"Like all homosocial activities, a serious devotion to collecting may even hinder a man from acquring the regular company of a sympathetic woman, and not just because so many record collectors end up with the unkempt look of the nerd... real life encounters never measure up to the fantasies so compellingly inscribed in his favorite records, and, of course, he cannot meet a woman with the same rarefied but crucial attitudes about m usic that he shares only with his fellow collectors, all of them male."
Sorry I didn't read the article but I found this quote to be offensive and assuming. Not to mention its reliance on gender roles.
I should have qualified - the second half of that quote (after the ...) is SPECIFICALLY referring to the character "Rob" from Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity." And the comment, in general, is an analysis of a particular kind of literary/cinematic figure of the collectro.
Oh not at all, I think some of its definately sensible, I just think these things are often a tad over reaching. I'm just not so sure that because someone enjoys a style of music it ticks ALL the boxes. Either way, it's interesting. Does the concept of consumerism and 'ownership' come into it at all?
Ownership would pretty much shore up the association with "mastery" no?
I think the consumerism angle is an interesting one but again, the desire to own more toys is a particular form of masculine behavior, right? It just takes a slightly different form but one could argue the base drive is still there. I can spend more, ergo, I'm a bigger/better man than he who can't afford my sealed Boscoes.
Haha, nah man, I ain't mad. I don't think I'm anti-intellectual either, I'm just interested in how he came to these points. Good on him for shining a light on a fairly strange world, I just think that its a little dangerous to prescribe firm reasons/explanations for anything a human or a group of humans do. There are common themes that run through many things but equally there are many truly unique situations. Maybe I'm just scared of what collecting records really means in relation to myself?
I think this is one of the more structural explanations that I personally think is pretty solid: partly what keeps collecting male is because it's so male to begin with. That alone is a way to dissuade female interest because they have to jump through a lot more hoops to be taken seriously or be accepted. That doesn't necessarily explain the root reasons why collecting skews male but it does explain how it stays male.
I think it's sort of like baseball card collecting or playing poker. Females I know can only get their foot in via sensitive loving man (who collects records). You not only have to learn to network with men (who are already secret squirrels between each other) but you also need to pretend you're a dude to be taken seriously. And to go about hustling alone for records is not ideal for the female. I got gripped in the ass the other day at a garage sale and one might argue that it serves me right for not having a dude with me. But to be a decent female collector, you need even more money to buy/tip those records and most of the time your option is to go shopping for records at fancy places. There were a few posts about dude dealers and collectors getting robbed or locked in basements and bikers getting held by swarms of cops. The average gal doesn't have the balls to play the game alone. And to top it off most women I know, don't even have a clue about this world. They are busy making babies and scheduling an appointment at the spa. And those of you that do have that raer female companion by your side, would she know as much about record nerding on her own? I think it's all about sharing and being honest with someone about what it is that drives you. Some fine women are down for just that but it takes time like any healthy lasting relationship. Record nerding is just not appealing if you can't have a decent collection to love and learn from.
This is bunk. Women collect different things, they just don't want to call it collecting because most women know there is a social stigma related to collecting things. Men are either oblivious, or don't care as much about appearances as women do. Shoes, rings, bracelets, cats, lamps, stuffed animals, dolls all count as collecting.
Non:
Naw dude - that's fully acknowledged in all the lit I've seen around record collecting. Sure, women collecting things but implicit with record collecting is also the valuation of a knowledge base behind those items (this obviously doesn't apply in every case). In other words, it's not just about stacking chips, it's about knowing all the arcane minutiae that comes with those items and that ultimately, what you're being respected for (by your peers) isn't just the accumulation of the collection but the implicit assumption that you're also *smarter* than the next dude on that account.
Personally, I think this aspect of these theories tends to be underbaked - not that I don't think there's something here but I don't think it's as well fleshed out as it could be. I think the argument being made - and this is certainly open to debate so I'd like to hear what folks thought of it - is that when it comes to things that women collect, their collections are not equated with a form of POWER whereas that's part of the implicit draw/appeal of things that men collect. Think of Pokemon - that shit makes the connection totally obvious: he with the best cards holds the most power. So just apply that same principle with some shit like a Honus Wagner baseball card or serving bean dip out off a Stark Reality.
The theory goes that most women don't pull out some insanely rare Beanie Baby and show it to another woman and go, "ha, top this, bitch!"
