What's most depressing in the context of the WC debacle fall out is that virually every item on the BBC football gossip page since then relates to who's the latest EPL transfer target; and they are 99.9% foreigners.
WILL WE NEVER FUCKING LEARN?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
The problem is not so much that they're foreigners. After all, there can be little dispute that the overall level of club football in this country has improved technically as a result of the greater number of overseas players. No, the problem lies in the transfer market itself.
Thanks in no small degree to cunts like Abramovitch using the Premiership as a money-laundering operation, what was slowly becoming a stable, sensible domestic transfer market has now returned to its previous levels of ridiculousness. The effect this has had on the English game is that every half-decent lower-league player born in England who was ever tracked by a Premiership scout immediately has an extra few million quid added to their market value. This is because their agent or their club chairman has decided that this player is now "an England prospect", and this must be reflected in the asking price for that player's services. In many cases, such players have no top-level domestic/European/international experience - quite often they're promising at best, artless cloggers at worst. Compare and contrast with the number of overseas players on the market who are usually technically superior, have often played in one or more of the top European leagues, may have even been capped by their country, and who are available for roughly the same money as that 20-y-o English holding midfielder at Sheffield United or QPR who might fulfill his potential if the club were to stick with the same manager for more than a couple of seasons. But that's the free market for you.
It's odd how, in a country where deregulation of the market is almost a religion (the US), all the major sports have salary caps and draft systems which don't seem to interfere too much with the inherent competitiveness of sporting endeavour. The Premiership is like the Wild West in comparison.
It's odd how, in a country where deregulation of the market is almost a religion (the US), all the major sports have salary caps and draft systems which don't seem to interfere too much with the inherent competitiveness of sporting endeavour.
I read the Stan Collymore autobiography recently. Seems agents over here are just shysters, pure and simple. All looking for one or two big slices of cake from any deal; only offering players to clubs where the manager gets them (the agent) another kickback etc. Stan was pretty damning about the agent Rooney now has, or had at the time of the book.
The US system generally works but I recall in the NFL that there were a few players strikes in the 80s and early 90s and I remember John Elway being drafted by the Colts back in 1983 but refusing to go there. Result? He ended up getting traded to Denver and took them to superbowls and the Colts sucked very hard indeed.
The clubs are run very much like businesses though - if the franchise isn't making money, the city loses it's team and they go somewhere else. Imagine this happening over here? (MK DONS!!!??!?!)
For a man of avowed socialist principles, Sir Alex Ferguson is extremely assured at promoting Manchester United as a global brand. The launch of the club's new ??80m sponsorship deal with insurance company Aon, in Chicago on Wednesday, had the 68-year-old playing to the romantics attracted to the Old Trafford story as he outlined the path ahead. "The history of Manchester United is quite simple," said Ferguson. "It has always been based on young people and that's where we're more comfortable. I think our fans are more comfortable too." Supporters, cynics or a combination of the two might argue that success provides greater comfort. What they can all agree on is that the time for United's new breed to continue the cycle has arrived.
Two days after the sponsorship soir??e, United arrived in Toronto for their first friendly of the pre-season, a 3-1 win over Celtic, and Ferguson's increasing reliance on youth was evident immediately. A defence with an average age of 20 began the game ??? excluding 39-year-old goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar ??? and a forward line containing two teenagers finished it. This is not the date in the football calendar to be making watertight predictions, but the responsibility on young shoulders will not lessen once the task of regaining the Premier League title from Chelsea and reasserting Champions League credentials begins in August.
At the Rogers Centre on Friday night, before a crowd of 39,193 who had paid between $75 (??50) and $150 for the privilege, United's fresh-faced look was born of necessity. Rio Ferdinand, Gary Neville, Michael Owen, Antonio Valencia, Owen Hargreaves and Anderson are all missing the tour because of injury, while the six United players involved in the World Cup have been given 28 days off to brood on their various disappointments. New ??7m signing Javier Hern??ndez, the 22-year-old Mexico striker who scored against France and Argentina in the tournament, is the exception.
There are multiple factors behind the accelerated youth-training scheme at United, however, and not all sit comfortably at commercial engagements in America. While the wealth of Abu Dhabi allows for another round of extravagant spending at Manchester City, Ferguson ??? who protests there is plenty of money available at United, but that he sees little value in the market at present ??? spends modestly by comparison with the game's elite. Last summer, ??20m went on Valencia and Gabriel Obertan, while the outlay 12 months on currently stands at ??19m, for Hern??ndez and Chris Smalling. Interest payments on the loans taken out by the Glazer family for their takeover of United, meanwhile, stood at ??69m for last year alone.
