Music thoughts.
SPlDEY
Vegas 3,375 Posts
I don't have a proper educational background in Music, but I do have some observations and ideas that might be controversial. Where I live.. I don't have many people to talk to these things about. So, I'd like you intelligent people of Soul Strut to challenge my ideas, and point out where I'm wrong in my logic.
Also if you can cite a reference or reccomend any further reading. I'd really appreciate it.
- Mainstream culture has always followed popular trends led by great or interesting artists.
- The rise of the blues in England was also heavily influenced by the British embracing American black culture.
- Samba is equal to the blues in Brazilian culture.
- The 50's was truly the beginning of the avant-garde seeping into the mainstream culture. The peak of the rise of the counter-culture being around 1969.
- The Beatles rise was also a great example of the beginnings of Television promotion on an international level.
- The Beat culture created the Hippie culture, but they rarely blended together.
- The "AFRICAN" influence in music in all cultures is most importantly an increase in challenging Rhythms, Drums and Percussive sounds.
- The sound qualities of Soulful music died/changed in the 1980's because of gigantic technological advancements (Synthesizers / Drum Machines / Digital recording) in the recording studios.
- Hip Hop was the birth of minimalist black songwriting and production.
- The modern day "CLUB" as we know it was born in the gay clubs and loft partys of 1970's NYC.
- Great tragedies and oppression to a culture often lead to the creation of great works of art / Birth of genres and musical styles.
- spidey
Also if you can cite a reference or reccomend any further reading. I'd really appreciate it.
- Mainstream culture has always followed popular trends led by great or interesting artists.
- The rise of the blues in England was also heavily influenced by the British embracing American black culture.
- Samba is equal to the blues in Brazilian culture.
- The 50's was truly the beginning of the avant-garde seeping into the mainstream culture. The peak of the rise of the counter-culture being around 1969.
- The Beatles rise was also a great example of the beginnings of Television promotion on an international level.
- The Beat culture created the Hippie culture, but they rarely blended together.
- The "AFRICAN" influence in music in all cultures is most importantly an increase in challenging Rhythms, Drums and Percussive sounds.
- The sound qualities of Soulful music died/changed in the 1980's because of gigantic technological advancements (Synthesizers / Drum Machines / Digital recording) in the recording studios.
- Hip Hop was the birth of minimalist black songwriting and production.
- The modern day "CLUB" as we know it was born in the gay clubs and loft partys of 1970's NYC.
- Great tragedies and oppression to a culture often lead to the creation of great works of art / Birth of genres and musical styles.
- spidey
Comments
That could be true if your talkin about some Crash Crew/Busy Bee type shit lol. The 'disco rhymers' were simplistic, generally speaking. BUT then you had cats like Melle Mel, who had verses back then, that were far from minimal in the songwriting dept.
For example,
BeatstreetBreakdown verse 2:
A newspaper burns in the sand
And the headlines say 'Man Destroys Man'
Extra extra, read all the bad news
On the war for peace that everybody would lose
The rise and fall, the last great empire
The sound of the whole world caught on fire
The ruthless struggle, the desperate gamble
The game that left the whole world in shambles
The cheats, the lies, the alibies
And the foolish attempts to conquer the sky
Lost in space, and what is it worth?
Huh, the President just forgot about Earth
Spendin multi-billions and maybe even trillions
The cost of weapons ran in the zillions
There's gold in the street and there's diamond under feet
And the children in Africa don't even eat
Flies on their faces, they're livin like mice
And their houses even make the ghetto look nice
Huh, the water tastes funny, it's forever too sunny
And they work all month and don't make no money
A fight for power, a nuclear shower
A people shout out in the darkest hour
Sights unseen and voices unheard
And finally the bomb gets the last word
Christians killed Muslims and Germans killed Jews
And everybody's bodies are used and abused
Huh, minds are poisoned and souls are polluted
Superiority complex is deep rooted
Leeches and lices, and people got prices
Egomaniacs control the self-righteous
Nothin is sacred and nothin is pure
So the revelation of death is our cure
Peoples in terror, the leaders made a error
And now they can't even look in the mirror
Cause we gotta suffer while things get rougher
And that's the reason why we got to get tougher
So learn from the past and work for the future
And don't be a slave to no computer
Cause the children of Man inherit the land
And the future of the world is in your hands
So just throw your hands in the air
And wave em like you just don't care
And if you believe that you're the future
Scream it out and say oh yeah (Oh yeah)
Oh yeah (Oh yeah)
Rrrrhaa!
