[Far out, huh?
I suppose it could be talk radio, but people only listen to that for entertainment purposes.
I'm very intrigued....can you point me towards some evidence that this school teaches, or has ever taught students to be "radicalized" and promotes anti-government violence?
Yes. Bruce and Joshua Turnidge.
You can bet there is a long line of others.
any of you guys remember a similar story that was on this american life in the last year or two about a guy in virginia who was locked up on similar circumstances? i know he wasn't a teenager but i remember it being a very similar case in that it basically reeked of entrapment.
any of you guys remember a similar story that was on this american life in the last year or two about a guy in virginia who was locked up on similar circumstances? i know he wasn't a teenager but i remember it being a very similar case in that it basically reeked of entrapment.
Missed it. Find it and I will listen.
Seems there have been a number of these stories.
From what the papers have published the defense will have a hard time proving entrapment.
(even though it may feel like it to some people.)
That one was hilarious. And sad. Yet more of the same.
Edit to add:
LaserWolf said:
Missed it. Find it and I will listen.
Seems there have been a number of these stories.
From what the papers have published the defense will have a hard time proving entrapment.
(even though it may feel like it to some people.)
Yeah, the guy in the story above is locked away for a looooong time.
I can't find any connection between Salem Academy and hardcore right-wing nutjobbery. There is definitely a segment of the Christian right with a serious anti-government bent (especially now with a black guy in the White House), and if you ever see a documentary called "Jesus Camp" you'll know what I mean. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
If there is a connection I'd also like to see some evidence for it.
If as a teen-ager you're convinced, by anyone, to intentionally set off a bomb with the intent of killing people you're either an idiot or a sociopath.
smh
so does this include the teenagers in the US military?
If you see no difference between criminals, terrorists and soldiers, then yes.
Dan, you may well find many people with limited and or ignorant views towards society at Salem Academy, but that's not necessarily where they learned or adopted those views. Salem is an oasis of the ignorant branch of conservatism in the Willamette Valley and if anything, it's more likely that the academy is only guilty of not educating such students well enough. But the same could be said about nearly any school in Salem (save the long-defunct Mill Creek School and others of its ilk).
That one was hilarious. And sad. Yet more of the same..
Thanks.
I heard some of it when it first was broadcast.
What I think we see here is that the FBI works much more efficiently now.
Making a case in just a few months with a minimum cost.
Still, I believe the kid was demented and determined.
That one was hilarious. And sad. Yet more of the same..
Thanks.
I heard some of it when it first was broadcast.
What I think we see here is that the FBI works much more efficiently now.
Making a case in just a few months with a minimum cost.
Still, I believe the kid was demented and determined.
And do you still believe that the title of this thread is even remotely true?
Seems like some do.
That's alternate universe I refuse to live in. Have fun with your eternal war against Eurasia.
I could also post this in the Wikileaks thread I suppose.
There was a decent article in the Oregonian yesterday about the entrapment debate in a law school class.
The class was divided about 50/50 on whether there was entrapment. (Based on what is known from court filings.)
Entrapment defense has rarely (if ever) been successful in these types of cases.
In other news, people are pointing out that 2 years ago real terrorists (the Turnridges) were successful in blowing up a real bomb and killing and maiming people.
Even though the Turnridges had told neighbors, family members, church members and business associates that they hated the US government, admired McVeigh, were arming themselves, wanted to kill police officers and wanted to rob a bank, they never came to the attention of the FBI.
Even though these real terrorists, like McVeigh and the guy who flew a plane into a federal building in Texas, are out there and plotting attacks against America, the FBI is setting up stings against Muslim teenagers to stop them before they become dangerous while largely ignoring the threat from Christian terrorists.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
This sounds an awful lot the the "plot" to blow up the Fountain Place building in Dallas a while back. The FBI identified this kid as a potential terror threat, and "recruited" him for an attack. They had him park an explosive laced van in the garage under the building, and gave him a cell phone detonator. The agents waited of him to enter the detonation code, and then moved in to apprahend him.
Sure, this is uncomfortably close to entrapment, but how long would it have taken for this kid to launch an actual attack?