A radical overhaul is not required of a squad that would have secured an unprecedented fourth Premier League title last season with two more points. The looming threat of time conspiring against a United squad containing 12 players aged 29 or more must be addressed, however, regardless of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes defying nature with every passing campaign. The lengthening injury record of Rio Ferdinand and Gary Neville confirms that not every veteran is immune.
Ferguson does not deny the need for his next generation to impose themselves on Old Trafford. "We expect progress. We have a strong belief in their abilities. They will eventually, at some point, be the next Manchester United," he said of those who featured against Celtic.
"We're good at bringing young players through like that. Some we have to sign, some we bring through from the academy. The important thing is it gives us a proper spirit at the football club to bring young players through the way we do. So I was pleased with most of them against Celtic. I thought when we changed the back four we were a bit rocky at times, but we got through it. I think there are really good talents in the striking department with young players like [Federico] Macheda, [Danny] Welbeck and Mame Diouf. They are very good talents I'm very hopeful about those and, of course, Hern??ndez joins us in Houston. So that's a good area of the squad. There is a good future there."
The dilemma for Ferguson, indeed any manager in his position, is how to give these players a consistent run to develop at a club where pressure for instant success is unrelenting.
Ferguson acknowledges: "We've a fine collection of young players who, if you don't give them an opportunity, are going to stagnate and move to other clubs who'll get the benefit of the work we've done with them. We've had experience of that, so we try to that as best we can make the right decisions about these boys' careers because most of them are very good, talented players."
What will have encouraged Ferguson against Celtic, and surprised many United observers in the process, was the leadership shown to Welbeck, Diouf, Macheda and Tom Cleverley by Dimitar Berbatov.
"His performance was excellent and what I was pleased about was, among the strikers we have with us at the moment, there is a manner of different combinations," the United manager said. "I thought he [Berbatov] and Diouf were very good in the first half.
"Diouf has got different talents to Macheda and Welbeck and he penetrates well. He is quick and aggressive, he is an interesting player,and I think that suited Berbatov. In the second half, he produced some fantastic moments and it underlines the one great factor; that class he has. You cannot take that away from him. No matter how many people criticise him, it never comes from inside our camp. We see that class. We know we've got the right player."
Amid the focus on the young, it is still within the considerable abilities of the 29-year-old Bulgarian, who scored the opening goal against Celtic, to bring something new to United next season.
This loosely translates as 'WE'RE ALL FUCKED, SELL THE CLUB NOW, WE'VE GOT NO MONEY'
Vidic is out the door. Scholes is too fucking old and no replacement in sight. Rio is crocked. Hargreaves is perma-fucked.
On the plus side:
There is zero expectation on Berba now so expect at least 20 goals next season.
Hernandez looks like a great signing.
Rooney is going to receive the type of post-WC barracking that inspired Gay Ronaldo's epic season.
I'll be logged onto John O'Shea's live chat this evening, hopefully not the usual experience you'd get from watching a Premiership footballer's webcam broadcasting from their hotel room in some foreign country.
:pasue:
Didn't know this was happening. Not the most attention grabbing name to kick things off with but thinking hard right now about any questions I could put to the thin Peter Kay which would make it through their no doubt stringent checks.
This is undoubtedly Berba's final make or break season, same with Anderson if Fergie relents enough to actually give him some games. Definitely feels like we're at the proper end of an era with the team, would feel a bit more confident if Fergie had shown faith in some of these players previously. And if we had a goalkeeper coming through as well.
I dunno even if we'd have the benefit of video. It's probably just someone typing on a keyboard on his behalf. ANOTHER SIGN THAT UNITED ARE COMPLETELY BROKE.
I dunno even if we'd have the benefit of video. It's probably just someone typing on a keyboard on his behalf.
My money's on Wes Brown. Needs something to occupy him while he's waiting for his farm to be built.
Perhaps it's time to start a petition for the merging of the two Manchester teams. Our history, ability to deliver results, managerial team + billions in the rather than owed to the bank = Win.
I wonder if Hodgson is tempted to try and bring Murphy back.
Alonso > Murphy.
Murphy > Lucas.
Murphy > Aquilani?
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Paul said:
Joe Cole just signed with Liverpoooooooooooooool.
Quite a nice surprise, that. I had entertained the thought that we might put in a bid for him, but I didn't expect it to come to anything. I'd assumed he'd prefer to stay in London.
However, if he is moving North, I don't expect he's coming to warm the bench, which raises the thorny issue of the Steven Gerrard-shaped lump that's currently in Cole's ideal position. I wonder if this won't be the last big announcement from us this week?
