I'm sorry, I didn't realize that if I want to listen to Milford Graves I have to also be equally into rap because both are "radically black".
No, you don't. I didn't say that. What I DID say is that there is a contingent of people out there who would say "Your opinion about Milford Graves isn't as valid because you listen to M.O.P. and other rap garbage." I notice this in many circles, including over at your site, Jeff. Not pointing fingers, or accusing anyone of anything, but it is an attitude that is real and that I've been confronted with.
Ahhh... OK, I understand... I think... as much as I'm capable of.
Where does Noz fit into this argument?
Start listening to M.O.P. and THEN you might be considered "capable!"
You know I don't want to open a whole can of worms here, and I don't know anything about them dudes over there, but what the fuck is it with people who collect soul/funk/jazz etc and their complete distain for anything that is hip-hop oriented? In my opinion it goes beyond people actually just not liking the music. They treat anything that is even semi connected to modern day black culture as though it's got a disease. Like "Awesome, I'll collect Black Jazz records and be all into Funk 45s, but those hip-hop guys are savages." It's almost like if you are from a hip-hop background in your music listening tastes then it negates comepletely any validity your opinion might be on the soul/funk/jazz etc that's discussed.
And that shit happens over here too to a degree.
I finally got a chance to read that article o-dub linked to.
can't say I was thaaat into it, but it did touch on this phenomenon.
Seriously though Cosmo's right - a lot of cats assume that because someone comes from a hip-hop background, that they somehow are less fluent outside of their genre than someone who's focused around another part of music. I mean all the stuff people talk about the Beatdawg videos (to bring this all full circle, haha) like, man Pete Rock and other producers, they have ears just like some white guy who blogs about jazz, but sometimes cats don't give them that respect. You would be surprised at the variety of records some of these folks buy, and it's NOT just because "oh there's a beat on there" or whatever. Like, I know Cosmo makes his mixes a certain way, right? And he's known for playing a certain variety of music, but I wouldn't underestimate his ability to appreciate something - like say, Milford Graves - that he's *not* known for, you dig? Because a lot of folks seem to think that because this guy has a certain background that, you know, he's not musically literate.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
Yeah well I studied music in college and there wasn't any rap at all in my classes but I'm still a cultural philistine! Fuck it, I get money hahah!
But yeah Hookup, that's a good question, but it's also like that across the board as well, not just rap. I think a lot of it is the ADD of this generation, but not only that. Rap has stopped being an album based music form years ago.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
Yeah it's just diminishing returns of labels putting out more and more to the point now where the market is completely saturated. Also, the whole method of buying music is different...
When the promo guys come around my shop they don't even have 1/4 of the music that's dropped, as so few people are pressing singles on any physical media (least of all vinyl)
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
have you ever been to one of those nights where the DJs go through all the decades chronologically? pop hits from the 50's on...
"disposable" pop hits have always been around. there's a lot of em that didn't quite make the cut but came close. Beyonce will remain. Ciara will probably come close, but not quite make the cut.
there are spiritual avaant garde alterna artists today too. those will be the artists that future snobs will get most moist about when they find the unopened original press cd.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
No offense, but how does a dude that doesn't even like rap know what rap records are (or were) hot in the clurb last month?
I suspect that a lot of the records you're seeing never hit in the first place--as is inevitably the case with the vast majority of music pressed.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
No offense, but how does a dude that doesn't even like rap know what rap records are (or were) hot in the clurb last month?
I suspect that a lot of the records you're seeing never hit in the first place--as is inevitably the case with the vast majority of music pressed.
wasnt that "tipsy" a big song? 8=ball MJG, Yin Yang Twins...the tunes that come through were big, for a minute......I know the hot shit...I hear it as ringtones. Also, I know from rap fans and club goers who come into the shop and what they ask for. It is pretty easy to guage what are the big tunes of the moment. You dont have to be a fan to know that.
I really think you need to provide some examples here since the American pop music cycle has ALWAYS been driven by the desire to mint "hits" that can capitalize on its hotness for as long as the buying public is willing to support. But labels don't wait to see if the buying interest subsides or not - they're too busy recording and releasing the new 10 songs, all with the hope that at least one of them might hit as well.
I've been reading Peter Guralnick's book on the history of Southern soul ("Sweet Soul Music") and one gets the sense that at Stax, Atlantic, Motown, etc., no one had a clue about what songs would actually stand the test of time as classics and most of the time spent was simply putting as many potential winners into the marketplace and seeing what stuck. It's only in hindsight that one can say, "yeah, 'Last Night' by the Mar-Keys was destined to be a million seller". If the song had totally flopped, no doubt, people would have said, "well, what'd you expect from a novelty instrumental single?"