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
One of the other Oregonians speaking up here. I have really been too busy with classes (its finals week y'all) to pay attention to the Strut lately, but this one leaped out at me. There are a couple of facts that folks are missing in this "Win Teh Internets" thread:
1) This was not a case of the FBI trolling for a terrorist. Someone turned him in (unlike those "helpful" neighbors who failed to take the Turnridges seriously). Though it hasn't been directly confirmed it is believed that it was his own father that turned him in.
2) The defendant made contact with bad actors in Pakistan. He was attempting to make the next step and get training in the art of killing people. If he had been allowed to leave the country he would have been in the wind and who knows what he would have done and/or learned.
3) Until this reaches the courts and the defense makes its case we don't know if the FBI overstepped or just did their jobs, which is protecting us [from] crazy. Frankly, I would rather they catch a guy inclined to commit a mass killing than clean up after he has done the deed. Still, if the FBI did wrong then this idiot will potentially walk and that would be bad.
4) Our city government pulled its members from the joint terrorism task force a number of years ago because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor. That's why our Mayor had no clue what was going on until it had already happened. The more paranoid folks round here think this is a long con by the FBI to get Portland back in the task force. Personally I see this a long way to go for two officers.
The FBI has a history in this country of spying on folks in less than kosher ways (Dr. King comes to mind) but this man was not a civil rights leader. He was someone who, by the limited accounts we have of him, has contemplated killing folks for a long time.
This will be interesting on how it shakes out and it should be a couple years before we really know everything that happened. Until then keep projecting your own views on the motives of the FBI. Keep it Strut.
4) Our city government pulled its members from the joint terrorism task force a number of years ago because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor. That's why our Mayor had no clue what was going on until it had already happened. The more paranoid folks round here think this is a long con by the FBI to get Portland back in the task force. Personally I see this a long way to go for two officers.
And, if Portland had joined the Joint Terrorism Task Force our Mayor would have had no clue what was going on until it had already happened, because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor.
One of the other Oregonians speaking up here. I have really been too busy with classes (its finals week y'all) to pay attention to the Strut lately, but this one leaped out at me. There are a couple of facts that folks are missing in this "Win Teh Internets" thread:
Phew! Glad you survived! ; ) Since many of your 'facts' have been addressed earlier in this thread by others, I'll assume you've also been too busy to read the thread, or any other smarter people's writing / reporting on the subject.
1) This was not a case of the FBI trolling for a terrorist. Someone turned him in (unlike those "helpful" neighbors who failed to take the Turnridges seriously). Though it hasn't been directly confirmed it is believed that it was his own father that turned him in.
He was turned in for being extremist. He was not turned in for plotting to blow up Christmas. The FBI had yet to invent that.
They held his hand every step of the way, and provided the idea, the mechanics of the plot, and all the materials and (faux) technical expertise.
This is not 'trolling a terrorist' how?
2) The defendant made contact with bad actors in Pakistan. He was attempting to make the next step and get training in the art of killing people. If he had been allowed to leave the country he would have been in the wind and who knows what he would have done and/or learned.
Except that he couldn't figure out how to contact them. Couldn't leave the country b/c the FBI was preventing him from doing so. Couldn't even get on a plane to Alaska. Hence couldn't get a job, or any money for his plot that the FBI hadn't thought up for him yet. Until the FBI gave him money for the apartment they put him in and began plotting.
3) Until this reaches the courts and the defense makes its case we don't know if the FBI overstepped or just did their jobs, which is protecting us [from] crazy. Frankly, I would rather they catch a guy inclined to commit a mass killing than clean up after he has done the deed. Still, if the FBI did wrong then this idiot will potentially walk and that would be bad.
Maybe some day the FBI will be able to accurately predict all crimes before they even help us think them up! Lock us up!
4) Our city government pulled its members from the joint terrorism task force a number of years ago because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor. That's why our Mayor had no clue what was going on until it had already happened. Some rational folks round here think this is a long con by the FBI to get Portland back in the task force. Personally I see this a long way to go for two officers.
There ^^^ FIFY. FBI sure showed Portland!
The FBI has a history in this country of spying on folks in less than kosher ways (Dr. King comes to mind) but this man was not a civil rights leader. He was someone who, by the limited accounts we have of him, has contemplated killing folks for a long time.