Citeh just signed Balotelli for 35 mil euros apparently.
I did want to see him play in England. Wrong shirt. But then Wenger would never spunk that much cash on a proven striker let alone a yoot. Will be interested to see him in action though.
EDIT: somebody I don't ever want to see in action again
Newcastle United's Joey Barton is convinced he is still as good as any midfielder in England and has set his sights on a return to the national team.
The 27-year-old's three years on Tyneside have been blighted by injuries and ill discipline, including his spell in prison, but he is determined to rediscover his best form on a sustained basis to finally provide a return on the Magpies' ??5.8m investment.
Barton, who captained Chris Hughton's side in Saturday's 3-0 victory at Carlisle, told the Evening Chronicle: "First and foremost, I want to do well for Newcastle United. But watching some of the performances in the World Cup over the summer I think that on form, I'm as good as anybody in this country.
"I don't say that lightly and I have to go out and prove that, but surely every midfielder in this country should be thinking like that? They should be looking at it and saying, 'That's where I want to be and that's where I can go.' That's my goal, and if I break into the England squad, it proves that I am doing fantastic for this football club. Firstly, I have to do well for Newcastle, though."
Barton played only a cameo role in last season's Championship title charge as injury once again sidelined him, and he is desperate to show the Newcastle faithful what he can do.
"I was an England international as a box-to-box midfield player," said Barton, who won his solitary cap against Spain in 2007, where he replaced Frank Lampard in the 79th minute of a 1-0 defeat. "I don't say this lightly, but I'm a much more rounded footballer now than I was when I first signed for this club. Injuries have restricted my chances to show that. If I can sustain fitness for a long period of time, I'm very confident of finding the form that got me in the England squad."
"Fabio Capello said he will pick players who were in form. Sometimes it hasn't happened like that and people have been picked when they haven't performed at club level. I think if we can get anyone from this football club into the England team, we're doing really well."
Barton refused, however, to criticise the England players selected by Capello for the World Cup. "They were built up to do quite well and I thought they would do well. Obviously it didn't really happen," he said. "People are going to chip in with their opinions, but none of us know. None of us played in that atmosphere or played in that pressure. As an Englishman, though, it wasn't good. Hopefully, this can force the game to change and now they will stop picking big names and instead pick players that are playing well. All of the successful countries do that."
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Never mind signing Joe Cole, todays BIG BIG BIG LFC news is that ex-Simply Red guitarist Sylvan Richardson is the club's new masseur.
I was an England international as a box-to-box midfield player,??? said Barton, who won his solitary cap against Spain in 2007, where he replaced Frank Lampard in the 79th minute of a 1-0 defeat.
I was an England international as a box-to-box midfield player,??? said Barton, who won his solitary cap against Spain in 2007, where he replaced Frank Lampard in the 79th minute of a 1-0 defeat.
Chortle.
I remember that game. What with Rooney getting none of the ball for a good half an hour, Barton on the pitch, and the England team being made to look like [strike]mon[/strike] muppets chasing Xavi's shadow, I figured there was a pretty good chance of some handbags.
Never mind signing Joe Cole, todays BIG BIG BIG LFC news is that ex-Simply Red guitarist Sylvan Richardson is the club's new masseur.
GTFOOWTBS! Serious? I know Sylvan from BITD. Great musician, the kind of talent that makes you want to pack up, whether on guitar, bass or drums. Apart from his time with Der Huckmeister, and as musical director for Cleopatra (remember them?), you can clock some of his later work with Andy Sheppard on Blue Note.
Obviously gifted fingers.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
J i m s t e r said:
DocMcCoy said:
Never mind signing Joe Cole, todays BIG BIG BIG LFC news is that ex-Simply Red guitarist Sylvan Richardson is the club's new masseur.
GTFOOWTBS! Serious? I know Sylvan from BITD. Great musician, the kind of talent that makes you want to pack up, whether on guitar, bass or drums. Apart from his time with Der Huckmeister, and as musical director for Cleopatra (remember them?), you can clock some of his later work with Andy Sheppard on Blue Note.
Obviously gifted fingers.
Yep, the very same. He took up massage a few years back now, and was working for Chris Hoy for a while.
Presumably we've given the job to him because money's too tight to mention.
Comments
WILL WE NEVER FUCKING LEARN?
