That leaves the "warning swat," which is essentially just a physical form of redirection. I've come to believe that this method isn't the horrible form of abuse I once thought it was. When children are misbehaving due to mischievousness or lack of mindfulness, a soft, quick swat to the bottom can be a concise way of telling them, "You know you're out of line and I know you're out of line and you can simply stop right now and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, there will be further consequences." One effective thing about that form of message delivery is that it's virtually instantaneous. The child has no option to ignore or otherwise cut that message short. It also, if done calmly and discretely, saves the child face, in that it doesn't needlessly alert others to the need for discipline or blow the situation out of proportion.
Child psychologists have been touting the effectiveness of redirection for a long time, and while I understand people's aversion to this method, as long as the parent is not acting out of emotion or physically hurting the child, this is a very effective form of redirection. It can surprises the child, pull them out of their current state of mind, and put them in a more passive state where they will be more receptive to further instructions and dialogue.
By the way, I realize that I sound like I'm taking my views directly from The Dog Whisperer, and I would like to clarify that I believe that children are very different than dogs and should be not be treated as lower animals in any way. Still, a few of the fundamental philosophies that Cesar Milan uses on his show are somewhat analogous to human children, likely because at our core, we too are animals, and our psychology reflects that.
Who is Tommy Hall?? My dad would double the jug cord & whip the back of our legs with it. No biggie, bloody painful though. Definitely makes you think twice (or hide the jug cord beforehand).
Who is Tommy Hall?? My dad would double the jug cord & whip the back of our legs with it. No biggie, bloody painful though. Definitely makes you think twice (or hide the jug cord beforehand).
Nevermind, I get the Tommy Hall/electric jug reference now I think about it. Good one
I believe in righteous violence, which isn't accompanied by guilt. No man, woman, or child should think that they are exempt from the law of cause and effect.
Thanks for breaking that down, twoply. I still hope to be able to use other forms of redirection before I have to even resort to the warning swat. Frankly, I am scared that if I opened that door I would end up hitting out of anger.
My problem with any kind of physical punishment is just from my own personal experience. My mom did most of the disciplining, and she would basically use whatever was handy. Mostly it was the shoe. (Is that a Latin American thing? She could have one shoe off and slapping your behind faster than you could say boo.) Or worse, a crack on the head with a broom handle. To this day I can recall exactly how it felt and how humiliating it was.
My kid is only two right now and he knows exactly when he's doing something he's not supposed to do. He will look me right in the eye and say "Time out?" and then trot over to the corner of the room happily. We try to set clear boundaries of acceptable behavior so he knows when he's out of line.
I will say in my mom's defense that even though I rebelled a lot, I relied on her to be strict and needed it even when I wouldn't admit it. But I think there's a way to do that without resorting to physical violence.
Never. No matter how you rationalize it, hitting your kid is a parenting failure, straight up.
I think there's a fundamental flaw in this logic. It seems to imply that successful child rearing follows the most civilized and humane methods. I've worked in childcare off and on for about eleven years now, and I've worked with literally hundreds of children. As caregivers we cannot, for obvious reasons, lay hands on children in any way which might be deemed violent or otherwise inappropriate, so we do find peaceful and respectful methods of disciplining children. Those methods are generally adequate and often very successful, and for a long time those were the methods I personally found to be the best.
However, I cannot deny that I know many nice, well-adjusted, happy people who were raised by parents who would not shy away from using a quick, well-aimed swat as a method of communication. But I think that's where it's important to clearly differentiate between the many types of spanking. There's spanking out of anger and frustration (usually over a perceived lack of control), the method my father favored. This works only if you wish your child to learn to exhibit submissive behavior, but also often backfires. I can remember reacting to those spankings by matching or trying to out-do my father's aggression and exhibiting even more out-of-control behavior (what can I say, I was a bit of a spitfire). Another method is the solemn, "This hurts me more than it hurts you" method. That's not fooling most children. Kids generally aren't stupid and can recognize that their parents aren't making the big sacrifice they claim to be making. Plus it sends the message that if someone does something you don't like, you should take an orderly, stoic approach to physically punishing them. That's not an act worthy of respect in my mind.
That leaves the "warning swat," which is essentially just a physical form of redirection. I've come to believe that this method isn't the horrible form of abuse I once thought it was. When children are misbehaving due to mischievousness or lack of mindfulness, a soft, quick swat to the bottom can be a concise way of telling them, "You know you're out of line and I know you're out of line and you can simply stop right now and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, there will be further consequences." One effective thing about that form of message delivery is that it's virtually instantaneous. The child has no option to ignore or otherwise cut that message short. It also, if done calmly and discretely, saves the child face, in that it doesn't needlessly alert others to the need for discipline or blow the situation out of proportion.
