. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ... ;)
. In the B3 hierarchy, there are very very very few people ranking above McDuff. .
you mean JS? any others? (OK for this thread isn't it?)
yup, pretty much. couldn't think of anyone else.
Dude was doing things on the organ that NOBODY else was doing.
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ... ;)
Young basically took the organ in the same direction as the post-bop, Blue Note stable, treading just on the edge of "out". The really shocking thing to me has always been that no one else (that I'm aware of, I'm sure there was someone out there) was doing a similar thing.
Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Re: Larry Young - that guy was in his own zone when it came to approaching the organ.
I'm listening to "Heaven On Earth" now. It's not one of his best LPs, but I keep it because of the fantastic, brooding 9 minute track "The Hereafter" (young G. Benson in fine form here too).
The funny thing is, there's a track on the same album called "The Infant" which is a more traditional Blue Note/Prestige/Atlantic funky soul-jazz tune a la McGriff etc., and it's striking how pedestrian it sounds compared to "The Hereafter". It's just not his element and it's evident that he was way beyond the "organ burner" thing.
I don't mind a good, simple jam that just cooks, but I wish more organ players would have stretched out like Young. And I always thought it would have been interesting to hear some of the innovative piano/keyboard players from that time try to do some crazy stuff with the organ as well.
Question for y'all. I've read a lot of forum discussions on jazz organists and in most of them you get the obligatory respectful reference to "the master" Jimmy Smith almost as if to get him out of the way. The passion seems to be reserved for the Youngs, Pattons, McDuffs and McGriffs etc. You feelin' that too or not?
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
Jimmy Smith could jam his ass off, but I always thought he was slightly overrated. One of those cats I respect more than I actually listen to. The chops were there, but the songs weren't. Yeah, if you want to work up a sweat playing air organ, you could just throw on a Smith LP and go to town, but speaking for myself there's not much there I want to LISTEN to. Lotta flashy looka-here riffs, but that wears off quick. As opposed to McGriff, who wasn't trying to "floorshow," he just said what needed to be said. And when the dust clears, McGriff makes his way to my turntable more times than Smith does.
For me it breaks down like this:
Jimmy on Blue Note - generic, serviceable blues jams. Not unlistenable, but it does tend to recede into the background
Jimmy on Verve - here comes Oliver Nelson with his overdone horn arrangements. Yikes. Starts to get more and more into "soul Muzak" territory, and you can hear why organ jazz was soon taken for granted. (There was a Harvey Pekar cartoon which talked about how he got started writing about jazz; one panel shows a 1960's-era Pekar with an album in his hand, cussing Down Beat magazine for sending him yet another organ record, the likes of which were ubiquitous back then.)
like F16 said, Jimmy Smith is often considered the innovator... he made the organ combo popular in the late 50's...
but by the time it was the 60's a yo had plethora of organists whose jams were so much more rewarding to listen to....
to me Leon Spencer had the best basslines, Charles Earland was the more "rock" oriented experimenting with wah wah pedals and such, Caesar Frazier was the underrated talent of the day, Lonnie Smith had (and still has) the most spirited, soulful style while Larry Young was of course, the Coltrane of the bunch...Patton was essentially a blues organist while Don Patterson a real bopper...and so on
however IMHO none of them had the grit of Jack McDuff and Jimmy McGriff... that's why I thought to compare the two
for progressive 67-69 organ playing, id mention brian auger, did the soul jazz/ blue note steez playing up through the mid 60s, but became more jazz meets rock towards the later 60s, check his definitely what track on the album by the same name with the trinity group from 1968 on polydor..
ok, reading this thread backwards.. so on the funk tip, i would from what ive heard with the two organ players in question, def choose mcgriff, would also pick him over jimmy smith..
dont see any mention of the organist with the dopest name in the game, groove holmes, luv that dudes work too!!
I really like this thread. Straight music talk - opinions paired with profound knowledge. We need more of that.
I would slightly prefer McDuff over McGriff without wanting to spare the latter. McGriff has more consistence but isn't surprising me. I like McDuff for having the classic soul-jazz stuff as well as the "Fouth Dimension" kind of material.
My additional calls for the list of funky organ players:
Shirley Scott
Memphis Black aka Ingfried Hoffmann
Eddy Louiss
Re: Larry Young - that guy was in his own zone when it came to approaching the organ.
I'm listening to "Heaven On Earth" now. It's not one of his best LPs, but I keep it because of the fantastic, brooding 9 minute track "The Hereafter" (young G. Benson in fine form here too).
