Arguing whether or not someone has the perceived "right" to make a statement shouldn't overshadow whether or not the statement is accurate.
you obviously are not familar with soulstrut's definition of "realness" or "connectedness", this is strictly a "who says it" and "how it is said", not a "what is said" kind of forum.
Oh and O****r, I have seen Sweetsweetback and still stand by my critique and under stand it was 37 years ago. Bill is more than 37 years disconnected from the music industry...just trying to make a point. Well, nevermind.
What an idiotic, dick-riding post if I've ever seen one.
Two things...
1. When did I ever say that I actually believe in lizard people?
2. Is it okay for me as a white man to speak for my 2 year old black daughter? Or should I stop doing so right away because some idgit on the internet can't think of the world as anything but one's and zero's.
Well if I did have a child of mixed race (which is a possibility for me). Or even if they weren't mixed and were a different race altogether, you can damn well believe I would never speak for them. Because in reality, I will never know their issues or problems or struggles. Same goes for my wife. I would never assume to be able to speak on anything she's dealt with in her life.
But anyways.
So, I'm totally interest now. There are no lizard people? Correct? I take it all back if so.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Well if I did have a child of mixed race (which is a possibility for me). Or even if they weren't mixed and were a different race altogether, you can damn well believe I would never speak for them. Because in reality, I will never know their issues or problems or struggles. Same goes for my wife. I would never assume to be able to speak on anything she's dealt with in her life.
This is by far the dumbest thing I've seen posted on here in quite some time.
2. Is it okay for me as a white man to speak for my 2 year old black daughter?
Well if I did have a child of mixed race (which is a possibility for me). Or even if they weren't mixed and were a different race altogether, you can damn well believe I would never speak for them. Because in reality, I will never know their issues or problems or struggles. Same goes for my wife. I would never assume to be able to speak on anything she's dealt with in her life.
No, but you would know of those things and the impact it has had on her life. Man is not the same race as me, but he has now seen a lot more of the shit that people do and say that he didn't before - and that means he moves through the world differently and notices things he didn't before and he has spoken up (edit - which is something he's always done). Is he speaking for me? No.
And if someone was doing wrong by H or your potential child, you would speak up. Just like you would if they were the same race as you.
Speaking up when you think something is not right is not the same as speaking for those who are being done wrong by. Folks are interchanging the two mostly based on the how they feel about Harvey. From what I've read, Harvey has never purported to be speaking for anyone else but himself and how he sees things.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
From what I've read, Harvey has never purported to be speaking for anyone else but himself and how he sees things.
Earl Hutchinson is not having any of it. He tore Cosby a new one when he went off at the NAACP a couple of years ago and this is his reaction to the book:
Bill Cosby's New Book Full of Racial Stereotypes
By Earl Ofari Hutchinson October 15, 2007.
this is crap. if you want to get some name recognition, follow Dyson's lead and write a book (or 3) or publish an article with Cosby's name. None of the criticism has been towards the action that Cosby calls for or his intentions...no, 3 books and countless articles are about the horrible act of speaking too harshly towards ones own people, while giving motivational speeches!! yea, how dare he try to stimulate change by reciting statistics of single mothers, black men in prison, poverty, etc., and then have the nerve to say that maybe these people need to actually change their behavior. i find it hard to believe that Cosby's black critics don't agree with his overall message. i'm not saying Cosby is 100% right on everything he covers, but sometimes you gotta break a few eggs and he is one of the few guys right now with enough balls to stir up a change by words alone.
Faux had this pinned exactly right: people are reading Archaic's comments for the man, not the message and in this case, it's the message that's relevant.
From what I've read, Harvey has never purported to be speaking for anyone else but himself and how he sees things.
I disagree.
In many of Harvey's posting, I find it slightly interesting on the fact that he seems to use "white people" quite often. With almost slightly used "Those people" overtones, when in fact he is one of "those people". Almost to a point where he believes and portrays himself as in the club and somehow down to speak on topics where in reality he has zero idea of the plight of who he's speaking for.
IMO, His admitted wrongly use of the alias Shied in the past could be used to support this.
In any case, I agree with some of your point.
But IMO, I feel there is a huge different between giving your opinion & support and speaking for someone else.
The point he made above was to the fact that he grew up around black neighborhoods and around black people, married someone black and had a mixed child which now allows him to be "advocating for "black" causes". While at the same time disregarding other causes just because none of the others apply to him.
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm totally wrong. But thats a ton of bullshit.
Damn, I must be bored at work. Let me go get a sandwich.
Faux had this pinned exactly right: people are reading Archaic's comments for the man, not the message and in this case, it's the message that's relevant.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to suppress the message.
