Entrapment: this very narrow defense works only if: (i) the criminal design originates with the government; (ii) the defendant was not predisposed to commit the crime; and (iii) is an affirmative defense with the burden on the defendant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.
Entrapment: this very narrow defense works only if: (i) the criminal design originates with the government; (ii) the defendant was not predisposed to commit the crime; and (iii) is an affirmative defense with the burden on the defendant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.
Entrapment: this very narrow defense works only if: (i) the criminal design originates with the government; (ii) the defendant was not predisposed to commit the crime; and (iii) is an affirmative defense with the burden on the defendant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.
Yes, Trigger, we covered this already.
No. You might have said the word "entrapment," but you obviously didn't know what it actually was. What you do best.
Forget about what a bunch of yahoo's on a music board have to say.......here's someone a little closer to the issue.
In a Saturday interview with KATU News, a local leader with "Muslims for Peace" says he's concerned radical jihadists could be trying to recruit young people from Oregon.
"Thankfully the FBI stopped [Friday's attempted attack]," said Harris Zafar with the Portland group Muslims for Peace. "But is this a growing trend now that we still don't know about? Even in Oregon, youth ... are becoming radicalized."
you rob a bank with a squirt gun and it's armed robbery. I'm cool with that. Even if the cops found out about your plan and posed as neighborhood elder arms dealers to sell you the squirt gun. Are you not cool widdat?
This is what you guys are deciding to internet-battle about today? This guy thought he was going to blow up a bunch of people! Sure, they were probably from Beaverton or whatever, but still. Comeonsrsly.
LOL - well, I guess he doesn't do anything to disprove the theory that most latent jihadi suicide bombers / shooters are engineers.
Okay - so he's 19. Technically an adult, but brain development-wise still a teen. He was an immigrant from a country with a terrible history. A foreign teen trying to fit in. His parents got divorced. They were disapproving of his radicalism and giving him shit. A troubled kid.
Then, there's this welcoming group - that accepts him, feels like a family, gives his life important meaning. But this group is associated with terrible violence and reviled by society at large. Be it a US gang, or jihadists - this stuff is VERY appealing to some disaffected young men.
He sounds like a foolish bumbling kid. He had the wrong email address for his 'contact', he couldn't get a ticket he wanted to Yemen, he didn't know where to get bomb making supplies, or what to do with them.
Until the FBI stepped in a guided him every step of the way.
AND, looking at the FBI's history in this country in general - they're full of shit, incompetent, dangerous and I don't trust one goddamn thing they say about anything.
And already the mosque the kid's family went to in Oregon has been firebombed! Jesus fucking Christ. The FBI is doing us NO favors in the 'war on terror'.
The info I see coming out of the Oregonian is a different picture than the one you are painting.
Just on a quick factual note, his family's Mosque has not been firebombed.
There was a fire set at the place where he occasional worshiped in Corvallis. His family is in Beaverton.
I have maybe a quarter of the Oregonian has printed. Most of what they have printed is straight from the FBI, or bland interviews with neighbors. ("He was such a nice quiet kid.")
What I have seen suggests that the kid was determined to be come a violent jihadist.
The kid made all the plans, he chose the weapon, the place (Pioneer Court House Square, Portland's "living room") and the time (Xmas tree lighting).
According to the FBI they gave him multiple chances to back out, they pointed out that children would be killed, he was determined to proceed.
I know some Somali refugees. What I learned was that Somalis, generally speaking came in 3 waves. It appears he came in the first wave, which were urban, well educated Somalis with mean to leave the country when conflict first broke out.
The Somalis I have known were from the 3rd wave. These are rural, poorly educated people who lived in refugee camps before coming to this country. They mostly came with just their clothes. Women and children, the men were either killed or recruited into fighting.
The FBI's kid came here with both parents and lived in a middle class suburb.
The FBI is doing good pr to establish that the kid was the "mastermind" behind the plot, and the FBI just supplied the bomb. We will see what happens in court.
What if the FBI had not supplied the bomb and pretend to be terrorists.