Child psychologists have been touting the effectiveness of redirection for a long time, and while I understand people's aversion to this method, as long as the parent is not acting out of emotion or physically hurting the child, this is a very effective form of redirection. It can surprises the child, pull them out of their current state of mind, and put them in a more passive state where they will be more receptive to further instructions and dialogue.
By the way, I realize that I sound like I'm taking my views directly from The Dog Whisperer, and I would like to clarify that I believe that children are very different than dogs and should be not be treated as lower animals in any way. Still, a few of the fundamental philosophies that Cesar Milan uses on his show are somewhat analogous to human children, likely because at our core, we too are animals, and our psychology reflects that.
You didn't have to do shit. You had a wealth of options in a situation like that and you chose the one that ultimately gave you the most gratification. Don't hide behind the guise of "just handling your business," you f*cking pussy. Man up and admit that in this case you prefered reactionary violence to actually working out the problems in your life. [/b]
Batmon, you're a tool. I know you can see the difference between a swat on the behind and "slapping the alcohol" out of your ex-wife. Which, after reflection, I'm not sure I even believe you really did.
My comment to you, quoted above, was referring to your usage of the words "had to," which I took to imply that you felt you were manning up and taking care of business, as if you had no other choice. About gratification, I stand by that remark. I don't believe you weren't hitting her to be altruistic, but rather you were hitting her to punish or discipline her for hitting you. Both of those reasons are self-serving in nature. I wasn't meaning that you got pleasure out of the act, just that you were doing it for yourself, not for her. I think hiding behind the words "I had to do it" is weak. That's all.
Batmon, you're a tool. I know you can see the difference between a swat on the behind and "slapping the alcohol" out of your ex-wife. Which, after reflection, I'm not sure I even believe you really did.
My comment to you, quoted above, was referring to your usage of the words "had to," which I took to imply that you felt you were manning up and taking care of business, as if you had no other choice. About gratification, I stand by that remark. I don't believe you weren't hitting her to be altruistic, but rather you were hitting her to punish or discipline her for hitting you. Both of those reasons are self-serving in nature. I wasn't meaning that you got pleasure out of the act, just that you were doing it for yourself, not for her. I think hiding behind the words "I had to do it" is weak. That's all.
F*ck YOU DOGS - STR8 UP!
I held back on the insults and the kid gloves are off.
Feel free to try and "intellectualize" your stupidity.
You're obviously more emotional about this than I am, which I suppose is understandable. Thankfully, I don't know what it's like to be in a violent domestic quarrel. So I'll refrain from making any further comments. Still, I would encourage you to think further about whether or not I'm really being a hypocrite.
I used to get the wooden spoon, vaccuum cleaner tube, electric jug cord or lead fishing sinker for misbehaving as a youngster & I don't hold it against my parents one bit.
That's not the point. It's not whether you hold it against your parents or not that's the issue - it's whether you would do it to your own kids (and it doesn't sound like you have kids so it may be harder for you to weigh the decision involved).
That said - "lead fishing sinker"? Damn man.
Anyways, this conservation reminds me of a chat I once had with a college roommate. I was telling him that my parents would first tell me I was going to get a spanking...then let me stew with that...then spank me. And he thought this was barbaric. So I asked him if his parents ever spanked and he said, "not like that. I mean, if my dad got mad and lost his temper, he might smack me around but it wasn't premeditated."
[quoteII can't believe that the majority here beats their children (at least it looks like it by the replies in this thread). Uh, no. Pretty sure the majority opinion has been "I don't/won't spank." Step up your reading comprehension.
I only got spanked maybe a couple times...I didnt have to be spanked, my dad was 6' 10" 300+ lbs, a stern look and few steps towards me had me acting right for months...
Never. No matter how you rationalize it, hitting your kid is a parenting failure, straight up.
I think there's a fundamental flaw in this logic. It seems to imply that successful child rearing follows the most civilized and humane methods. I've worked in childcare off and on for about eleven years now, and I've worked with literally hundreds of children. As caregivers we cannot, for obvious reasons, lay hands on children in any way which might be deemed violent or otherwise inappropriate, so we do find peaceful and respectful methods of disciplining children. Those methods are generally adequate and often very successful, and for a long time those were the methods I personally found to be the best.
However, I cannot deny that I know many nice, well-adjusted, happy people who were raised by parents who would not shy away from using a quick, well-aimed swat as a method of communication. But I think that's where it's important to clearly differentiate between the many types of spanking. There's spanking out of anger and frustration (usually over a perceived lack of control), the method my father favored. This works only if you wish your child to learn to exhibit submissive behavior, but also often backfires. I can remember reacting to those spankings by matching or trying to out-do my father's aggression and exhibiting even more out-of-control behavior (what can I say, I was a bit of a spitfire). Another method is the solemn, "This hurts me more than it hurts you" method. That's not fooling most children. Kids generally aren't stupid and can recognize that their parents aren't making the big sacrifice they claim to be making. Plus it sends the message that if someone does something you don't like, you should take an orderly, stoic approach to physically punishing them. That's not an act worthy of respect in my mind.
