I didn't realise she wrote her own stuff ? Thats improved my opinion. How much is she responsible for.. just lyrics or what ?
I don't know. As a product.. as a marketing campaign story, she's fucking brilliant.. deserves huge credit, but in terms of breaking new artistic ground she's nothing remarkable.
I'd like to see her go in a completely different direction.. totally tone everything down and go totally organic.. fly in the face of everything she's known for.
The idea that anyone is looking at Paglia for thoughts on sex, sexiness and sexuality is laughable and depressing. The sexual revolution ended a long time ago. There is nothing to revolt against. Everything is allowed and everything is known.
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Mason than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny. They provide commentary in the same way ??? over-the-top, cartoony and devoid of feeling. Only she plays with sex, while he played with violence. Even their music sounds similar to me.
The idea that anyone is looking at Paglia for thoughts on sex [...] is laughable and depressing..
i get that she's not everyone's cup of tea (especially the caffeinated style) but can you expand on your opinion? i presume you have read "sexual personae"...
I think I see the point being made here but I react to it differently. IMO Gaga is high maintainence, but we are willing and able to Hear tHe art = Heart Heart = 3 3
Cosign on positive comment about how Gaga satisfies a part of the music demand that would otherwise be listening to soulful soul and not too country country records...making them more scarce. Why not flip a Gaga Record and buy a Beatles if that is the route you prefer? Both are pop and both are good records if they make the listeners feel good and inspired.
Also, refer to the post about passing up on good records. Unfortunately, people that are, "like an ass and only buy one" have to pay the opportunity cost. Which reminds me Carpe Diem!!!
All the expansion you need is within the pages of Sexual Personae.
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but her views are out there. If I missed the part where she herself exudes sexuality or heat or any understanding about the exchange of love and warmth between humans to accompany her tired ideas and (attempts) at intellectualizing, please point me in that direction.
If I'm going to read someone write about food, I need to believe that they actually enjoy eating.
Since Madonna "fell off" a good 10 years ago there have been a handful of Female Pop stars that have carried her "torch".
Gwen Stefani
Christina Aggie
Britany Spears
Solo Beyonce
Amy Winehouse (but needs more than one hit album)
even Mary J. Blige has Madonna-esque qualities.
This Gaga chick is gonna need at least a 5 year run in my book.
I'd like to see her go in a completely different direction.. totally tone everything down and go totally organic.. fly in the face of everything she's known for.
Well, here you go. No costumes, just a pretty voice and a piano:
SO FRUSTRATING.
Why does every woman with a hint of blond and/or guts and staying power have to be compared to Madonna?
I get the urge to do it in the cases of Spears and Xtina, but MJB and Beyonce definitely stand on their own. They would have been able to exist and succeed without Madonna. And even if they were influenced by her due to time and age, I don't think she was their biggest reference point.
SO FRUSTRATING.
Why does every woman with a hint of blond and/or guts and staying power have to be compared to Madonna?
I get the urge to do it in the cases of Spears and Xtina, but MJB and Beyonce definitely stand on their own. They would have been able to exist and succeed without Madonna. And even if they were influenced by her due to time and age, I don't think she was their biggest reference point.
I wasn't even born yet when Madonna first hit the scene. Comparing today's pop stars to Madonna is something the grown-ups do (i.e. Paglia). The high school kids who are listening to Gaga didn't know who the fuck Madonna was until Glee did an episode based on her music.
SO FRUSTRATING.
Why does every woman with a hint of blond and/or guts and staying power have to be compared to Madonna?
I get the urge to do it in the cases of Spears and Xtina, but MJB and Beyonce definitely stand on their own. They would have been able to exist and succeed without Madonna. And even if they were influenced by her due to time and age, I don't think she was their biggest reference point.
Mary and Beyonce arent in direct lineage. Of course not.
Mary J. Blige isnt underneath Madonna in terms of style.
But for Mary to not be influenced by the early NYC Madonna would be crazy.