If a concept, ideal or critique is correct why the hell should it make a difference who is stating it.
Regardless of how old, hip, or "white" Harvey[/b] is, if what he is saying has validity then that's all that should matter.
I agree....but this theory has to cover BOTH support and critique of any given topic.
It's one thing to suggest that a person's point of view might be informed by their experiences as a white person; it's another to offer spittle-flecked declarations that no white person should speak on the wrongs done by white people--which happens all the damn time around here.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Damn, I must be psycho[/b] at work. Let me go get a sandwich.
But more often, the teachers are underqualified for and simultaneously unwilling to rise up to the task at hand. And in many cases, this makes the school district happy in compounding a problem that will likely become the source of major $ research/rectification funds.
Compounding the problem, contrary to your fantasy, will result in the school being shut down by the Feds. In fact, the worse a school does, the less money it gets, according to NCLB.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
But more often, the teachers are underqualified for and simultaneously unwilling to rise up to the task at hand. And in many cases, this makes the school district happy in compounding a problem that will likely become the source of major $ research/rectification funds.
Compounding the problem, contrary to your fantasy, will result in the school being shut down by the Feds. In fact, the worse a school does, the less money it gets, according to NCLB.
Exactly the direction that leads to district-wide redesign with magnet program students essentially gentrifying the former "problem schools"...which all equals big grant bucks for the district.
At least that's how AISD is currently operating...
I guess I don't see how redrawing district lines and getting more advanced students would lead to making more money for the district or why the Feds would automatically give the new school tons of money.
Where are you getting this info from?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I guess I don't see how redrawing district lines and getting more advanced students would lead to making more money for the district or why the Feds would automatically give the new school tons of money.
Where are you getting this info from?
People working on the redesign of the district.
People that work at the primary "problem school" that the district is running into the ground, calling for its closure as often as possible.
It's kinda ill down here right now the way this city is going through so many drastic changes.
I'm shocked to read that the only person making any sense and keeping his head above water in this mess of ramblings of a thread is getting sonned for it.
harveycanal does not have white guilt. he is just capable of being compassionate and seems to have a broader understanding of the topic at hand than most people in this thread.
I guess I don't see how redrawing district lines and getting more advanced students would lead to making more money for the district or why the Feds would automatically give the new school tons of money.
Where are you getting this info from?
People working on the redesign of the district.
People that work at the primary "problem school" that the district is running into the ground, calling for its closure as often as possible.
It's kinda ill down here right now the way this city is going through so many drastic changes.
1) I don't think HC ever talked about redrawing district lines but redesigning the school district, usually called "school reform"
2) In terms of money I think he's saying that if they get rid of the bad school the district won't be losing money, but rather retaining it with the new schools they plan on putting up in its place, which could also lead to some additional money.
3) About getting more advanced students, that usually only happens with specific schools, instead of across a school district. For urban ones that usually comes as a result of magnet schools or special programs that draw in kids from across the district. My high school has the top AP program and two school-to-career acadamies that are tops in the district which has dramatically changed the student population since I've been teaching there for the last 11 years. Most notably there are way, I mean WAAAYYY more white kids going to my school than ever before. that helps boost the test scores and GPA at the school. It could also mean that some students that would otherwise go to my school can't get in anymore because there's no room.
Basically what Harvey is talking about is standard operating procedure for many troubled districts. Instead of working on actually providing equal education amongst the different schools, they'll usually close down the bad ones and either 1) re-open it with an entirely new staff, 2) break it up into what's called "small schools" which happened to the 3 worst high schools here in Oakland Unified where I work. They basically break the school up into 3-4 of schools within a school to try to reduce the number of students in classes, usually hire mostly new staff and have an entirely new administration for each small school, 3) open up charter schools or something similar to replace the old one.
With regards to an earlier comment by the Non that it's the "parents fault," is only capturing part of the problem. Harvey's reply that it's institutional racism is an important part, as well as O-Dub's 2-cents that media does play a role as well. This goes back to the classic "nature vs. nurture" argument about human behavior. IMO, it's a combination of all of them. Kids are born with inherent abilities like speaking, but it's up to the parents to develop them. Parents are probably the largest influence on a child, but they are also shaped by their environment which includes the neighborhoods, schools, media, etc. Segregation both legal and institutional had a tremendous affect on minorities in America and still does in cutting off opportunities that are open to the majority white population. Class divisions also have an effect as well. And to say that rap music doesn't have an effect on kids is just plain silly to me. Artists shape speech, style, etc. with teens I see everyday.