That leaves the "warning swat," which is essentially just a physical form of redirection. I've come to believe that this method isn't the horrible form of abuse I once thought it was. When children are misbehaving due to mischievousness or lack of mindfulness, a soft, quick swat to the bottom can be a concise way of telling them, "You know you're out of line and I know you're out of line and you can simply stop right now and that will be the end of it. Otherwise, there will be further consequences." One effective thing about that form of message delivery is that it's virtually instantaneous. The child has no option to ignore or otherwise cut that message short. It also, if done calmly and discretely, saves the child face, in that it doesn't needlessly alert others to the need for discipline or blow the situation out of proportion.
Child psychologists have been touting the effectiveness of redirection for a long time, and while I understand people's aversion to this method, as long as the parent is not acting out of emotion or physically hurting the child, this is a very effective form of redirection. It can surprises the child, pull them out of their current state of mind, and put them in a more passive state where they will be more receptive to further instructions and dialogue.
By the way, I realize that I sound like I'm taking my views directly from The Dog Whisperer, and I would like to clarify that I believe that children are very different than dogs and should be not be treated as lower animals in any way. Still, a few of the fundamental philosophies that Cesar Milan uses on his show are somewhat analogous to human children, likely because at our core, we too are animals, and our psychology reflects that.
You didn't have to do shit. You had a wealth of options in a situation like that and you chose the one that ultimately gave you the most gratification. Don't hide behind the guise of "just handling your business," you f*cking pussy. Man up and admit that in this case you prefered reactionary violence to actually working out the problems in your life.
Who is Tommy Hall?? My dad would double the jug cord & whip the back of our legs with it. No biggie, bloody painful though. Definitely makes you think twice (or hide the jug cord beforehand).
Nevermind, I get the Tommy Hall/electric jug reference now I think about it. Good one
I thought you'd get it......btw....what the hell is an electric jug??
My parents wouldn't dare. I was only ever sent to my room once, when I was 3, because I hit my mom on the head with a wooden block not understanding that doing such a thing inflicts pain. Shit, I threw a party at my house where a knife got pulled, I yanked the doorhandle off the back door, and destroyed an old glass vase, created a month-long ant invasion, and I only got quasi-grounded.
But then again, I was born in Vermont to activist parents. I happen to think I came out alright, but then again I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever said anything disrespectful to my parents, so I don't really think they needed to act harsh.
The idea that parenting should involve some kind of fear or intimidation doesn't fly with me, especially having worked with hundreds of kids and witnessing how ineffective it is. But I'm not gonna judge people over it, don't need to diss anyone else to know I'm right. I just know I'd never do it with my kids.
getting put in your place is always going to feel humiliating, even if that's not the intent of the parent(s). but when you get told or slapped in front of other people, when you get called names, etc. - that shit is BS. Unless the kid is acting completely out-of-control and needs to be stopped RIGHT AWAY, there's just no call for it. discipline and making a lesson stick is one thing, but making a kid (anyone) feel small and embarrassed is a powertrip.
The other time I grounded myself was when I got suspended for three days for fighting. My Mom was pissed and my Dad was super calm and that scared the shit out of me. It was not in character at all, no anger, he seemed totally bummed. He asked me why I did it and I explained best I could, but felt like an ass...in the end, no good reason. I told him I felt stupid for fighting. And in the end he never grounded me or any of that, I just kept a low profile for the next few months and kept close to home. I wonder if he went inside himself and wondered if I was getting physical at school because I was taught so at home. If I were a parent who hit my kids, I'd definitely ask myself that, you know?
Your parents should be proud, as you are an extraordinary example of upright living. I read AKallDay's post in Lily's "25 Albums" thread (which was heartbreaking and beautiful) and then read this post, and it makes me realize how jealous I am of people who had decent parents. That's seems like such a childish thing to be jealous about, but it actually hurts me to read this kind of stuff.
I grew up dirt poor, white trash. Most of my friends were similarly situated. My dad had skipped out very early and usually only came around to pound on us and remind us that our mom was a drunk. Having a string of derelict assholes coming through the apartment to fuck your mom is confusing for a kid, especially when those dudes are cruel and unusual. My uncles were mean drunks who liked to throw cans of WD40 at me, hold me down and draw sailor tattoos on me (they were ex-USMC ["Uncle Sam's Misguided Children]) with permanent marker until I cried, and then beat me for crying, calling me "pussy" and "faggot" while they laugh, and drink, and laugh. Every man in my youth was an hate-filled violent drunk.
