BTW the song that should of convinced the East Coast was "HA" Juvenile!
I don't think that would be too off the mark. I definately remember that one getting a lot of peoples' attention.
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
By the time the Neptunes and Timbo were all over the radio here in NYC, cats like Scarface were already Canonized by The "East".
The Jay-Z/UGK collabo is very important to this discussion.
b/w
The HA single gained legs here in NYC when Jay'Z added his verse.
Around my way, Scarface was pretty much canonized around 1991. I don't think he had as much of an impact on the massive shoft that took place in the late 90s.
And the Jay-Z collabos w/ UGK and Juve, while perfectly acceptable turning points in their own right, did not precede the blow up of The Neptunes and Timbaland.
But the Neptunes and Timberland werent percieved as Souf artists to the degree as UGK.
Yeah, that's why I was saying I thought "The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened".
As someone attuned into the EC sound, I think "Ha" was one of the first shots across the bow that made cats like me wonder, "yo, wtf is up with this Southern shit?" That whole classic Mannie Fresh-era had folks on notice.
But as people pointed out, I don't think it was any single album, but rather a confluence of things all happening around the same time.
To me, Jeezy's ascendency is after the fact. I'd pin the moment more around whenever "crunk" became a mainstream term in Middle America - so Lil Jon certainly had a lot to do with it. And by the time everyone was jocking Houston rap, the East was officially all but over.
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
For me personally, I can pin it to an exact moment. I used to always talk shit to my boy from Miami about all the Southern stuff starting to bubble up in the second half of the 90s, saying that it would never, ever get any play in NY, basically dismissing it all as regional garbage. So he's up visiting in NY in probably '98, and we swing up to Olafs to grab some shorts, and as we're getting out of the car, someone on Hot97, probably Flex drops "Make Em Say Ugh!", we both kinda froze, he started clowin me hard, and I kinda deserved it. I don't know if that was the 'tipping point' per se, but that was definitely the moment when I realized that it wasn't only NY and the West anymore...
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
This couldn't be any less accurate.
How so?
Maybe I'm southern biased but the south was making headway before the rise of either The Neptunes or Timbaland. Maybe I'm reading the intent of your post wrong, but to me, "blew open the door for new rap coming from anywhere" suggests that people weren't even checking for southern rap at all. Which, in my experience, couldn't be further from the truth.
That same positioning that you mentioned didn't just come outta nowhere. Early adopters that had been checking for southern rap were finally justified when songs like "Ha" came out. The seeds were planted long before The Neptunes or Timbaland had to say anything about it.
not that i can really point to any one song/album, as has already been noted by others, but i would strongly suggest that by the time the following 2 singles came out, it was pretty much game over as far as who was running things:
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
This couldn't be any less accurate.
How so?
Maybe I'm southern biased but the south was making headway before the rise of either The Neptunes or Timbaland. Maybe I'm reading the intent of your post wrong, but to me, "blew open the door for new rap coming from anywhere" suggests that people weren't even checking for southern rap at all. Which, in my experience, couldn't be further from the truth.
That same positioning that you mentioned didn't just come outta nowhere. Early adopters that had been checking for southern rap were finally justified when songs like "Ha" came out. The seeds were planted long before The Neptunes or Timbaland had to say anything about it.
Yeah, that's not what I was saying at all. It should go without saying that being the "best positioned" doesn't come out of nowhere. Obviously underground scenes had thrived in certain regions, and No Limit, for example, made inroads on a national level, but personally I think the early successes of the Neptunes and Timbaland with Nore, Jay, Ol Dirty, etc. made it okay to think bigger than a particular regional sound, and once NY heads were hooked on that more "universal" approach to rap, the door was open for fans to reevaluate all the regional hip hop, bounce, crunk, booty music that informed that universal melting pot.
Basically, I agree with all the other turning points in this thread, but I just want to add this one of my own.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
East Coast ain't realized shit until they acknowledge the greatness of Z-Ro.
In general, I think The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened.
This couldn't be any less accurate.
How so?
Maybe I'm southern biased but the south was making headway before the rise of either The Neptunes or Timbaland. Maybe I'm reading the intent of your post wrong, but to me, "blew open the door for new rap coming from anywhere" suggests that people weren't even checking for southern rap at all. Which, in my experience, couldn't be further from the truth.
