I have to admit I think Pet Sounds is massively overrated. I lke early BB much more.
It's the opposite for me - the Beach Boys were better as a "progressive" band than a "Top 40" band, something I will rarely say about any act.
I'm not quite a Beach Boys fan, but I'll take "Heroes & Villains" and "Caroline No" over "Surfin' USA" and "I Get Around" anyday.
the Dramatics don???t sound that different from the Bark-Kays in the early 70s.
???? Both acts had sophisticated production and recorded for Volt, but apart from that, I hear NO similarities...the Dramatics were a vocal group styled after the (Whitfield-era) Tempts. The Bar-Kays was a self-contained band that gradually started leaning in a hardrock direction.
I don't think that (the Bar-Kays') Son of Shaft is that sonically different than (the Dramatics') Get Up and Get Down.
It's not different, but that was an anomaly, a one-time-arounder. The Dramatics weren't THAT funky most of the time.
I don't know. Whatcha See and Devil Is Dope are pretty funky to me. The point wasn't that they were stylistically similar all the time but that you could tell that they shared certain production values based on the company they kept.
I think my earlier point vis a vis the relative merits of stax vs volt is clear enough though.
Good point about Pet Sounds' unbelievably high RS rating. #2 ahead of Electric Ladyland or Blood On the Tracks or What's Goin' On or 8 million others is exactly what this thread should be about.
I'm basically a rock fan. I like a lot of other music, but even when it comes to folk or avant material I'm not going to assign all-time status to artists who can't mix it up and deal with harsh materials/emotions and stick solely to soft.
Even someone like Donovan, who gets tagged as some simple hippie dippy by some, cranked out "Season of the Witch."
And then there are the Beach Boys. When the Sonics and the Trashmen were kicking they were doing "Be True To Your School" and assorted other lame shit. No kinship with garage rock AT ALL. Bobby Fuller alone could have beaten the entire bunch of bedwetters to death in his sleep.
The Beatles could play in Hamburg and get it done. The Beach Boys would have pissed their pants en masse, and then they'd have had to stick Brian in a krankhaus for a month.
And that's during their TOUGH period.
Then they turned studio worm and started cranking out stuff so soft Charmin is sandpaper by comparison.
It must really have pissed Arthur Lee off - and justifiably so - that a piddling puddle like "Pet Sounds" was said by anyone to be better than "Forever Changes."
People are entitled to like whoever they like or don't like. That said, same people should be able to delineate "I don't like xyz" from "xyz are overrated"
MJ and the beatles and prince are overrated? Gtfoohwtb. Take a look through your record collections and chart the sheer amount of influence these artists have had on other popular musicians. This isn't even an argument worth having, their "ratedness" is sitting in your expedit.
So you don't like them personally, that's fine, but when people all over the world cherish thier musical legacy, it's kind of hard to be critical.
Let's not turn soulstrut into the teaparty of music criticism.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Again, I don't get how people supposedly into rap can't fathom how much 2Pac genuinely meant to his fans. His critics talk about him being contrived or not that great a technical rapper...but c'mon, how much can you possibly miss the forest for the trees?
Again, I don't get how people supposedly into rap can't fathom how much 2Pac genuinely meant to his fans. His critics talk about him being contrived or not that great a technical rapper...but c'mon, how much can you possibly miss the forest for the trees?
Does he have ANY flaws or do u rate him HIGH across all categories?
Can u tell the difference between a streak shooter vs a pure shooter?
People are entitled to like whoever they like or don't like. That said, same people should be able to delineate "I don't like xyz" from "xyz are overrated"
MJ and the beatles and prince are overrated? Gtfoohwtb. Take a look through your record collections and chart the sheer amount of influence these artists have had on other popular musicians. This isn't even an argument worth having, their "ratedness" is sitting in your expedit.
So you don't like them personally, that's fine, but when people all over the world cherish thier musical legacy, it's kind of hard to be critical.
Let's not turn soulstrut into the teaparty of music criticism.
All art is in a constant state of reassessment and subject to criticism at any time.
Recorded music hasn't been around very long historically speaking.
Thirty years ago people would have laughed out loud if you'd said that in 2010 Michael Jackson would be widely considered to have been more important than Stevie Wonder, or that the Sex Pistols would dance on Rick Wakeman's grave.
Can we separate artist we dont like vs. artists that get over-RATED.
