I'm seriously not trying to come off as a dick here. I honestly would like people to add onto my discussion.
- diego
Friend, you say you are looking to have a conversation with people about an idea you have formed around music. But as soon as people enter the conversation with ideas that oppose yours, you shut down and become defensive.
Be open to criticism.
With respect to your ideas, I will reiterate what's already been said: I don't think there is a grand unified theory on music that would tie everything together so coherently such that something as complex as musical genres, like samba and blues, would equal each other. It could be that I misread your post, so please feel free to disagree and post some examples that clarify your ideas.
Friend, you say you are looking to have a conversation with people about an idea you have formed around music. But as soon as people enter the conversation with ideas that oppose yours, you shut down and become defensive.
Be open to criticism.
With respect to your ideas, I will reiterate what's already been said: I don't think there is a grand unified theory on music that would tie everything together so coherently such that something as complex as musical genres, like samba and blues, would equal each other. It could be that I misread your post, so please feel free to disagree and post some examples that clarify your ideas.
Kindly,
parallax
Thank you Parallax. Advice taken.
By all means criticize me and my theories all you like. I'm not trolling my own thread.
I am just trying to open the door for discussion on a few topics that I've read about, and I feel are worth discussing further. I'm not looking to create a grand unified theory I would just like to hear people's differing opinions on some of my personal conclusions to gain some perspective.
someone finally makes a music thread on Soulstrut and dudes get mad. classique.
:oh_my:
I don't think we're "mad." It seems that these music theories are based on very little than hunch and gut instinct. As a Latin American historian, I think it's common for people to want to say their "this" is like our "that." It's problematic, and I personally find it misguided and counterproductive. Brazil has a rich and deep culture of their OWN, beginning from Portuguese colonization onward, therefore constructing a unique and rich musical tradition of their very own, that is brewed in their own colonization and national development. Brazil's slavery history is incredibly different from America's. "Historical imperialism" creates blinders. I would suggest reading some history books about Brazilian slavery, emancipation, and books on things like the batucada rhythm and its origins, candomble and capoeira to better understand samba.
Friend, you say you are looking to have a conversation with people about an idea you have formed around music. But as soon as people enter the conversation with ideas that oppose yours, you shut down and become defensive.
Be open to criticism.
With respect to your ideas, I will reiterate what's already been said: I don't think there is a grand unified theory on music that would tie everything together so coherently such that something as complex as musical genres, like samba and blues, would equal each other. It could be that I misread your post, so please feel free to disagree and post some examples that clarify your ideas.
Kindly,
parallax
By all means criticize me and my theories all you like. I'm not trolling my own thread.
I am just trying to open the door for discussion on a few topics that I've read about, and I feel are worth discussing further. I'm not looking to create a grand unified theory I would just like to hear people's differing opinions on some of my personal conclusions to gain some perspective.
- spidey
All kinds of people trying to get this thread rolling and being ignored by you! What do you say to the opinion that the Blues/Samba comparison is reductionist for example? I'm not hatin I really want to understand how your point of view. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a reasonable response to this particular criticism would do a great deal towards validation of this entire thread. I'm being completely sincere.
As a Latin American historian, I think it's common for people to want to say their "this" is like our "that." It's problematic, and I personally find it misguided and counterproductive. Brazil has a rich and deep culture of their OWN, beginning from Portuguese colonization onward, therefore constructing a unique and rich musical tradition of their very own, that is brewed in their own colonization and national development. Brazil's slavery history is incredibly different from America's. "Historical imperialism" creates blinders. I would suggest reading some history books about Brazilian slavery, emancipation, and books on things like the batucada rhythm and its origins, candomble and capoeira to better understand samba.
I completely agree with you NON, because the culture, artists, and their lifestyles that make up the music is just as interesting and important in it's own uniqueness. The individual histories of Robert Johnson, Leadbelly, and Bessie Smith reveals so much insight in defining the sound of The Blues, and understanding into the culture as a whole.
