia, or whomver R??B house/club mix that were released by the major labels werent preferred by the real heads at their spots.
Whitney was also just a little bit too old to really feel the streets IMO. When Def Jam and "new school" of hip-hop started to really make noise in say 84-85 she was 22, her career had already started and she was totally ensconced in that pop world that was bringing her success.
You can tell that she probably had no idea what was going on "in the skreets". People her age were dismissive of people like me who were 5 or 7 years younger and hip-hop seemed like something they needed to keep at a distance, especially females. Eddie Murphy is another one who is about that age, who never really seemed comfortable embracing hip-hop. By the time rap blew up in the mid 80's he was a superstar and out of touch with that world, that's why he was making records with Rick James instead of Rick Rubin.
Anyway, I think she missed out on hip-hop, and the people who were pitching her songs wouldn't have known about it either. All the other diva types people are mentioning are just a little younger (Janet, Mariah) or were already in the clubs and would have been hearing hip-hop as it was happening (Madonna, Jody Watley, etc). By the 90's she had two choices, look like she was jumping the bandwagon and ask for a Puffy remix, or go the Sade/Anita Baker route and appeal to the older crowd. She did the strange thing and kind of sort of tried to do both, and doing things halfway gets you nowhere. Especially when you are also a crackhead.
So how did Chaka Khan do a song with Melle Mel before Whitney dropped.
I dont see how Davis fails to see the new market and them lets Alicia Keys make a debut video singing about a thugged boyfriend.
Something dont smell right.
Well, here's how it smells to me:
Chaka and Alicia had a bit more "edge" than Whitney. Neither one of them fit molds. They had their own idiosyncratic personalities. That's why they could pull off hanging with the hip-hoppers with a lot more credibility.
Whitney Houston, on the other hand, was just a preppy hitmaker who followed trends. She didn't establish them, like Chaka or Alicia.
If black folks started embracing polka records, then you'd start hearing Whitney with an accordion in the background, regardless of whether it sounded right or not. Of course, judging from Batmon's breakdown, she'd probably jump on the trend a little late in the day, but still...
How many of you over 30 cats had to sing "Greatest Love of All" as part of your elementary school experience?
I used to know a guy in high school who would sing "The Greatest Love Of All" at every assembly and pep rally without fail.
However (and I'm showing my age here), at the time the song was still identified with George Benson, who recorded the song first.
Whitney's version didn't come out until my senior year of high school, as an album cut. By the time it was released as a single, I was a college first-year by then.
I don't see the issue with Whitney's loss of popularity as a particularly 'deep' matter. She traveled the course that most pop singers traveled; she made big dough when her 'thing' was in, and did not when it played out.
Except that when you make it as quickly as Whitney did, people expect you to stay there. And that makes the fall more dramatic.
Whitney didn't start out with mild success and work her way up. She skipped straight to SUPERSTAR the first time out.
Black Folk know that The Greatest Love Of All is a remake.
Even before Whitney, "G.L.O.A." was one of those songs that black people always used to "get the house" in talent shows.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
asstro said:
"I Feel For You" isn't a hip-hop song, it isn't even hip-hop influenced. It's a Prince (who is another guy a little to old to feel hip-hop in the 80's) song with a rapper on the hook. And it was on Warner Bros not Arista. Prince, Chaka, and Melle Mel all recorded for Warners or their subsidiaries.
Alicia Keys debuted in 97 or so, by then there's no way you could break a new R&B/Soul/Whatever artist without acknowledging hip-hop in some way. Even Clive Davis could see the writing on the wall. But in 1984? Almost every music biz insider thought rap was a fad, you wouldn't want to tie your brightest new star to something that would be out of style in 6 months.
It should be pointed out also that Chaka hated what they did to I Feel For You. I read a bunch of interviews with her around the time it was a hit, and she was utterly dismissive of it, saying that the finished version barely resembled the record she thought she'd made. No way did she go to Arif Mardin and say, "I want to make a record with one of these rap kids." More likely he told her, "You need a hit, and this is how you'll get one."
I rememeber going to DiscoMat or maybe Disco Rama down the block from the Pink Pussy Cat near West 4th. They had a a record area beneath the main store which sold cd and movies. They were one of the hot spots in NYC to get House and Club music.
