I could never support Obama because I think to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake.
Where did you get the idea he wants to leave anytime soon?
I think any Dem candidate is going to talk "we're getting out of Iraq" but once in office, I don't see it happening, not in any abrupt way. Shit, even I have to agree: "to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake."
I can understand this line of thinking somewhat, but do you feel that 1 or 2 years from the moment in office is abrupt?
I could never support Obama because I think to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake.
Where did you get the idea he wants to leave anytime soon?
I think any Dem candidate is going to talk "we're getting out of Iraq" but once in office, I don't see it happening, not in any abrupt way. Shit, even I have to agree: "to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake."
I can understand this line of thinking somewhat, but do you feel that 1 or 2 years from the moment in office is abrupt?
I think it's interesting that Saba really believes things are turning around in Iraq and that "victory" is within our grasp. Dude, it's over. There are is not going to be any reconciliation between Shiites and Sunnis, violence is rising again (as witnessed by the recent spate of bombings), Americans continue to die at an alarming rate and there is no way to balance Iran's growing influence but to work with local players to create a coalition aimed at sanctions/carrots. Furthermore, the Demos are not going to leave precipitously, the situation is far to complex. Still, a pull out is coming and warranted. Guiliani just showed how affective a campaign based around security issues will last in this climate. I understand that you believe in Iraq as a do-or-die scenario but you are in the vast minority in this election cycle and just plain wrong about the stakes and the way it is gonna play out.
I think the big issue in the general election is going to be policy. Frankly, the Repubs are on the losing side of all the big ticket items; health care, economy, environment, immigration and education. You can see by the numbers of voters in the primaries how disenchanted the base is. Look at last night. The dems basically agreed not to campaign in FLA and drew as many as the GOP in a tightly contested race. The problem is that the GOP coalition is fractured on the key issues which could unite them. I agree that Hillary will motivate some evangelicals to come out and she certainly does less well with independents than McCain but the base is not there for a Repub to win no matter who the donkeys pitch.
I think it's interesting that Saba really believes things are turning around in Iraq and that "victory" is within our grasp. Dude, it's over. There are is not going to be any reconciliation between Shiites and Sunnis, violence is rising again (as witnessed by the recent spate of bombings), Americans continue to die at an alarming rate and there is no way to balance Iran's growing influence but to work with local players to create a coalition aimed at sanctions/carrots. Furthermore, the Demos are not going to leave precipitously, the situation is far to complex. Still, a pull out is coming and warranted. Guiliani just showed how affective a campaign based around security issues will last in this climate. I understand that you believe in Iraq as a do-or-die scenario but you are in the vast minority in this election cycle and just plain wrong about the stakes and the way it is gonna play out.
I think the big issue in the general election is going to be policy. Frankly, the Repubs are on the losing side of all the big ticket items; health care, economy, environment, immigration and education. You can see by the numbers of voters in the primaries how disenchanted the base is. Look at last night. The dems basically agreed not to campaign in FLA and drew as many as the GOP in a tightly contested race. The problem is that the GOP coalition is fractured on the key issues which could unite them. I agree that Hillary will motivate some evangelicals to come out and she certainly does less well with independents than McCain but the base is not there for a Repub to win no matter who the donkeys pitch.
1. Your blanket statement that Iraq is "over" with nothing to support it except your own assertions like "as witnessed by recent spate of bombings," or just plain wrong statements like, "american's continue to die at an alarming rate," will need a little more back-up before you're going to get a response from me. Furthermore, to walk-out on all the Iraqis who have finally decided to trust that we will stand by them against terrorism (regardless of whether it is foreign or sectarian) would only invite the type of masacres people like you are always complaining that we dont do enough to stop. The rest of your "local players," "carrot" foreign policy is meaningless.
2. The issue that is conspiciously absent from your list is taxes. And when the American people hear about Charlie Rangel's tax hike ...
Obama is polling ahead of Hillary amongst California Republicans. I don't know if that's an anti-Hillary thing or a pro-Obama thing.
lol. uhhh, let me help you with this one, O: it's an anti-Hillary thing.
I was just noting that Edwards hasn't benefitted as much from it however but maybe that's because he's seen as a has-been. Hill's killing Obama on the Latino front so far though.