The funny thing is, there's a track on the same album called "The Infant" which is a more traditional Blue Note/Prestige/Atlantic funky soul-jazz tune a la McGriff etc., and it's striking how pedestrian it sounds compared to "The Hereafter". It's just not his element and it's evident that he was way beyond the "organ burner" thing.
yeah, it's funny 'Heaven On Earth' was like the last Young album I still needed, and when i finally got it, it was a little disappointing. Parts of it sound like they were trying to reel him in and see if he could do a "Sidewinder"-style hit song, the same way they seem to have done with Andrew Hill on "Grass Roots". Those albums are still enjoyable and have their moments, but definitely seem kind of restrained and commercial.
so what other organ players really pushed the envelope and broke new ground? for one, I really appreciate Shirley Scott's LP on Strata East. While not as wild and blatantly 'out' as Larry Young, i find that her 'one for me' steers largely clear of the greasy bluesy soul-jazz styles that most organists worked in. It shows she had a different conception of what organ can do, and it's innovative and fresh but in a very subtle way that I find to be very dignified and pretty profound.
I really like this thread. Straight music talk - opinions paired with profound knowledge. We need more of that.
amen. One organist who I think has the most distinctive style is Patton. He's almost deliberately un-flashy. It think it was a clever and bold move when everyone else was getting branded as JS sound a like. On some tracks I find he meanders too much, but when the rhythm section's pushing him along it works well. I mostly like his work for the chemistry with Grant Green on this LP and on the guitarist's own Iron City.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey,
For the reasons stated by F-16, I've always preferred Jack McDuff or Jimmy McGriff. They are both excellent organists, but I find McDuff's work to be more moody and evocative emotionally, than McGriff's more straight-ahead style. Plus, I love McDuff's treatment of ballads (e.g., "Shadow of Your Smile" off the "Tobacco Road" LP) relative to McGriff's interpretations of them. Yet, when it comes to organists, my favorite is Charles Earland's late 60s/early 70s material (before he switched to electric piano).
One organist who I think has the most distinctive style is Patton. He???s almost deliberately un-flashy. It think it was a clever and bold move when everyone else was getting branded as JS sound a like. On some tracks I find he meanders too much, but when the rhythm section???s pushing him along it works well.
His finest moment: 1969's Understanding. I know I've big-upped this album every chance I got, but since we touched on the subject of organ players going "avant-garde," this LP must be mentioned. Patton is playing "in," saxophonist Harold Alexander is playing "out," and you'd expect it to be mismatch of the century, but no - this works. They play off each other quite well, and it's too bad this was one of Patton's last LP's for a long time.
Billy Larkin and Dave Lewis probably wouldn't be considered "innovators" - especially since their songs averaged around three minutes apiece, which is short for a jazz musician. But I like their stuff a lot. Larkin (& the Delegates) recorded a gang of LP's for Aura/World Pacific in the sixties; Dave Lewis had an album on A&M, Little Green Thing, and was highly influential on the Pacific Northwest rock scene (including the Kingsmen, who recorded a few of his tunes).
McDuff's [...] "Shadow of Your Smile" off the "Tobacco Road" LP
love. love, love that version, in fact that's the record i reached for when this thread started. mcduff all day. mcgriff was basically a really good blues player (which is what he always considered himself to be) and he has only like 1-2 essential albums and even then i almost never pull them out whereas brother jack has at least 5-8 albums that get visited fairly often.
other organist i admire that havn't been mentioned:
-paul griffin (ain't never gonna do it without the fez on!!)
-rhoda scott
-ceasar frazier
-freddie roach
for my money, groove holmes had the best basslines.
My favourite of the obscure organists has to be Bill Mason, mainly for his work on the two "fire" LPs of Rusty Bryant. Can any one show me an organ solo with more fire in it than this one?
My favourite of the obscure organists has to be Bill Mason, mainly for his work on the two "fire" LPs of Rusty Bryant. Can any one show me an organ solo with more fire in it than this one?
Don't sleep on his solo lp Gettin' Off on Eastbound. It has THE best cover of Al Green's Lets Stay Together.
ok as long as we're reppin our favorite organists, i gotta shout out the hometown homeboy Gene Ludwig. guy could hang with anybody. RIP GeLu we miss you.
My favourite of the obscure organists has to be Bill Mason, mainly for his work on the two "fire" LPs of Rusty Bryant. Can any one show me an organ solo with more fire in it than this one?
