I contest that it is not sexism as much as it is disdain for a "politics as usual" mentality that has people grasping for "change and hope".
Many people, whether you are willing to admit it or not, see the Clintons as being part of a political "machine" that embraces many of the same basic political ideals as GWB. Not so much on specific policy, but on a pompous pedestal that separates them from those citizens who have realized it's time for change.
If it was strictly sexism, this kind of hatred would have raised it's ugly head when Geraldine Ferraro was VP candidate.....and it didn't.
you are missing krugman's point, he never says it has anything to do with sexism. obama supporters view him as a hero, and accordingly, they think hillary is the villain. its absurd. hillary supporters, such as myself, simply do not have that "venom".... why wouldn't we like a candidate who agrees with 95% of hillary's positions?
the issue of an obama "cult", in my opinion, is somewhat valid. the guy inspires and motivates people to such a degree, that they obviously have lost sight of who the opposition in this race is. if obama were not in this race, i think hillary's numbers against mccain would be much, much higher. the obama supporters (and i want to clarify that i am not talking about obama himself) are so fanatical about their hero that they have taken to using the same gop talking points that folks like rush limbaugh and ann coulter have been saying about hillary for years. "the clinton machine" "hillary's divisiveness" "hillary can't control her husband". please. this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
It hasn't been about the issues because there are no significant policy differences.
I think the difference in terms of fervor you see between Clinton and Obama camps is pronounced and important to note - Clintonites certainly appear more like the Dem party that couldn't get Kerry or Gore to the white house against a moron with a checkered past. The idea that Clinton would be doing better without Obama in the race is irrelevant. He IS in the race, and he got into it BECAUSE people were not too excited about Clinton.
I don't really agree with Krugman, who's mainly a blowhard anyway - people are excited about their "hero" because it's a close race. It's competitive. It's the playoffs, the superbowl. Perhaps Krugman should spend some time reminiscing about the lack of intensity of past Democratic races and where that got us.
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months. got all the "c*nt" and "b*tch" out of your system yet? lets move on...
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
It hasn't been about the issues because there are no significant policy differences.
I think the difference in terms of fervor you see between Clinton and Obama camps is pronounced and important to note - Clintonites certainly appear more like the Dem party that couldn't get Kerry or Gore to the white house against a moron with a checkered past. The idea that Clinton would be doing better without Obama in the race is irrelevant. He IS in the race, and he got into it BECAUSE people were not too excited about Clinton.
I don't really agree with Krugman, who's mainly a blowhard anyway - people are excited about their "hero" because it's a close race. It's competitive. It's the playoffs, the superbowl. Perhaps Krugman should spend some time reminiscing about the lack of intensity of past Democratic races and where that got us.
when he's not writing negative articles about Obama . . . and then writing negative articles about the negative reactions directed towards his negative articles.
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months. got all the "c*nt" and "b*tch" out of your system yet? lets move on...
It's not so much that people disagree with her stated policies, it's more that they don't TRUST her, therefore don't trust that her stated policies are what she is really going to proceed with if elected.
Hillary has a credibility problem, plain and simple.
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months. got all the "c*nt" and "b*tch" out of your system yet? lets move on...
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months. got all the "c*nt" and "b*tch" out of your system yet? lets move on...
Hillary will say anything she thinks sounds like it is "in the middle" to get votes. Obama says the right things, but reminds me an awful lot of Eliot Spitzer, who has turned out to be a complete douchebag.
this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months. got all the "c*nt" and "b*tch" out of your system yet? lets move on...
If there is not much significant difference on policy, isn't it all about who you prefer and why? Maybe to you the minutae of the policy differences are huge, but to the average citizen whom the Dems need to rally to win the White House, there are other factors at play. Sorry that 'personality' and 'inspiration' are beyond Hillary's grasp to win on, but making that a liability for Obama with this ridiculous 'Cult of Obama' crap is pretty desperate.
People are bound to be dissapointed in whomever is elected, it's inevitable. But for once many of us don't want to be dissapointed with who we chose to run in the election in the first place. If the Dems choose Hillary, it is pretty much like saying we have no new ideas, we have no alternative to the same shit we have run on (and lost)in the past. Maybe people are being superficial, but they are not voting for some jerk-off celebrity who is feeding them complete fluff, they are voting for a legitimate, qualified, excited, intelligent Democratic cadidate telling them all the things people want to hear. Hillary has tried to do the same, and can't match Obama in persuasiveness, and all this with many years of influence under her belt. Says something, doesn't it? That she can't win a general election. Dems want to win for a change.