Hill's killing Obama on the Latino front so far though.
this has much to do with brown/black issues, and not policy. if bill clinton would point this out though, i'm sure he'd get crucified, just like he did by stating what everyone already knows- that race and gender are obviously playing a huge part of the dem primary.
I could never support Obama because I think to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake.
Where did you get the idea he wants to leave anytime soon?
I think any Dem candidate is going to talk "we're getting out of Iraq" but once in office, I don't see it happening, not in any abrupt way. Shit, even I have to agree: "to abandon Iraq would be a big mistake."
I can understand this line of thinking somewhat, but do you feel that 1 or 2 years from the moment in office is abrupt?
Depends on the situation in Iraq.
As far as I can tell, Hillary and Obama have basically the same position on Iraq, although they have been changing a bit lately.
They both want partial withdrawals. They'll bring back much of the combat troops, emphasize diplomatic and economic means to influence events, work with neighbors, change the mission from counterinsurgency to counterterrorism. It's pretty close to the Iraq Survey Group's recommendations. All agree that the U.S. will be there for years.
Hill's killing Obama on the Latino front so far though.
this has much to do with brown/black issues, and not policy.
i dont think i agree with this. i have a friend who is a union organizer in vegas and according to her it was mostly a clinton-loyalty thing; the clintons were widely perceived as immigrant-friendly whereas no one knows where Barack stands - or they know what he SAYS, but dont have any previous record to go on.
that said, kennedy's endorsement + his licenses for illegals thing might go over in a big way.
McCain vs Clinton - Most partisans will vote for their party. Independents go to Rs. Major issues:
Iraq - Clinton will talk about her undying support for the war and promise to bring victory quickly with out blood shed. McCain will promise to bomb them all to hell. Tie.
Health Care - Both will offer similar plans. McCain will claim that Clinton's plan is socialized medicine that will destroy our health care system and prevent you from seeing the Dr you want. Win McCain.
Taxes - Both will offer similar plans. McCain will claim to be a fiscal conservative republican while Clinton is a tax and spend Democrat. Win McCain.
Of course no one really cares about policies. Image: McCain - Old ugly gambler who used to be a war hero. Clinton - Cold, calculating ready and able to serve. Win Clinton.
Clinton will get hit hard with past evils. McCain will get hit hard on age and years and years (and years and years) of no real accomplishment. Tie
I don't have time to do all the other combinations.
Word - I think the Clinton campaign has far more to gain by sabotaging Obama at this point than the GOP does (that doesn't mean some dumbnuts on the right wouldn't pass along some bullshit however).
If you want to see what is out there do a google search. You will see plenty.
sure, but the original post that all this is in response to is that the GOP is "hands off" Obama. not GOP voters, the GOP. surfing the internet for random anti-Obama schitt proves nothing.
If you want to see what is out there do a google search. You will see plenty.
sure, but the original post that all this is in response to is that the GOP is "hands off" Obama. not GOP voters, the GOP. surfing the internet for random anti-Obama schitt proves nothing.
RIGHT! And don't forget Bush never attacked John Kerry's service record, that was done by the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth who had no links to the GOP.
If you want to see what is out there do a google search. You will see plenty.
sure, but the original post that all this is in response to is that the GOP is "hands off" Obama. not GOP voters, the GOP. surfing the internet for random anti-Obama schitt proves nothing.
RIGHT! And don't forget Bush never attacked John Kerry's service record, that was done by the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth who had no links to the GOP.
dude calm down. obviously there's front groups out there, but "do a google search"? are you serious? why, so we can sift through 1,000s of webpages of ranting by right wing lunatics with access to a computer and blogger software?
McCain was slapping Romney around during the debate on CNN. Mitt Romney is batshit crazy. McCain, sadly, ain't too far off. They are so stuck on the Jihad thing. It's an issue, yes, but not the only issue.
McCain was slapping Romney around during the debate on CNN. Mitt Romney is batshit crazy. McCain, sadly, ain't too far off. They are so stuck on the Jihad thing. It's an issue, yes, but not the only issue.
It's a gamble and not a great one given that everyone seems more focused on the economy right now. That said, mysterious terrorist attack in October?
Yeah, they are not even throwing them a bone. Why even invite them? I guess Huck is there to chip away at Romney. They seemed to ask Paul stock Libertarian questions, where he was almost reciting the party platform. What a sad scene. I think it's gonna be a McCainAbee ticket.