My dad kicked the shit out of me like his dad did him. It wasn't until I was well into my twenties that I realized how totally fucked up my dad really was. He was incapable of talking about his feelings. And honestly, I don't think he ever really even thought about his feelings in private. I'm sure his 5 ex-wives could confirm. I can't imagine a world where you are petrified of your own emotions. A big, macho, welder dude who could never tell his son "I love you" without either punching him or damn near running the other way once the words left his lips. I happened to be with my dad (a rare event) one day when he got a birthday card from his parents. He was standing there, kind of frozen, looking at this card. I asked him about it, and he looked at me, probably for the first time in my life (I was 22) with vulnerability in his face, and he said, "I think this is the first time my folks have said they loved me." He handed me the card, and all that was written below the HAPPY BIRTHDAY printing was "Love Mom & Dad."
He was seriously set back. Of course, he quickly did something stupid to cover up his feelings, but I got a glimpse at just how deeply my dad was destroyed by his parents. I made me sympathetic to him for the first time in my life. It was terribly painful to watch, but of course, he had no interest in talking about it, and it didn't change anything. He wanted to be a better dad, or so he said, but by that time I had raised myself and didn't really need his parenting (especially since it was so crippled, what good could it do, really?). It wasn't long after that when I almost put a sledgehammer through my dad's head. Violence begets violence. I didn't see my dad for 12 years after that. He might be dead now, I don't know. And honestly, what would it matter?
JRoot and I were talking about this last night. He's defending a guy on death row that has lived a life that is probably pretty similar to the lives of me and my childhood friends. What did they think would happen to us, really? You take a little, innocent, helpless child and subject them to all this shit. What do you expect? I got kicked out of every school in our town, I set fire to my last school, I chased a kid down the street with a machete (a gift from my uncle?) when he called me a name, I tried to shoot a kid in my grade (the gun was a gift from my dad?), and finally, I was locked up when I was 14. A juvenile delinquent.
Against all my own efforts, I somehow came out the other side able to lead a somewhat stable life. Most of my friends, though, weren't so lucky. They are in jail. They hung themselves in an orchard. They are homeless, or wandering. They are drinking themselves to sleep every night.
You'd think I'd feel good about getting out, but there's something sickening in being the keeper of all this. Not that I want to keep it. I wish I was more like my dad, I guess. But it's not easy to keep all these thoughts and memories out of me. I still see my dad in my dreams. And my dead uncles still haunt me. I was in a hotel room two weeks ago and watched "Goodwill Hunting" and cried like a fucking baby--totally unexpected. I'm a grown man now, it's taken me decades to "get over" my parents. Some days I would rather trade for the orchard.
If you'd allow me to cross-pollinate this thread with Lily's, I'd add this to my list:
It???s been hard doing anything Winter stuck around so long I kept trying anyhow and I???m still trying now Just to keep working just to keep working
I remember when it didn???t use to be so hard It used to be impossible A new season has to begin I can feel it leaning in whispering, ???Nothing???s lonely now??? Nothing anymore in pain
A tall shadow dressed how secrets always dress When they want everyone to know that they ???re around Leaning in whispering, ???My friend over there, don???t know what he???s talking about???
Did you really believe That everyone makes it out? Almost no one makes it out
I???m going to use that street to hide From that human doubt To hide from what was shining And has finally burned us out
But if no one makes it out How come you???re talking to one right now For once almost was good enough
The other time I grounded myself was when I got suspended for three days for fighting. My Mom was pissed and my Dad was super calm and that scared the shit out of me. It was not in character at all, no anger, he seemed totally bummed. He asked me why I did it and I explained best I could, but felt like an ass...in the end, no good reason. I told him I felt stupid for fighting. And in the end he never grounded me or any of that, I just kept a low profile for the next few months and kept close to home. I wonder if he went inside himself and wondered if I was getting physical at school because I was taught so at home. If I were a parent who hit my kids, I'd definitely ask myself that, you know?
Your parents should be proud, as you are an extraordinary example of upright living. I read AKallDay's post in Lily's "25 Albums" thread (which was heartbreaking and beautiful) and then read this post, and it makes me realize how jealous I am of people who had decent parents. That's seems like such a childish thing to be jealous about, but it actually hurts me to read this kind of stuff.
I grew up dirt poor, white trash. Most of my friends were similarly situated. My dad had skipped out very early and usually only came around to pound on us and remind us that our mom was a drunk. Having a string of derelict assholes coming through the apartment to fuck your mom is confusing for a kid, especially when those dudes are cruel and unusual. My uncles were mean drunks who liked to throw cans of WD40 at me, hold me down and draw sailor tattoos on me (they were ex-USMC ["Uncle Sam's Misguided Children]) with permanent marker until I cried, and then beat me for crying, calling me "pussy" and "faggot" while they laugh, and drink, and laugh. Every man in my youth was an hate-filled violent drunk.
