DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
It seems like a weird notion though: popular culture is so accelerated that there's no more room/time for music criticizing society or economics/politics specifically.
There's plenty of room for it, it's just that not enough people are paying attention, or (probably closer to the truth) they're just not interested. Only this year, Saigon (finally) put out a solid album that dealt thoughtfully and coherently with issues of politics, society, modern culture and life at the shittier end of the economic scale that wasn't double-dipped in Infowars tin-foil-hat bullshit or complaints about the music industry, and what happened?
It seems like a weird notion though: popular culture is so accelerated that there's no more room/time for music criticizing society or economics/politics specifically.
There's plenty of room for it, it's just that not enough people are paying attention, or (probably closer to the truth) they're just not interested. Only this year, Saigon (finally) put out a solid album that dealt thoughtfully and coherently with issues of politics, society, modern culture and life at the shittier end of the economic scale that wasn't double-dipped in Infowars tin-foil-hat bullshit or complaints about the music industry, and what happened?
Saigon the rapper? Ill give it a listen, I guess young audiences currently just don't give a shit about politics/re: music, and socially there's not much left to protest or achieve - which fits with Gagas sexual shock tactic sound actually being pretty much inoffensive to parents/authority figures. Its purely a performance video gimmick with her.
It seems like a weird notion though: popular culture is so accelerated that there's no more room/time for music criticizing society or economics/politics specifically.
There's plenty of room for it, it's just that not enough people are paying attention, or (probably closer to the truth) they're just not interested. Only this year, Saigon (finally) put out a solid album that dealt thoughtfully and coherently with issues of politics, society, modern culture and life at the shittier end of the economic scale that wasn't double-dipped in Infowars tin-foil-hat bullshit or complaints about the music industry, and what happened?
I guess young audiences currently just don't give a shit about politics/re: music, and socially there's not much left to protest or achieve
If someone came along that made very good "political" music, kids will gravitate.
Shit cant be mediocre and we get mad that no one is hyping the shit up.
since the beginning of pop music, how many thousands of artists have their been? Out of those thousands and thousands of artists how many had overtly political songs, made it point to be a tool for enlightenment and were able to cast a large enough net to get hundreds of thousands of listeners and supporters? maybe 10? a dozen perhaps? My point is, if ti happens it will happen, I don't think the industry is major hurdle here. It has never been an historically vibrant part of the music industry...one or 2 artists a decade isn't what makes a musical revolution.
since the beginning of pop music, how many thousands of artists have their been? Out of those thousands and thousands of artists how many had overtly political songs, made it point to be a tool for enlightenment and were able to cast a large enough net to get hundreds of thousands of listeners and supporters? maybe 10? a dozen perhaps? My point is, if ti happens it will happen, I don't think the industry is major hurdle here. It has never been an historically vibrant part of the music industry...one or 2 artists a decade isn't what makes a musical revolution.
I agree with the Elton John mention, but - and I don't want to derail - but a woman who is willing to look 'ugly' in 2011 kinda trumps a dude in funny sunglasses in 1973.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
I don't even disagree and my (seemingly) hard-on for Gaga is not her style/fashion statement, but a message/movement based on "born this way" and her willingness to look like a the wrong side of the make-up counter. Again, I don't want to derail this into making it about the sexes, but record labels don't know what to with female artists who aren't wholesome or textbook sexy. What she's doing is note-worthy in this conversation imo.
I agree with the Elton John mention, but - and I don't want to derail - but a woman who is willing to look 'ugly' in 2011 kinda trumps a dude in funny sunglasses in 1973.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
I agree with the Elton John mention, but - and I don't want to derail - but a woman who is willing to look 'ugly' in 2011 kinda trumps a dude in funny sunglasses in 1973.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
Elton established himself as a legit artist prior to going full out Liberace meets Warhol.