The FBI was not just 'spying' on him. That would be very different. They were concocting a plot for him and setting him on their path. Oh, and then, according to their own admission via affidavit, their very sophisticated recording equipment shorted out for the 'smoking gun' portion of their meeting that proved he wasn't entrapped.
This will be interesting on how it shakes out and it should be a couple years before we really know everything that happened. Until then keep projecting your own views on the motives of the FBI. Keep it Strut.
Ha ha! Just like they projected their values and motives onto this dude? Right?
One can think this kid is an idiot. Potentially a horrible criminal. And still think the FBI is so full of shit as to be really, really scary. And playing to people's basest, bigoted fears.
As has been suggested many times in this thread - the kid was not too bright, could not leave the country, and was being watched by the FBI.
So instead of keeping an eye on him - they concocted a miraculous christmas day rescue of the children and moms of Portland.
Phew! Glad you survived! ; ) Since many of your 'facts' have been addressed earlier in this thread by others, I'll assume you've also been too busy to read the thread, or any other smarter people's writing / reporting on the subject.
So sorry to get your panties in a twist there. I did read the entire thread but evidently my reading comprehension is impaired or I didn't click on all the linked articles and was addressing what was actually posted directly in the thread. Not going to go back and figure it all out. Too busy and too tired.
I am neither cheering the FBI on or vilifying them. I don't think there is enough info to do either. If anything I am conflicted about the whole mess. On one hand you got someone ready to participate in a mass killing on the other hand the FBI enabled him way beyond anything he could do on his own. Was it entrapment? I don't know.
Am I feeling bad for this young man? Only in the sense that he just thew his life away by making some really f-up choices. Enticed or not, he chose to participate.
As for the FBI wanting Portland participating in the JTTF, I really don't think the Feds are losing any sleep over us not being part of it. I sincerely doubt this was a play to get our city to join back in.
If you want my speculation on the matter? Probably not, but here it is. This guy is seriously disturbed and probably predisposed to wanting to mass kill and is justifying it with a messed up interpretation of his faith; just like Tim McVeigh felt justified by the "actions of the federal government" and felt that killing innocents was justified. The only difference between him and Tim McVeigh is the actual ability to make a bomb on their own.
The unfortunately reality is there are terrorists groups out there looking for folks to harm us and with the internet it is beyond easy for them to fish for someone to do just that. Had this young man not been on the FBI's radar he would have probably found someone eventually that would egg him on to "do something."
Considering his skills it would have probably ended badly for him (getting caught or blowing himself up) but he could have go lucky and killed some people. Oh course he may never had the opportunity to act on his impulses. But to say this guy was no threat until the FBI got involved is facetious.
Phew! Glad you survived! ; ) Since many of your 'facts' have been addressed earlier in this thread by others, I'll assume you've also been too busy to read the thread, or any other smarter people's writing / reporting on the subject.
Would I be shook if I lived in NYC and walked down 42nd street every day...HELL NO.....these lame terrorists can't even set off a simple car bomb.
Would I be shook if the Times Square bomb had actually been successful and I lived in NY.....HELL NO.....not unless it killed or harmed me or my family.
As a matter of fact, nothing will ever have me shook.....ever.....I'm a proud Merican dammit and nothing scares me.
But make no mistake...."IF" a terrorist ever is successful...and it effects me in any way....I'm gonna sue the shit out of the Gubment for not protecting my unshakeable ass.....and I'll get PAID beyatches.
I was referring to strutters from Portland, Brokenrecord excepted.
Aren't Portland the guys who always are first to remind us that we are living under a fascist power structure that must be smashed (starting with The GAP)? And now I'm hearing all this praise for sheriff Cletus and Det. Insp. Buttkiss and the instruments of local oppression. Pick a side goddammit!
I guess it's easy to be a soft batch liberal in Portland until things get real (or not even). Then you start wanting the unseen hand of authority to tuck you in at night.
Aren't Portland the guys who always are first to remind us that we are living under a fascist power structure that must be smashed (starting with The GAP)? And now I'm hearing all this praise for sheriff Cletus and Det. Insp. Buttkiss and the instruments of local oppression. Pick a side goddammit!