Thanks in no small degree to cunts like Abramovitch using the Premiership as a money-laundering operation, what was slowly becoming a stable, sensible domestic transfer market has now returned to its previous levels of ridiculousness. The effect this has had on the English game is that every half-decent lower-league player born in England who was ever tracked by a Premiership scout immediately has an extra few million quid added to their market value. This is because their agent or their club chairman has decided that this player is now "an England prospect", and this must be reflected in the asking price for that player's services. In many cases, such players have no top-level domestic/European/international experience - quite often they're promising at best, artless cloggers at worst. Compare and contrast with the number of overseas players on the market who are usually technically superior, have often played in one or more of the top European leagues, may have even been capped by their country, and who are available for roughly the same money as that 20-y-o English holding midfielder at Sheffield United or QPR who might fulfill his potential if the club were to stick with the same manager for more than a couple of seasons. But that's the free market for you.
It's odd how, in a country where deregulation of the market is almost a religion (the US), all the major sports have salary caps and draft systems which don't seem to interfere too much with the inherent competitiveness of sporting endeavour. The Premiership is like the Wild West in comparison.
i hate this buying out investors shit
i don't think chelsea needs another kalou
but he could be DA TRUTH
60 mil and then loan him out West Ham like he's the new Tevez.
Any striker in the world or some hot prospect/unproven lightweight, I couldn't even see Man City doing this shit.
United paid close to ??20 mil for Anderson when he was 19 without any real return, this season is surely his last chance to make an impression.
I read the Stan Collymore autobiography recently. Seems agents over here are just shysters, pure and simple. All looking for one or two big slices of cake from any deal; only offering players to clubs where the manager gets them (the agent) another kickback etc. Stan was pretty damning about the agent Rooney now has, or had at the time of the book.
The US system generally works but I recall in the NFL that there were a few players strikes in the 80s and early 90s and I remember John Elway being drafted by the Colts back in 1983 but refusing to go there. Result? He ended up getting traded to Denver and took them to superbowls and the Colts sucked very hard indeed.
The clubs are run very much like businesses though - if the franchise isn't making money, the city loses it's team and they go somewhere else. Imagine this happening over here? (MK DONS!!!??!?!)
Potential sequel to my old avatar. I'll wait to see if he isn't waving goodbye to Old Trafford first though.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/17/manchester-united-sir-alex-ferguson
For a man of avowed socialist principles, Sir Alex Ferguson is extremely assured at promoting Manchester United as a global brand. The launch of the club's new ??80m sponsorship deal with insurance company Aon, in Chicago on Wednesday, had the 68-year-old playing to the romantics attracted to the Old Trafford story as he outlined the path ahead. "The history of Manchester United is quite simple," said Ferguson. "It has always been based on young people and that's where we're more comfortable. I think our fans are more comfortable too." Supporters, cynics or a combination of the two might argue that success provides greater comfort. What they can all agree on is that the time for United's new breed to continue the cycle has arrived.
Two days after the sponsorship soir??e, United arrived in Toronto for their first friendly of the pre-season, a 3-1 win over Celtic, and Ferguson's increasing reliance on youth was evident immediately. A defence with an average age of 20 began the game ??? excluding 39-year-old goalkeeper Edwin van der Sar ??? and a forward line containing two teenagers finished it. This is not the date in the football calendar to be making watertight predictions, but the responsibility on young shoulders will not lessen once the task of regaining the Premier League title from Chelsea and reasserting Champions League credentials begins in August.
At the Rogers Centre on Friday night, before a crowd of 39,193 who had paid between $75 (??50) and $150 for the privilege, United's fresh-faced look was born of necessity. Rio Ferdinand, Gary Neville, Michael Owen, Antonio Valencia, Owen Hargreaves and Anderson are all missing the tour because of injury, while the six United players involved in the World Cup have been given 28 days off to brood on their various disappointments. New ??7m signing Javier Hern??ndez, the 22-year-old Mexico striker who scored against France and Argentina in the tournament, is the exception.
There are multiple factors behind the accelerated youth-training scheme at United, however, and not all sit comfortably at commercial engagements in America. While the wealth of Abu Dhabi allows for another round of extravagant spending at Manchester City, Ferguson ??? who protests there is plenty of money available at United, but that he sees little value in the market at present ??? spends modestly by comparison with the game's elite. Last summer, ??20m went on Valencia and Gabriel Obertan, while the outlay 12 months on currently stands at ??19m, for Hern??ndez and Chris Smalling. Interest payments on the loans taken out by the Glazer family for their takeover of United, meanwhile, stood at ??69m for last year alone.
A radical overhaul is not required of a squad that would have secured an unprecedented fourth Premier League title last season with two more points. The looming threat of time conspiring against a United squad containing 12 players aged 29 or more must be addressed, however, regardless of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes defying nature with every passing campaign. The lengthening injury record of Rio Ferdinand and Gary Neville confirms that not every veteran is immune.