I'm saying that even if a "good school" was built, it's still likely to fall into the hands of administrators and faculty that have no clue on how not to be discriminatory. Build a "good neighborhood", and it's still likely to suffer from people from other parts of town never going there and thus never spending their money there.
Not to say that infrastructure doesn't need attention, but IMO it's the people factor that ultimately does the worst damage.
Kudos to those who are talking like adults around here. Harvey do yourself a favor and ignore people who post with the sole purpose of getting you riled.
Here is some good news I have witnessed. There is a national campaign calling for Black fathers to walk their kids to school. I see this happening in the schools I work in. A little thing, but a good thing. Maybe Motown has noticed as well.
Here, at the schools I am in I don't see the administrators and faculty being discriminatory. Very often or obviously. I will return to this, but not a huge problem here I hope. Unless I am part of the problem and can't recognize it in myself or others.
One way to build a "good neighborhood" is to build a mixed income neighborhood. You mix some high end apts, and some median priced apts, in with the low income apts. It tends to work.
I am on a schools site council. We have only had one meeting and we are half way done writing our by-laws. I think the purpose of the site council is to devise ways to improve the school. Here's what's up; the by-laws have some vague equality for all students language. Everyone nodded their heads and said sure. I said what does it mean? Everyone said what means to them about all ethnic groups in the school being treated equally. Fine I said. Next meeting we will adopt the by-laws. The meeting after that I will challenge the make up of the site council. We have 6 White teachers, 5 White one African parent, 1 Hispanic staff member, and one White community member (that's me!). I don't see how we can represent the 20+% of our Hispanic population equally without one Hispanic parent on the council. I don't see how we can represent our 20-% Black population equally without a single Black person on the council. I don't see how we can represent our 20% Asian population with out a single Asian on the council (though our Asian population is so diverse I don't know if it is fair to call them a single group). Not to mention the large Native American/Pacific Islander population.
I am the chairperson of my School Site Council, we do get to make some important decisions. Do we represent the ethnic makeup? Not really. But the SSC is mostly teachers and the teachers (and principal) are mostly white females, that's a countrywide problem- our staff does not reflect our kids. I'm the best role model I can be, but I'm not a black male like most of my students, I'm just funny Ms. K who listens to Mac Dre. I'm
I'm at a small school as well and I have to say I believe in the small school movement. We went from a very shitty comprehensive high school to four significantly less shitty small schools each with a theme and curricula that focuses on project-based learning and authentic assessments that connect our kids to the real world and to their community. This is year 3 and we are still growing. Small schools are A LOT of work. I'm a Special Ed teacher, but I sit on all sorts of committees and grade-level teams and work all the time, 60 hours/week plus I got school myself at night/weekends.
But I know most all the kids in our school by name, I love the people I work with and I believe in what we do. Just wish I got paid more.....
One way to build a "good neighborhood" is to build a mixed income neighborhood. You mix some high end apts, and some median priced apts, in with the low income apts. It tends to work.
There are many cities and neighborhoods that actively oppose this, mostly suburbs. San Leandro here in the Bay Area is a perfect example. The city became a prime suburban destination for whites leaving Oakland at the end of WWII up to the 1960s. The housing associations quickly set up racial covenents to keep out blacks for 20 years even though they weren't even coming because the neighboring part of Oakland, East Oakland, was segregated against blacks anyways. The home developers and city fathers not only wanted to keep blacks out but poor whites as well. They blocked any attempts to build apartments because they only wanted white middle class families that could afford to buy a home. Even to this day, these racial and housing patterns persist there.
Just recently some city here in the Bay also cancelled plans to build a dollar store there because they were afraid it would bring in "the wrong people."
One way to build a "good neighborhood" is to build a mixed income neighborhood. You mix some high end apts, and some median priced apts, in with the low income apts. It tends to work.
There are many cities and neighborhoods that actively oppose this, mostly suburbs. San Leandro here in the Bay Area is a perfect example. The city became a prime suburban destination for whites leaving Oakland at the end of WWII up to the 1960s. The housing associations quickly set up racial covenents to keep out blacks for 20 years even though they weren't even coming because the neighboring part of Oakland, East Oakland, was segregated against blacks anyways. The home developers and city fathers not only wanted to keep blacks out but poor whites as well. They blocked any attempts to build apartments because they only wanted white middle class families that could afford to buy a home. Even to this day, these racial and housing patterns persist there.
Just recently some city here in the Bay also cancelled plans to build a dollar store there because they were afraid it would bring in "the wrong people."
In the same way some 'burbs and communities oppose bring out public transportation because then "those people" would be able to come out there. That is how you build a bad neighborhood full of cul de sacs and no place to walk and long distances to services.