I had friends building bombs in Jr High School, not that hard. Any one can walk into a flea market and buy guns and ammo. Carrying out an attack is not that hard, we can be thankful that the last few attempts have fizzled.
Of the 4 Oregon terrorist cases this is the one case where the FBI seems to have done things right.
all there was - an angry teenager with a misguided desire to channel anger and depression into destruction based on shaky ideological foundations. rather like the average 19 year old US military recruit i would think.
Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit! The "average 19 year old US military recruit" is usually looking for money for college or for an alternative to working at Pizza Hut in the small town they feel trapped in - not getting tumescent at the idea of blowing up arabs ... why the fuck would you even suggest that?
all there was - an angry teenager with a misguided desire to channel anger and depression into destruction based on shaky ideological foundations. rather like the average 19 year old US military recruit i would think.
Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit! The "average 19 year old US military recruit" is usually looking for money for college or for an alternative to working at Pizza Hut in the small town they feel trapped in - not getting tumescent at the idea of blowing up arabs ... why the fuck would you even suggest that?
I'm sure he's in Room 101 right now getting a backrub.
Phantom crimes are some Sci-Fi bullshit. We tried it throughout the War on Drugs, locking up thousands of people over crumbs of crack while other people with ounces, even kilos, of powder cocaine got probation, suspended sentences, and community service. It was all cosmetic to assuage the fears of the voting public by creating a boogieman. The same thing is happening now. People with the most blood on their hands are being paid bucket loads of tax payer cash, and every once in a while we sacrifice a retard to make us all feel safer.
If this phantom statistic makes people feel better about the way we are conducting the War on Terror, then I guess it looks like we will be in Afghanistan and Iraq for another decade at least, because in case you didn't know, both places are FUBAR. What that will do to the standard of living here is anybody's guess. But I would venture that we will not be freer or safer or richer.
Left leaning soulstrut LOL.
So to be genuinely left leaning one would have to support what, exactly? Giving this kid daily humjobs and a bag of cash?
I'm still waiting for an answer to the question: What should the FBI have done once they got the tip?
Nothing, you know like when they got the memos entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike within US".
You've always demonstrated clearly that you are a DU/DLC dittomonkey. If this manufactured event had happened with Bush in office you would be spinning it very differently. Fact.
Millions of people in this country want to harm many others in this country, some of them are muslim, some of them live in the wilds of Montana. They all get up every day to eat breakfast, send their kids to school, and maybe head to Walmart to buy a new phone charger. And the country still exists. If the FBI spent the same money and energy entrapping young Aryan Nation rednecks, the country, starting with the House of Reps, would go apeshit. Parts of the country would have National Guard mobilized and you'd feel like you were living in the Green Zone. So we leave it alone and just get on with things because it solves nothing in fact would create more sympathizers.
Here's a fucking novel idea: stop voting for this, BobLarryMoe.
I'm not "spinning" this any way. And I'm no "DLC" type, and I'm not sure why you're trying to spin me that way.
This arrest is a minor deal. The issue I'm discussing is whether the FBI did anything wrong in the way they pursued this case. They may well have, but there isn't enough evidence to draw that conclusion.
The Feds HAVE gone after redneck/militia/Aryan nation sorts with tactics some have objected to. Take the Hutaree as one recent example.
I didn't have any sympathy for the Hutaree and I don't have any for this kid. I'm not a law'n'order type so I'm not calling for any of them to be locked up for life, but I am glad they'll all have the government up their ass for a long time.
By the way I have no idea who you are or why you're coming off like a hostile mental patient. If we have some sort of "history," though, I'll bet it was more fun for me than for you.
If as a teen-ager you're convinced, by anyone, to intentionally set off a bomb with the intent of killing people you're either an idiot or a sociopath.
You do understand why our military and most around the world start recruiting at 18 years old rather than 21?
erm, no. a pyrrhic victory is just that - a victory where nothing has actually been acheived. there was no bomb, there were no means to make one, there was no contact with actual terrorists. all there was - an angry teenager with a misguided desire to channel anger and depression into destruction based on shaky ideological foundations.
