I've actually never been to Slate.com so I don't even know if this is a soulstrut-approved site.
but in any case I think the author raises serious questions about the type of cultural alienation that may spell trouble for Obama in a general.
and this story has legs in my opinion. if the Bosnia sniper-gate thing can balloon into a 10-pager, no reason this shouldn't (though there's plenty reason it won't, namely the strut's affinity for I-hate-Hillary-porn and general downplaying of any misstep by Obama).
and I don't poast this is as an Obama-hater. I just think there may be a real issue here worthy of discussion.
Maybe you guys read something into it that I didn't? I don't know, I think he was speaking to the idea that politicians come into these places and use buzzworthy issues like, yes, guns religion and anti-x sentiment to obscure the real. If you listen to the entire statement, it's pretty clear.
Obviously, Obama didn't say this as effectively as he could have for prime time.
I think he was speaking to the idea that politicians come into these places and use buzzworthy issues like, yes, guns religion and anti-x sentiment to obscure the real.
...okay but the implication is that politicians do this because it's precisely these issues that resonate with the dumb hicks whose votes they seek.
Obama's statement said far more about his attitude toward these voters than it did about his attitude toward the pols who court them.
Interesting that nobody mentioned obama's statements since they became news this weekend, but the moment hillary dares to talk about what MSNBC, CNN and FOX have dedicated the past 72 hours to...all the hillary bashers come out to play.
Personally, i don't mind what he said, it sounds like something i would say...xenophobia/racism/hatred are sure as hell a result of bitterness. Not sure how gun-loving is related, that seems like more of a geographical thing (i've got friends in boondock areas of PA that had off from school on the first day of hunting season).
Anyway, the point is that regardless of what you think of his comments, Obama was admittedly inarticulate. I don't think Hillary truly believes Obama was trying to generalize lower class people, and maybe she is being disingenuios by taking advantage of his poor word choice. however, Obama is not doing himself a favor by saying "shame on you", or joking about her drinking beers in front of the camera (he did the same thing 2 weeks ago).
Just like her mild comments about Wright, this is another situation where she is saying what most democrats agree with. Maybe she is being shameful, but its just nagl for him to go negative on her at a time when he should be trying to clarify what he meant.
Interesting that nobody mentioned obama's statements since they became news this weekend, but the moment hillary dares to talk about what MSNBC, CNN and FOX have dedicated the past 72 hours to...all the hillary bashers come out to play.
I know huh? Jonny innocently asking "but whatever could you mean?" let's not play dumb. this was actually sorta big news. no one's pulling this out of nowhere. it just happened not to have been a big topic of discussion on the strut. (which is understandable).
Personally, i don't mind what he said, it sounds like something i would say...
word. but it's the kind of statement that could be a huge liability in the general. very Kerry-esque.
word. but it's the kind of statement that could be a huge liability in the general. very Kerry-esque.
i hope not. obama has been less guarded since his speech on race, which is a good thing. all these sound bite news stories are such trash. nobody wants to think/read/analyze anymore. they just want someone to give them a few reasons for justifying their political ignorance ( e.g.. i don't like obama because his reverand said we deserved 911).
you gotta give obama credit for what he said. maybe he was naive to think that he wouldn't get sliced up in the media, but if people were to get past sound bites and tabloid headlines, i don't think they would really give a sh*t.
so, let me clarify and say that i think he was inarticulate only because he should have realized that any isolated statement is game for a media blowup.
so, let me clarify and say that i think he was inarticulate only because he should have realized that any isolated statement is game for a media blowup.
No word on if Obama used more than three squares of toilet paper in the bathroom or if the fact that HE's RUNNING FOR THE GODDAMN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES - AN ELITE OFFICE - makes him an elitist.
Those comments on small town bitterness were facile and asinine and he is rightly being criticized.
why a person needs to be poor, god-fearing or gun-loving to take offense or exception to the remarks in question is beyond me.
Really? Seriously? You really think the following is asinine and offensive?
"Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter). [...]
But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. "[/b]
Anyone fooled by the media into taking this seriously as some evidence of his being out of touch has it backwards. I just wish that the Dems would get moderate on the gun issue so they might actually get some of the support from independents that they desperately need. It's a loser of an issue. And anyone who thinks Hillary doesn't think/say the EXACT same thing is crazy. Bill said essentially the same shit in '91.
I think people are so used to hearing and internalizing bullshit from politicians that they don't even take the time to consider what may actually be true about themselves when it's presented to them.
I think people are so used to hearing and internalizing bullshit from politicians that they don't even take the time to consider what may actually be true about themselves when it's presented to them.
I think its more a case of people hearing what they want to hear. With the trajectory of this campaign for Clinton, I think lot of people are looking for any reason to call Obama unelectable, and are jumping at this out of context sentence. This whole issue is manufactured, and its pretty clear he's talking about what people expect from government, not trivializing a certain culture. Already in this thread we've gone from
raises serious questions about the type of cultural alienation that may spell trouble for Obama in a general.
and this story has legs in my opinion....a real issue here worthy of discussion.
to
Personally, i don't mind what he said, it sounds like something i would say...
word.[/b] but it's the kind of statement that could be a huge liability in the general. very Kerry-esque.