I remember clearly a couple months ago I was having a conversation with my friend Juka (singer/songwriter from Sao Paulo). He was explaining to me how much his band loves to play Dixieland Jazz, because they are students of Pixinguinha. A very important musician I knew very little about, and in his deep baritone voice Juka laughed at me and said, "Of course you don't know this you are American. Every Brazillian knows this. Americans don't know these things. Don't care!"
In my original post where I stated, "Samba is equal to the blues in Brazilian culture." I fully understand and agree that it's a ludicrous statement in that form, but it's merely a comparison. Just a different way to look at it, and the shortest way I could think of to write an understanding of a big insight I had.
Being a black American, it was incredibly fascinating for me to realize this, because the music sounds entirely different. Until it was explained to me I honestly would have never made the connecton. I saw a great documentary that goes a little into the Macumba and features Gilberto Gil, and Milton Nascimiento.
The Spirit of Samba - The Black Music of Brazil
I have this documentary and I'm willing to share it if anyone is interested in understanding more.
are u sayin that the slaves in America and Brazil have a MUSICAL connection because they both came from the same continent? And even if they developed their own sounds there is a connection that can be heard in the music itself and not just based on similiar skin tones?
finelikewine"ONCE UPON A TIME, I HAD A VINYL." http://www.discogs.com/user/permabulker 1,416 Posts
SPlDEY said:
The_Non said:
As a Latin American historian, I think it's common for people to want to say their "this" is like our "that." It's problematic, and I personally find it misguided and counterproductive. Brazil has a rich and deep culture of their OWN, beginning from Portuguese colonization onward, therefore constructing a unique and rich musical tradition of their very own, that is brewed in their own colonization and national development. Brazil's slavery history is incredibly different from America's. "Historical imperialism" creates blinders. I would suggest reading some history books about Brazilian slavery, emancipation, and books on things like the batucada rhythm and its origins, candomble and capoeira to better understand samba.
I completely agree with you NON, because the culture, artists, and their lifestyles that make up the music is just as interesting and important in it's own uniqueness. The individual histories of Robert Johnson, Leadbelly, and Bessie Smith reveals so much insight in defining the sound of The Blues, and understanding into the culture as a whole.
I remember clearly a couple months ago I was having a conversation with my friend Juka (singer/songwriter from Sao Paulo). He was explaining to me how much his band loves to play Dixieland Jazz, because they are students of Pixinguinha. A very important musician I knew very little about, and in his deep baritone voice Juka laughed at me and said, "Of course you don't know this you are American. Every Brazillian knows this. Americans don't know these things. Don't care!"
In my original post where I stated, "Samba is equal to the blues in Brazilian culture." I fully understand and agree that it's a ludicrous statement in that form, but it's merely a comparison. Just a different way to look at it, and the shortest way I could think of to write an understanding of a big insight I had.
Being a black American, it was incredibly fascinating for me to realize this, because the music sounds entirely different. Until it was explained to me I honestly would have never made the connecton. I saw a great documentary that goes a little into the Macumba and features Gilberto Gil, and Milton Nascimiento.
The Spirit of Samba - The Black Music of Brazil
I have this documentary and I'm willing to share it if anyone is interested in understanding more.
- Diego
I'm very interested in seeing this docu. Please do share!
Some of your thoughts are rather interesting and I would love to chat about them and have a few beer with you .
Unfortunatly I'm not a native english speaker and it would be really tiresome for me trying to express more complex points
in written form, that's whay I will stay out of this thread.
These are well worth a watch. He brakes down 'How music works' across genres and history. They cover the basics, but hopefully offer enough insight to keep the more informed interested.
& yes dude looks like a cherub. you must deal.
A cherub, right, well thank you Okem. I've already seen those videos, and I'm a musician with a very good understanding of "HOW MUSIC WORKS".
- spidey
I'd like to apologize again for my misunderstanding Okem, and add that those Youtube videos you posted are an incredible resource. For some of the other strutters who are interested in teaching themselves more about music.
All kinds of people trying to get this thread rolling and being ignored by you! What do you say to the opinion that the Blues/Samba comparison is reductionist for example? I'm not hatin I really want to understand how your point of view. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a reasonable response to this particular criticism would do a great deal towards validation of this entire thread. I'm being completely sincere.