Maybe people are being superficial, but they are not voting for some jerk-off celebrity who is feeding them complete fluff, they are voting for a legitimate, qualified, excited, intelligent Democratic cadidate telling them all the things people want to hear.
i think you prove krugman's point. "most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody. I???m not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality."
if people are supporting obama for superficial reasons, then why so much hate towards hillary? don't you think its a little troubling that obama supporters vilify hillary by quoting word for word, the same republican anti-hillary rhettoric as the fox news types? isn't it very likely that the reason she trails right now, despite her experience and the "clinton name", is because obama supporters are hillary-hating more than the gop? hillary supporters generally praise obama, but prefer hillary as their prez. if it was a two way street, i think hillary would be on cruise control right now. negativity works. i'm not talking about obama, btw, just his supporters.
yea, its on the obama cult! stop yelling "fired up" "ready to go" and listening to will i. am songs. pick up a newspaper or a political magazine. these threads are like politics by TMZ and Star magazine. i haven't heard a valid argument against hillary on policy in months.
Yeah, stop being so excited! This is the Democratic Party, we're supposed to grudgingly accept the establishment candidate that gets handed down to us. Stop cheering and go read a book!
Statements like these are part of the reason so many Obama supporters have so much venom for Hillary.
Also, as far as an argument against Hillary, I think people are responding to Obama's efforts, to some small degree, to move past partisanship and discuss issues in positive, hopeful way. This message looks good next to Hillary's "i've been a partisan target, I'll keep being a partisan target, and I dont care!"
This message looks good next to Hillary's "i've been a partisan target, I'll keep being a partisan target, and I dont care!"
well, i will co-sign harveycanal in saying, as a progressive, i'm down with this. it makes me nauseous to hear obama talk about his republican support.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I had a dream that I met Obama this morning, does that make me a member?
Of the Council on Foreign Relations? Quite possibly.
This message looks good next to Hillary's "i've been a partisan target, I'll keep being a partisan target, and I dont care!"
well, i will co-sign harveycanal in saying, as a progressive, i'm down with this. it makes me nauseous to hear obama talk about his republican support.
I hear you, but given her demonstrated (lack of) ability to pull independents, do you think swaying only the Democrats who didnt vote against Bush in '04 would be enough to avoid Kerry's fate? We're trying to win right, not just remain ideologically pure?
well, i will co-sign harveycanal in saying, as a progressive, i'm down with this. it makes me nauseous to hear obama talk about his republican support.
What makes me nauseous are people who treat politics like some "us against them" game when it should simply be "what's best for ALL of us".
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
This message looks good next to Hillary's "i've been a partisan target, I'll keep being a partisan target, and I dont care!"
well, i will co-sign harveycanal in saying, as a progressive, i'm down with this. it makes me nauseous to hear obama talk about his republican support.
I hear you, but given her demonstrated (lack of) ability to pull independents, do you think swaying only the Democrats who didnt vote against Bush in '04 would be enough to avoid Kerry's fate? We're trying to win right, not just remain ideologically pure?
Comments
you are missing krugman's point, he never says it has anything to do with sexism. obama supporters view him as a hero, and accordingly, they think hillary is the villain. its absurd. hillary supporters, such as myself, simply do not have that "venom".... why wouldn't we like a candidate who agrees with 95% of hillary's positions?
the issue of an obama "cult", in my opinion, is somewhat valid. the guy inspires and motivates people to such a degree, that they obviously have lost sight of who the opposition in this race is. if obama were not in this race, i think hillary's numbers against mccain would be much, much higher. the obama supporters (and i want to clarify that i am not talking about obama himself) are so fanatical about their hero that they have taken to using the same gop talking points that folks like rush limbaugh and ann coulter have been saying about hillary for years. "the clinton machine" "hillary's divisiveness" "hillary can't control her husband". please. this debate has NEVER been about the issues which is sort of pathetic.
Sure but that's not on Obama/Clinton.
its cause on the issues, as you've repeatedly tried to point out, they hold the same views.
It hasn't been about the issues because there are no significant policy differences.