Soundz like a good idea.
I know I've said before, right here on Soulstrut, that I thought Bob Marley was overrated.
Meant it.
But that doesn't mean that I don't like his music.
I wouldn't put him in front of everybody else. But I'll admit to having a few of his albums around.
Marley was okay. I don't think he was ***the best***, but he wasn't horrible either.
We need to breakdown OVERRATED.
What Marley did for the music is undeniable.
If one thinks that there 3 better Reggae artists from his era, that's understandable.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
batmon said:
HarveyCanal said:
Again, I don't get how people supposedly into rap can't fathom how much 2Pac genuinely meant to his fans. His critics talk about him being contrived or not that great a technical rapper...but c'mon, how much can you possibly miss the forest for the trees?
Does he have ANY flaws or do u rate him HIGH across all categories?
Can u tell the difference between a streak shooter vs a pure shooter?
When Dear Mama comes on and I feel like I'm hearing the most sentimental but still gangsta rap song ever made or when How Do You Want It gets played in the club and the place goes bananas, I'm not thinking of what art school Pac went to in Baltimore or that his verses aren't in perfect pentameter...really, don't be such a dork and appreciate the goodness already. Maybe in the end, you genuinely aren't sold, but it's like saying Babe Ruth wasn't good at hitting home runs. PLAESE TO STOP EMBARRASSING YASELF!
Thirty years ago people would have laughed out loud if you'd said that in 2010 Michael Jackson would be widely considered to have been more important than Stevie Wonder.
In my world circa 1980 MJ was already more important than Stevie.
People are entitled to like whoever they like or don't like. That said, same people should be able to delineate "I don't like xyz" from "xyz are overrated"
MJ and the beatles and prince are overrated? Gtfoohwtb. Take a look through your record collections and chart the sheer amount of influence these artists have had on other popular musicians. This isn't even an argument worth having, their "ratedness" is sitting in your expedit.
So you don't like them personally, that's fine, but when people all over the world cherish thier musical legacy, it's kind of hard to be critical.
Let's not turn soulstrut into the teaparty of music criticism.
All art is in a constant state of reassessment and subject to criticism at any time.
Recorded music hasn't been around very long historically speaking.
Thirty years ago people would have laughed out loud if you'd said that in 2010 Michael Jackson would be widely considered to have been more important than Stevie Wonder, or that the Sex Pistols would dance on Rick Wakeman's grave.
Really dude, thirty years ago?
From wiki:
Released in 1979, it was the first album to generate four U.S. top 10 hits, including the chart-topping singles "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" and "Rock with You".[16] It reached number three on the Billboard 200 and eventually sold over 20 million copies worldwide.[17] In 1980, Jackson won three awards at the American Music Awards for his solo efforts: Favorite Soul/R&B Album, Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist, and Favorite Soul/R&B Single for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[18][19] That year, he also won Billboard Year-End for Top Black Artist and Top Black Album and a Grammy Award for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance, also for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[16] Jackson again won at the American Music Awards in 1981 for Favorite Soul/R&B Album and Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist.[20] Despite its commercial success, Jackson felt Off the Wall should have made a much bigger impact, and was determined to exceed expectations with his next release.[21] In 1980, he secured the highest royalty rate in the music industry: 37 percent of wholesale album profit.[22]
cmon son. four corners of the world were immitating or geeked of MJ in 1980.
Wonder didn't get his first platinum till 1980
Hotter than July (1980) became Wonder's first platinum-selling single album, and its single "Happy Birthday" was a successful vehicle for his campaign to establish Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday as a national holiday.
WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT THIS?
Yall need to trim your mindgardens with some realityclippers sometimes.
Again, I don't get how people supposedly into rap can't fathom how much 2Pac genuinely meant to his fans. His critics talk about him being contrived or not that great a technical rapper...but c'mon, how much can you possibly miss the forest for the trees?
Does he have ANY flaws or do u rate him HIGH across all categories?
Can u tell the difference between a streak shooter vs a pure shooter?
When Dear Mama comes on and I feel like I'm hearing the most sentimental but still gangsta rap song ever made or when How Do You Want It gets played in the club and the place goes bananas, I'm not thinking of what art school Pac went to in Baltimore or that his verses aren't in perfect pentameter...really, don't be such a dork and appreciate the goodness already. Maybe in the end, you genuinely aren't sold, but it's like saying Babe Ruth wasn't good at hitting home runs. PLAESE TO STOP EMBARRASSING YASELF!