Resisting the impulse to parse whether a threat was invented and nonexistent or a potential hazard that bore an active investigation, your definition of "Pyhrric victory" is, as BD pointed out, incorrect. It's not a meaningless win - it's one that is achieved at so great a cost as to mean that the victor will eventually lose the war. It's utilized as thus: a sports team loses three crucial star players for the year after winning a regular-season game against a rival. Sure, it's a "W" in the stat column and an ego boost, but it's clear that championship aspirations for that team are over.
haha. yes i know, i canz googlez bruv. use of language complaint upheld.
unless you want to turn it around and say, well what battles are really being won? afghanistan and iraq are going great, and the USA is a way safer place now isn't it. i'm sure we'll look back and say, wow the war on terror, a triumphant success. erm.
Entrapment: this very narrow defense works only if: (i) the criminal design originates with the government; (ii) the defendant was not predisposed to commit the crime; and (iii) is an affirmative defense with the burden on the defendant to prove by a preponderance of the evidence.
Ha ha! Fucking typical! It just so happens the recording of one of the most critical meetings between the FBI and the kid didn't work due to 'technical difficulties.' lol.
"Second, in order not to be found to have entrapped someone into committing a crime, law enforcement agents want to be able to prove that, in the 1992 words of the Supreme Court, the accused was "was independently predisposed to commit the crime for which he was arrested." To prove that, undercover agents are often careful to stress that the accused has multiple choices, and they then induce him into choosing with his own volition to commit the crime. In this case, that was achieved by the undercover FBI agent's allegedly advising Mohamud that there were at least five ways he could serve the cause of Islam (including by praying, studying engineering, raising funds to send overseas, or becoming "operational"), and Mohamud replied he wanted to "be operational" by using exploding a bomb (para. 35-37).
But strangely, while all other conversations with Mohamud which the FBI summarizes were (according to the affidavit) recorded by numerous recording devices, this conversation -- the crucial one for negating Mohamud's entrapment defense -- was not. That's because, according to the FBI, the undercover agent "was equipped with audio equipment to record the meeting. However, due to technical problems, the meeting was not recorded" (para. 37)."
I can't believe people are falling for this shit! Hope you enjoy giving up more and more civil rights to save you all from this faux terror!
1 - that this kid is probably a danger to himself and others and probably deserves to be locked up
does not preclude that
2 - the government is running in a self-perpetuating circle designed to placate Average American Fears and generate press along the lines of We Are Doing Something.
All of this shit will go out the window the next time someone above room-temp intelligence actually pulls off an attack. That's what I'm worried about.
1 - that this kid is probably a danger to himself and others and probably deserves to be locked up
does not preclude that
2 - the government is running in a self-perpetuating circle designed to placate Average American Fears and generate press along the lines of We Are Doing Something.
All of this shit will go out the window the next time someone above room-temp intelligence actually pulls off an attack. That's what I'm worried about.
Meanwhile, another Oregon terrorist case, that received almost no national press is now several weeks into trial.
Joshua and Bruce Turnidge, were radicalized in a religious school, hated America, Killed 2 police officers, severely crippled another, and wounded a civilian.
Even though they openly shared their anti-American views with neighbors and co-workers and strangers for years, they never came to the attention of the FBI.
[Far out, huh?
I suppose it could be talk radio, but people only listen to that for entertainment purposes.
I'm very intrigued....can you point me towards some evidence that this school teaches, or has ever taught students to be "radicalized" and promotes anti-government violence?
[Far out, huh?
I suppose it could be talk radio, but people only listen to that for entertainment purposes.
I'm very intrigued....can you point me towards some evidence that this school teaches, or has ever taught students to be "radicalized" and promotes anti-government violence?
Yes. Bruce and Joshua Turnidge.
You can bet there is a long line of others.
If as a teen-ager you're convinced, by anyone, to intentionally set off a bomb with the intent of killing people you're either an idiot or a sociopath.
smh
so does this include the teenagers in the US military?