That same positioning that you mentioned didn't just come outta nowhere. Early adopters that had been checking for southern rap were finally justified when songs like "Ha" came out. The seeds were planted long before The Neptunes or Timbaland had to say anything about it.
Yeah, that's not what I was saying at all. It should go without saying that being the "best positioned" doesn't come out of nowhere. Obviously underground scenes had thrived in certain regions, and No Limit, for example, made inroads on a national level, but personally I think the early successes of the Neptunes and Timbaland with Nore, Jay, Ol Dirty, etc. made it okay to think bigger than a particular regional sound, and once NY heads were hooked on that more "universal" approach to rap, the door was open for fans to reevaluate all the regional hip hop, bounce, crunk, booty music that informed that universal melting pot.
Basically, I agree with all the other turning points in this thread, but I just want to add this one of my own.
I dont understand your comment " More Universal approach."
Seems like dudes have this idea that NYC (cause lets be real - East Coast means NYC, cause y'all aint really talmbout -Newark,Baltimore,D.C.,Boston,Philly,Syracuse,Richmmond,etc.) were not listening,paying attention to,purchasing,dancing,copying what has been happening outside of the region.
What's up w/ the mythological nonsense? The early artists were travelling the World. Fresh Fest wasnt just the EC. Dudes werent shutting out fans outside of the region. Yall seem to make shit sound like the Wizard of OZ and shit.
And for the dude who got clowned by his boy when he heard Souf shit on the radio really just means u werent payin attention.
The Hot Boys ("We on Fire," "I Need a Hot Girl") because that's how Juvenile and Weezy got famous. Not saying they were the main ones, though. But that's what comes to mind when I think of 1990s/2000s popular southern rap.
And for the dude who got clowned by his boy when he heard Souf shit on the radio really just means u werent payin attention.
he started clowin me hard, and I kinda deserved it.[/b]
I guess well have to agree to, um, agree on this one, Batmon. But really I can admit that for me, before all that No Limit and Cash Money stuff blew up, a lot of what was coming out of the south wasn't really on the radar, just a whole bunch of music that would inexplicably buy up half the ads in the Source and never get any play. Obviously this excludes Scarface, Outkast and their affliates, and also, I was in high school at the time, so I wasn't really hitting clubs, I'm just talking radio play. I got over my saltiness once it really started popping, and I saw the error of my ways. But you really think NY was 'paying attention' before those two labels broke thru?
And for the dude who got clowned by his boy when he heard Souf shit on the radio really just means u werent payin attention.
he started clowin me hard, and I kinda deserved it.[/b]
I guess well have to agree to, um, agree on this one, Batmon. But really I can admit that for me, before all that No Limit and Cash Money stuff blew up, a lot of what was coming out of the south wasn't really on the radar, just a whole bunch of music that would inexplicably buy up half the ads in the Source and never get any play. Obviously this excludes Scarface, Outkast and their affliates, and also, I was in high school at the time, so I wasn't really hitting clubs, I'm just talking radio play. I got over my saltiness once it really started popping, and I saw the error of my ways. But you really think NY was 'paying attention' before those two labels broke thru?
No Limit moreso than Cash Money.
But any cat reading the Source back then knew of the artists/labels.
I wasnt coppin Esham but i knew who dude was. There was a gang of West Coast shit that didnt get to the clubs/radio in NY but rap mags were mentioning them.
And for the dude who got clowned by his boy when he heard Souf shit on the radio really just means u werent payin attention.
he started clowin me hard, and I kinda deserved it.[/b]
I guess well have to agree to, um, agree on this one, Batmon. But really I can admit that for me, before all that No Limit and Cash Money stuff blew up, a lot of what was coming out of the south wasn't really on the radar, just a whole bunch of music that would inexplicably buy up half the ads in the Source and never get any play. Obviously this excludes Scarface, Outkast and their affliates, and also, I was in high school at the time, so I wasn't really hitting clubs, I'm just talking radio play. I got over my saltiness once it really started popping, and I saw the error of my ways. But you really think NY was 'paying attention' before those two labels broke thru?
No Limit moreso than Cash Money.
But any cat reading the Source back then knew of the artists/labels.
I wasnt coppin Esham but i knew who dude was. There was a gang of West Coast shit that didnt get to the clubs/radio in NY but rap mags were mentioning them.
and here's an example of "payin attention".......
