Personally, if you are single and use a Hooker I won't lose any respect for you.
If you cheat on your spouse, I will.
what if your wife knows that you have prostitutes or a chick on the side and is cool with it? i guarantee that there are PLENTY of professional athletes/celebrities/politicians who have these types of "arrangements" with their wives. i'm not saying i approve, but if you take out the dishonesty factor, is going to a prostitute that big of a deal? what about just cheating - assuming your better half is down with it, can you even call it that?
Saying: people are re-raising the same point I made earlier in the thread...that ultimately, I find it interesting that paid sex is seen as a greater transgression than adultery.
I disagree with Saba's point: the nature of capitalism is to treat people as commodities. Prostitution, if anything, is just more honest about it but if you think about the other kinds of demeaning, physical labor that people - especially women - are asked to perform to earn a buck, I'm not sure how prostitution is any worse EXCEPT for the morality angle.
And I think that lies at the crux here. Deej is right to a point: yes, it's about the illegality of the act but I think the legal transgression here is relatively meaningless without the moral dimension - both in terms of Spitzer being a complete hypocrite (which, to me, is the #1 reason he's about to take a fall) as well as the general public distaste for prostitution, not to mention the media's love affair with further scandalizing a sex scandal. (Shit is like manna from Jah).
After all, if Spitzer was arrested for drunk driving - a serious offense that I'm sure people would be upset by - that wouldn't torpedo his career even if it'd be a black eye.
I will say though: I find it interesting how the emphasis in news stories as been on "prostitution ring" which gives the whole affair a vaguely RICO-esque air to it. Had Spitzer been caught getting head from a transvestite hooker in the front seat of his gubernatorial SUV, I wonder how this would play out differently, if at all.
Just because we live in a capitalist society not everything is for sale. We allow people to donate their organs but not sell them, place children up for adoption but not sell them. I personally dont have a problem with making a morals based decision even though I know many of my progressive associates here feel that any kind of moral judging is wrong.
Spitzer was well aware of how prostitution and sex are viewed in the political context. In fact, he often bullied his own targets by divulging (or threatening to divulge) their own personal secrets. So even though a drunk driving charge, a crime that is certainly more threatening to society than engaging a prostitute, may be excusable, He knew what he was doing and how it would be viewed. I agree with Rock, that this is about a breach of a fiduciary trust.
i think the idea of paying for sex is weird, whatever the gender
i guess there are exceptions. people who find themselves unable to be sexually gratified through other means due to disability, disfigurement, etc.
i am not saying that i oppose legal forms of prostitution per se, but as a general rule i think i do disdain the idea of people using it and would probably lose respect for someone if I found out they had done so. I tend not to judge but 'lose respect,' yes
i cant decide where it stands vs infidelity on the morality scale. i dont know that i have a firm opinion on that. it might be a case-by-case thing
Saying: people are re-raising the same point I made earlier in the thread...that ultimately, I find it interesting that paid sex is seen as a greater transgression than adultery.
i don't know the statistics, or if they even exist, but it is common knowledge that a significant amount of prostitutes are forced into the trade, via human trafficking or because they have drug addictions...or because they have no other way to survive. to me, there is more of a moral issue with prostitutes than with simple adultery considering the pro is always going to be somewhat unwilling (unless she got into the trade because she's a nymphomaniac).
in this case, the human trafficking element might be off the table because of the alleged nature of these girls (high priced models?). even still - i don't see where you are coming from, even with the example i gave of a spouse who allows her husband to visit a pro.
i would lose respect for someone who sleeps w/ a prostitute
More or less than finding out they're cheating on their spouse/sig. other?
And I'm curious if you'd feel the same way if it was a female client and male prostitute.
I maintain that people need to feel morally superior, by hook or by crook. Everyone has things they would NEVER do for a wide variety of reasons, the next guy's scale may be completely different. Bottom line is you only know what people tell you about themselves, or what you stumble upon, so our respect for someone based on what we THINK we know isn't worth a whole lot in the end.
Just because we live in a capitalist society not everything is for sale. We allow people to donate their organs but not sell them, place children up for adoption but not sell them. I personally dont have a problem with making a morals based decision even though I know many of my progressive associates here feel that any kind of moral judging is wrong.
Spitzer was well aware of how prostitution and sex are viewed in the political context. In fact, he often bullied his own targets by divulging (or threatening to divulge) their own personal secrets. So even though a drunk driving charge, a crime that is certainly more threatening to society than engaging a prostitute, may be excusable, He knew what he was doing and how it would be viewed. I agree with Rock, that this is about a breach of a fiduciary trust.