So the transition was easier than if he had just started that outrageously
I agree with the Elton John mention, but - and I don't want to derail - but a woman who is willing to look 'ugly' in 2011 kinda trumps a dude in funny sunglasses in 1973.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
Elton established himself as a legit artist prior to going full out Liberace meets Warhol.
So the transition was easier than if he had just started that outrageously
True enough. Also true that Liberace was even earlier.
On the other hand it could be argued that Lady Gaga's rapid rise to stardom was enabled by her outrageous outfits. Different times.
On the other hand it could be argued that Lady Gaga's rapid rise to stardom was enabled by her outrageous outfits.
...And that her huge appeal (longevity to be seen) is due to promoting the celebration/acceptance of the unique beauty in each person - outrageous or not.
Waving one's freak flag just doesn't resonate with everyone.
(I am about done with my Gaga lovefest lol I'm not even a fan!)
I think part of the issue is that a lot of what can be said in 3 minutes or so, about issues that will strike a chord with a large audience has already been said in one form or another.
These days there seems to be more focus on groups who were previously held on the margins, making inroads into the establishment. Which why you get people like Gaga saying "just be a queen" whilst being one of the biggest selling mainstream recording artists around. Or Kanye and Jay Z talking about "If you escaped what I've escaped, you'd be Paris getting fucked up too". These aren't anything like as militant a message as what we've had in the past but they're still political statements in their own way.
Will there ever be anything seriously controversial and deep with some reach out there ever again?
Reach being the key word here.
"Reach" needed an industry. Its a new game now.
this is pretty much the answer to the original quesiton, which i understood as why isnt there a ubiquitous relevant pop-culture voice? As information becomes more easily exchangeable and transmittable to everyone, it takes million dollar budgets to separate signal from noise.
that said, there's probably shit tons of music that fits the description except for one criteria, failing to reach pop culture status.
i'll offer this but its not pop culture either:
b/w
[shameless self plug]a rapper im workin with will have a song out in a few days that basically voices the kind of thing asked about as well. i'll post it up for everyone when its officially released[/plug]
I agree with the Elton John mention, but - and I don't want to derail - but a woman who is willing to look 'ugly' in 2011 kinda trumps a dude in funny sunglasses in 1973.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
Elton established himself as a legit artist prior to going full out Liberace meets Warhol.
So the transition was easier than if he had just started that outrageously
True enough. Also true that Liberace was even earlier.
On the other hand it could be argued that Lady Gaga's rapid rise to stardom was enabled by her outrageous outfits. Different times.
I was going to say that John was hardly the first gender ambiguous rocker, but I figured all you all didn't need to be reminded of Little Richard, Bobby Marchan, Esquirta and so forth.
Long tradition.
I was going to say that John was hardly the first gender ambiguous rocker, but I figured all you all didn't need to be reminded of Little Richard, Bobby Marchan, Esquirta and so forth.
Long tradition.
The difference is that none of the people you mention were international superstars.
I was going to say that John was hardly the first gender ambiguous rocker, but I figured all you all didn't need to be reminded of Little Richard, Bobby Marchan, Esquirta and so forth.
Long tradition.
The difference is that none of the people you mention were international superstars.
little richard was never internationally famous?
as far as bobby marchan goes, i would make the even stronger point that even within the limited community in which he was known (new orleans, especially its black community), dressing like a woman wasn't all that subversive. new orleans had a long history of playing dress up before the '50s. patsy vidalia wasn't exactly the only (wo)man in town.
also, in response to the original question about what music out there fits the OP's criteria today, i know the strut hates them, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it seems like Das Racist fits the criteria pretty precisely.
they have wide reach, they're heavily anti-corporate, and controversial. it's also drenched in cynicism though, and a different shade of brown from your earthy protest song of yore.
locally, there's also this cat who's probably the most popular rapper in town:
also, in response to the original question about what music out there fits the OP's criteria today, i know the strut hates them, buuuuuuuuuuuuut it seems like Das Racist fits the criteria pretty precisely.
they have wide reach, they're heavily anti-corporate, and controversial. it's also drenched in cynicism though, and a different shade of brown from your earthy protest song of yore.
i kind of read their work as trying but failing to be anti-corporate while accidentally subverting their own purpose. im strictly speaking of pizza hut taco bell, but its a 3 minute commcercial for the franchise. i couldnt tell you how many stories ive overheard that began with "so i was in pizza hut taco bell the other and [insert lyrics to song + a weed joke]"
although i guess that track isnt written for "them"
i dont know if empircal field research connotes a /end to their efforts though.