I'm not denying that your "social stigma" idea doesn't hold merit too but I think the argument being made here is that the reasons WHY women and men collect things are different. No one is denying women collect things. But they don't collect RECORDS and that's worth thinking about.
Your quote said collecting, not specifically record collecting. We are both on (generally) the same page.
"Like all homosocial activities, a serious devotion to collecting may even hinder a man from acquring the regular company of a sympathetic woman, and not just because so many record collectors end up with the unkempt look of the nerd... real life encounters never measure up to the fantasies so compellingly inscribed in his favorite records, and, of course, he cannot meet a woman with the same rarefied but crucial attitudes about m usic that he shares only with his fellow collectors, all of them male."
Sorry I didn't read the article but I found this quote to be offensive and assuming. Not to mention its reliance on gender roles.
I should have qualified - the second half of that quote (after the ...) is SPECIFICALLY referring to the character "Rob" from Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity." And the comment, in general, is an analysis of a particular kind of literary/cinematic figure of the collectro.
This is a real question - has anyone here known someone who's gone from being a normal, well adjusted person who happens to enjoy old records and become the foul-smelling crazy eyed collectro?
I haven't lived long enough to witness anyone in my lifetime but here's the thing. I'm speaking from my empty gut. (and still recalling the image of the Hamdog posted in a parallel thread) I don't think this is related to a specific cause or effect. If that happens it's not some kind of formula. People become what they are by what they choose. sh*t happens. We're still talking about a type of person here. Record nerds are not things, right? Dude'll get past the crazy eyed collectro point and just breakdown. All they want is to get stoned and boned. I mean one day they're listening to grandpa's Tom Jones LPs and next minute they're looking hard at their bowing shelves going what have I become. Dude, there's some heavy sounds in this collection. People are social people. Isolation isn't something people want.
There are definitely strong, barely beneath the surface issues with gender, sexuality, race and record collecting.
I think non-Black nerds are definitely facinated with, and maybe hoping to aquire by proximity some of the Hyper-Masculine Sexuality exuded by Black music artists (see E. Cleaver). Which is pretty polar opposite of the record nerds (ref. NYT article on definition of nerds = opposite of Black people).
So in some twisted way, collecting is related to displaying behavior meant to attract women, even though the effect is quite the opposite.[/b]
why does race come into this at all? it's music, who stands at the listening station tapping their foot and diggin a song and then reads the liner notes "WHAAAAAAAHH! this guy is WHITE! for shame, I better stuff this back on the shelf before someone see's me"
Maybe it's just because alot of "white" music isn't very good/appealing to music heads? I call bullshit.
There is such a vast range of record collectors and attitudes regarding record collecting that it's very questionable to try to "deconstruct" record collecting like this article attempts to do. There really is way too much junk in his writing about pathological record collectors who really do have an issue and shape their identity via their collection. I guess the article is fine if we're talking about obsessive white collectors of blue note raers, but it really breaks down if you try to apply it to pretty much anyone on this board or the now-typical collector who got into it via hip-hop/DJing.
why does race come into this at all? it's music, who stands at the listening station tapping their foot and diggin a song and then reads the liner notes "WHAAAAAAAHH! this guy is WHITE! for shame, I better stuff this back on the shelf before someone see's me"
It's not an issue of who the players are so much as the style of music. Gabbard actually has a whole secondary section about white jazz collectors who are into white jazz musician albums and how that's a safer route to express said latent desire for Black masculinity by going through a go-between. He applies similar reasoning to Elvis fans (and no doubt, one could say the same about Eminem's fanbase).
In the end, the idea being espoused here is that people just want to be Black and if they don't do it more directly by listening to Black artists, they listen to artists who embody a kind of Black masculine identity even if they, themselves, are not Black.
As to why "race comes into this at all," um - the history of American popular music is all about race? It's entirely inseparable from the music, its history and its fans and players alike. Get familiar.
why does race come into this at all? it's music, who stands at the listening station tapping their foot and diggin a song and then reads the liner notes "WHAAAAAAAHH! this guy is WHITE! for shame, I better stuff this back on the shelf before someone see's me"
It's not an issue of who the players are so much as the style of music. Gabbard actually has a whole secondary section about white jazz collectors who are into white jazz musician albums and how that's a safer route to express said latent desire for Black masculinity by going through a go-between. He applies similar reasoning to Elvis fans (and no doubt, one could say the same about Eminem's fanbase).