My dad kicked the shit out of me like his dad did him. It wasn't until I was well into my twenties that I realized how totally fucked up my dad really was. He was incapable of talking about his feelings. And honestly, I don't think he ever really even thought about his feelings in private. I'm sure his 5 ex-wives could confirm. I can't imagine a world where you are petrified of your own emotions. A big, macho, welder dude who could never tell his son "I love you" without either punching him or damn near running the other way once the words left his lips. I happened to be with my dad (a rare event) one day when he got a birthday card from his parents. He was standing there, kind of frozen, looking at this card. I asked him about it, and he looked at me, probably for the first time in my life (I was 22) with vulnerability in his face, and he said, "I think this is the first time my folks have said they loved me." He handed me the card, and all that was written below the HAPPY BIRTHDAY printing was "Love Mom & Dad."
He was seriously set back. Of course, he quickly did something stupid to cover up his feelings, but I got a glimpse at just how deeply my dad was destroyed by his parents. I made me sympathetic to him for the first time in my life. It was terribly painful to watch, but of course, he had no interest in talking about it, and it didn't change anything. He wanted to be a better dad, or so he said, but by that time I had raised myself and didn't really need his parenting (especially since it was so crippled, what good could it do, really?). It wasn't long after that when I almost put a sledgehammer through my dad's head. Violence begets violence. I didn't see my dad for 12 years after that. He might be dead now, I don't know. And honestly, what would it matter?
JRoot and I were talking about this last night. He's defending a guy on death row that has lived a life that is probably pretty similar to the lives of me and my childhood friends. What did they think would happen to us, really? You take a little, innocent, helpless child and subject them to all this shit. What do you expect? I got kicked out of every school in our town, I set fire to my last school, I chased a kid down the street with a machete (a gift from my uncle?) when he called me a name, I tried to shoot a kid in my grade (the gun was a gift from my dad?), and finally, I was locked up when I was 14. A juvenile delinquent.
Against all my own efforts, I somehow came out the other side able to lead a somewhat stable life. Most of my friends, though, weren't so lucky. They are in jail. They hung themselves in an orchard. They are homeless, or wandering. They are drinking themselves to sleep every night.
You'd think I'd feel good about getting out, but there's something sickening in being the keeper of all this. Not that I want to keep it. I wish I was more like my dad, I guess. But it's not easy to keep all these thoughts and memories out of me. I still see my dad in my dreams. And my dead uncles still haunt me. I was in a hotel room two weeks ago and watched "Goodwill Hunting" and cried like a fucking baby--totally unexpected. I'm a grown man now, it's taken me decades to "get over" my parents. Some days I would rather trade for the orchard.
There really is nothing much to write about in this thread now. Opinions may vary - which is fine. We can all hope that as parents we try our hardest to do the right thing for our children. It's one thing to discipline your child and another to harm them - it's a very thin line and it's constantly moving which is why it can be so hard to be a good parent.
Bambouche's post - which I appreciate him writing despite how painful it must have been to revisit this shit - is why I don't really buy into the argument of: "I caught beat downs from my folks but I'm fine, so what's the big deal?"
I mean, sure. Kids can survive all kinds of stuff, but surviving isn't a validation of what they get put through; it neither justifies nor exonerates the experiences that tested them. I'm not particularly bitter that my parents used physical violence to punish me but I sure as shit don't think it was particularly useful for anything except for instilling terror.
Personally, I want my kid to respect me, not fear me. Unfortunately, as someone with a short temper, I realize that I'm painting that line pretty thin already.
Bambouche's post - which I appreciate him writing despite how painful it must have been to revisit this shit - is why I don't really buy into the argument of: "I caught beat downs from my folks but I'm fine, so what's the big deal?"
I mean, sure. Kids can survive all kinds of stuff, but surviving isn't a validation of what they get put through; it neither justifies nor exonerates the experiences that tested them. I'm not particularly bitter that my parents used physical violence to punish me but I sure as shit don't think it was particularly useful for anything except for instilling terror.
Personally, I want my kid to respect me, not fear me. Unfortunately, as someone with a short temper, I realize that I'm painting that line pretty thin already.
There is a BIG difference between spanking a kid and giving them a beatdown.
When I hear the word "spanking" I think of a couple of swats on the butt, seldom and far between.
What Bambouche described was straight up physical (and emotional)abuse.
If you don't know the difference you should probably never spank your kid.
i had alot of bullshit ideas about how i was going to parent before i became one....There is no blueprint for parenting and discipline....The only rules that apply to spanking is to never spank a child when your angry and never use spanking as the only form of punishment.....