I actually agree with both of you on the latter point. And I'm not suggesting everything is for sale in a capitalist economy but prostitution is not like organ harvesting. Again, if you think about demeaning, physical work, I'm not sure how prostitution - in concept - ranks worse than being a field laborer or sweat shop work. The moral dimension is what makes the difference.
And let's be clear: personally, I've typically found prostitution distasteful to on a gut level though, if asked to rationalize why, I wouldn't be able to come up with an ironclad reason except if you're talking about human trafficking or an otherwise, egregiously exploited population being forced into sex work. But that's less about the sex work and more about the conditions under which they have to work and to me, those are two distinct issues.
In grad school, I knew an out-call escort (no, not in the Biblical sense of "knew") - her, myself and a mutual friend used to laugh over the internet reviews her customers left about her. She was part of what you might call the "privileged" sex working class: white, 30-something, middle class, who had the skills and options to pursue other work, but she preferred selling sex. And under those conditions, I couldn't pass judgement on her choices - she wasn't exactly the most "put together" I ever knew (read: she had a boatload of issues) - but she wasn't a 17 year old junkie getting pimped out in the Tenderloin either.
to me, there is more of a moral issue with prostitutes than with simple adultery considering the pro is always going to be somewhat unwilling (unless she got into the trade because she's a nymphomaniac).
Just a question. Did some trouble involve anything due to business conducted over state lines? I know that it can get the feds in on the action.
Yeah - the woman Spitzer hired came in from across state lines.
I think the more serious legal issue - for him - is the money game though.
the prostitution ring didnt lead to spitzer. spitzer lead to the prostitution ring. the feds were involved because they thought he was hiding bribes through a constructive wire fraud scheme, not because of the Mann Act.
Just a question. Did some trouble involve anything due to business conducted over state lines? I know that it can get the feds in on the action.
Yeah - the woman Spitzer hired came in from across state lines.
I think the more serious legal issue - for him - is the money game though.
the prostitution ring didnt lead to spitzer. spitzer lead to the prostitution ring. the feds were involved because they thought he was hiding bribes through a constructive wire fraud scheme, not because of the Mann Act.
Definitely.
What I'm confused about here is: did they think he was paying out bribes? Or taking them?
Everyone expects Cheney to be the embodiment of 'evil', that is why he is a triumph of managed expectations and image. No one will ever call him a 'crusader for the public good' with a straight face, not even at his funeral. Context is everything when it comes to scandal. Some folks just can get away with it, Spitzer obviously thought he was always the man behind the pen signing the indictments, not the poor sucker getting the bad news. Just how he saw the world, I imagine.
look, either you arent going to make the moral judgment and argue that visiting a prostitute is acceptable behavior for everyone, or you are going to condemn everyone for it. You can't cherry-pick (no pun intended) and claim only Republicans are reprehensable for using prostitutes, but its only a private family matter for democrats.
Comments
Destroying your entire political career over paid sex - priceless
what if your wife knows that you have prostitutes or a chick on the side and is cool with it? i guarantee that there are PLENTY of professional athletes/celebrities/politicians who have these types of "arrangements" with their wives. i'm not saying i approve, but if you take out the dishonesty factor, is going to a prostitute that big of a deal? what about just cheating - assuming your better half is down with it, can you even call it that?
"Erudition" must be slang for "speaks English!"
But part of the fun is the sign language and giggles!
Prostitutes are people too you know.
Bleeped, of course, which only made it funnier.
I disagree with Saba's point: the nature of capitalism is to treat people as commodities. Prostitution, if anything, is just more honest about it but if you think about the other kinds of demeaning, physical labor that people - especially women - are asked to perform to earn a buck, I'm not sure how prostitution is any worse EXCEPT for the morality angle.
And I think that lies at the crux here. Deej is right to a point: yes, it's about the illegality of the act but I think the legal transgression here is relatively meaningless without the moral dimension - both in terms of Spitzer being a complete hypocrite (which, to me, is the #1 reason he's about to take a fall) as well as the general public distaste for prostitution, not to mention the media's love affair with further scandalizing a sex scandal. (Shit is like manna from Jah).
After all, if Spitzer was arrested for drunk driving - a serious offense that I'm sure people would be upset by - that wouldn't torpedo his career even if it'd be a black eye.