"n fact I packed my bags, and listened to e-40 Mac mall, c-bo, and other rappers you don???t know You???re narrow-minded and styles of mind you won???t find "
um, back to the south...
i think people have said it all...
"Ha" was a big one, Jay Z on a down south production which was then followed up by Cash Money dominating the clubs from 98-2001... DJ's in nyc had to buy those records (bling bling, i need a hot girl, back dat ass up, ) b/c people wanted to hear them... even songs that are in retrospect, minor tunes, like "Still Fly" were EVERYWHERE...
and YES, i feel like Timbaland and the Neptunes were a part of the picture... their sound was more COMPATIBLE w/ ATL or NOLA rappers than NYC boom bap... even tho Timbaland and the Neptunes had a lot of success (and ALOT of their initial success) w/NYC rappers, their sound is more of the south than of NYC
and lastly, the overwhelming sucess of Lil Jon was probably the nail in the coffin... funny he started w/ that Wings of the Morning remix that was such a big NYC record... but, yeah, stuff like Get Low, and Yeah, and that Youngbloods track were everywhere... too many NYC heads, this one was the final nail in the coffin... their hero Nas gets crunk:
man the thing u dudes are all missing (& keep in mind ive been in chicago for all this so this is about impressions more than firsthand obviously) is that the east coast is also a part of its own fall --
the biggest selling east coast records were happening around the same time as "ha" broke so it was definitely after that; the bad boy shit was breaking '97, '98, destroying billboard. then you got dudes like dmx, jay-z that were really hitting their commercial/artistic stride, lox/eve/ruff ryders, those albums were huge. i mean even bringing up timbaland/neptunes -- their biggest tracks were for nyc artists (jay-z, the lox, noreaga).
so to figure out the time when u get the first big southern joint to seem like it was shaking the foundations of all that was 'good' in east coast rap you've gotta talk later than cash money / no limit
but 'still tippin' -- at that point, nyc was far gone. what nyc rap records were selling in '04?
i cant find a listing of top ten records for these years -- something like that would probably be helpful here --
but if i were to guess, something like 'get low' might be where it became obvious that the clubs had really been taken over ... when 'big pimpin' and 'snoopy track' became the big rap club classics, the joints w/ ugk & juvenile. maybe when swizz fell off?? (hes back now but thats post southern takeover) swizz & murder inc were like the last nyers to make huge club tracks that crossed over. since then it was wave after wave of lil jon, momentary fascination w/ houston, then youve got snap & post-snap bedroom producers like drumma boy, zaytoven, nitti, etc
Comments
Yeah, that's why I was saying I thought "The Neptunes and Timbaland blew open the door for new rap sounds coming from anywhere, and the south was just the best positioned to rush through the door once it was opened".
add boyz in da hood. "dem boys" was a hot single.
the southern smoke and gangsta grillz tapes probably had a big part in making people wake up to the south too.
But as people pointed out, I don't think it was any single album, but rather a confluence of things all happening around the same time.
To me, Jeezy's ascendency is after the fact. I'd pin the moment more around whenever "crunk" became a mainstream term in Middle America - so Lil Jon certainly had a lot to do with it. And by the time everyone was jocking Houston rap, the East was officially all but over.
Just sayin.
This couldn't be any less accurate.
How so?
Quoted For Truth
When shit started to really pop off, where you had multiple Southern dudes balling at once I remember Lil'Jon, and Bone Crusher being big.
Florida.
Maybe I'm southern biased but the south was making headway before the rise of either The Neptunes or Timbaland. Maybe I'm reading the intent of your post wrong, but to me, "blew open the door for new rap coming from anywhere" suggests that people weren't even checking for southern rap at all. Which, in my experience, couldn't be further from the truth.
That same positioning that you mentioned didn't just come outta nowhere. Early adopters that had been checking for southern rap were finally justified when songs like "Ha" came out. The seeds were planted long before The Neptunes or Timbaland had to say anything about it.
Is this somehow not true in other genres or somehow especially noteworthy because it's from the south?
youngbloodz - damn - 2003.
Yeah, that's not what I was saying at all. It should go without saying that being the "best positioned" doesn't come out of nowhere. Obviously underground scenes had thrived in certain regions, and No Limit, for example, made inroads on a national level, but personally I think the early successes of the Neptunes and Timbaland with Nore, Jay, Ol Dirty, etc. made it okay to think bigger than a particular regional sound, and once NY heads were hooked on that more "universal" approach to rap, the door was open for fans to reevaluate all the regional hip hop, bounce, crunk, booty music that informed that universal melting pot.