Madonna's reinvention has been co-opted by Beyonce as well.
I'm not COMPARING, just sayin the MOLD is there and unavoidable.
To skip over those influenced Pop or R&B and jump right to Gaga is silly.
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Manson than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny.
Lady Gaga's VMA outfit, which I just saw on Yahoo's front page (didn't even know the VMAs were on). The dress is by Alexander McQueen, and I think it's pretty interesting in terms of construction (I know, this belongs in the Heels thread). I think she looks prettier than usual. Maybe it's the white hair and quail feathers or whatever that head thing is.
Her wardrobe changes were all sorts of crazy, but this one had me wondering, "What would PETA do?!"
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Manson than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny.
Excellent! I will submit my article on how to properly put records away in their sleeves tomorrow!
edit - is that article from the future??? is there anything in there about me finally finding a Blackman Akeeb LP?
Not to flog a dead horse, but to flog a dead horse - this Madonna reinventing herself thing that folks always go on about....she is a smart business person and like we all heard on The Wire, when the quality goes down, repackage that shit.
If you want to really talk about reinventing oneself, let's talk about Tina Turner and Marianne Faithfull...Cher even.
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Manson than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny.
Excellent! I will submit my article on how to properly put records away in their sleeves tomorrow!
edit - is that article from the future??? is there anything in there about me finally finding a Blackman Akeeb LP?
Not to flog a dead horse, but to flog a dead horse - this Madonna reinventing herself thing that folks always go on about....she is a smart business person and like we all heard on The Wire, when the quality goes down, repackage that shit.
If you want to really talk about reinventing oneself, let's talk about Tina Turner and Marianne Faithfull...Cher even.
Im not folks - u talkin to me.
Tina Turner was 'dead' for years before she resurfaced in the 80's as a 40 year old.
Cher was irrelavant in the 80's.
Madonna is MTV era theatrics. It set a NEW steez.
X-tina = Cher????
that paglia article continues in the times magazine for those interested:
Never has there been a breakthrough mainstream performer like Lady Gaga who obsessively traffics in twisted sexual scenarios and solipsistic psychodramas. All the frantic, flailing arm moves imposed on her by professional choreographers can't disguise her essential depressiveness and spiritual paralysis, registered in her videos in her often inert torso. . . .
With her garish costumes and piano playing, Gaga is often compared to Elton John. But Elton never tried to present himself as a sexual athlete. On the contrary, his sequined costumes were self-satirising, meant to amuse and render him harmless. And Elton's co-written original songs were well-constructed populist hits that won a huge, multi-generational audience and are still on the radio after 40 years. . . .Like Boy George (another of Gaga's claimed models), Elton sang feelingly, even soulfully (as in the tender Your Song), which Gaga does not. Furthermore, Elton's supple piano work was superior to anything Gaga has shown thus far. For example, in the video of her performance on BBC1 last year of an acoustic version of Poker Face, Gaga is pleased as punch with her ostentatious fusillade of empty flourishes, which are embarrassingly unsupported by the song itself.
Another[One] leading performer whom Gaga has claimed as an influence is David Bowie. Welcoming Gaga to her TV show in Los Angeles last year, Ellen DeGeneres went off on a servile, stammering encomium in which she implied that Gaga had surpassed Bowie???an idiocy that should have been instantly punished by a lightning bolt from Zeus. Bowie at his height in the early 1970s was one of the great avant-garde artists of the 20th century. He was the brilliant heir of Dada and surrealism. And in his daring gender-bending, he was a warrior for sexual liberation and for a redefining of the psychic fluidity of sexual orientation. Gaga does not belong in Bowie's company.
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Manson than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny.
Excellent! I will submit my article on how to properly put records away in their sleeves tomorrow!
edit - is that article from the future??? is there anything in there about me finally finding a Blackman Akeeb LP?