In the end, the idea being espoused here is that people just want to be Black and if they don't do it more directly by listening to Black artists, they listen to artists who embody a kind of Black masculine identity even if they, themselves, are not Black.
As to why "race comes into this at all," um - the history of American popular music is all about race? It's entirely inseparable from the music, its history and its fans and players alike. Get familiar.
so, some kid can't just walk into a record store, buy a jazz lp and go home and enjoy it without concerning himself (obviously not a girl right?) with the history of race and popular music?
what about the history of other countries music? intertwined with race?
if certain sounds are appealing to someone, who cares what color either of them are.
maybe white musicians just need to step their game up.
^^^^^^^ there's plenty of extremely talented white musicians. you must be joking.
this is obviously about stylistic borders. "music" in the abstract is not how people express themselves. people express themselves within defined musical boundaries, using musical languages that are inseparable from the cultures that created them.
What about if I'm listening to some Billie or Aretha? Does that mean I wanna be a black woman?
you don't necessarily want to be the singer, but showing appreciation for that "soulful" sound is a way of aligning yourself with a more traditionally black aesthetic.
but when people discuss "record collecting" I think that most associate it with jazz, a black dominated music form right?
I don't know, I haven't actually read the article. I know that the most sought after records in the world were recorded by white people.
I just think it's a little scary when people act like there's no correlation between being obsessed with collecting black music, and the actual everyday world of racial identity.
^^^^^ no no no, I only listen to salsa because I like to dance the mambo. I swear!!! the bongos are just better!!! If I heard a japanese pocket protector salsa conjunto, I would love them just as much!
believe me brethren, I'm not tryin to count me out.
but when people discuss "record collecting" I think that most associate it with jazz, a black dominated music form right?
I don't know, I haven't actually read the article. I know that the most sought after records in the world were recorded by white people.
I just think it's a little scary when people act like there's no correlation between being obsessed with collecting black music, and the actual everyday world of racial identity.
Most sought after records? by who ? i would say its prolly half and half between black and white, but alot of "white grails" are re-recordings of black music
I agree that if you "obsessed ith collecting black music" you might have some identity issues. what about people that get into records for the music, and dont give a shit about the history or skin colors of the muscians?
I know that the most sought after records in the world were recorded by white people.
Elaborate? What are the parameters of "most sought after"? Just curious because I bet if it were possible to compile a list of the 1,000 most valuable records, a large majority would be by black artists. Mostly 60s and 70s soul records. I could be wrong about "large majority" but I would say a sizeable percentage with more confidence.
PS: just saw that the previous poster beat me to the punch
Just to be clear, I am not trying devalue the importance of Black music in history or it's importance among collectors and music fans of all races ... but to assume that 60's and 70's soul music is the dominating genre of music collected is a remarkably narrow view, understandable because of the enviroment you operate within, but still highly debatable.
Very true, but I really feel like these are different realms of record collecting. The one most of us are in is as DJs/producers/music lovers, and dudes who are dropping $10,000 on that are just buying it for collector kitch and to floss it really. Same with dudes who will drop $500 on a butcher cover. It's a whole different mentality, apples and oranges.
Comments
I should have qualified - the second half of that quote (after the ...) is SPECIFICALLY referring to the character "Rob" from Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity." And the comment, in general, is an analysis of a particular kind of literary/cinematic figure of the collectro.
Ownership would pretty much shore up the association with "mastery" no?
I think the consumerism angle is an interesting one but again, the desire to own more toys is a particular form of masculine behavior, right? It just takes a slightly different form but one could argue the base drive is still there. I can spend more, ergo, I'm a bigger/better man than he who can't afford my sealed Boscoes.
Your quote said collecting, not specifically record collecting. We are both on (generally) the same page.
Oh yes they do. They do it in mysterious ways with their style, looks, boobies, and jewelry. All done silently with their eyes.