So do we care about whether he's right, or whether out of context quotes can be used to fool uninformed people? And like the straw man issue of experience, does Hillary really want this election to be about out of context little snippets? She's got 35 years of those too...
What I want to know is why Hillary didn't come out in support of all those who support unrestrained antipathy. Oh, wait, I guess she tried with her comments about closed-door, elitist meetings in Lucifer's waiting room, San Francisco.
Jon Stewart added to her anecdote about learning to shoot a gun as a young girl, "and then I spent the next 35 years fighting to ban those guns"...
Also, to clarify, not trying to go at rootless, I'm interested in hearing from anyone who thinks the comment was notable for anything other than its likelihood to be misconstrued.
The reason "Bitter-gate"(as it's been dubbed by the press) didn't result in a 5-pager here is that it addressed "small town" America which quite frankly, the Strut doesn't seem to relate well to.
I'd like to see Barack give a similar explanation as to how the people in Urban areas turn to Guns and God without placing the blame on anyone but themselves.
Lol at "these types of voters". This mysterious block of downtrodden po folks who are downright o-ffended that this Barack Osama done got all high n mighty.
The data says people don't care. The only people who care are the media, who need to get mileage out of every little issue that comes up. It's their job. You're biting it hook line and sinker.
Fox news went out to small-town Pennsylvania and couldn't find one person that was offended by Obama's words.
Surely Obama has liabilities in a contest with McCain, but they are the same liabilities he's always had in that contest.
I'd like to know why Obama -- supposedly a devout Christian -- necessarily attributes these people's religiosity to "bitterness."
Why does HE attend church? And how would he explain the high rate of church attendance among his own African American community. Is that bitterness also? Or genuine faith?
And the gun thing is just way off. Gun rights are a wierdly bipartisan issue in my experience. It's not just pissed off unemployed steel-belters who "cling to guns." Many of my acquaintences (many of them very liberal) resent gun laws.
So yeah I think the quote is most notable because of its "likelihood to be misconstrued." But it also raises questions about Obama and how he actually feels about these issues and about this segment of the electorate.
(and I'm not interested in anyone changing the subject to Hillary. I'm not saying she's any more in touch with Penn voters than Obama.)
Lol at "these types of voters". This mysterious block of downtrodden po folks who are downright o-ffended that this Barack Osama done got all high n mighty.
The data says people don't care. The only people who care are the media, who need to get mileage out of every little issue that comes up. It's their job. You're biting it hook line and sinker.
Fox news went out to small-town Pennsylvania and couldn't find one person that was offended by Obama's words.
Surely Obama has liabilities in a contest with McCain, but they are the same liabilities he's always had in that contest.
again you are looking at this purely in the Penn primary context. the "data" that you allege says people don't care is liekly only pickin gup Dem voters, it is not picking up the many independents that you and the Obama riders continually cite as his strength over Hillary in the general.
what he has said (and what it indicates he thinks, and could possibly fuck around and say again) has the potential to alienate precisely these people.
You guys are reacting to the soundbyte - not the actual statement. He was talking about how politicians aim these "values" issues at smalltown America because that's what resonates when the jobs are gone, education and insurance are unaffordable, and there's no hope that anything's going to change.
that said, he spoke directly to his own religion in a subsequent statement - that when things get bad for him he absolutely does cling to religion. It is the bedrock in times of trouble. This is certainly not a revolutionary or offensive idea.
Obama's no Kerry - I think if you're paying attention at this point you can see how he responds to crisis is a lot different and he's not backing down from these smears (which is what killed Kerry).
Comments
Okay here's an article on the subject.
I've actually never been to Slate.com so I don't even know if this is a soulstrut-approved site.
but in any case I think the author raises serious questions about the type of cultural alienation that may spell trouble for Obama in a general.
and this story has legs in my opinion. if the Bosnia sniper-gate thing can balloon into a 10-pager, no reason this shouldn't (though there's plenty reason it won't, namely the strut's affinity for I-hate-Hillary-porn and general downplaying of any misstep by Obama).
and I don't poast this is as an Obama-hater. I just think there may be a real issue here worthy of discussion.
why a person needs to be poor, god-fearing or gun-loving to take offense or exception to the remarks in question is beyond me.
I was too busy kicking it with your girl to start a poast, sorry olde chap.
wacka wacka wacka
then how do you find the time to poast all your other dumb schitt?
i put my IPHONE on her headboard.
Obviously, Obama didn't say this as effectively as he could have for prime time.
...okay but the implication is that politicians do this because it's precisely these issues that resonate with the dumb hicks whose votes they seek.
Obama's statement said far more about his attitude toward these voters than it did about his attitude toward the pols who court them.