Yeah it was from the future - 16 hours after your original post to be precise - proof that Guardian journalists lurk on SS for "original" ideas. Rumour now has it they're running a feature tomorrow on afrobeat, in particular Blackman Akeeb and how to put his LPs back in their sleeves. You got 10 hours left to find a copy.
kinda makes me think sue sylvester's manic obsession with madonna in the glee episode might have drawn some inspiration from paglia. the tone of voice in that bitch fight just IS sue sylvester.
kinda makes me think sue sylvester's manic obsession with madonna in the glee episode might have drawn some inspiration from paglia. the tone of voice in that bitch fight just IS sue sylvester.
SO FRUSTRATING.
Why does every woman with a hint of blond and/or guts and staying power have to be compared to Madonna?
I get the urge to do it in the cases of Spears and Xtina, but MJB and Beyonce definitely stand on their own. They would have been able to exist and succeed without Madonna. And even if they were influenced by her due to time and age, I don't think she was their biggest reference point.
Paglia's frame of reference pretty much starts and ends with Madonna. The piece reveals everything about her own fading pop culture obsessions and nothing about Lady Gaga. Camille Paglia articles are always about her favourite subject - Camille Paglia.
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Manson than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny.
Excellent! I will submit my article on how to properly put records away in their sleeves tomorrow!
edit - is that article from the future??? is there anything in there about me finally finding a Blackman Akeeb LP?
Not to flog a dead horse, but to flog a dead horse - this Madonna reinventing herself thing that folks always go on about....she is a smart business person and like we all heard on The Wire, when the quality goes down, repackage that shit.
If you want to really talk about reinventing oneself, let's talk about Tina Turner and Marianne Faithfull...Cher even.
Im not folks - u talkin to me.
Tina Turner was 'dead' for years before she resurfaced in the 80's as a 40 year old.
Cher was irrelavant in the 80's.
Madonna is MTV era theatrics. It set a NEW steez.
X-tina = Cher????
I'm talking to everyone.
Madonna's everchanging looks, music and sales tactics are not news exclusive to this thread.
It has been discussed, written about, etc. from time.
My point about reinvention was not time-specific, I am not sure what Tina Turner's absence has anything to do with it and this is Cher in 1986:
1986, Madonna was in her leather jacket, blond mop Papa Don't Preach stage, she couldn't even spell theatrics then.
...and given Believe came out in the 1980s - I think there are a few hundred thousand club-goers who would disagree on the irrelevancy point. But that is getting off-topic.
Comments
I don't know. As a product.. as a marketing campaign story, she's fucking brilliant.. deserves huge credit, but in terms of breaking new artistic ground she's nothing remarkable.
I'd like to see her go in a completely different direction.. totally tone everything down and go totally organic.. fly in the face of everything she's known for.
???
;blap:
lol b/w
I have always put Gaga closer to Marilyn Mason than Madonna. If you want to be kind and call Gaga subversive, her tactics and aesthetics are much closer to Manson???s beautiful monster, costumed androgyny. They provide commentary in the same way ??? over-the-top, cartoony and devoid of feeling. Only she plays with sex, while he played with violence. Even their music sounds similar to me.
i get that she's not everyone's cup of tea (especially the caffeinated style) but can you expand on your opinion? i presume you have read "sexual personae"...
Cosign on positive comment about how Gaga satisfies a part of the music demand that would otherwise be listening to soulful soul and not too country country records...making them more scarce. Why not flip a Gaga Record and buy a Beatles if that is the route you prefer? Both are pop and both are good records if they make the listeners feel good and inspired.
Also, refer to the post about passing up on good records. Unfortunately, people that are, "like an ass and only buy one" have to pay the opportunity cost. Which reminds me Carpe Diem!!!
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but her views are out there. If I missed the part where she herself exudes sexuality or heat or any understanding about the exchange of love and warmth between humans to accompany her tired ideas and (attempts) at intellectualizing, please point me in that direction.
If I'm going to read someone write about food, I need to believe that they actually enjoy eating.