Don't sleep on his solo lp Gettin' Off on Eastbound. It has THE best cover of Al Green's Lets Stay Together.
I have it and most dig the track "Stone" but to be honest I prefer the Bryant sides. Did Mason ever record with anyone else?
for Pickwick: "Understanding" is my favourite Patton lp too !...
love Mason of course, and speaking of obscure organists playing great solos,please check Shelton Laster solo in "Flood in Franklin Park" off Grant Green's "Live at the Lighthouse": absolutely rockin' perfect !
Reuben Wilson anyone ? He never went "out" yet he experimented a bit in "set us free" with choirs vibes and percussions .. some of his jams on those couple of Blue Note albums are great too...
Charles Kynard : his prestige albums are great but his later records for Mainstream are a bit overrated...
Johnny Hammond: my favourite Lp of his is "Soul Talk", he was very good with ballads...
ok as long as we're reppin our favorite organists, i gotta shout out the hometown homeboy Gene Ludwig. guy could hang with anybody. RIP GeLu we miss you.
Respect. Got 'Mr Fink Pts 1&2' rolling in the radio show tonight.
Love both McGriff and McDuff, hell they even sit next to each other in my collection. I can't believe nobody's mentioned McDuff's version of Naima on his 'Life Every Voice And Sing' album on Jam - that is killer. I even like his Sugarhill stuff too, like 'Kisses'.
Comments
hell yes! he's definitely my favorite organist. the stuff i was saying before was more of a historical-significance-type argument. sadly, it seems like Young was playing above a lot of peoples' heads and is thus relegated to a footnote in many B3 discussions. Unity is some desert island shit for me though. but now the thread is getting hijacked ... ;)
relevant hijacking if that's not too much of a non sequitur
Young basically took the organ in the same direction as the post-bop, Blue Note stable, treading just on the edge of "out". The really shocking thing to me has always been that no one else (that I'm aware of, I'm sure there was someone out there) was doing a similar thing.
Smith gets props for being the breakout guy on the jazz organ (not the first by far, behind Fats Waller, Milt Buckner, Wild Bill Davis), and he had serious chops, but he spent a lot of prime time recording second-rate stuff for Verve, eventually being passed by guys like McDuff, McGriff, Lonnie Smith and Larry Young,
I'm listening to "Heaven On Earth" now. It's not one of his best LPs, but I keep it because of the fantastic, brooding 9 minute track "The Hereafter" (young G. Benson in fine form here too).
The funny thing is, there's a track on the same album called "The Infant" which is a more traditional Blue Note/Prestige/Atlantic funky soul-jazz tune a la McGriff etc., and it's striking how pedestrian it sounds compared to "The Hereafter". It's just not his element and it's evident that he was way beyond the "organ burner" thing.
I don't mind a good, simple jam that just cooks, but I wish more organ players would have stretched out like Young. And I always thought it would have been interesting to hear some of the innovative piano/keyboard players from that time try to do some crazy stuff with the organ as well.
Jimmy Smith could jam his ass off, but I always thought he was slightly overrated. One of those cats I respect more than I actually listen to. The chops were there, but the songs weren't. Yeah, if you want to work up a sweat playing air organ, you could just throw on a Smith LP and go to town, but speaking for myself there's not much there I want to LISTEN to. Lotta flashy looka-here riffs, but that wears off quick. As opposed to McGriff, who wasn't trying to "floorshow," he just said what needed to be said. And when the dust clears, McGriff makes his way to my turntable more times than Smith does.
For me it breaks down like this:
Jimmy on Blue Note - generic, serviceable blues jams. Not unlistenable, but it does tend to recede into the background
Jimmy on Verve - here comes Oliver Nelson with his overdone horn arrangements. Yikes. Starts to get more and more into "soul Muzak" territory, and you can hear why organ jazz was soon taken for granted. (There was a Harvey Pekar cartoon which talked about how he got started writing about jazz; one panel shows a 1960's-era Pekar with an album in his hand, cussing Down Beat magazine for sending him yet another organ record, the likes of which were ubiquitous back then.)
but by the time it was the 60's a yo had plethora of organists whose jams were so much more rewarding to listen to....
to me Leon Spencer had the best basslines, Charles Earland was the more "rock" oriented experimenting with wah wah pedals and such, Caesar Frazier was the underrated talent of the day, Lonnie Smith had (and still has) the most spirited, soulful style while Larry Young was of course, the Coltrane of the bunch...Patton was essentially a blues organist while Don Patterson a real bopper...and so on
however IMHO none of them had the grit of Jack McDuff and Jimmy McGriff... that's why I thought to compare the two
couldnt find it on youtube, so this will do
dont see any mention of the organist with the dopest name in the game, groove holmes, luv that dudes work too!!
love his prominent, humourous bass style.