I was hit on ocassion by my dad either upside the head or with a ruler to the buttocks. My moms would be begging for mercy sometimes! lol
never spank a child when your angry
Yea, usually people can't control how hard they hit when they're pissed off. It's really an unattractive sight as well. Even with dogs, some owners hit them hard cuz they're a dog and they're pissed off. It's pretty pathetic.
Thanks Bambouche for sharing your upbringing. Real heavy shit. But good to know you can still find some form of self-satisfaction even with those haunting memories inside you. It almost seems like some of us spend our entire lives trying to recoup something that might have been lost in our youth, for better and for worse. Definitely makes a hell of a story for you to tell. In my mind, sometimes a person's frailties and vulnerabilities make them an attractive person. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to you. I'm babbling but hope you get the idea.
My mom used to spank me with a cord, shoe, spoon, or whatever...but she stopped when I reached like age 12 i think. The last smack I ever got was probably when i was in grade 7. During that year, a teacher that liked me called her in for a conference and told her to stop letting me hang out with certain friends. Teacher said that those kids would never amount to shit and they would keep me down if i kept being friends with them.
After that meeting, they could never come over and I was not allowed to go over to their place. We still chilled when i would just go without letting her know were i was going.
I don't really know what but after that I never caught a beat down and I honestly never deserved one after that.
My moms got really cool with us, she let me grow up and watched with patience. During high school, she got called a few times when I was ditching and when I was asked about it, I had not choice but to tell her the truth. "I ditched to smoke a joint with angelica, shes cute mom." Mom would say "Ok, but you can't keep doing that. Make sure you go to class tomorrow. You know better than that." My mom ended up being the cool mom that would let us drink a few beers in the backyard on weekends and wouldn't bitch me out for missing a class. The thing is that now, I NEVER smoke and RARELY drink. And we're so much cooler now.
Now, when she's nagging me about something I tell her the truth - "STOP NAGGING ME MOM." she says, whatever I'm a your mother and I love nagging you so get over it. Shes pretty cool and has never wanted to spank my son when she watches him.
My mom ended up being the cool mom that would let us drink a few beers in the backyard on weekends and wouldn't bitch me out for missing a class. The thing is that now, I NEVER smoke and RARELY drink. And we're so much cooler now.
I'm torn about this part.
My mom let us drink a few beers and go to parties where she knew there was drinking, as long as A) she knew exactly where we were and B) we didn't drive drunk or ride with anyone else who was drunk. She said "I don't care what time it is, call me and I will come pick you up, no questions asked." As a result when I went to college I didn't feel the need to get wasted every night. Some kids I knew whose parents were superstrict went buckwild from the moment they left home, some with disastrous results.
That said, you can catch jail time these days if you are an adult present where there's underage drinking. But if you take the philosophy that kids are going to experiment a little, wouldn't you rather your kids do it under your nose? Or are you just condoning it?
Comments
My problem with any kind of physical punishment is just from my own personal experience. My mom did most of the disciplining, and she would basically use whatever was handy. Mostly it was the shoe. (Is that a Latin American thing? She could have one shoe off and slapping your behind faster than you could say boo.) Or worse, a crack on the head with a broom handle. To this day I can recall exactly how it felt and how humiliating it was.
My kid is only two right now and he knows exactly when he's doing something he's not supposed to do. He will look me right in the eye and say "Time out?" and then trot over to the corner of the room happily. We try to set clear boundaries of acceptable behavior so he knows when he's out of line.
I will say in my mom's defense that even though I rebelled a lot, I relied on her to be strict and needed it even when I wouldn't admit it. But I think there's a way to do that without resorting to physical violence.
You didn't have to do shit. You had a wealth of options in a situation like that and you chose the one that ultimately gave you the most gratification. Don't hide behind the guise of "just handling your business," you f*cking pussy. Man up and admit that in this case you prefered reactionary violence to actually working out the problems in your life. [/b]
11:40 PM on your Birthday ... go and have some damn LIBATIONS
My comment to you, quoted above, was referring to your usage of the words "had to," which I took to imply that you felt you were manning up and taking care of business, as if you had no other choice. About gratification, I stand by that remark. I don't believe you weren't hitting her to be altruistic, but rather you were hitting her to punish or discipline her for hitting you. Both of those reasons are self-serving in nature. I wasn't meaning that you got pleasure out of the act, just that you were doing it for yourself, not for her. I think hiding behind the words "I had to do it" is weak. That's all.
F*ck YOU DOGS - STR8 UP!
I held back on the insults and the kid gloves are off.
Feel free to try and "intellectualize" your stupidity.