If as a teen-ager you're convinced, by anyone, to intentionally set off a bomb with the intent of killing people you're either an idiot or a sociopath.
smh
so does this include the teenagers in the US military?
If you see no difference between criminals, terrorists and soldiers, then yes.
I'm sure he's in Room 101 right now getting a backrub.
Phantom crimes are some Sci-Fi bullshit. We tried it throughout the War on Drugs, locking up thousands of people over crumbs of crack while other people with ounces, even kilos, of powder cocaine got probation, suspended sentences, and community service. It was all cosmetic to assuage the fears of the voting public by creating a boogieman. The same thing is happening now. People with the most blood on their hands are being paid bucket loads of tax payer cash, and every once in a while we sacrifice a retard to make us all feel safer.
If this phantom statistic makes people feel better about the way we are conducting the War on Terror, then I guess it looks like we will be in Afghanistan and Iraq for another decade at least, because in case you didn't know, both places are FUBAR. What that will do to the standard of living here is anybody's guess. But I would venture that we will not be freer or safer or richer.
Left leaning soulstrut LOL.
if you haven't seen this yet, i seriously recommend it "American Drug War: The Last White Hope"
Comments
Yes, Trigger, we covered this already.
No. You might have said the word "entrapment," but you obviously didn't know what it actually was. What you do best.
In a Saturday interview with KATU News, a local leader with "Muslims for Peace" says he's concerned radical jihadists could be trying to recruit young people from Oregon.
"Thankfully the FBI stopped [Friday's attempted attack]," said Harris Zafar with the Portland group Muslims for Peace. "But is this a growing trend now that we still don't know about? Even in Oregon, youth ... are becoming radicalized."
This is what you guys are deciding to internet-battle about today? This guy thought he was going to blow up a bunch of people! Sure, they were probably from Beaverton or whatever, but still. Comeonsrsly.
The info I see coming out of the Oregonian is a different picture than the one you are painting.
Just on a quick factual note, his family's Mosque has not been firebombed.
There was a fire set at the place where he occasional worshiped in Corvallis. His family is in Beaverton.
I have maybe a quarter of the Oregonian has printed. Most of what they have printed is straight from the FBI, or bland interviews with neighbors. ("He was such a nice quiet kid.")
What I have seen suggests that the kid was determined to be come a violent jihadist.
The kid made all the plans, he chose the weapon, the place (Pioneer Court House Square, Portland's "living room") and the time (Xmas tree lighting).
According to the FBI they gave him multiple chances to back out, they pointed out that children would be killed, he was determined to proceed.
I know some Somali refugees. What I learned was that Somalis, generally speaking came in 3 waves. It appears he came in the first wave, which were urban, well educated Somalis with mean to leave the country when conflict first broke out.
The Somalis I have known were from the 3rd wave. These are rural, poorly educated people who lived in refugee camps before coming to this country. They mostly came with just their clothes. Women and children, the men were either killed or recruited into fighting.
The FBI's kid came here with both parents and lived in a middle class suburb.
The FBI is doing good pr to establish that the kid was the "mastermind" behind the plot, and the FBI just supplied the bomb. We will see what happens in court.
What if the FBI had not supplied the bomb and pretend to be terrorists.
I had friends building bombs in Jr High School, not that hard. Any one can walk into a flea market and buy guns and ammo. Carrying out an attack is not that hard, we can be thankful that the last few attempts have fizzled.
Of the 4 Oregon terrorist cases this is the one case where the FBI seems to have done things right.
Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit! The "average 19 year old US military recruit" is usually looking for money for college or for an alternative to working at Pizza Hut in the small town they feel trapped in - not getting tumescent at the idea of blowing up arabs ... why the fuck would you even suggest that?
I'm not "spinning" this any way. And I'm no "DLC" type, and I'm not sure why you're trying to spin me that way.
This arrest is a minor deal. The issue I'm discussing is whether the FBI did anything wrong in the way they pursued this case. They may well have, but there isn't enough evidence to draw that conclusion.
The Feds HAVE gone after redneck/militia/Aryan nation sorts with tactics some have objected to. Take the Hutaree as one recent example.