Basically, I agree with all the other turning points in this thread, but I just want to add this one of my own.
I dont understand your comment " More Universal approach."
Seems like dudes have this idea that NYC
(cause lets be real - East Coast means NYC, cause y'all aint really talmbout -Newark,Baltimore,D.C.,Boston,Philly,Syracuse,Richmmond,etc.)
were not listening,paying attention to,purchasing,dancing,copying what has been happening outside of the region.
What's up w/ the mythological nonsense? The early artists were travelling the World. Fresh Fest wasnt just the EC. Dudes werent shutting out fans outside of the region. Yall seem to make shit sound like the Wizard of OZ and shit.
And for the dude who got clowned by his boy when he heard Souf shit on the radio really just means u werent payin attention.
Or Ludacris early shit, like that Area Code song?
I guess well have to agree to, um, agree on this one, Batmon. But really I can admit that for me, before all that No Limit and Cash Money stuff blew up, a lot of what was coming out of the south wasn't really on the radar, just a whole bunch of music that would inexplicably buy up half the ads in the Source and never get any play. Obviously this excludes Scarface, Outkast and their affliates, and also, I was in high school at the time, so I wasn't really hitting clubs, I'm just talking radio play. I got over my saltiness once it really started popping, and I saw the error of my ways. But you really think NY was 'paying attention' before those two labels broke thru?
This record is the fu[/b]ckin' shit.
i want that.
CMM
Don't forget Outkast and Jermaine Dupri's late 90s stuffz.
No Limit moreso than Cash Money.
But any cat reading the Source back then knew of the artists/labels.
I wasnt coppin Esham but i knew who dude was. There was a gang of West Coast shit that didnt get to the clubs/radio in NY but rap mags were mentioning them.
and here's an example of "payin attention".......
Mac mall, c-bo, and other rappers you don???t know
You???re narrow-minded and styles of mind you won???t find "
um, back to the south...
i think people have said it all...
"Ha" was a big one, Jay Z on a down south production which was then followed up by Cash Money dominating the clubs from 98-2001... DJ's in nyc had to buy those records (bling bling, i need a hot girl, back dat ass up, ) b/c people wanted to hear them... even songs that are in retrospect, minor tunes, like "Still Fly" were EVERYWHERE...
and YES, i feel like Timbaland and the Neptunes were a part of the picture... their sound was more COMPATIBLE w/ ATL or NOLA rappers than NYC boom bap... even tho Timbaland and the Neptunes had a lot of success (and ALOT of their initial success) w/NYC rappers, their sound is more of the south than of NYC
and lastly, the overwhelming sucess of Lil Jon was probably the nail in the coffin... funny he started w/ that Wings of the Morning remix that was such a big NYC record... but, yeah, stuff like Get Low, and Yeah, and that Youngbloods track were everywhere... too many NYC heads, this one was the final nail in the coffin... their hero Nas gets crunk:
the biggest selling east coast records were happening around the same time as "ha" broke so it was definitely after that; the bad boy shit was breaking '97, '98, destroying billboard. then you got dudes like dmx, jay-z that were really hitting their commercial/artistic stride, lox/eve/ruff ryders, those albums were huge. i mean even bringing up timbaland/neptunes -- their biggest tracks were for nyc artists (jay-z, the lox, noreaga).
so to figure out the time when u get the first big southern joint to seem like it was shaking the foundations of all that was 'good' in east coast rap you've gotta talk later than cash money / no limit
but 'still tippin' -- at that point, nyc was far gone. what nyc rap records were selling in '04?
i cant find a listing of top ten records for these years -- something like that would probably be helpful here --
but if i were to guess, something like 'get low' might be where it became obvious that the clubs had really been taken over ... when 'big pimpin' and 'snoopy track' became the big rap club classics, the joints w/ ugk & juvenile. maybe when swizz fell off?? (hes back now but thats post southern takeover) swizz & murder inc were like the last nyers to make huge club tracks that crossed over. since then it was wave after wave of lil jon, momentary fascination w/ houston, then youve got snap & post-snap bedroom producers like drumma boy, zaytoven, nitti, etc