I would slightly prefer McDuff over McGriff without wanting to spare the latter. McGriff has more consistence but isn't surprising me. I like McDuff for having the classic soul-jazz stuff as well as the "Fouth Dimension" kind of material.
My additional calls for the list of funky organ players:
Shirley Scott
Memphis Black aka Ingfried Hoffmann
Eddy Louiss
yeah, it's funny 'Heaven On Earth' was like the last Young album I still needed, and when i finally got it, it was a little disappointing. Parts of it sound like they were trying to reel him in and see if he could do a "Sidewinder"-style hit song, the same way they seem to have done with Andrew Hill on "Grass Roots". Those albums are still enjoyable and have their moments, but definitely seem kind of restrained and commercial.
so what other organ players really pushed the envelope and broke new ground? for one, I really appreciate Shirley Scott's LP on Strata East. While not as wild and blatantly 'out' as Larry Young, i find that her 'one for me' steers largely clear of the greasy bluesy soul-jazz styles that most organists worked in. It shows she had a different conception of what organ can do, and it's innovative and fresh but in a very subtle way that I find to be very dignified and pretty profound.
amen. One organist who I think has the most distinctive style is Patton. He's almost deliberately un-flashy. It think it was a clever and bold move when everyone else was getting branded as JS sound a like. On some tracks I find he meanders too much, but when the rhythm section's pushing him along it works well. I mostly like his work for the chemistry with Grant Green on this LP and on the guitarist's own Iron City.
For the reasons stated by F-16, I've always preferred Jack McDuff or Jimmy McGriff. They are both excellent organists, but I find McDuff's work to be more moody and evocative emotionally, than McGriff's more straight-ahead style. Plus, I love McDuff's treatment of ballads (e.g., "Shadow of Your Smile" off the "Tobacco Road" LP) relative to McGriff's interpretations of them. Yet, when it comes to organists, my favorite is Charles Earland's late 60s/early 70s material (before he switched to electric piano).
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
His finest moment: 1969's Understanding. I know I've big-upped this album every chance I got, but since we touched on the subject of organ players going "avant-garde," this LP must be mentioned. Patton is playing "in," saxophonist Harold Alexander is playing "out," and you'd expect it to be mismatch of the century, but no - this works. They play off each other quite well, and it's too bad this was one of Patton's last LP's for a long time.
Billy Larkin and Dave Lewis probably wouldn't be considered "innovators" - especially since their songs averaged around three minutes apiece, which is short for a jazz musician. But I like their stuff a lot. Larkin (& the Delegates) recorded a gang of LP's for Aura/World Pacific in the sixties; Dave Lewis had an album on A&M, Little Green Thing, and was highly influential on the Pacific Northwest rock scene (including the Kingsmen, who recorded a few of his tunes).
love. love, love that version, in fact that's the record i reached for when this thread started. mcduff all day. mcgriff was basically a really good blues player (which is what he always considered himself to be) and he has only like 1-2 essential albums and even then i almost never pull them out whereas brother jack has at least 5-8 albums that get visited fairly often.
other organist i admire that havn't been mentioned:
-paul griffin (ain't never gonna do it without the fez on!!)
-rhoda scott
-ceasar frazier
-freddie roach
for my money, groove holmes had the best basslines.
this should not be overlooked: "Brother" Jack. That's cool.
I have it and most dig the track "Stone" but to be honest I prefer the Bryant sides. Did Mason ever record with anyone else?
love Mason of course, and speaking of obscure organists playing great solos,please check Shelton Laster solo in "Flood in Franklin Park" off Grant Green's "Live at the Lighthouse": absolutely rockin' perfect !
Reuben Wilson anyone ? He never went "out" yet he experimented a bit in "set us free" with choirs vibes and percussions .. some of his jams on those couple of Blue Note albums are great too...
Charles Kynard : his prestige albums are great but his later records for Mainstream are a bit overrated...
Johnny Hammond: my favourite Lp of his is "Soul Talk", he was very good with ballads...
esp. his Capitol single "Mighty Low" b/w "Count's Basement"
Respect. Got 'Mr Fink Pts 1&2' rolling in the radio show tonight.
...never late... mcduffin you too ?