My roommate is a rabid Paul follower. He has been talking my ear off about Paul's lack of exposure during the debates, and how Dick Cheney should be impeached. It's an odd combo but those are the boy's favorite two talking points.
Can we please slowly back away from Reagan's balls? I know we are at his library -- no doubt, the first library I've seen with a plane (Air Force One) -- but damn, they slobbin' his knob dirty.
Romney is making McCain look silly on anything economy.
The "talk about your record" question where McCain spent the whole answer trashing Romney's record and Romney spent his whole answer rebutting but pulling it off and making McCain look like a dick was pretty rugged.
I lived under Romney as Gov and am NOT down with him - but I will say this, he speaks truth when he says he would veto any budget items that were not to his liking. If the Republicans want Reagan, they should go with Romney. The Mormon shit is a red herring - he's less of a "fanatic" than GWB, that's for sure.
If you want to see what is out there do a google search. You will see plenty.
sure, but the original post that all this is in response to is that the GOP is "hands off" Obama. not GOP voters, the GOP. surfing the internet for random anti-Obama schitt proves nothing.
RIGHT! And don't forget Bush never attacked John Kerry's service record, that was done by the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth who had no links to the GOP.
dude calm down. obviously there's front groups out there, but "do a google search"? are you serious? why, so we can sift through 1,000s of webpages of ranting by right wing lunatics with access to a computer and blogger software?
Not sure what you are talking about. I'm calm. If you want a link to a press release to the White House you aint gonna find it. If you think 1,000s of ranting right wing blogs have nothing to do with the gop, fine. All I'm saying is expect to hear this a lot more when and if Obama comes down to being the front runner. If you want to believe that it isnt the gop saying it, again fine.
Romney is making McCain look silly on anything economy.
The "talk about your record" question where McCain spent the whole answer trashing Romney's record and Romney spent his whole answer rebutting but pulling it off and making McCain look like a dick was pretty rugged.
I lived under Romney as Gov and am NOT down with him - but I will say this, he speaks truth when he says he would veto any budget items that were not to his liking. If the Republicans want Reagan, they should go with Romney. The Mormon shit is a red herring - he's less of a "fanatic" than GWB, that's for sure.
As far the budget issues go, that means he'll continue to eliminate jobs but make sure that rated-R movies go the way of the dinosaur. Dude's got problems...
I think it's interesting that Saba really believes things are turning around in Iraq and that "victory" is within our grasp. Dude, it's over. There are is not going to be any reconciliation between Shiites and Sunnis, violence is rising again (as witnessed by the recent spate of bombings), Americans continue to die at an alarming rate and there is no way to balance Iran's growing influence but to work with local players to create a coalition aimed at sanctions/carrots. Furthermore, the Demos are not going to leave precipitously, the situation is far to complex. Still, a pull out is coming and warranted. Guiliani just showed how affective a campaign based around security issues will last in this climate. I understand that you believe in Iraq as a do-or-die scenario but you are in the vast minority in this election cycle and just plain wrong about the stakes and the way it is gonna play out.
I think the big issue in the general election is going to be policy. Frankly, the Repubs are on the losing side of all the big ticket items; health care, economy, environment, immigration and education. You can see by the numbers of voters in the primaries how disenchanted the base is. Look at last night. The dems basically agreed not to campaign in FLA and drew as many as the GOP in a tightly contested race. The problem is that the GOP coalition is fractured on the key issues which could unite them. I agree that Hillary will motivate some evangelicals to come out and she certainly does less well with independents than McCain but the base is not there for a Repub to win no matter who the donkeys pitch.
1. Your blanket statement that Iraq is "over" with nothing to support it except your own assertions like "as witnessed by recent spate of bombings," or just plain wrong statements like, "american's continue to die at an alarming rate," will need a little more back-up before you're going to get a response from me. Furthermore, to walk-out on all the Iraqis who have finally decided to trust that we will stand by them against terrorism (regardless of whether it is foreign or sectarian) would only invite the type of masacres people like you are always complaining that we dont do enough to stop. The rest of your "local players," "carrot" foreign policy is meaningless.
2. The issue that is conspiciously absent from your list is taxes. And when the American people hear about Charlie Rangel's tax hike ...