One of the main dudes there was a Gay Brother that was at Rock N Soul back in the day when they were House dominant until Hip Hop took over their racks around 89. I would see him at Disc-oMat and talk records.
I picked up a Whitney Houston remix and he said " Oh we dont do that here." He was a heavy House dude and what i got from him and from other House dj that i know was that Whitney, Beyonce, Tamia, or whomver R??B house/club mix that were released by the major labels werent preferred by the real heads at their spots.
there were (and are) a lot of white label bootleg remixes of the big artists that make noise in the deep house scene. But the major label remixes were usually pretty hi-nrg and confined to the big cheesy clubs. Very different scenes.
Sometime back in the early 2000s my man at Dr. Wax explained the following, which seems obliquely pertinent here:
"Every black person has someone they love who reminds them of Luther, and every black person has someone they can't fucking stand who reminds them of Whitney."
Black Folk know that The Greatest Love Of All is a remake.
Even before Whitney, "G.L.O.A." was one of those songs that black people always used to "get the house" in talent shows.
Yes, that and Alicia Myers "I Want To Thank You" will always equal "fat girl singing at a talent show" to me.
Throw in "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" plus some slow, inspirational number from The Wiz , and you have the Contemporary Talent Show Experience. From Star Search onward.
Black Folk know that The Greatest Love Of All is a remake.
Even before Whitney, "G.L.O.A." was one of those songs that black people always used to "get the house" in talent shows.
Yes, that and Alicia Myers "I Want To Thank You" will always equal "fat girl singing at a talent show" to me.
Throw in "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" plus some slow, inspirational number from The Wiz , and you have the Contemporary Talent Show Experience. From Star Search onward.
@Batmon: you don't see "My Love is Your Love" (complete with Wyclef, aka "the executive producer all in the video") as a blatant attempt to cash in on Lauryn Hill's popularity in the semi-skreets?
Comments
Whitney Houston - Fine by lachula
She did do urban. Just didn't sell a lot of records with it from what I saw at the time.
She shoulda done that 5 years sooner during The Neo-Soul explosion after Erykah,Maxwell, and D'Angelo shifted the landscape.
By 2000 she was like MJ on the Washington Wizards.
You can tell that she probably had no idea what was going on "in the skreets". People her age were dismissive of people like me who were 5 or 7 years younger and hip-hop seemed like something they needed to keep at a distance, especially females. Eddie Murphy is another one who is about that age, who never really seemed comfortable embracing hip-hop. By the time rap blew up in the mid 80's he was a superstar and out of touch with that world, that's why he was making records with Rick James instead of Rick Rubin.
Anyway, I think she missed out on hip-hop, and the people who were pitching her songs wouldn't have known about it either. All the other diva types people are mentioning are just a little younger (Janet, Mariah) or were already in the clubs and would have been hearing hip-hop as it was happening (Madonna, Jody Watley, etc). By the 90's she had two choices, look like she was jumping the bandwagon and ask for a Puffy remix, or go the Sade/Anita Baker route and appeal to the older crowd. She did the strange thing and kind of sort of tried to do both, and doing things halfway gets you nowhere. Especially when you are also a crackhead.
So how did Chaka Khan do a song with Melle Mel before Whitney dropped.
I dont see how Davis fails to see the new market and them lets Alicia Keys make a debut video singing about a thugged boyfriend.
Something dont smell right.
Alicia Keys debuted in 97 or so, by then there's no way you could break a new R&B/Soul/Whatever artist without acknowledging hip-hop in some way. Even Clive Davis could see the writing on the wall. But in 1984? Almost every music biz insider thought rap was a fad, you wouldn't want to tie your brightest new star to something that would be out of style in 6 months.
he definitely didn't feel too old for it in the 90s when he did the NPG thing.
That shit was wilde corny though...
I Feel For You has Hip Hop elements. The faux scratching is there.
Its not about making a Str8t up Hip Hop song or wearin Timberlands and becoming Street. I never said that. U can incorporate the elements without losing your original agenda.
She served meat and potatoes for too long and see that the peoples tastes were moving towards more veggies.
By the time she added veggies, no one cared.