Comments
you obviously are not familar with soulstrut's definition of "realness" or "connectedness", this is strictly a "who says it" and "how it is said", not a "what is said" kind of forum.
Oh and O****r, I have seen Sweetsweetback and still stand by my critique and under stand it was 37 years ago. Bill is more than 37 years disconnected from the music industry...just trying to make a point. Well, nevermind.
Well if I did have a child of mixed race (which is a possibility for me). Or even if they weren't mixed and were a different race altogether, you can damn well believe I would never speak for them. Because in reality, I will never know their issues or problems or struggles. Same goes for my wife. I would never assume to be able to speak on anything she's dealt with in her life.
But anyways.
So, I'm totally interest now. There are no lizard people? Correct? I take it all back if so.
This is by far the dumbest thing I've seen posted on here in quite some time.
Glad I'm not you...
Indeed.
I'd be interested to know if you ever wrote anything published under your Shied alias? If so. Plz let me know.
It appears that you're trying to make a point, but who could tell?
No, but you would know of those things and the impact it has had on her life. Man is not the same race as me, but he has now seen a lot more of the shit that people do and say that he didn't before - and that means he moves through the world differently and notices things he didn't before and he has spoken up (edit - which is something he's always done). Is he speaking for me? No.
And if someone was doing wrong by H or your potential child, you would speak up. Just like you would if they were the same race as you.
Speaking up when you think something is not right is not the same as speaking for those who are being done wrong by. Folks are interchanging the two mostly based on the how they feel about Harvey. From what I've read, Harvey has never purported to be speaking for anyone else but himself and how he sees things.
Thank you.
this is crap. if you want to get some name recognition, follow Dyson's lead and write a book (or 3) or publish an article with Cosby's name. None of the criticism has been towards the action that Cosby calls for or his intentions...no, 3 books and countless articles are about the horrible act of speaking too harshly towards ones own people, while giving motivational speeches!! yea, how dare he try to stimulate change by reciting statistics of single mothers, black men in prison, poverty, etc., and then have the nerve to say that maybe these people need to actually change their behavior. i find it hard to believe that Cosby's black critics don't agree with his overall message. i'm not saying Cosby is 100% right on everything he covers, but sometimes you gotta break a few eggs and he is one of the few guys right now with enough balls to stir up a change by words alone.
I disagree.
In many of Harvey's posting, I find it slightly interesting on the fact that he seems to use "white people" quite often. With almost slightly used "Those people" overtones, when in fact he is one of "those people". Almost to a point where he believes and portrays himself as in the club and somehow down to speak on topics where in reality he has zero idea of the plight of who he's speaking for.
IMO, His admitted wrongly use of the alias Shied in the past could be used to support this.
In any case, I agree with some of your point.
But IMO, I feel there is a huge different between giving your opinion & support and speaking for someone else.
The point he made above was to the fact that he grew up around black neighborhoods and around black people, married someone black and had a mixed child which now allows him to be "advocating for "black" causes". While at the same time disregarding other causes just because none of the others apply to him.
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm totally wrong. But thats a ton of bullshit.
Damn, I must be bored at work. Let me go get a sandwich.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to suppress the message.
I agree....but this theory has to cover BOTH support and critique of any given topic.
It's one thing to suggest that a person's point of view might be informed by their experiences as a white person; it's another to offer spittle-flecked declarations that no white person should speak on the wrongs done by white people--which happens all the damn time around here.
Compounding the problem, contrary to your fantasy, will result in the school being shut down by the Feds. In fact, the worse a school does, the less money it gets, according to NCLB.
Exactly the direction that leads to district-wide redesign with magnet program students essentially gentrifying the former "problem schools"...which all equals big grant bucks for the district.
At least that's how AISD is currently operating...
Where are you getting this info from?
People working on the redesign of the district.
People that work at the primary "problem school" that the district is running into the ground, calling for its closure as often as possible.
It's kinda ill down here right now the way this city is going through so many drastic changes.
harveycanal does not have white guilt. he is just capable of being compassionate and seems to have a broader understanding of the topic at hand than most people in this thread.
1) I don't think HC ever talked about redrawing district lines but redesigning the school district, usually called "school reform"
2) In terms of money I think he's saying that if they get rid of the bad school the district won't be losing money, but rather retaining it with the new schools they plan on putting up in its place, which could also lead to some additional money.