Ferguson does not deny the need for his next generation to impose themselves on Old Trafford. "We expect progress. We have a strong belief in their abilities. They will eventually, at some point, be the next Manchester United," he said of those who featured against Celtic.
"We're good at bringing young players through like that. Some we have to sign, some we bring through from the academy. The important thing is it gives us a proper spirit at the football club to bring young players through the way we do. So I was pleased with most of them against Celtic. I thought when we changed the back four we were a bit rocky at times, but we got through it. I think there are really good talents in the striking department with young players like [Federico] Macheda, [Danny] Welbeck and Mame Diouf. They are very good talents I'm very hopeful about those and, of course, Hern??ndez joins us in Houston. So that's a good area of the squad. There is a good future there."
The dilemma for Ferguson, indeed any manager in his position, is how to give these players a consistent run to develop at a club where pressure for instant success is unrelenting.
Ferguson acknowledges: "We've a fine collection of young players who, if you don't give them an opportunity, are going to stagnate and move to other clubs who'll get the benefit of the work we've done with them. We've had experience of that, so we try to that as best we can make the right decisions about these boys' careers because most of them are very good, talented players."
What will have encouraged Ferguson against Celtic, and surprised many United observers in the process, was the leadership shown to Welbeck, Diouf, Macheda and Tom Cleverley by Dimitar Berbatov.
"His performance was excellent and what I was pleased about was, among the strikers we have with us at the moment, there is a manner of different combinations," the United manager said. "I thought he [Berbatov] and Diouf were very good in the first half.
"Diouf has got different talents to Macheda and Welbeck and he penetrates well. He is quick and aggressive, he is an interesting player,and I think that suited Berbatov. In the second half, he produced some fantastic moments and it underlines the one great factor; that class he has. You cannot take that away from him. No matter how many people criticise him, it never comes from inside our camp. We see that class. We know we've got the right player."
Amid the focus on the young, it is still within the considerable abilities of the 29-year-old Bulgarian, who scored the opening goal against Celtic, to bring something new to United next season.
Vidic is out the door. Scholes is too fucking old and no replacement in sight. Rio is crocked. Hargreaves is perma-fucked.
On the plus side:
There is zero expectation on Berba now so expect at least 20 goals next season.
Hernandez looks like a great signing.
Rooney is going to receive the type of post-WC barracking that inspired Gay Ronaldo's epic season.
I'll be logged onto John O'Shea's live chat this evening, hopefully not the usual experience you'd get from watching a Premiership footballer's webcam broadcasting from their hotel room in some foreign country.
:pasue:
This is undoubtedly Berba's final make or break season, same with Anderson if Fergie relents enough to actually give him some games. Definitely feels like we're at the proper end of an era with the team, would feel a bit more confident if Fergie had shown faith in some of these players previously. And if we had a goalkeeper coming through as well.
My money's on Wes Brown. Needs something to occupy him while he's waiting for his farm to be built.
Perhaps it's time to start a petition for the merging of the two Manchester teams. Our history, ability to deliver results, managerial team + billions in the rather than owed to the bank = Win.
My mouth is watering........
I wonder if Hodgson is tempted to try and bring Murphy back.
Alonso > Murphy.
Murphy > Lucas.
Murphy > Aquilani?
Quite a nice surprise, that. I had entertained the thought that we might put in a bid for him, but I didn't expect it to come to anything. I'd assumed he'd prefer to stay in London.
However, if he is moving North, I don't expect he's coming to warm the bench, which raises the thorny issue of the Steven Gerrard-shaped lump that's currently in Cole's ideal position. I wonder if this won't be the last big announcement from us this week?
Kaka Gerrard Ronaldo
Higuian
???????
I did want to see him play in England. Wrong shirt. But then Wenger would never spunk that much cash on a proven striker let alone a yoot. Will be interested to see him in action though.
EDIT: somebody I don't ever want to see in action again
Chortle.
I remember that game. What with Rooney getting none of the ball for a good half an hour, Barton on the pitch, and the England team being made to look like [strike]mon[/strike] muppets chasing Xavi's shadow, I figured there was a pretty good chance of some handbags.
GTFOOWTBS! Serious? I know Sylvan from BITD. Great musician, the kind of talent that makes you want to pack up, whether on guitar, bass or drums. Apart from his time with Der Huckmeister, and as musical director for Cleopatra (remember them?), you can clock some of his later work with Andy Sheppard on Blue Note.
Obviously gifted fingers.
Yep, the very same. He took up massage a few years back now, and was working for Chris Hoy for a while.
Presumably we've given the job to him because money's too tight to mention.