I was going to say that John was hardly the first gender ambiguous rocker, but I figured all you all didn't need to be reminded of Little Richard, Bobby Marchan, Esquirta and so forth.
Long tradition.
The difference is that none of the people you mention were international superstars.
little richard was never internationally famous?
On the level of Elton John? No, not even close.
I would bet that EJ had a number of singles that each outsold the entire Little Richard catalog.
I feel this song is very important and relevant to this discussion, yet I've posted about it twice in another thread and was completely ignored both times. THIS is the topic hardly any other rapper - if any - will discuss, yet it receives no mention in an article about social-minded Hip Hop. Laaaaame. Dude is hardly beneath the radar nor "too underground" for this to be simply overlooked either. Oh well...I guess comparing yourself to Obama and cursing out your baby mama in a one-sided story suffices for hard-hitting, "radical" topics these days. "B-b-but don't you understand?? They're rapping about money and cars 'cause they used rap music to beat the system and trappings of, uhhh, the trap!" Gettheyouknowwhatouttaherewiththatyouknowwhat.
Im not feeling Das Racist - they're too ironic/hipster for me personally - all that beardy funny fashion arched eyebrow shit makes it hard for me to take anything they do seriously - like SR said - theyre subverting their own purpose.
That article in the NYTimes is puzzling - no offense to anyone but i cant find any real support in the examples given for the argument being put forth to have any weight at all. A Kendrick Lamar tune pining for mid nineties LA indie rap or Common's new release are indicators that social minded rap is coming back? What?
Also the socially conscious / sensitive lyrics being referenced in some of the posts above kind of pale in comparison to the straight up militant aggression in say PE's political content -so while I agree there are plenty of examples of that out there, its not rattling any cages or making any waves imo.
I also feel that rap songs making the case for accepting gay people are really far behind the curve of societies / popular cultures now wide acceptance of gay people. It took rap so long to be in tune with society at large in that department - makes these kind of tunes feel like crocodile tears within the genre. But although It doesn't do much for me im not against it at all or trying to take anything away from any appreciation for that Murs track.
Im not feeling Das Racist - they're too ironic/hipster for me personally - all that beardy funny fashion arched eyebrow shit makes it hard for me to take anything they do seriously - like SR said - theyre subverting their own purpose.
That article in the NYTimes is puzzling - no offense to anyone but i cant find any real support in the examples given for the argument being put forth to have any weight at all. A Kendrick Lamar tune pining for mid nineties LA indie rap or Common's new release are indicators that social minded rap is coming back? What?
Also the socially conscious / sensitive lyrics being referenced in some of the posts above kind of pale in comparison to the straight up militant aggression in say PE's political content -so while I agree there are plenty of examples of that out there, its not rattling any cages or making any waves imo.
I also feel that rap songs making the case for accepting gay people are really far behind the curve of societies / popular cultures now wide acceptance of gay people. It took rap so long to be in tune with society at large in that department - makes these kind of tunes feel like crocodile tears within the genre. But although It doesn't do much for me im not against it at all or trying to take anything away from any appreciation for that Murs track.
Have you listened to Kendrick Lamar at all? And trust me this sin't a plan to attack you on any level, just an honest question. Please listen to "Keisha's Song" off of Section 80 and tell me dude isn't gonna be important to hip hop.