3) About getting more advanced students, that usually only happens with specific schools, instead of across a school district. For urban ones that usually comes as a result of magnet schools or special programs that draw in kids from across the district. My high school has the top AP program and two school-to-career acadamies that are tops in the district which has dramatically changed the student population since I've been teaching there for the last 11 years. Most notably there are way, I mean WAAAYYY more white kids going to my school than ever before. that helps boost the test scores and GPA at the school. It could also mean that some students that would otherwise go to my school can't get in anymore because there's no room.
Basically what Harvey is talking about is standard operating procedure for many troubled districts. Instead of working on actually providing equal education amongst the different schools, they'll usually close down the bad ones and either 1) re-open it with an entirely new staff, 2) break it up into what's called "small schools" which happened to the 3 worst high schools here in Oakland Unified where I work. They basically break the school up into 3-4 of schools within a school to try to reduce the number of students in classes, usually hire mostly new staff and have an entirely new administration for each small school, 3) open up charter schools or something similar to replace the old one.
With regards to an earlier comment by the Non that it's the "parents fault," is only capturing part of the problem. Harvey's reply that it's institutional racism is an important part, as well as O-Dub's 2-cents that media does play a role as well. This goes back to the classic "nature vs. nurture" argument about human behavior. IMO, it's a combination of all of them. Kids are born with inherent abilities like speaking, but it's up to the parents to develop them. Parents are probably the largest influence on a child, but they are also shaped by their environment which includes the neighborhoods, schools, media, etc. Segregation both legal and institutional had a tremendous affect on minorities in America and still does in cutting off opportunities that are open to the majority white population. Class divisions also have an effect as well. And to say that rap music doesn't have an effect on kids is just plain silly to me. Artists shape speech, style, etc. with teens I see everyday.
Kudos to those who are talking like adults around here. Harvey do yourself a favor and ignore people who post with the sole purpose of getting you riled.
Here is some good news I have witnessed. There is a national campaign calling for Black fathers to walk their kids to school. I see this happening in the schools I work in. A little thing, but a good thing. Maybe Motown has noticed as well.
Here, at the schools I am in I don't see the administrators and faculty being discriminatory. Very often or obviously. I will return to this, but not a huge problem here I hope. Unless I am part of the problem and can't recognize it in myself or others.
One way to build a "good neighborhood" is to build a mixed income neighborhood. You mix some high end apts, and some median priced apts, in with the low income apts. It tends to work.
I am on a schools site council. We have only had one meeting and we are half way done writing our by-laws. I think the purpose of the site council is to devise ways to improve the school. Here's what's up; the by-laws have some vague equality for all students language. Everyone nodded their heads and said sure. I said what does it mean? Everyone said what means to them about all ethnic groups in the school being treated equally. Fine I said. Next meeting we will adopt the by-laws. The meeting after that I will challenge the make up of the site council. We have 6 White teachers, 5 White one African parent, 1 Hispanic staff member, and one White community member (that's me!). I don't see how we can represent the 20+% of our Hispanic population equally without one Hispanic parent on the council. I don't see how we can represent our 20-% Black population equally without a single Black person on the council. I don't see how we can represent our 20% Asian population with out a single Asian on the council (though our Asian population is so diverse I don't know if it is fair to call them a single group). Not to mention the large Native American/Pacific Islander population.
They are going to hate me.
I'm at a small school as well and I have to say I believe in the small school movement. We went from a very shitty comprehensive high school to four significantly less shitty small schools each with a theme and curricula that focuses on project-based learning and authentic assessments that connect our kids to the real world and to their community. This is year 3 and we are still growing. Small schools are A LOT of work. I'm a Special Ed teacher, but I sit on all sorts of committees and grade-level teams and work all the time, 60 hours/week plus I got school myself at night/weekends.
But I know most all the kids in our school by name, I love the people I work with and I believe in what we do. Just wish I got paid more.....
Here's an awesome book
whoops I got off topic
There are many cities and neighborhoods that actively oppose this, mostly suburbs. San Leandro here in the Bay Area is a perfect example. The city became a prime suburban destination for whites leaving Oakland at the end of WWII up to the 1960s. The housing associations quickly set up racial covenents to keep out blacks for 20 years even though they weren't even coming because the neighboring part of Oakland, East Oakland, was segregated against blacks anyways. The home developers and city fathers not only wanted to keep blacks out but poor whites as well. They blocked any attempts to build apartments because they only wanted white middle class families that could afford to buy a home. Even to this day, these racial and housing patterns persist there.
Just recently some city here in the Bay also cancelled plans to build a dollar store there because they were afraid it would bring in "the wrong people."
In the same way some 'burbs and communities oppose bring out public transportation because then "those people" would be able to come out there. That is how you build a bad neighborhood full of cul de sacs and no place to walk and long distances to services.