Sure,
Reductionism is often dismissed as oversimplification, but I feel that there are many different type of thinkers, and many different roads that lead to similar paths. In my field of work (self taught computer engineering) simplifying and understanding the history of a subject can help you to form the basis of understanding the whole of complicated systems.
I think that Big picture thinking can be a great way to introduce an uninformed person into very complicated subjects as long as you are willing to go beyond the initial simplification and show the evidence that helped you formed your opinions, theories and conclusions. I would love to see great examples of a holistic approach into musical studies that don't bore me to tears.
I've spent very little time in a classroom (obviously) that have ever touched on subjects I was actually interested in. However I am open, and am excited to learn as much as possible from anyone. I think we shouldn't take for granted the collective knowledge we share on this website. If anything this message board is a brilliant place to gain perspectives from all around the world.
About the sound qualities dieing/changing in the eighties i think that changing is the appropriate answer. More than enough soulful music was recorded in the eighties and onwards! Drum machines and synths ('cold') not sounding soulful ('warm') was intended because considered modern at the time.
Reconsidering, maybe musicians just liked the new stuff, trying new sounds?
b/w
Then again what do i know, i'm an amateur as well, fck it.
Absolutely man, you have a very valid point there Leon.. It absolutely has to do with the stylistic choices of the artists too. I'm not trying to dismiss that by all means. The popular sound started changing, and the new technologies gave a lot of artists the capabilities to sound more like a "Michael Jackson record" or a "Prince Record."
This adds onto my other theory of how Mainstream sensibilities were being changed by what artists and record companies thought audiences wanted to hear. Also what technology was available at the time.
For me the greatest change in recording studios approach in the 90's came with the birth of the ADAT machine. This was the truly the birth of the home studio as we know it today.
For me a gigantic example in the difference in recording studio approaches in the 80's can be heard from OFF THE WALL to BAD. When Bruce Swedien went from using 1/2 inch tape to working with digital consoles in Westlake.
are u sayin that the slaves in America and Brazil have a MUSICAL connection because they both came from the same continent? And even if they developed their own sounds there is a connection that can be heard in the music itself and not just based on similiar skin tones?
Regarding the first question.
Yes, Samba and Blues have roots in traditional African spiritual music brought by slaves. Of course this answer is still vague because each different tribe and country in Africa had many different practices of religion, and highly different styles of singing music.
and to the second one:
I think anyone would be hard pressed to find Early blues music that sounds like Samba or vice versa. It has a lot to do with how the slaves in Brazil were able to keep there religions (Candomble, Macumba, Yoruba) and African culture when they arrived in the new country. Whereas the American slaves were not allowed to keep there religions, or even be educated. I'm sure there is alot to say about the slaves adapting to the changing of the languages, and not being educated. Also the individual artists who specifically helped shape the sound of the newly formed genres of music.
I think lyrically though the concepts of Saudade and importance of God & religion play a key role in connecting the genres.
I'm very interested in seeing this docu. Please do share!
Some of your thoughts are rather interesting and I would love to chat about them and have a few beer with you .
Unfortunatly I'm not a native english speaker and it would be really tiresome for me trying to express more complex points
in written form, that's whay I will stay out of this thread.
Thanks Finelikewine,
I'll send you a PM when I have a bit more time at the computer. What is your first language?
I like your challenges to the accepted view.
Galileo and them did similarly, and were derided by the ignant and those with something to protect.
On the other hand, David Icke and them also pulled that trick, and they are obviously out of their fucking minds.
Anyways there's not enough of it on this board without the waaambulance brigade getting their panties bunched.
Let me add to your list of conjectures with one that may be viewed as heresy hereabouts.
By draining off all the fake emotions, and brutally stripping out the musical masturbation that usually passes for a solo, and then concentrating on pro-grade musicianship within a disciplined song structure and time length, library and lounge music within the sphere of soul/jazz/funk represents the acme, the high water mark, the very pinnacle of man's achievement in the art form of music.
Time will tell if this is more Icke than G-Leo, but I stand by it.