Stax, i think it does read like you're discrediting the Murs track Herm posted. It doesn't matter that pop culture has been accepting gay people for years in hollywood, cause we are talking about us (hip hop/rap dudes) and as a culture/people/whatever hip hop has never stepped forward to address this topic in a mature manner, In my eyes it's incredibly brave on Murs part to have made that song. I played it for my best friend and he just said "no comment", when i provoked him more he said "I can't listen to some faggot love song". This same dude watched a Danny Brown video i posted on FB and said "Dude looks,like he swallows dicks" and said he would never listen to anyone who "looked like that". I asked him "What if Pharoahe Monch (his favorite rapper) were gay?" he said he couldn't listen to him if that were the case.
Alot of the "hip hop" people i hang out with (esp. underground hip hop fans) being gay is really really uncool, the whole tight jean thing, the no homo thing, all that makes hip hop/rap look really ignorant, So Murs making that track in my eyes is honestly a huge step forward. I've posted it on my FB twice and gotten 0 responses each time. Dudes don't wanna hear that shit, and it's sad.
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There's plenty of room for it, it's just that not enough people are paying attention, or (probably closer to the truth) they're just not interested. Only this year, Saigon (finally) put out a solid album that dealt thoughtfully and coherently with issues of politics, society, modern culture and life at the shittier end of the economic scale that wasn't double-dipped in Infowars tin-foil-hat bullshit or complaints about the music industry, and what happened?
Saigon the rapper? Ill give it a listen, I guess young audiences currently just don't give a shit about politics/re: music, and socially there's not much left to protest or achieve - which fits with Gagas sexual shock tactic sound actually being pretty much inoffensive to parents/authority figures. Its purely a performance video gimmick with her.
If someone came along that made very good "political" music, kids will gravitate.
Shit cant be mediocre and we get mad that no one is hyping the shit up.
I know it's hard to imagine today, but Elton John's feminized/androgynous persona was a lot more cutting edge back then than Lady Gaga's over the top couture is now.
Basically Lady Gaga's image is only a fashion statement - Elton John was really the first male superstar to embody a gender-ambiguous image, as well as letting the world know he was gay (without coming out and saying it).
I know people will mention Bowie and Queen, but Elton John was bigger than both of them put together (almost) and was years earlier than Queen.
Elton established himself as a legit artist prior to going full out Liberace meets Warhol.
So the transition was easier than if he had just started that outrageously
True enough. Also true that Liberace was even earlier.
On the other hand it could be argued that Lady Gaga's rapid rise to stardom was enabled by her outrageous outfits. Different times.
...And that her huge appeal (longevity to be seen) is due to promoting the celebration/acceptance of the unique beauty in each person - outrageous or not.
Waving one's freak flag just doesn't resonate with everyone.
(I am about done with my Gaga lovefest lol I'm not even a fan!)
These days there seems to be more focus on groups who were previously held on the margins, making inroads into the establishment. Which why you get people like Gaga saying "just be a queen" whilst being one of the biggest selling mainstream recording artists around. Or Kanye and Jay Z talking about "If you escaped what I've escaped, you'd be Paris getting fucked up too". These aren't anything like as militant a message as what we've had in the past but they're still political statements in their own way.
this is pretty much the answer to the original quesiton, which i understood as why isnt there a ubiquitous relevant pop-culture voice? As information becomes more easily exchangeable and transmittable to everyone, it takes million dollar budgets to separate signal from noise.
that said, there's probably shit tons of music that fits the description except for one criteria, failing to reach pop culture status.
i'll offer this but its not pop culture either:
b/w
[shameless self plug]a rapper im workin with will have a song out in a few days that basically voices the kind of thing asked about as well. i'll post it up for everyone when its officially released[/plug]
Apparently this is Elton John on piano.
I was going to say that John was hardly the first gender ambiguous rocker, but I figured all you all didn't need to be reminded of Little Richard, Bobby Marchan, Esquirta and so forth.
Long tradition.