I haven't lived long enough to witness anyone in my lifetime but here's the thing. I'm speaking from my empty gut. (and still recalling the image of the Hamdog posted in a parallel thread) I don't think this is related to a specific cause or effect. If that happens it's not some kind of formula. People become what they are by what they choose. sh*t happens. We're still talking about a type of person here. Record nerds are not things, right? Dude'll get past the crazy eyed collectro point and just breakdown. All they want is to get stoned and boned. I mean one day they're listening to grandpa's Tom Jones LPs and next minute they're looking hard at their bowing shelves going what have I become. Dude, there's some heavy sounds in this collection. People are social people. Isolation isn't something people want.
why does race come into this at all? it's music, who stands at the listening station tapping their foot and diggin a song and then reads the liner notes "WHAAAAAAAHH! this guy is WHITE! for shame, I better stuff this back on the shelf before someone see's me"
Maybe it's just because alot of "white" music isn't very good/appealing to music heads? I call bullshit.
There is such a vast range of record collectors and attitudes regarding record collecting that it's very questionable to try to "deconstruct" record collecting like this article attempts to do. There really is way too much junk in his writing about pathological record collectors who really do have an issue and shape their identity via their collection. I guess the article is fine if we're talking about obsessive white collectors of blue note raers, but it really breaks down if you try to apply it to pretty much anyone on this board or the now-typical collector who got into it via hip-hop/DJing.
hah, like some ESP psyche business
It's not an issue of who the players are so much as the style of music. Gabbard actually has a whole secondary section about white jazz collectors who are into white jazz musician albums and how that's a safer route to express said latent desire for Black masculinity by going through a go-between. He applies similar reasoning to Elvis fans (and no doubt, one could say the same about Eminem's fanbase).
In the end, the idea being espoused here is that people just want to be Black and if they don't do it more directly by listening to Black artists, they listen to artists who embody a kind of Black masculine identity even if they, themselves, are not Black.
As to why "race comes into this at all," um - the history of American popular music is all about race? It's entirely inseparable from the music, its history and its fans and players alike. Get familiar.
so, some kid can't just walk into a record store, buy a jazz lp and go home and enjoy it without concerning himself (obviously not a girl right?) with the history of race and popular music?
what about the history of other countries music? intertwined with race?
if certain sounds are appealing to someone, who cares what color either of them are.
maybe white musicians just need to step their game up.
there's plenty of extremely talented white musicians. you must be joking.
this is obviously about stylistic borders. "music" in the abstract is not how people express themselves. people express themselves within defined musical boundaries, using musical languages that are inseparable from the cultures that created them.
you don't necessarily want to be the singer, but showing appreciation for that "soulful" sound is a way of aligning yourself with a more traditionally black aesthetic.
^^^^^^^^^^^
yes there are alot of very talented white musicians, i'm just, how do those blokes say it "taking the piss"
but when people discuss "record collecting" I think that most associate it with jazz, a black dominated music form right?
I don't know, I haven't actually read the article. I know that the most sought after records in the world were recorded by white people.
I just think it's a little scary when people act like there's no correlation between being obsessed with collecting black music, and the actual everyday world of racial identity.
no no no, I only listen to salsa because I like to dance the mambo. I swear!!! the bongos are just better!!! If I heard a japanese pocket protector salsa conjunto, I would love them just as much!
believe me brethren, I'm not tryin to count me out.
Most sought after records? by who ? i would say its prolly half and half between black and white, but alot of "white grails" are re-recordings of black music
I agree that if you "obsessed ith collecting black music" you might have some identity issues. what about people that get into records for the music, and dont give a shit about the history or skin colors of the muscians?
Elaborate? What are the parameters of "most sought after"? Just curious because I bet if it were possible to compile a list of the 1,000 most valuable records, a large majority would be by black artists. Mostly 60s and 70s soul records. I could be wrong about "large majority" but I would say a sizeable percentage with more confidence.
PS: just saw that the previous poster beat me to the punch
"classical" into popsike, just for starters.
importance of Black music in history or it's
importance among collectors and music fans of
all races ... but to assume that 60's and 70's
soul music is the dominating genre of music
collected is a remarkably narrow view, understandable
because of the enviroment you operate within, but
still highly debatable.
or go to top 25 most valuable , but they're pretty close, race wise.
http://popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?top25=all
Mozart/Pathe heat
Popsike is not shit, my man. Most soul records in the $3,000 and up range (of which there are many) are rarely sold through ebay.
Wouldn't that also be the case with other genres?
Very true, but I really feel like these are different realms of record collecting. The one most of us are in is as DJs/producers/music lovers, and dudes who are dropping $10,000 on that are just buying it for collector kitch and to floss it really. Same with dudes who will drop $500 on a butcher cover. It's a whole different mentality, apples and oranges.