Added & Production.
I meant minimalist songwriting and production.
- spidey
Enough observations that deserve their own thread...
About the sound qualities dieing/changing in the eighties i think that changing is the appropriate answer. More than enough soulful music was recorded in the eighties and onwards! Drum machines and synths ('cold') not sounding soulful ('warm') was intended because considered modern at the time. Might not interpret your 'sound qualities' statement the right way though.
Did you choose the Steely Dan pic on purpose?
A child is born with no state of mind
Blind to the ways of mankind
God is smilin' on you but he's frownin' too
Because only God knows what you'll go through
You'll grow in the ghetto livin' second-rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alleyway
You'll admire all the number-book takers
Thugs, pimps and pushers and the big money-makers
Drivin' big cars, spendin' twenties and tens
And you'll wanna grow up to be just like them, huh
Smugglers, scramblers, burglars, gamblers
Pickpockets, peddlers, even panhandlers
You say I'm cool, huh, I'm no fool
But then you wind up droppin' outta high school
Now you're unemployed, all non void
Walkin' round like you're Pretty Boy Floyd
Turned stick-up kid, but look what you done did
Got sent up for a eight-year bid
Now your manhood is took and you're a Maytag
Spend the next two years as a undercover fag
Bein' used and abused to serve like hell
'til one day, you was found hung dead in the cell
It was plain to see that your life was lost
You was cold and your body swung back and forth
But now your eyes sing the sad, sad song
Of how you lived so fast and died so young
I just think AJA was one of those last great 70's albums before the shit of the 80's. The new Synthesizers got rid of the need for a lot of expensive sessions musicians. Also, there was this NEW funk thing that was starting with a lot of Bootsy inspired slap bass, Rick James, Prince, Bar-kays, Cameo. The production is just very different / horrible (imo). Anybody who was doing anything remotely funky before turned incredibly cheesy.
I believe I read somewhere that the Early Linn drums were sampling Purdie. They had a big warm sound. I think that "FLAT" Digital thing came somewhere around Disco. Analog tape was starting to die out in the 80's, and the birth of the modern professional digital studio as we know it was beginning around this time.
I'm sure someone here more read up on this subject then me can probably chime in.
- spidey
- spidey
This was only in the 1920's!!
- spidey
Sure, but let's just say Samba can be Jazz and the Blues.
When I was recently in Sao Paulo I had a very large interesting debate on this subject, and I didn't understand it very much at first. It was a big revelation for me in understanding Brazillian music when I came to this conclusion.
I have to stress the importance the French music & European instruments had on traditional African music carried by the slaves in influencing the creation of early Jazz. Historically the French were also in Brazil well before the Portugese & it only makes sense the european instruments were soon incorporated into Samba.
I want to talk about before that period. When you take away those instruments and bring it back to the percussive african rhythms and call & response. The african spiritual music looks exactly like early samba batuque.
The roots of Samba & Jazz & the Blues are born from the early Negro spirituals. A few very important parts on my theory of Samba is the Call & Response element and also the melancholy nature of the lyrics.
Saudade is a popular bossa/samba brazillian term that is similar in concept to the Blues, and can be heard even in the earliest brazillian music.
Please take a moment and meditate over the similarity.
I don't think I'm too far off with this one.
- spidey
Maybe *you* should "read up on this subject". Because you have no idea what you're talking about.
P.S. the start of "minimalist black songwriting" (whatever the fuck that means) probably happened somewhere in the delta in the 1920s if not on another continent, centuries earlier. Jesus Christ dude this shit is all out there. There are literally reams of paper and wax on the subject. Go do some research.
It's not so much that you're "wrong", it's just that this isn't much of an insight. Stating that "Samba is equal to the Blues" is reductionist to the point of pointlessness. Ultimately, the story of Samba and the story of the Blues are almost completely unique to themselves, and the resulting musics don't sound very similar at all.