So our two choices are overthrow the government or The Dukes Of Hazzard.
Aren't Portland the guys who always are first to remind us that we are living under a fascist power structure that must be smashed (starting with The GAP)? And now I'm hearing all this praise for sheriff Cletus and Det. Insp. Buttkiss and the instruments of local oppression. Pick a side goddammit!
So our two choices are overthrow the government or The Dukes Of Hazzard.
You somehow made both choices sound much cooler than they actually are..
Phew! Glad you survived! ; ) Since many of your 'facts' have been addressed earlier in this thread by others, I'll assume you've also been too busy to read the thread, or any other smarter people's writing / reporting on the subject.
wow, you are being a real dickhead in this thread
Thank you! The smiley was meant to show I was kidding. And by 'smarter people' I meant smarter than me and the others yammering in here. But I guess my ability to communicate humor is lacking too. Oh well.
Comments
If the school is actually teaching students that it's ok to kill innocent citizens it should be shut down.
Missed it. Find it and I will listen.
Seems there have been a number of these stories.
From what the papers have published the defense will have a hard time proving entrapment.
(even though it may feel like it to some people.)
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/387/arms-trader-2009
That one was hilarious. And sad. Yet more of the same.
Edit to add:
Yeah, the guy in the story above is locked away for a looooong time.
I can't find any connection between Salem Academy and hardcore right-wing nutjobbery. There is definitely a segment of the Christian right with a serious anti-government bent (especially now with a black guy in the White House), and if you ever see a documentary called "Jesus Camp" you'll know what I mean. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/
If there is a connection I'd also like to see some evidence for it.
Of course sometimes there's no difference at all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315596/Five-US-troops-accused-killing-Afghan-civilians-fun.html
Thanks.
I heard some of it when it first was broadcast.
What I think we see here is that the FBI works much more efficiently now.
Making a case in just a few months with a minimum cost.
Still, I believe the kid was demented and determined.
Perspective is everything.
And do you still believe that the title of this thread is even remotely true?
Seems like some do.
That's alternate universe I refuse to live in. Have fun with your eternal war against Eurasia.
I could also post this in the Wikileaks thread I suppose.
SOME MORON TRIED TO BLOW UP PORTLAND YESTERDAY
The class was divided about 50/50 on whether there was entrapment. (Based on what is known from court filings.)
Entrapment defense has rarely (if ever) been successful in these types of cases.
In other news, people are pointing out that 2 years ago real terrorists (the Turnridges) were successful in blowing up a real bomb and killing and maiming people.
Even though the Turnridges had told neighbors, family members, church members and business associates that they hated the US government, admired McVeigh, were arming themselves, wanted to kill police officers and wanted to rob a bank, they never came to the attention of the FBI.
Even though these real terrorists, like McVeigh and the guy who flew a plane into a federal building in Texas, are out there and plotting attacks against America, the FBI is setting up stings against Muslim teenagers to stop them before they become dangerous while largely ignoring the threat from Christian terrorists.
There is no doubt in my mind that if the FBI wanted to they could find a Christian nut in almost any county in America who could be incited into carrying out a terrorist plot.
You mean like this??
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/
No.
Ok...then maybe like this?
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/09/fbi_arrest_potential_domestic.php
This sounds an awful lot the the "plot" to blow up the Fountain Place building in Dallas a while back. The FBI identified this kid as a potential terror threat, and "recruited" him for an attack. They had him park an explosive laced van in the garage under the building, and gave him a cell phone detonator. The agents waited of him to enter the detonation code, and then moved in to apprahend him.
Sure, this is uncomfortably close to entrapment, but how long would it have taken for this kid to launch an actual attack?
Apologies if this has already been discussed.
That's a little closer, but I don't see how entrapment or even enticement, can be argued here either.
1) This was not a case of the FBI trolling for a terrorist. Someone turned him in (unlike those "helpful" neighbors who failed to take the Turnridges seriously). Though it hasn't been directly confirmed it is believed that it was his own father that turned him in.