I love the how you are trying to hold others to a standard that you yourself never attain. You go and do your own Frickin' homework. It is an objective fact that violence is again on the rise in Iraq (US body count was 35 last month) and that there has been zero political reconciliation as a result of the surge. I am deeply saddened by the on coming bloodbath that is likely following our departure from Iraq. Just as I regret the sad denouement of our involvement in SE Asia. However, your belief that we can stop it or that it is the end of the world are both historically inaccurate and impossibly naive. Just as your belief that people have turned against Al Qaeda in Iraq because they trust us. We have armed them against their greater threat, Shias. That is the single basis for our current detente with the Sunnis.
Your outright dismissal of the local players only shows that you really have no grasp of how problems are going to be solved in that region. The most important players are going to be local actors, which is why it is so Frickin' difficult to get anything done there.
I hope you watched the debate last night. All Hollywood came out to support us. With Diane Keaton, Jason Alexander and Steven Spielberg in our camp it is easy to see that victory is ours. Oh, plus we actually have charismatic and forwarding thinking candidates. You guys are done too. BTW, Obama and Hillary are both proposing middle class tax cuts.
Comments
I can understand this line of thinking somewhat, but do you feel that 1 or 2 years from the moment in office is abrupt?
Depends on the situation in Iraq.
I think the big issue in the general election is going to be policy. Frankly, the Repubs are on the losing side of all the big ticket items; health care, economy, environment, immigration and education. You can see by the numbers of voters in the primaries how disenchanted the base is. Look at last night. The dems basically agreed not to campaign in FLA and drew as many as the GOP in a tightly contested race. The problem is that the GOP coalition is fractured on the key issues which could unite them. I agree that Hillary will motivate some evangelicals to come out and she certainly does less well with independents than McCain but the base is not there for a Repub to win no matter who the donkeys pitch.
1. Your blanket statement that Iraq is "over" with nothing to support it except your own assertions like "as witnessed by recent spate of bombings," or just plain wrong statements like, "american's continue to die at an alarming rate," will need a little more back-up before you're going to get a response from me. Furthermore, to walk-out on all the Iraqis who have finally decided to trust that we will stand by them against terrorism (regardless of whether it is foreign or sectarian) would only invite the type of masacres people like you are always complaining that we dont do enough to stop. The rest of your "local players," "carrot" foreign policy is meaningless.
2. The issue that is conspiciously absent from your list is taxes. And when the American people hear about Charlie Rangel's tax hike ...
lol. uhhh, let me help you with this one, O: it's an anti-Hillary thing.
I was just noting that Edwards hasn't benefitted as much from it however but maybe that's because he's seen as a has-been. Hill's killing Obama on the Latino front so far though.
this has much to do with brown/black issues, and not policy. if bill clinton would point this out though, i'm sure he'd get crucified, just like he did by stating what everyone already knows- that race and gender are obviously playing a huge part of the dem primary.
No one said it was about policy. As noted, at this point, very little re: the Dem race seems to be over policy.
The question here is what - if anything - might counter this.
I guess you have not heard that Obama is a Muslim who refuses to take his oaths on a Bible of say the Pledge Alligence.
That or your idea of hands off is different than mine.
As far as I can tell, Hillary and Obama have basically the same position on Iraq, although they have been changing a bit lately.
They both want partial withdrawals. They'll bring back much of the combat troops, emphasize diplomatic and economic means to influence events, work with neighbors, change the mission from counterinsurgency to counterterrorism. It's pretty close to the Iraq Survey Group's recommendations. All agree that the U.S. will be there for years.
that said, kennedy's endorsement + his licenses for illegals thing might go over in a big way.
McCain vs Clinton - Most partisans will vote for their party. Independents go to Rs. Major issues:
Iraq - Clinton will talk about her undying support for the war and promise to bring victory quickly with out blood shed. McCain will promise to bomb them all to hell. Tie.
Health Care - Both will offer similar plans. McCain will claim that Clinton's plan is socialized medicine that will destroy our health care system and prevent you from seeing the Dr you want. Win McCain.
Taxes - Both will offer similar plans. McCain will claim to be a fiscal conservative republican while Clinton is a tax and spend Democrat. Win McCain.
Of course no one really cares about policies.
Image:
McCain - Old ugly gambler who used to be a war hero.
Clinton - Cold, calculating ready and able to serve. Win Clinton.
Clinton will get hit hard with past evils.