Acknowledging their shared origins is really just the most basic of observations.
You could gain much more insight, imo, by considering how the same roots could have evolved into such different results in different environments.
So you start off by pointlessly insulting me. Then you upset yourself and don't back up your contribution with any proof. When you could have easily just pointed out that you felt it was a return to minimalism which I would've agreed with and elaborated on. I also would've actually appreciated any book recommendation on the subject beyond the vague "reams of paper and wax".
No use wasting my time and yours Jonny. You act like musical discussion is hurting your feelings. This is pretty disappointing as you're usually very knowledgeable on Soul Strut. Feel free to come back when you get your ego in check and you're ready to have an adult conversation man.
- Diego
This whole thread is about ideas I have which some people don't share. For me understanding the similarities with Samba and the Blues was a very profound discovery. Which helped me understand the culture better. Yet I've met alot of people in Brazil who disagree with me. Sorry if you don't feel this is worth discussing. I do.
- spidey
Damn guy, seems like dude was giving you some reasonable advice. Are you really trying to learn or just to get into it with somebody? How about the point somebody made about the comparison being overly reductionist? You refute that successfully I'm in with both feet first on this debate, but it seems like you got some homework to do first.
- spidey
Rockin the mic off the head to Good Times for 5 minutes is complex to me.
This.
Look dude, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings or disappointed you, but the whole premise of your thread is basically asking for people smarter than you, who've put in the time to learn and educate themselves, often at great cost and effort, to help you test your ideas and form the most basic understanding of musical history. Starting off on the wrong foot is putting it mildly. And the only reason I felt like interjecting is because you post one of these inane, reductionist threads every so often and it's always the same shit. You might think I'm being egotistical. I'm giving you advice. I never expected anyone to tutor me through musicology 101 for free, on the internet.
Falling back on some ol' "I never went to school for this" or "nobody in my area cares" is the epitome of lazy thinking. The last time I was in your fair city I bought a suitcase worth of music books. The shit is out there, man. And the search alone will be far more edifying than posts like this.
There is no grand theory that tidily explains the vast space between the samba and the synthesizer.
personally, i dont know shit about musicology and i dont really give a fuck. it all seems to be ammunition to be annoying and pretentious at cocktail parties.
i did like the video of the african dudes banging on the rocks :pasue:
poasts that bait can be fun, but don't bring a chip on your shoulder...
minimal?
of course rap is 'minimal' whatever that means.
jesus.
loops will reset your train of thought in 4/4 sequence.
or let it keep growing.
a skeleton is minimal.
but it holds you together.
Rhythm (part 1)
Harmony (part 1)
Melody (part 1)
Bass (part1)
& yes dude looks like a cherub. you must deal.
Jonny,
I'm not sure what personal grudge you have against the threads I sometimes create. I don't have time for Internet fighting, please friend if you come back to my city don't just buy a bunch of shit from Jon and bounce. I'll buy you a beer and you and I can hang out anytime.
I've been on this site for a long ass time. I know how uptight you guys can get on here. I don't care if I come across as someone new, or you feel my contributions to the site are worthless. Petty insults from people I'll never meet will never ever bother me.
I obviously don't come to Soul Strut just to BUY records, or else you would probably know me on that level. I casually buy records when I can, and when I do it's not for collecting. It's often because I like to study the music, history, musicians, and musical ideas. I think you've completely misunderstood me and got the wrong impression of who I am.
I've personally read and studied about all these subjects, and these are some conclusions and theories I've come up with. We're all students of music here self-educating well beyond any classroom or book. I don't understand why it would be worthless not to share knowledge and discuss musical subjects casually.
- spidey
A cherub, right, well thank you Okem. I've already seen those videos, and I'm a musician with a very good understanding of "HOW MUSIC WORKS".
- spidey
You sound defensive again...
Do you want people to answer to your Q's or not?
I'm seriously not trying to come off as a dick here. I honestly would like people to add onto my discussion.
- diego
Reconsidering, maybe musicians just liked the new stuff, trying new sounds?
b/w
Then again what do i know, i'm an amateur as well, fck it.
I think he meant the guy in the video looks like a cherub, not you.
Ah! You're right. Sorry about that Okem.
- Diego