2) The defendant made contact with bad actors in Pakistan. He was attempting to make the next step and get training in the art of killing people. If he had been allowed to leave the country he would have been in the wind and who knows what he would have done and/or learned.
3) Until this reaches the courts and the defense makes its case we don't know if the FBI overstepped or just did their jobs, which is protecting us [from] crazy. Frankly, I would rather they catch a guy inclined to commit a mass killing than clean up after he has done the deed. Still, if the FBI did wrong then this idiot will potentially walk and that would be bad.
4) Our city government pulled its members from the joint terrorism task force a number of years ago because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor. That's why our Mayor had no clue what was going on until it had already happened. The more paranoid folks round here think this is a long con by the FBI to get Portland back in the task force. Personally I see this a long way to go for two officers.
The FBI has a history in this country of spying on folks in less than kosher ways (Dr. King comes to mind) but this man was not a civil rights leader. He was someone who, by the limited accounts we have of him, has contemplated killing folks for a long time.
This will be interesting on how it shakes out and it should be a couple years before we really know everything that happened. Until then keep projecting your own views on the motives of the FBI. Keep it Strut.
And, if Portland had joined the Joint Terrorism Task Force our Mayor would have had no clue what was going on until it had already happened, because the two officers tasked to the group would have been outside review by their bosses and the mayor.
So sorry to get your panties in a twist there. I did read the entire thread but evidently my reading comprehension is impaired or I didn't click on all the linked articles and was addressing what was actually posted directly in the thread. Not going to go back and figure it all out. Too busy and too tired.
I am neither cheering the FBI on or vilifying them. I don't think there is enough info to do either. If anything I am conflicted about the whole mess. On one hand you got someone ready to participate in a mass killing on the other hand the FBI enabled him way beyond anything he could do on his own. Was it entrapment? I don't know.
Am I feeling bad for this young man? Only in the sense that he just thew his life away by making some really f-up choices. Enticed or not, he chose to participate.
As for the FBI wanting Portland participating in the JTTF, I really don't think the Feds are losing any sleep over us not being part of it. I sincerely doubt this was a play to get our city to join back in.
If you want my speculation on the matter? Probably not, but here it is. This guy is seriously disturbed and probably predisposed to wanting to mass kill and is justifying it with a messed up interpretation of his faith; just like Tim McVeigh felt justified by the "actions of the federal government" and felt that killing innocents was justified. The only difference between him and Tim McVeigh is the actual ability to make a bomb on their own.
The unfortunately reality is there are terrorists groups out there looking for folks to harm us and with the internet it is beyond easy for them to fish for someone to do just that. Had this young man not been on the FBI's radar he would have probably found someone eventually that would egg him on to "do something."
Considering his skills it would have probably ended badly for him (getting caught or blowing himself up) but he could have go lucky and killed some people. Oh course he may never had the opportunity to act on his impulses. But to say this guy was no threat until the FBI got involved is facetious.
wow, you are being a real dickhead in this thread
Why should I be shook.....I am an upper middle class white dude living out in the country.
My town is #43,562 on the Terrorist Hit Parade.
Would I be shook if I lived in NYC and walked down 42nd street every day...HELL NO.....these lame terrorists can't even set off a simple car bomb.
Would I be shook if the Times Square bomb had actually been successful and I lived in NY.....HELL NO.....not unless it killed or harmed me or my family.
As a matter of fact, nothing will ever have me shook.....ever.....I'm a proud Merican dammit and nothing scares me.
But make no mistake...."IF" a terrorist ever is successful...and it effects me in any way....I'm gonna sue the shit out of the Gubment for not protecting my unshakeable ass.....and I'll get PAID beyatches.
I was referring to strutters from Portland, Brokenrecord excepted.
Aren't Portland the guys who always are first to remind us that we are living under a fascist power structure that must be smashed (starting with The GAP)? And now I'm hearing all this praise for sheriff Cletus and Det. Insp. Buttkiss and the instruments of local oppression. Pick a side goddammit!
I guess it's easy to be a soft batch liberal in Portland until things get real (or not even). Then you start wanting the unseen hand of authority to tuck you in at night.
So our two choices are overthrow the government or The Dukes Of Hazzard.