I didn't have any sympathy for the Hutaree and I don't have any for this kid. I'm not a law'n'order type so I'm not calling for any of them to be locked up for life, but I am glad they'll all have the government up their ass for a long time.
By the way I have no idea who you are or why you're coming off like a hostile mental patient. If we have some sort of "history," though, I'll bet it was more fun for me than for you.
You do understand why our military and most around the world start recruiting at 18 years old rather than 21?
Resisting the impulse to parse whether a threat was invented and nonexistent or a potential hazard that bore an active investigation, your definition of "Pyhrric victory" is, as BD pointed out, incorrect. It's not a meaningless win - it's one that is achieved at so great a cost as to mean that the victor will eventually lose the war. It's utilized as thus: a sports team loses three crucial star players for the year after winning a regular-season game against a rival. Sure, it's a "W" in the stat column and an ego boost, but it's clear that championship aspirations for that team are over.
The historicity of the phrase is here.
unless you want to turn it around and say, well what battles are really being won? afghanistan and iraq are going great, and the USA is a way safer place now isn't it. i'm sure we'll look back and say, wow the war on terror, a triumphant success. erm.
"Second, in order not to be found to have entrapped someone into committing a crime, law enforcement agents want to be able to prove that, in the 1992 words of the Supreme Court, the accused was "was independently predisposed to commit the crime for which he was arrested." To prove that, undercover agents are often careful to stress that the accused has multiple choices, and they then induce him into choosing with his own volition to commit the crime. In this case, that was achieved by the undercover FBI agent's allegedly advising Mohamud that there were at least five ways he could serve the cause of Islam (including by praying, studying engineering, raising funds to send overseas, or becoming "operational"), and Mohamud replied he wanted to "be operational" by using exploding a bomb (para. 35-37).
But strangely, while all other conversations with Mohamud which the FBI summarizes were (according to the affidavit) recorded by numerous recording devices, this conversation -- the crucial one for negating Mohamud's entrapment defense -- was not. That's because, according to the FBI, the undercover agent "was equipped with audio equipment to record the meeting. However, due to technical problems, the meeting was not recorded" (para. 37)."
I can't believe people are falling for this shit! Hope you enjoy giving up more and more civil rights to save you all from this faux terror!
The FBI affidavit: http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/USAFFIDAVIT.pdf (paragraphs 32 - 37 are about the relevant meeting)
The above quote: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/11/28/fbi/index.htm
1 - that this kid is probably a danger to himself and others and probably deserves to be locked up
does not preclude that
2 - the government is running in a self-perpetuating circle designed to placate Average American Fears and generate press along the lines of We Are Doing Something.
All of this shit will go out the window the next time someone above room-temp intelligence actually pulls off an attack. That's what I'm worried about.
Agreed.
Joshua and Bruce Turnidge, were radicalized in a religious school, hated America, Killed 2 police officers, severely crippled another, and wounded a civilian.
Even though they openly shared their anti-American views with neighbors and co-workers and strangers for years, they never came to the attention of the FBI.
Really...the Father and Son were radicalized in a religious school??
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20023554-504083.html
What school was this that radicalized them??
Salem Academy. A private Christian School in Salem OR. It was started, in part, by their family.
And this school taught anti-government rhetoric and promoted violence??
http://www.salemacademy.org/ParentResources/tabid/59/Default.aspx
Wow
Far out, huh?
I suppose it could be talk radio, but people only listen to that for entertainment purposes.
I'm very intrigued....can you point me towards some evidence that this school teaches, or has ever taught students to be "radicalized" and promotes anti-government violence?
Yes. Bruce and Joshua Turnidge.
You can bet there is a long line of others.
Vance Day is a Salem Academy graduate. He said, "I know him to be strong, very pro-American.". He also is or was Chairmen of the state Republican Party.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/brent_wojahnthe_oregonianinves.html
It really isn't that surprising.
so does this include the teenagers in the US military?
If you see no difference between criminals, terrorists and soldiers, then yes.
if you haven't seen this yet, i seriously recommend it "American Drug War: The Last White Hope"