F*ck U - U f*ckin HYPOCRITE!
LOL Hilarious.
Dude. Was that randomly around or did your family raise horses?
That's not the point. It's not whether you hold it against your parents or not that's the issue - it's whether you would do it to your own kids (and it doesn't sound like you have kids so it may be harder for you to weigh the decision involved).
That said - "lead fishing sinker"? Damn man.
Anyways, this conservation reminds me of a chat I once had with a college roommate. I was telling him that my parents would first tell me I was going to get a spanking...then let me stew with that...then spank me. And he thought this was barbaric. So I asked him if his parents ever spanked and he said, "not like that. I mean, if my dad got mad and lost his temper, he might smack me around but it wasn't premeditated."
I'm not sure whose experience was worse.
Uh, no. Pretty sure the majority opinion has been "I don't/won't spank." Step up your reading comprehension.
I thought you'd get it......btw....what the hell is an electric jug??
But then again, I was born in Vermont to activist parents. I happen to think I came out alright, but then again I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever said anything disrespectful to my parents, so I don't really think they needed to act harsh.
The idea that parenting should involve some kind of fear or intimidation doesn't fly with me, especially having worked with hundreds of kids and witnessing how ineffective it is. But I'm not gonna judge people over it, don't need to diss anyone else to know I'm right. I just know I'd never do it with my kids.
getting put in your place is always going to feel humiliating, even if that's not the intent of the parent(s). but when you get told or slapped in front of other people, when you get called names, etc. - that shit is BS. Unless the kid is acting completely out-of-control and needs to be stopped RIGHT AWAY, there's just no call for it. discipline and making a lesson stick is one thing, but making a kid (anyone) feel small and embarrassed is a powertrip.
Your parents should be proud, as you are an extraordinary example of upright living. I read AKallDay's post in Lily's "25 Albums" thread (which was heartbreaking and beautiful) and then read this post, and it makes me realize how jealous I am of people who had decent parents. That's seems like such a childish thing to be jealous about, but it actually hurts me to read this kind of stuff.
I grew up dirt poor, white trash. Most of my friends were similarly situated. My dad had skipped out very early and usually only came around to pound on us and remind us that our mom was a drunk. Having a string of derelict assholes coming through the apartment to fuck your mom is confusing for a kid, especially when those dudes are cruel and unusual. My uncles were mean drunks who liked to throw cans of WD40 at me, hold me down and draw sailor tattoos on me (they were ex-USMC ["Uncle Sam's Misguided Children]) with permanent marker until I cried, and then beat me for crying, calling me "pussy" and "faggot" while they laugh, and drink, and laugh. Every man in my youth was an hate-filled violent drunk.
My dad kicked the shit out of me like his dad did him. It wasn't until I was well into my twenties that I realized how totally fucked up my dad really was. He was incapable of talking about his feelings. And honestly, I don't think he ever really even thought about his feelings in private. I'm sure his 5 ex-wives could confirm. I can't imagine a world where you are petrified of your own emotions. A big, macho, welder dude who could never tell his son "I love you" without either punching him or damn near running the other way once the words left his lips. I happened to be with my dad (a rare event) one day when he got a birthday card from his parents. He was standing there, kind of frozen, looking at this card. I asked him about it, and he looked at me, probably for the first time in my life (I was 22) with vulnerability in his face, and he said, "I think this is the first time my folks have said they loved me." He handed me the card, and all that was written below the HAPPY BIRTHDAY printing was "Love Mom & Dad."
He was seriously set back. Of course, he quickly did something stupid to cover up his feelings, but I got a glimpse at just how deeply my dad was destroyed by his parents. I made me sympathetic to him for the first time in my life. It was terribly painful to watch, but of course, he had no interest in talking about it, and it didn't change anything. He wanted to be a better dad, or so he said, but by that time I had raised myself and didn't really need his parenting (especially since it was so crippled, what good could it do, really?). It wasn't long after that when I almost put a sledgehammer through my dad's head. Violence begets violence. I didn't see my dad for 12 years after that. He might be dead now, I don't know. And honestly, what would it matter?
JRoot and I were talking about this last night. He's defending a guy on death row that has lived a life that is probably pretty similar to the lives of me and my childhood friends. What did they think would happen to us, really? You take a little, innocent, helpless child and subject them to all this shit. What do you expect? I got kicked out of every school in our town, I set fire to my last school, I chased a kid down the street with a machete (a gift from my uncle?) when he called me a name, I tried to shoot a kid in my grade (the gun was a gift from my dad?), and finally, I was locked up when I was 14. A juvenile delinquent.
Against all my own efforts, I somehow came out the other side able to lead a somewhat stable life. Most of my friends, though, weren't so lucky. They are in jail. They hung themselves in an orchard. They are homeless, or wandering. They are drinking themselves to sleep every night.