By draining off all the fake emotions, and brutally stripping out the musical masturbation that usually passes for a solo, and then concentrating on pro-grade musicianship within a disciplined song structure and time length, library and lounge music within the sphere of soul/jazz/funk represents the acme, the high water mark, the very pinnacle of man's achievement in the art form of music.
They are almost all cliches that have been repeated a hundred times.
Horseleech, do you make music of any kind?
- Diego
I played in various bands/situations for about 25 years and now mostly noodle around at home.
I don't mean to be insulting, but you asked for opinions on a subject that matters a lot to people here, and you are going to get them. And honestly, you said you wanted to discuss them, but it doesn't seem like you do.
When you open a door, you have to be prepared for what might come through.
Comments
Friend, you say you are looking to have a conversation with people about an idea you have formed around music. But as soon as people enter the conversation with ideas that oppose yours, you shut down and become defensive.
Be open to criticism.
With respect to your ideas, I will reiterate what's already been said: I don't think there is a grand unified theory on music that would tie everything together so coherently such that something as complex as musical genres, like samba and blues, would equal each other. It could be that I misread your post, so please feel free to disagree and post some examples that clarify your ideas.
Kindly,
parallax
:oh_my:
Thank you Parallax. Advice taken.
By all means criticize me and my theories all you like. I'm not trolling my own thread.
I am just trying to open the door for discussion on a few topics that I've read about, and I feel are worth discussing further. I'm not looking to create a grand unified theory I would just like to hear people's differing opinions on some of my personal conclusions to gain some perspective.
- spidey
I don't think we're "mad." It seems that these music theories are based on very little than hunch and gut instinct. As a Latin American historian, I think it's common for people to want to say their "this" is like our "that." It's problematic, and I personally find it misguided and counterproductive. Brazil has a rich and deep culture of their OWN, beginning from Portuguese colonization onward, therefore constructing a unique and rich musical tradition of their very own, that is brewed in their own colonization and national development. Brazil's slavery history is incredibly different from America's. "Historical imperialism" creates blinders. I would suggest reading some history books about Brazilian slavery, emancipation, and books on things like the batucada rhythm and its origins, candomble and capoeira to better understand samba.
All kinds of people trying to get this thread rolling and being ignored by you! What do you say to the opinion that the Blues/Samba comparison is reductionist for example? I'm not hatin I really want to understand how your point of view. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that a reasonable response to this particular criticism would do a great deal towards validation of this entire thread. I'm being completely sincere.
I completely agree with you NON, because the culture, artists, and their lifestyles that make up the music is just as interesting and important in it's own uniqueness. The individual histories of Robert Johnson, Leadbelly, and Bessie Smith reveals so much insight in defining the sound of The Blues, and understanding into the culture as a whole.
I remember clearly a couple months ago I was having a conversation with my friend Juka (singer/songwriter from Sao Paulo). He was explaining to me how much his band loves to play Dixieland Jazz, because they are students of Pixinguinha. A very important musician I knew very little about, and in his deep baritone voice Juka laughed at me and said, "Of course you don't know this you are American. Every Brazillian knows this. Americans don't know these things. Don't care!"
In my original post where I stated, "Samba is equal to the blues in Brazilian culture." I fully understand and agree that it's a ludicrous statement in that form, but it's merely a comparison. Just a different way to look at it, and the shortest way I could think of to write an understanding of a big insight I had.
Being a black American, it was incredibly fascinating for me to realize this, because the music sounds entirely different. Until it was explained to me I honestly would have never made the connecton. I saw a great documentary that goes a little into the Macumba and features Gilberto Gil, and Milton Nascimiento.
The Spirit of Samba - The Black Music of Brazil
I have this documentary and I'm willing to share it if anyone is interested in understanding more.
- Diego
I'm very interested in seeing this docu. Please do share!
Some of your thoughts are rather interesting and I would love to chat about them and have a few beer with you .
Unfortunatly I'm not a native english speaker and it would be really tiresome for me trying to express more complex points
in written form, that's whay I will stay out of this thread.