I think the difference in terms of fervor you see between Clinton and Obama camps is pronounced and important to note - Clintonites certainly appear more like the Dem party that couldn't get Kerry or Gore to the white house against a moron with a checkered past. The idea that Clinton would be doing better without Obama in the race is irrelevant. He IS in the race, and he got into it BECAUSE people were not too excited about Clinton.
I don't really agree with Krugman, who's mainly a blowhard anyway - people are excited about their "hero" because it's a close race. It's competitive. It's the playoffs, the superbowl. Perhaps Krugman should spend some time reminiscing about the lack of intensity of past Democratic races and where that got us.
yea, its on the obama cult!
when he's not writing negative articles about Obama . . . and then writing negative articles about the negative reactions directed towards his negative articles.
It's not so much that people disagree with her stated policies, it's more that they don't TRUST her, therefore don't trust that her stated policies are what she is really going to proceed with if elected.
Hillary has a credibility problem, plain and simple.
Yer mood swings are quite astounding.
You have, you choose to ignore them however.
Obama says the right things, but reminds me an awful lot of Eliot Spitzer, who has turned out to be a complete douchebag.
If there is not much significant difference on policy, isn't it all about who you prefer and why? Maybe to you the minutae of the policy differences are huge, but to the average citizen whom the Dems need to rally to win the White House, there are other factors at play. Sorry that 'personality' and 'inspiration' are beyond Hillary's grasp to win on, but making that a liability for Obama with this ridiculous 'Cult of Obama' crap is pretty desperate.
People are bound to be dissapointed in whomever is elected, it's inevitable. But for once many of us don't want to be dissapointed with who we chose to run in the election in the first place. If the Dems choose Hillary, it is pretty much like saying we have no new ideas, we have no alternative to the same shit we have run on (and lost)in the past. Maybe people are being superficial, but they are not voting for some jerk-off celebrity who is feeding them complete fluff, they are voting for a legitimate, qualified, excited, intelligent Democratic cadidate telling them all the things people want to hear. Hillary has tried to do the same, and can't match Obama in persuasiveness, and all this with many years of influence under her belt. Says something, doesn't it? That she can't win a general election. Dems want to win for a change.
i think you prove krugman's point. "most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody. I???m not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality."
if people are supporting obama for superficial reasons, then why so much hate towards hillary? don't you think its a little troubling that obama supporters vilify hillary by quoting word for word, the same republican anti-hillary rhettoric as the fox news types? isn't it very likely that the reason she trails right now, despite her experience and the "clinton name", is because obama supporters are hillary-hating more than the gop? hillary supporters generally praise obama, but prefer hillary as their prez. if it was a two way street, i think hillary would be on cruise control right now. negativity works. i'm not talking about obama, btw, just his supporters.
i wouldnt take it seriously
Yeah, stop being so excited! This is the Democratic Party, we're supposed to grudgingly accept the establishment candidate that gets handed down to us. Stop cheering and go read a book!
Statements like these are part of the reason so many Obama supporters have so much venom for Hillary.
Also, as far as an argument against Hillary, I think people are responding to Obama's efforts, to some small degree, to move past partisanship and discuss issues in positive, hopeful way. This message looks good next to Hillary's "i've been a partisan target, I'll keep being a partisan target, and I dont care!"
should we revisit some of Mr. Krugman's articles to try and determine why most of the venom "he sees" comes from supporters of "Mr. Obama."
Dissing his healthcare plans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html?_r=1&scp=6&sq=krugman&st=nyt&oref=slogin
Dissing him on the economy
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/07/opinion/07krugman.html?scp=7&sq=krugman&st=nyt
Dissing him as being partisan
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/28/opinion/28krugman.html?scp=9&sq=krugman&st=nyt
Dissing him as unconvinceing populist
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/opinion/01krugman.html?scp=10&sq=krugman&st=nyt
and thats just the last few days.
well, i will co-sign harveycanal in saying, as a progressive, i'm down with this. it makes me nauseous to hear obama talk about his republican support.
Of the Council on Foreign Relations? Quite possibly.
he's the only non-hillary basher on the op-ed page. do the same run down for maureen dowd.
i just find it interesting that he looks as stupid as he writes.
I hear you, but given her demonstrated (lack of) ability to pull independents, do you think swaying only the Democrats who didnt vote against Bush in '04 would be enough to avoid Kerry's fate? We're trying to win right, not just remain ideologically pure?
What makes me nauseous are people who treat politics like some "us against them" game when it should simply be "what's best for ALL of us".
PANDER BEAR.