Personally, i don't mind what he said, it sounds like something i would say...xenophobia/racism/hatred are sure as hell a result of bitterness. Not sure how gun-loving is related, that seems like more of a geographical thing (i've got friends in boondock areas of PA that had off from school on the first day of hunting season).
Anyway, the point is that regardless of what you think of his comments, Obama was admittedly inarticulate. I don't think Hillary truly believes Obama was trying to generalize lower class people, and maybe she is being disingenuios by taking advantage of his poor word choice. however, Obama is not doing himself a favor by saying "shame on you", or joking about her drinking beers in front of the camera (he did the same thing 2 weeks ago).
Just like her mild comments about Wright, this is another situation where she is saying what most democrats agree with. Maybe she is being shameful, but its just nagl for him to go negative on her at a time when he should be trying to clarify what he meant.
I know huh? Jonny innocently asking "but whatever could you mean?" let's not play dumb. this was actually sorta big news. no one's pulling this out of nowhere. it just happened not to have been a big topic of discussion on the strut. (which is understandable).
word. but it's the kind of statement that could be a huge liability in the general. very Kerry-esque.
i hope not. obama has been less guarded since his speech on race, which is a good thing. all these sound bite news stories are such trash. nobody wants to think/read/analyze anymore. they just want someone to give them a few reasons for justifying their political ignorance ( e.g.. i don't like obama because his reverand said we deserved 911).
you gotta give obama credit for what he said. maybe he was naive to think that he wouldn't get sliced up in the media, but if people were to get past sound bites and tabloid headlines, i don't think they would really give a sh*t.
so, let me clarify and say that i think he was inarticulate only because he should have realized that any isolated statement is game for a media blowup.
BINGO. The most asinine argument yet. Nothing in American political history could ever top this.
No word on if Obama used more than three squares of toilet paper in the bathroom or if the fact that HE's RUNNING FOR THE GODDAMN PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES - AN ELITE OFFICE - makes him an elitist.
Really? Seriously? You really think the following is asinine and offensive?
"Here's how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long, and they feel so betrayed by government, and when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter). [...]
But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. "[/b]
Anyone fooled by the media into taking this seriously as some evidence of his being out of touch has it backwards. I just wish that the Dems would get moderate on the gun issue so they might actually get some of the support from independents that they desperately need. It's a loser of an issue. And anyone who thinks Hillary doesn't think/say the EXACT same thing is crazy. Bill said essentially the same shit in '91.
to
So do we care about whether he's right, or whether out of context quotes can be used to fool uninformed people? And like the straw man issue of experience, does Hillary really want this election to be about out of context little snippets? She's got 35 years of those too...
Also, to clarify, not trying to go at rootless, I'm interested in hearing from anyone who thinks the comment was notable for anything other than its likelihood to be misconstrued.
some choice sexist comments under that one.
It's beginning to appear that the only people concerned with "elitism" are the elites themselves. Which I find hilarious.
We can tie this back to The Wire Season 5 thread and the idea that the only folks who don't get it are the press.
And on a tangent - the actor that played managing editor Klebanow is now dancing on a table for Mohegan Sun. smh
an issue that may not put a significant dent in Hillary v. Obama may nonetheless blow up come Obama v. McCain.
I think the media -- among others -- are raising a legit issue about Obama's liabilities with these types of voters in November .
I'd like to see Barack give a similar explanation as to how the people in Urban areas turn to Guns and God without placing the blame on anyone but themselves.
THEN we'd have a
The data says people don't care. The only people who care are the media, who need to get mileage out of every little issue that comes up. It's their job. You're biting it hook line and sinker.
Fox news went out to small-town Pennsylvania and couldn't find one person that was offended by Obama's words.
Surely Obama has liabilities in a contest with McCain, but they are the same liabilities he's always had in that contest.
I'd like to know why Obama -- supposedly a devout Christian -- necessarily attributes these people's religiosity to "bitterness."
Why does HE attend church? And how would he explain the high rate of church attendance among his own African American community. Is that bitterness also? Or genuine faith?
And the gun thing is just way off. Gun rights are a wierdly bipartisan issue in my experience. It's not just pissed off unemployed steel-belters who "cling to guns." Many of my acquaintences (many of them very liberal) resent gun laws.
So yeah I think the quote is most notable because of its "likelihood to be misconstrued." But it also raises questions about Obama and how he actually feels about these issues and about this segment of the electorate.
(and I'm not interested in anyone changing the subject to Hillary. I'm not saying she's any more in touch with Penn voters than Obama.)
again you are looking at this purely in the Penn primary context. the "data" that you allege says people don't care is liekly only pickin gup Dem voters, it is not picking up the many independents that you and the Obama riders continually cite as his strength over Hillary in the general.
what he has said (and what it indicates he thinks, and could possibly fuck around and say again) has the potential to alienate precisely these people.
that said, he spoke directly to his own religion in a subsequent statement - that when things get bad for him he absolutely does cling to religion. It is the bedrock in times of trouble. This is certainly not a revolutionary or offensive idea.
a few choice soundbites + some well-funded 527s = another Kerry situation in '08.