McCain will get hit hard on age and years and years (and years and years) of no real accomplishment. Tie
I don't have time to do all the other combinations.
What person/group affiliated with the GOP said this plaese?
This has been very popular on annonymous chain emails. You can also find tons of blogs with this message:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2006/12/barack_hussein.html
Even though he says he is a Xian he is really a Muslim.
Here locally the county Republican party foolishly put it on their website:
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2008/01/clark_county_gop_getting_unwan.html
Never doubt this will get used in the general election in a big big big big way.
Ummm......that first link was attached to this... pointing a finger at Hillary, not the GOP....
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/01/hillary_camp_ag.html
......and the second said nothing about refusing to take oaths on a bible unless I'm too stupid to find it??
The second link you posted only said this..
The Clark County Republican Party is getting the wrong kind of publicity in connection with a hate e-mail about Barack Obama.
The situation has gone national since being picked up by Keith Olbermann on his MSNBC show[/b]
I'm not doubting this was said, I just want to know by whom.
sure, but the original post that all this is in response to is that the GOP is "hands off" Obama. not GOP voters, the GOP. surfing the internet for random anti-Obama schitt proves nothing.
RIGHT! And don't forget Bush never attacked John Kerry's service record, that was done by the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth who had no links to the GOP.
dude calm down. obviously there's front groups out there, but "do a google search"? are you serious? why, so we can sift through 1,000s of webpages of ranting by right wing lunatics with access to a computer and blogger software?
It's a gamble and not a great one given that everyone seems more focused on the economy right now. That said, mysterious terrorist attack in October?
Hmm....
Yeah, they are not even throwing them a bone. Why even invite them? I guess Huck is there to chip away at Romney. They seemed to ask Paul stock Libertarian questions, where he was almost reciting the party platform. What a sad scene. I think it's gonna be a McCainAbee ticket.
My roommate is a rabid Paul follower. He has been talking my ear off about Paul's lack of exposure during the debates, and how Dick Cheney should be impeached. It's an odd combo but those are the boy's favorite two talking points.
Can we please slowly back away from Reagan's balls? I know we are at his library -- no doubt, the first library I've seen with a plane (Air Force One) -- but damn, they slobbin' his knob dirty.
The "talk about your record" question where McCain spent
the whole answer trashing Romney's record and Romney spent
his whole answer rebutting but pulling it off and making
McCain look like a dick was pretty rugged.
I lived under Romney as Gov and am NOT down with him - but I
will say this, he speaks truth when he says he would veto any
budget items that were not to his liking. If the Republicans
want Reagan, they should go with Romney. The Mormon shit is
a red herring - he's less of a "fanatic" than GWB, that's for sure.
Not sure what you are talking about. I'm calm. If you want a link to a press release to the White House you aint gonna find it. If you think 1,000s of ranting right wing blogs have nothing to do with the gop, fine. All I'm saying is expect to hear this a lot more when and if Obama comes down to being the front runner. If you want to believe that it isnt the gop saying it, again fine.
As far the budget issues go, that means he'll continue to eliminate jobs but make sure that rated-R movies go the way of the dinosaur. Dude's got problems...
I love the how you are trying to hold others to a standard that you yourself never attain. You go and do your own Frickin' homework. It is an objective fact that violence is again on the rise in Iraq (US body count was 35 last month) and that there has been zero political reconciliation as a result of the surge. I am deeply saddened by the on coming bloodbath that is likely following our departure from Iraq. Just as I regret the sad denouement of our involvement in SE Asia. However, your belief that we can stop it or that it is the end of the world are both historically inaccurate and impossibly naive. Just as your belief that people have turned against Al Qaeda in Iraq because they trust us. We have armed them against their greater threat, Shias. That is the single basis for our current detente with the Sunnis.
Your outright dismissal of the local players only shows that you really have no grasp of how problems are going to be solved in that region. The most important players are going to be local actors, which is why it is so Frickin' difficult to get anything done there.
I hope you watched the debate last night. All Hollywood came out to support us. With Diane Keaton, Jason Alexander and Steven Spielberg in our camp it is easy to see that victory is ours. Oh, plus we actually have charismatic and forwarding thinking candidates. You guys are done too. BTW, Obama and Hillary are both proposing middle class tax cuts.
This part was a joke, right???
yes, if he would have said chuck norris was supporting the dems, then it would have obviously been serious.