I'd like to apologize again for my misunderstanding Okem, and add that those Youtube videos you posted are an incredible resource. For some of the other strutters who are interested in teaching themselves more about music.
Cheers,
- Diego
Sure,
Reductionism is often dismissed as oversimplification, but I feel that there are many different type of thinkers, and many different roads that lead to similar paths. In my field of work (self taught computer engineering) simplifying and understanding the history of a subject can help you to form the basis of understanding the whole of complicated systems.
I think that Big picture thinking can be a great way to introduce an uninformed person into very complicated subjects as long as you are willing to go beyond the initial simplification and show the evidence that helped you formed your opinions, theories and conclusions. I would love to see great examples of a holistic approach into musical studies that don't bore me to tears.
I've spent very little time in a classroom (obviously) that have ever touched on subjects I was actually interested in. However I am open, and am excited to learn as much as possible from anyone. I think we shouldn't take for granted the collective knowledge we share on this website. If anything this message board is a brilliant place to gain perspectives from all around the world.
- spidey
Absolutely man, you have a very valid point there Leon.. It absolutely has to do with the stylistic choices of the artists too. I'm not trying to dismiss that by all means. The popular sound started changing, and the new technologies gave a lot of artists the capabilities to sound more like a "Michael Jackson record" or a "Prince Record."
This adds onto my other theory of how Mainstream sensibilities were being changed by what artists and record companies thought audiences wanted to hear. Also what technology was available at the time.
For me the greatest change in recording studios approach in the 90's came with the birth of the ADAT machine. This was the truly the birth of the home studio as we know it today.
For me a gigantic example in the difference in recording studio approaches in the 80's can be heard from OFF THE WALL to BAD. When Bruce Swedien went from using 1/2 inch tape to working with digital consoles in Westlake.
- spidey
Regarding the first question.
Yes, Samba and Blues have roots in traditional African spiritual music brought by slaves. Of course this answer is still vague because each different tribe and country in Africa had many different practices of religion, and highly different styles of singing music.
and to the second one:
I think anyone would be hard pressed to find Early blues music that sounds like Samba or vice versa. It has a lot to do with how the slaves in Brazil were able to keep there religions (Candomble, Macumba, Yoruba) and African culture when they arrived in the new country. Whereas the American slaves were not allowed to keep there religions, or even be educated. I'm sure there is alot to say about the slaves adapting to the changing of the languages, and not being educated. Also the individual artists who specifically helped shape the sound of the newly formed genres of music.
I think lyrically though the concepts of Saudade and importance of God & religion play a key role in connecting the genres.
- diego
Thanks Finelikewine,
I'll send you a PM when I have a bit more time at the computer. What is your first language?
- Diego
johnny paycheck you could just ignore the thread next time
Thriller stan
I like your challenges to the accepted view.
Galileo and them did similarly, and were derided by the ignant and those with something to protect.
On the other hand, David Icke and them also pulled that trick, and they are obviously out of their fucking minds.
Anyways there's not enough of it on this board without the waaambulance brigade getting their panties bunched.
Let me add to your list of conjectures with one that may be viewed as heresy hereabouts.
By draining off all the fake emotions, and brutally stripping out the musical masturbation that usually passes for a solo, and then concentrating on pro-grade musicianship within a disciplined song structure and time length, library and lounge music within the sphere of soul/jazz/funk represents the acme, the high water mark, the very pinnacle of man's achievement in the art form of music.
Time will tell if this is more Icke than G-Leo, but I stand by it.
Which of these are challenges to the accepted view?
They are almost all cliches that have been repeated a hundred times.
Horseleech, do you make music of any kind?
- Diego
does this matter in the discussion?
this thread where you posted confirms that yes
http://waxidermy.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27844&hilit=horseleech+band&start=40
b/w
getting hostile in your thread instead of ignoring people is surely the way to get the answers you want
I played in various bands/situations for about 25 years and now mostly noodle around at home.
I don't mean to be insulting, but you asked for opinions on a subject that matters a lot to people here, and you are going to get them. And honestly, you said you wanted to discuss them, but it doesn't seem like you do.
When you open a door, you have to be prepared for what might come through.