Could u stop dude. Ur the emotional herb everytime this dude gets mentioned.
I never called dude wack, but i will not place him in my top 10 because you said so.
He lacks somethin in an MC that I(ME) feel like should be held standard.
Yet dude pretty much set a NEW standard for Introspection as an MC.
U cant get your glasses all fogged up if there are folks that dont RATE HIM AS HIGH AS HIS CULT.
People are entitled to like whoever they like or don't like. That said, same people should be able to delineate "I don't like xyz" from "xyz are overrated"
MJ and the beatles and prince are overrated? Gtfoohwtb. Take a look through your record collections and chart the sheer amount of influence these artists have had on other popular musicians. This isn't even an argument worth having, their "ratedness" is sitting in your expedit.
So you don't like them personally, that's fine, but when people all over the world cherish thier musical legacy, it's kind of hard to be critical.
Let's not turn soulstrut into the teaparty of music criticism.
All art is in a constant state of reassessment and subject to criticism at any time.
Recorded music hasn't been around very long historically speaking.
Thirty years ago people would have laughed out loud if you'd said that in 2010 Michael Jackson would be widely considered to have been more important than Stevie Wonder, or that the Sex Pistols would dance on Rick Wakeman's grave.
Really dude, thirty years ago?
From wiki:
Released in 1979, it was the first album to generate four U.S. top 10 hits, including the chart-topping singles "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" and "Rock with You".[16] It reached number three on the Billboard 200 and eventually sold over 20 million copies worldwide.[17] In 1980, Jackson won three awards at the American Music Awards for his solo efforts: Favorite Soul/R&B Album, Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist, and Favorite Soul/R&B Single for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[18][19] That year, he also won Billboard Year-End for Top Black Artist and Top Black Album and a Grammy Award for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance, also for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[16] Jackson again won at the American Music Awards in 1981 for Favorite Soul/R&B Album and Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist.[20] Despite its commercial success, Jackson felt Off the Wall should have made a much bigger impact, and was determined to exceed expectations with his next release.[21] In 1980, he secured the highest royalty rate in the music industry: 37 percent of wholesale album profit.[22]
cmon son. four corners of the world were immitating or geeked of MJ in 1980.
Wonder didn't get his first platinum till 1980
Hotter than July (1980) became Wonder's first platinum-selling single album, and its single "Happy Birthday" was a successful vehicle for his campaign to establish Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday as a national holiday.
WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT THIS?
Yall need to trim your mindgardens with some realityclippers sometimes.
You know dude's parents/peers werent playin Off The Wall in his house.
They all jumped on for Thriller like a GANG of folks.
Comments
I don't know. Whatcha See and Devil Is Dope are pretty funky to me. The point wasn't that they were stylistically similar all the time but that you could tell that they shared certain production values based on the company they kept.
I think my earlier point vis a vis the relative merits of stax vs volt is clear enough though.
I'm basically a rock fan. I like a lot of other music, but even when it comes to folk or avant material I'm not going to assign all-time status to artists who can't mix it up and deal with harsh materials/emotions and stick solely to soft.
Even someone like Donovan, who gets tagged as some simple hippie dippy by some, cranked out "Season of the Witch."
And then there are the Beach Boys. When the Sonics and the Trashmen were kicking they were doing "Be True To Your School" and assorted other lame shit. No kinship with garage rock AT ALL. Bobby Fuller alone could have beaten the entire bunch of bedwetters to death in his sleep.
The Beatles could play in Hamburg and get it done. The Beach Boys would have pissed their pants en masse, and then they'd have had to stick Brian in a krankhaus for a month.
And that's during their TOUGH period.
Then they turned studio worm and started cranking out stuff so soft Charmin is sandpaper by comparison.
It must really have pissed Arthur Lee off - and justifiably so - that a piddling puddle like "Pet Sounds" was said by anyone to be better than "Forever Changes."
I dont think anyone puts them in their top 10, but Pos is above average IMO.
haha! Yes!
many ride for him.i can't feel it after a life time of exposure
also brian ferry/and even old roxy music annoys me
give me fairport,incredible string band,bothy bancd,sandy,fahey,renbourn et all instead
or ivor cutler who shreds them all
ill just come out and say it
FUCK sunlight! straight up and down
whoa!