The difference is that none of the people you mention were international superstars.
there you go Stax / SS
Edit: not sure why only 1:15 of the track is posted... reaching out to the dudes over there to figure this out.
Seriously? Dude sounds like he's channelling Reasonable Doubt era Jay-Z with none of the charisma.
And saying "I advise record labels to start the bidding war" pretty much disqualifies you from being counterculture.
funny, i used to have an analogous criticism about Stravinsky's early works, or insert any artist really for that matter.
i just did the edit for the beat homey, but thanks for the feedback.
little richard was never internationally famous?
as far as bobby marchan goes, i would make the even stronger point that even within the limited community in which he was known (new orleans, especially its black community), dressing like a woman wasn't all that subversive. new orleans had a long history of playing dress up before the '50s. patsy vidalia wasn't exactly the only (wo)man in town.
they have wide reach, they're heavily anti-corporate, and controversial. it's also drenched in cynicism though, and a different shade of brown from your earthy protest song of yore.
locally, there's also this cat who's probably the most popular rapper in town:
oh, and just saw odub post this on facebook or something: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/arts/music/social-minded-hip-hop-makes-a-comeback.html?_r=3&ref=music
i kind of read their work as trying but failing to be anti-corporate while accidentally subverting their own purpose. im strictly speaking of pizza hut taco bell, but its a 3 minute commcercial for the franchise. i couldnt tell you how many stories ive overheard that began with "so i was in pizza hut taco bell the other and [insert lyrics to song + a weed joke]"
although i guess that track isnt written for "them"
i dont know if empircal field research connotes a /end to their efforts though.
On the level of Elton John? No, not even close.
I would bet that EJ had a number of singles that each outsold the entire Little Richard catalog.
I feel this song is very important and relevant to this discussion, yet I've posted about it twice in another thread and was completely ignored both times. THIS is the topic hardly any other rapper - if any - will discuss, yet it receives no mention in an article about social-minded Hip Hop. Laaaaame. Dude is hardly beneath the radar nor "too underground" for this to be simply overlooked either. Oh well...I guess comparing yourself to Obama and cursing out your baby mama in a one-sided story suffices for hard-hitting, "radical" topics these days. "B-b-but don't you understand?? They're rapping about money and cars 'cause they used rap music to beat the system and trappings of, uhhh, the trap!" Gettheyouknowwhatouttaherewiththatyouknowwhat.
Not mad doggie, just disappointed.
Im not feeling Das Racist - they're too ironic/hipster for me personally - all that beardy funny fashion arched eyebrow shit makes it hard for me to take anything they do seriously - like SR said - theyre subverting their own purpose.
That article in the NYTimes is puzzling - no offense to anyone but i cant find any real support in the examples given for the argument being put forth to have any weight at all. A Kendrick Lamar tune pining for mid nineties LA indie rap or Common's new release are indicators that social minded rap is coming back? What?
Also the socially conscious / sensitive lyrics being referenced in some of the posts above kind of pale in comparison to the straight up militant aggression in say PE's political content -so while I agree there are plenty of examples of that out there, its not rattling any cages or making any waves imo.
I also feel that rap songs making the case for accepting gay people are really far behind the curve of societies / popular cultures now wide acceptance of gay people. It took rap so long to be in tune with society at large in that department - makes these kind of tunes feel like crocodile tears within the genre. But although It doesn't do much for me im not against it at all or trying to take anything away from any appreciation for that Murs track.
Have you listened to Kendrick Lamar at all? And trust me this sin't a plan to attack you on any level, just an honest question. Please listen to "Keisha's Song" off of Section 80 and tell me dude isn't gonna be important to hip hop.
Alot of the "hip hop" people i hang out with (esp. underground hip hop fans) being gay is really really uncool, the whole tight jean thing, the no homo thing, all that makes hip hop/rap look really ignorant, So Murs making that track in my eyes is honestly a huge step forward. I've posted it on my FB twice and gotten 0 responses each time. Dudes don't wanna hear that shit, and it's sad.