I will say though: I find it interesting how the emphasis in news stories as been on "prostitution ring" which gives the whole affair a vaguely RICO-esque air to it. Had Spitzer been caught getting head from a transvestite hooker in the front seat of his gubernatorial SUV, I wonder how this would play out differently, if at all.
I don't think a copy of Salt would buy you more than an hour with a 3 diamond "service provider."
More or less than finding out they're cheating on their spouse/sig. other?
And I'm curious if you'd feel the same way if it was a female client and male prostitute.
Spitzer was well aware of how prostitution and sex are viewed in the political context. In fact, he often bullied his own targets by divulging (or threatening to divulge) their own personal secrets. So even though a drunk driving charge, a crime that is certainly more threatening to society than engaging a prostitute, may be excusable, He knew what he was doing and how it would be viewed. I agree with Rock, that this is about a breach of a fiduciary trust.
i guess there are exceptions. people who find themselves unable to be sexually gratified through other means due to disability, disfigurement, etc.
i am not saying that i oppose legal forms of prostitution per se, but as a general rule i think i do disdain the idea of people using it and would probably lose respect for someone if I found out they had done so. I tend not to judge but 'lose respect,' yes
i cant decide where it stands vs infidelity on the morality scale. i dont know that i have a firm opinion on that. it might be a case-by-case thing
i don't know the statistics, or if they even exist, but it is common knowledge that a significant amount of prostitutes are forced into the trade, via human trafficking or because they have drug addictions...or because they have no other way to survive. to me, there is more of a moral issue with prostitutes than with simple adultery considering the pro is always going to be somewhat unwilling (unless she got into the trade because she's a nymphomaniac).
in this case, the human trafficking element might be off the table because of the alleged nature of these girls (high priced models?). even still - i don't see where you are coming from, even with the example i gave of a spouse who allows her husband to visit a pro.
I maintain that people need to feel morally superior, by hook or by crook. Everyone has things they would NEVER do for a wide variety of reasons, the next guy's scale may be completely different. Bottom line is you only know what people tell you about themselves, or what you stumble upon, so our respect for someone based on what we THINK we know isn't worth a whole lot in the end.
Puritan-strut REVEALED!
I actually agree with both of you on the latter point. And I'm not suggesting everything is for sale in a capitalist economy but prostitution is not like organ harvesting. Again, if you think about demeaning, physical work, I'm not sure how prostitution - in concept - ranks worse than being a field laborer or sweat shop work. The moral dimension is what makes the difference.
And let's be clear: personally, I've typically found prostitution distasteful to on a gut level though, if asked to rationalize why, I wouldn't be able to come up with an ironclad reason except if you're talking about human trafficking or an otherwise, egregiously exploited population being forced into sex work. But that's less about the sex work and more about the conditions under which they have to work and to me, those are two distinct issues.
In grad school, I knew an out-call escort (no, not in the Biblical sense of "knew") - her, myself and a mutual friend used to laugh over the internet reviews her customers left about her. She was part of what you might call the "privileged" sex working class: white, 30-something, middle class, who had the skills and options to pursue other work, but she preferred selling sex. And under those conditions, I couldn't pass judgement on her choices - she wasn't exactly the most "put together" I ever knew (read: she had a boatload of issues) - but she wasn't a 17 year old junkie getting pimped out in the Tenderloin either.
Yeah - the woman Spitzer hired came in from across state lines.
I think the more serious legal issue - for him - is the money game though.
This is a very limited perspective on sex work.
Puritan-strut indeed.
the prostitution ring didnt lead to spitzer. spitzer lead to the prostitution ring. the feds were involved because they thought he was hiding bribes through a constructive wire fraud scheme, not because of the Mann Act.
Definitely.
What I'm confused about here is: did they think he was paying out bribes? Or taking them?
It all comes back to The Wire(s)
Right? You'd just think he'd know better...not like dude isn't schooled in the game.
This does raise the question: what was he contracting for that he couldn't get at home.
wait for it
thought he was in love with the hooker.
Everyone expects Cheney to be the embodiment of 'evil', that is why he is a triumph of managed expectations and image. No one will ever call him a 'crusader for the public good' with a straight face, not even at his funeral. Context is everything when it comes to scandal. Some folks just can get away with it, Spitzer obviously thought he was always the man behind the pen signing the indictments, not the poor sucker getting the bad news. Just how he saw the world, I imagine.
As Ronald Reagan said "its a time for choosing"