Bottomline: this is how pop music works. Turn, turn, turn.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
No offense, but how does a dude that doesn't even like rap know what rap records are (or were) hot in the clurb last month?
I suspect that a lot of the records you're seeing never hit in the first place--as is inevitably the case with the vast majority of music pressed.
wasnt that "tipsy" a big song? 8=ball MJG, Yin Yang Twins...the tunes that come through were big, for a minute......I know the hot shit...I hear it as ringtones. Also, I know from rap fans and club goers who come into the shop and what they ask for. It is pretty easy to guage what are the big tunes of the moment. You dont have to be a fan to know that.
The most recent albums by Ying-Yang and Eightball and MJG both completely bricked--the labels of both acts threw out a series of singles, none of which ever caught on (although I imagine the Ball and G record did better in your city than in the rest of the country). It's not a question of people embracing and then discarding the music in either case--it's a case of the music never really reaching the public.
"Tipsy" may be the best example of what you're talking about, but I don't think much of anybody viewed it as anything beyond a momentary club hit--it certainly did not serve to kindle any sort of interest in the artist's album. So, again, it's really not a case of people embracing the artist and his album and then rethinking things a month later.
I really think you need to provide some examples here since the American pop music cycle has ALWAYS been driven by the desire to mint "hits" that can capitalize on its hotness for as long as the buying public is willing to support. But labels don't wait to see if the buying interest subsides or not - they're too busy recording and releasing the new 10 songs, all with the hope that at least one of them might hit as well.
I've been reading Peter Guralnick's book on the history of Southern soul ("Sweet Soul Music") and one gets the sense that at Stax, Atlantic, Motown, etc., no one had a clue about what songs would actually stand the test of time as classics and most of the time spent was simply putting as many potential winners into the marketplace and seeing what stuck. It's only in hindsight that one can say, "yeah, 'Last Night' by the Mar-Keys was destined to be a million seller". If the song had totally flopped, no doubt, people would have said, "well, what'd you expect from a novelty instrumental single?"
Bottomline: this is how pop music works. Turn, turn, turn.
OK, here is a serious question...why is the turnover of "what is hot" in rap and club music so short? Once a month the record pool dudes unload the "old shit"(maybe a couple months old) on us at the shop for 25 cents a copy. I dont understand how a song can be amazing and the shit one second and then 30 to 60 days later, its "no good", "too old"? If a song is good, shouldnt it have some shelf-life or staying power? I find this kind of, well, for lack of a better word, insane. Do people go out an fork over $18 for a CD of the latest big thing only to quit listening to it or stop considering the artist valid a month later?
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
Yes, but lets look at sales histories of the big hip hop/rap artists...yes, their CDs go bezerk when released and then a HUGE fall off on sales. There arent 100,000 copies a year still being sold of say Outkast or Nelly, yes millions right off the bat then it is as if the CD doesnt exsist anymore after a year. I think Public Enemy only sold 50,000-60,000 total of all their titles combined last year. That is what I am talking about, where as Pink Floyd and other old rock acts still sell milllions of copies...I know there are tunes that dont make it in every genre...but I am talking about shit that is HUGE then it is as if it doesnt exsist a few months later...is that point coming through in what I am saying?
I really think you need to provide some examples here since the American pop music cycle has ALWAYS been driven by the desire to mint "hits" that can capitalize on its hotness for as long as the buying public is willing to support. But labels don't wait to see if the buying interest subsides or not - they're too busy recording and releasing the new 10 songs, all with the hope that at least one of them might hit as well.
plus payola! reading that book, I couldn't believe how frequently they would give partial publishing to local DJs to get extra spins.
I realize this thread is no longer much about sheep. sorry man.
Yes, but lets look at sales histories of the big hip hop/rap artists...yes, their CDs go bezerk when released and then a HUGE fall off on sales. There arent 100,000 copies a year still being sold of say Outkast or Nelly, yes millions right off the bat then it is as if the CD doesnt exsist anymore after a year. I think Public Enemy only sold 50,000-60,000 total of all their titles combined last year. That is what I am talking about, where as Pink Floyd and other old rock acts still sell milllions of copies...I know there are tunes that dont make it in every genre...but I am talking about shit that is HUGE then it is as if it doesnt exsist a few months later...is that point coming through in what I am saying?
That's not unique to rap. That's the pop music industry in general these days and there's myriad reasons why. In fact, you see the same thing with movies too. You can expect that even for a movie with a huge opening AND critical/word-of-mouth love will take at least a 50% dive by week two.
Comments
Start listening to M.O.P. and THEN you might be considered "capable!"
I finally got a chance to read that article o-dub linked to.
can't say I was thaaat into it, but it did touch on this phenomenon.
B, you fuckin rule.