Gwen Stefani
Christina Aggie
Britany Spears
Solo Beyonce
Amy Winehouse (but needs more than one hit album)
even Mary J. Blige has Madonna-esque qualities.
This Gaga chick is gonna need at least a 5 year run in my book.
Well, here you go. No costumes, just a pretty voice and a piano:
Why does every woman with a hint of blond and/or guts and staying power have to be compared to Madonna?
I get the urge to do it in the cases of Spears and Xtina, but MJB and Beyonce definitely stand on their own. They would have been able to exist and succeed without Madonna. And even if they were influenced by her due to time and age, I don't think she was their biggest reference point.
I wasn't even born yet when Madonna first hit the scene. Comparing today's pop stars to Madonna is something the grown-ups do (i.e. Paglia). The high school kids who are listening to Gaga didn't know who the fuck Madonna was until Glee did an episode based on her music.
...sayin'
"gonna dress you up in my love"
Mary and Beyonce arent in direct lineage. Of course not.
Mary J. Blige isnt underneath Madonna in terms of style.
But for Mary to not be influenced by the early NYC Madonna would be crazy.
Madonna's reinvention has been co-opted by Beyonce as well.
I'm not COMPARING, just sayin the MOLD is there and unavoidable.
To skip over those influenced Pop or R&B and jump right to Gaga is silly.
You're not alone
Her wardrobe changes were all sorts of crazy, but this one had me wondering, "What would PETA do?!"
http://www.mtv.com/photos/vma-2010-lady-gaga-lookbook-mtv-style/1647403/5199362/photo.jhtml
wonder what cut she wore.
Excellent! I will submit my article on how to properly put records away in their sleeves tomorrow!
edit - is that article from the future??? is there anything in there about me finally finding a Blackman Akeeb LP?
Not to flog a dead horse, but to flog a dead horse - this Madonna reinventing herself thing that folks always go on about....she is a smart business person and like we all heard on The Wire, when the quality goes down, repackage that shit.
If you want to really talk about reinventing oneself, let's talk about Tina Turner and Marianne Faithfull...Cher even.
Im not folks - u talkin to me.
Tina Turner was 'dead' for years before she resurfaced in the 80's as a 40 year old.
Cher was irrelavant in the 80's.
Madonna is MTV era theatrics. It set a NEW steez.
X-tina = Cher????
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703466704575489883580364768.html
Yeah it was from the future - 16 hours after your original post to be precise - proof that Guardian journalists lurk on SS for "original" ideas. Rumour now has it they're running a feature tomorrow on afrobeat, in particular Blackman Akeeb and how to put his LPs back in their sleeves. You got 10 hours left to find a copy.
actually its not come from a void - gaga and manson did a collab on "lovegame"
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Lady-Gaga-and-Marilyn-Manson-Release-Love-Game-Remix-113917.shtml
i liked his rebuttal, but i liked the bitchfight - burchill vs paglia -way more - wicked!!!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonsimmons/julie/paglia.htm
kinda makes me think sue sylvester's manic obsession with madonna in the glee episode might have drawn some inspiration from paglia. the tone of voice in that bitch fight just IS sue sylvester.
GLEEK / GLEETARD OUTED ^^^^
Paglia's frame of reference pretty much starts and ends with Madonna. The piece reveals everything about her own fading pop culture obsessions and nothing about Lady Gaga. Camille Paglia articles are always about her favourite subject - Camille Paglia.
I'm talking to everyone.
Madonna's everchanging looks, music and sales tactics are not news exclusive to this thread.
It has been discussed, written about, etc. from time.
My point about reinvention was not time-specific, I am not sure what Tina Turner's absence has anything to do with it and this is Cher in 1986:
1986, Madonna was in her leather jacket, blond mop Papa Don't Preach stage, she couldn't even spell theatrics then.
...and given Believe came out in the 1980s - I think there are a few hundred thousand club-goers who would disagree on the irrelevancy point. But that is getting off-topic.