The Old folks that thought hip hop was a fad were badly mistaken.
Of course she shouldnt have dabbled in Hip Hoppity shut in 84 but by 96/97 cmon son.
Gladys Knight and The Pips had Breakers in their video in 83. They paid attention to their community.
Arista & Davis didnt care and her game was left to appeal to Soccer moms.
And to say that she was too old in 83 at 19 years old to feel the streets is wierd to me.
She was singing in Mikells as a teen where all the Black Gangsters, Industry dudes ,and local yokels hung out.
No way she was unaware of Run DMC and what was happening. This aint 78 where shit was still below ground.
Whitney had plenty of house remixes. It's my understanding that she was generally well-received by the gay house community.
I guess the root of my argument is she never liked veggies much. She only added them because that's what she thought people wanted. Whit shoulda stayed serving up that Brazilian Churrascaria for the grown and sexy and left the veggies to those that liked them.
I feel you.
I just feel like her handlers kept her away from expanding her game until it after her heat date.
I rememeber going to DiscoMat or maybe Disco Rama down the block from the Pink Pussy Cat near West 4th. They had a a record area beneath the main store which sold cd and movies. They were one of the hot spots in NYC to get House and Club music.
One of the main dudes there was a Gay Brother that was at Rock N Soul back in the day when they were House dominant until Hip Hop took over their racks around 89. I would see him at Disc-oMat and talk records.
I picked up a Whitney Houston remix and he said " Oh we dont do that here." He was a heavy House dude and what i got from him and from other House dj that i know was that Whitney, Beyonce, Tamia, or whomver R??B house/club mix that were released by the major labels werent preferred by the real heads at their spots.
Well, here's how it smells to me:
Chaka and Alicia had a bit more "edge" than Whitney. Neither one of them fit molds. They had their own idiosyncratic personalities. That's why they could pull off hanging with the hip-hoppers with a lot more credibility.
Whitney Houston, on the other hand, was just a preppy hitmaker who followed trends. She didn't establish them, like Chaka or Alicia.
If black folks started embracing polka records, then you'd start hearing Whitney with an accordion in the background, regardless of whether it sounded right or not. Of course, judging from Batmon's breakdown, she'd probably jump on the trend a little late in the day, but still...
The gay community is usually quite fond of most female divas & singers. It doesn't make her distinct for that reason alone.
Turds imo.
They tried but imo they didn't succeed.
I used to know a guy in high school who would sing "The Greatest Love Of All" at every assembly and pep rally without fail.
However (and I'm showing my age here), at the time the song was still identified with George Benson, who recorded the song first.
Whitney's version didn't come out until my senior year of high school, as an album cut. By the time it was released as a single, I was a college first-year by then.
Except that when you make it as quickly as Whitney did, people expect you to stay there. And that makes the fall more dramatic.
Whitney didn't start out with mild success and work her way up. She skipped straight to SUPERSTAR the first time out.
Even before Whitney, "G.L.O.A." was one of those songs that black people always used to "get the house" in talent shows.
It should be pointed out also that Chaka hated what they did to I Feel For You. I read a bunch of interviews with her around the time it was a hit, and she was utterly dismissive of it, saying that the finished version barely resembled the record she thought she'd made. No way did she go to Arif Mardin and say, "I want to make a record with one of these rap kids." More likely he told her, "You need a hit, and this is how you'll get one."
there were (and are) a lot of white label bootleg remixes of the big artists that make noise in the deep house scene. But the major label remixes were usually pretty hi-nrg and confined to the big cheesy clubs. Very different scenes.
this one is pretty good, by DJ Pope outta b-more
although this cover smashes it, imo
Yes, that and Alicia Myers "I Want To Thank You" will always equal "fat girl singing at a talent show" to me.
"Every black person has someone they love who reminds them of Luther, and every black person has someone they can't fucking stand who reminds them of Whitney."
Throw in "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" plus some slow, inspirational number from The Wiz , and you have the Contemporary Talent Show Experience. From Star Search onward.
Throw in "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" plus some slow, inspirational number from The Wiz , and you have the Contemporary Talent Show Experience. From Star Search onward.
Sorry if you addressed this earlier.