I think it is quite easy to have appreciation for older styles and timbres of music because it does have a timeless quality to the listener, without having to appreciate or even keep up with what is "new" and "hot".
My assistant helps when I'm busy.
This is no different than it's ever been - if you had been working at a shop twenty years ago you would've been seeing the day's 3-month old releases being discounted in the cutout bins after they didn't sell at full price... and now those records are sometimes worth hundreds and considered classics.
I'm not trying to draw some comparison between the music of then and now on a qualitative basis, so much as the buying habits of *current* music buyers. Some generation in the future will no doubt re-evaluate the current music of today with different ears, the way we have been doing with music of the 60s-80s.
But yeah Hookup, that's a good question, but it's also like that across the board as well, not just rap. I think a lot of it is the ADD of this generation, but not only that. Rap has stopped being an album based music form years ago.
well it is a little different, I understand if a record didnt sell after a few months it would be resigned to the cut outs, but it seems to me the BIG tunes that people love and buy with a fury are only loved and bought for a minute, then it is as if they didnt exsist when the new hot thing comes out...thats what I was getting at...
You know these assholes are just a bunch of dumbfucks. By the way, check PM...
When the promo guys come around my shop they don't even have 1/4 of the music that's dropped, as so few people are pressing singles on any physical media (least of all vinyl)
That was pretty dope!
have you ever been to one of those nights where the DJs go through all the decades chronologically? pop hits from the 50's on...
"disposable" pop hits have always been around. there's a lot of em that didn't quite make the cut but came close. Beyonce will remain. Ciara will probably come close, but not quite make the cut.
there are spiritual avaant garde alterna artists today too. those will be the artists that future snobs will get most moist about when they find the unopened original press cd.
Ha - I could tell that was him just from his posting style.
Nobody does annoying left-field comments like Gurney. Nobody.
No offense, but how does a dude that doesn't even like rap know what rap records are (or were) hot in the clurb last month?
I suspect that a lot of the records you're seeing never hit in the first place--as is inevitably the case with the vast majority of music pressed.
Oh there's lots of people who are experts on music they've never heard. Some even boast about it.
"it is too real music!!!"
"just because I like rap doesn't mean I'm a dummy!!! I know stuff!!!"
[/pout]
wasnt that "tipsy" a big song? 8=ball MJG, Yin Yang Twins...the tunes that come through were big, for a minute......I know the hot shit...I hear it as ringtones. Also, I know from rap fans and club goers who come into the shop and what they ask for. It is pretty easy to guage what are the big tunes of the moment. You dont have to be a fan to know that.
I've been reading Peter Guralnick's book on the history of Southern soul ("Sweet Soul Music") and one gets the sense that at Stax, Atlantic, Motown, etc., no one had a clue about what songs would actually stand the test of time as classics and most of the time spent was simply putting as many potential winners into the marketplace and seeing what stuck. It's only in hindsight that one can say, "yeah, 'Last Night' by the Mar-Keys was destined to be a million seller". If the song had totally flopped, no doubt, people would have said, "well, what'd you expect from a novelty instrumental single?"
Bottomline: this is how pop music works. Turn, turn, turn.
hehehehe
The most recent albums by Ying-Yang and Eightball and MJG both completely bricked--the labels of both acts threw out a series of singles, none of which ever caught on (although I imagine the Ball and G record did better in your city than in the rest of the country). It's not a question of people embracing and then discarding the music in either case--it's a case of the music never really reaching the public.
"Tipsy" may be the best example of what you're talking about, but I don't think much of anybody viewed it as anything beyond a momentary club hit--it certainly did not serve to kindle any sort of interest in the artist's album. So, again, it's really not a case of people embracing the artist and his album and then rethinking things a month later.
Yes, but lets look at sales histories of the big hip hop/rap artists...yes, their CDs go bezerk when released and then a HUGE fall off on sales. There arent 100,000 copies a year still being sold of say Outkast or Nelly, yes millions right off the bat then it is as if the CD doesnt exsist anymore after a year. I think Public Enemy only sold 50,000-60,000 total of all their titles combined last year. That is what I am talking about, where as Pink Floyd and other old rock acts still sell milllions of copies...I know there are tunes that dont make it in every genre...but I am talking about shit that is HUGE then it is as if it doesnt exsist a few months later...is that point coming through in what I am saying?
plus payola! reading that book, I couldn't believe how frequently they would give partial publishing to local DJs to get extra spins.
I realize this thread is no longer much about sheep. sorry man.
That's my bad. Must be because I'm insecure. LET'S FIGHT!
That's not unique to rap. That's the pop music industry in general these days and there's myriad reasons why. In fact, you see the same thing with movies too. You can expect that even for a movie with a huge opening AND critical/word-of-mouth love will take at least a 50% dive by week two.
This is where all the Vinylvulture rejects come to!