You'd think I'd feel good about getting out, but there's something sickening in being the keeper of all this. Not that I want to keep it. I wish I was more like my dad, I guess. But it's not easy to keep all these thoughts and memories out of me. I still see my dad in my dreams. And my dead uncles still haunt me. I was in a hotel room two weeks ago and watched "Goodwill Hunting" and cried like a fucking baby--totally unexpected. I'm a grown man now, it's taken me decades to "get over" my parents. Some days I would rather trade for the orchard.
If you'd allow me to cross-pollinate this thread with Lily's, I'd add this to my list:
"Almost Was Good Enough (Once)"
It???s been hard doing anything
Winter stuck around so long
I kept trying anyhow and I???m still trying now
Just to keep working just to keep working
I remember when it didn???t use to be so hard
It used to be impossible
A new season has to begin
I can feel it leaning in whispering, ???Nothing???s lonely now???
Nothing anymore in pain
A tall shadow dressed how secrets always dress
When they want everyone to know that they ???re around
Leaning in whispering, ???My friend over there,
don???t know what he???s talking about???
Did you really believe
That everyone makes it out?
Almost no one makes it out
I???m going to use that street to hide
From that human doubt
To hide from what was shining
And has finally burned us out
But if no one makes it out
How come you???re talking to one right now
For once almost was good enough
There really is nothing much to write about in this thread now. Opinions may vary - which is fine. We can all hope that as parents we try our hardest to do the right thing for our children. It's one thing to discipline your child and another to harm them - it's a very thin line and it's constantly moving which is why it can be so hard to be a good parent.
I mean, sure. Kids can survive all kinds of stuff, but surviving isn't a validation of what they get put through; it neither justifies nor exonerates the experiences that tested them. I'm not particularly bitter that my parents used physical violence to punish me but I sure as shit don't think it was particularly useful for anything except for instilling terror.
Personally, I want my kid to respect me, not fear me. Unfortunately, as someone with a short temper, I realize that I'm painting that line pretty thin already.
There is a BIG difference between spanking a kid and giving them a beatdown.
When I hear the word "spanking" I think of a couple of swats on the butt, seldom and far between.
What Bambouche described was straight up physical (and emotional)abuse.
If you don't know the difference you should probably never spank your kid.
Never a truer word spoken
Yea, usually people can't control how hard they hit when they're pissed off. It's really an unattractive sight as well. Even with dogs, some owners hit them hard cuz they're a dog and they're pissed off. It's pretty pathetic.
Thanks Bambouche for sharing your upbringing. Real heavy shit. But good to know you can still find some form of self-satisfaction even with those haunting memories inside you. It almost seems like some of us spend our entire lives trying to recoup something that might have been lost in our youth, for better and for worse. Definitely makes a hell of a story for you to tell. In my mind, sometimes a person's frailties and vulnerabilities make them an attractive person. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to you. I'm babbling but hope you get the idea.
The last smack I ever got was probably when i was in grade 7. During that year, a teacher that liked me called her in for a conference and told her to stop letting me hang out with certain friends. Teacher said that those kids would never amount to shit and they would keep me down if i kept being friends with them.
After that meeting, they could never come over and I was not allowed to go over to their place. We still chilled when i would just go without letting her know were i was going.
I don't really know what but after that I never caught a beat down and I honestly never deserved one after that.
My moms got really cool with us, she let me grow up and watched with patience. During high school, she got called a few times when I was ditching and when I was asked about it, I had not choice but to tell her the truth. "I ditched to smoke a joint with angelica, shes cute mom."
Mom would say "Ok, but you can't keep doing that. Make sure you go to class tomorrow. You know better than that."
My mom ended up being the cool mom that would let us drink a few beers in the backyard on weekends and wouldn't bitch me out for missing a class. The thing is that now, I NEVER smoke and RARELY drink. And we're so much cooler now.
Now, when she's nagging me about something I tell her the truth - "STOP NAGGING ME MOM." she says, whatever I'm a your mother and I love nagging you so get over it. Shes pretty cool and has never wanted to spank my son when she watches him.
I'm torn about this part.
My mom let us drink a few beers and go to parties where she knew there was drinking, as long as A) she knew exactly where we were and B) we didn't drive drunk or ride with anyone else who was drunk. She said "I don't care what time it is, call me and I will come pick you up, no questions asked." As a result when I went to college I didn't feel the need to get wasted every night. Some kids I knew whose parents were superstrict went buckwild from the moment they left home, some with disastrous results.
That said, you can catch jail time these days if you are an adult present where there's underage drinking. But if you take the philosophy that kids are going to experiment a little, wouldn't you rather your kids do it under your nose? Or are you just condoning it?