Seriously. The wide variety of bad looks in this thread keeps multiplying like bedbugs...
i really cannot stand her. i do not aim to shock but rather to express simply that i am hardly in awe.
Nina Simone gets rated WAY TOO HIGH by the General public,music critics,and record nerds?
Truthfully i never got into her, but I wouldnt say her talent is rammed down my throat the way Pet Sounds,Fela,The Wire,Sopranos and Dogs is.
MJ and the beatles and prince are overrated? Gtfoohwtb. Take a look through your record collections and chart the sheer amount of influence these artists have had on other popular musicians. This isn't even an argument worth having, their "ratedness" is sitting in your expedit.
So you don't like them personally, that's fine, but when people all over the world cherish thier musical legacy, it's kind of hard to be critical.
Let's not turn soulstrut into the teaparty of music criticism.
add
Spencer Tunick
Brice Marden
Ryan McGuinness
Damien Hirst
Matisse
Springsteen
Tupac
Grisham
Sammy Davis Jr.
Sean Paul
Soundz like a good idea.
I know I've said before, right here on Soulstrut, that I thought Bob Marley was overrated.
Meant it.
But that doesn't mean that I don't like his music.
I wouldn't put him in front of everybody else. But I'll admit to having a few of his albums around.
Marley was okay. I don't think he was ***the best***, but he wasn't horrible either.
Does he have ANY flaws or do u rate him HIGH across all categories?
Can u tell the difference between a streak shooter vs a pure shooter?
All art is in a constant state of reassessment and subject to criticism at any time.
Recorded music hasn't been around very long historically speaking.
Thirty years ago people would have laughed out loud if you'd said that in 2010 Michael Jackson would be widely considered to have been more important than Stevie Wonder, or that the Sex Pistols would dance on Rick Wakeman's grave.
We need to breakdown OVERRATED.
What Marley did for the music is undeniable.
If one thinks that there 3 better Reggae artists from his era, that's understandable.
When Dear Mama comes on and I feel like I'm hearing the most sentimental but still gangsta rap song ever made or when How Do You Want It gets played in the club and the place goes bananas, I'm not thinking of what art school Pac went to in Baltimore or that his verses aren't in perfect pentameter...really, don't be such a dork and appreciate the goodness already. Maybe in the end, you genuinely aren't sold, but it's like saying Babe Ruth wasn't good at hitting home runs. PLAESE TO STOP EMBARRASSING YASELF!
In my world circa 1980 MJ was already more important than Stevie.
Really dude, thirty years ago?
From wiki:
Released in 1979, it was the first album to generate four U.S. top 10 hits, including the chart-topping singles "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" and "Rock with You".[16] It reached number three on the Billboard 200 and eventually sold over 20 million copies worldwide.[17] In 1980, Jackson won three awards at the American Music Awards for his solo efforts: Favorite Soul/R&B Album, Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist, and Favorite Soul/R&B Single for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[18][19] That year, he also won Billboard Year-End for Top Black Artist and Top Black Album and a Grammy Award for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance, also for "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough".[16] Jackson again won at the American Music Awards in 1981 for Favorite Soul/R&B Album and Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist.[20] Despite its commercial success, Jackson felt Off the Wall should have made a much bigger impact, and was determined to exceed expectations with his next release.[21] In 1980, he secured the highest royalty rate in the music industry: 37 percent of wholesale album profit.[22]
cmon son. four corners of the world were immitating or geeked of MJ in 1980.
Wonder didn't get his first platinum till 1980
Hotter than July (1980) became Wonder's first platinum-selling single album, and its single "Happy Birthday" was a successful vehicle for his campaign to establish Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday as a national holiday.
WHY ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT THIS?
Yall need to trim your mindgardens with some realityclippers sometimes.
Could u stop dude. Ur the emotional herb everytime this dude gets mentioned.
I never called dude wack, but i will not place him in my top 10 because you said so.
He lacks somethin in an MC that I(ME) feel like should be held standard.
Yet dude pretty much set a NEW standard for Introspection as an MC.
U cant get your glasses all fogged up if there are folks that dont RATE HIM AS HIGH AS HIS CULT.
That doesnt diminish his impact.
You know dude's parents/peers werent playin Off The Wall in his house.
They all jumped on for Thriller like a GANG of folks.