The difference between Sun Ra and other "performers" is that he was like that all the time. He didn't step in and out of character. Certainly, there was a time in his life when he didn't talk about space and such (read the John Szwed biography "Space is the Place"). There was an evolution to be sure. But whatever it was he morphed into ... that was him. John Sinclair was recounting to a friend of mine about a time when Sun Ra was staying at, I believe, some frat house in Texas for a few days. He spent stretches of 10-12 hours or more down in the basement just rappin' his space jive. People would come in and out but he'd keep right on talking. Call him crazy, if you will. But, whatever he was, he was the genuine article.
He was also probably the most advanced jazz theorist of his time. John Gilmore, arguably one of the greatest tenor sax players, chose to remain with Sun Ra for the vast majority of his career ... not because of his space jive but because, harmonically speaking, he was "more stretched out than Monk". (...)
He was the real deal.
The difference, to me, is that Sun Ra was more committed to his schtick than other who reserve it only for their 'on stage' time. The fact that Sun Ra was on stage most of the day doesn't make it genuine to me, just more tireless. I can appreciate his endurance in a full-time job kind of way, but I still find it to be a put-on.
Yes, he was "also probably the most advanced jazz theorist of his time." I wasn't disputing his musical sincerity, just his theatrics. John Gilmore, arguably, one of the greatest... doesn't change my feelings about Sun Ra being of earth and not of "space."
So do you apply the same rules to Alice Cooper,Elton John,JimiHendrix,Kool Keith,David Bowie,Labelle,George Clinton,Andre 3000 Flushes,Kelis, and the other countless artists that inculcate "extra" theatrics into their expression?
Indeed, I do.
I don't know how much of a "rule" it is. I would compare it to the feeling of being bullshited. I think everyone has a general sense of when they're being lied to. Car salesmen, politicians, friends. I don't think musicians (or other artists) should be excluded from this experience.
When I hear Sun Ra tell me he's from space, I feel foolish letting myself believe him simply because I like his records. It's a schtick, one that I'm not inclined to buy into, no matter how long he kept it up (the Snagglepus post outlining when Ra "started" his space routine, describing how long he stayed "in character" only strengthens my argument).
ROGBIV. IMO. You'd probably prefer him w/out all the extremities but those extraneous appendages are part and parcel of the idea. Has there been an artist who has impressed you who has properly fused the "self-reinventing mysticism"ETC?
Hey, what does ROGBIV mean?
Exactly. I prefer Sun Ra without all the bullshit space stuff. They are part and parcel of his oeuvre, making me value his work less than I would if he didn't try to pull all that space bullshit with me.
Regarding other artists and self-reinventing mysticism: I'd say Steven Jesse Bernstein's Prison record is a perfect example. It's a genuine expression ("there has always been something wrong with my face"), one that engages me completely, even in it's wild theatrics ("pigeon shit rained from the sky") and absurdity. There is a certain degree of put-on in his routine, no doubt, that even Bernstein himself acknowledged. Knowing this, I accept the theatrics because, to me, they are believable, genuine, and engaging. More, Bernstein was able to take me from his uncomfortable childhood--riddled with abuse, polio, sexual ambiguity--and into a transformation, not without its perils, to a sort of rebirth. All without the obsfucation Sun Ra uses. There is no avoidance on the Bernstein record. When he comes to the rough part (sucking old men's dicks for money, for example) he goes through it rather than around it. [It's probably worth noting that Bernstein's going through it ended with him on a kitchen floor of an Indian reservation carving out his jugular veins with a steak knife. So, take from that sincerity what you will.]
This is a topic that seems to come up every so often; generally, the idea that a musician is above reproach or criticism (see the hundreds of "sell out" conversations (aka "Get Paid, Dog!"), victims of faddish culture, critical acclaim v. criminally slept on, any disparagement of the GOATs, et al.). When a poster argues against the status quo, he's met with countless replies of "WTF" accusations of disconnectedness, which are, no doubt, in turn, met with "fuck this place" and "you guys are fucking lame" or such reactionism. This is where the racist comments usually come in.
To me, it stems from the posit of two different type of people. Those who listen to music (the noise made by musicians) as the "thing," and those who consider the music as part of the artist's aesthetic, and not the most important part.
I am of the latter group. When I listen to music, I hear more than sound. When I think of music, I think of more than the sound. This is how I can appreciate, without inconsistency, one artist while disparaging another artist of the same set (enter faux_rills: "You don't like rap!"). This is also how I can appreciate two artists who sound completely different for the same reason.
David Yow's drunk asshole routine, spitting and screaming and throwing himself into the crowd, is an aesthetic that I am engrossed with. Seeing him perform is inspirational to me. Take any other dimwit doing the same thing and I will most likely fall asleep.
Bob Dylan, the "voice of a generation," doesn't say as much to me as Ramblin' Jack Elliott, an "arguably" lesser figure in the folk world.
Willie Nelson has ten times the mettle of Johnny Cash, and can play circles around him.
I get more out of a T-Love song than I do a Kelis song (regardless of their milkshakes or chart strengths).
I love William Basinski's ambient tape loops and I am totally bored by those Aphex Twin ambient recordings.
Beatles? Yea, great band. Huge influence. Changed the world. Martyrs of pop. The innovative studio work. And all the other shit people say about them. I'm largely not whet (delicious), and usually pull anything else off the shelf instead of their records.
This same criteria is within you. I'm not saying the Beatles leave you generally unimpressed, that's your decision.
So then, what about Sun Ra's "Space" customs do you find genuinely engaging. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion, honestly. That is, engage me without a fucking picture of Batman or some "HUGE COSINE"/"KNOWLEDGE DROPPED" shit. I'm open to captivation. (Page me.)
As a Black Man, I find SunRa's Imagery/Fantasy/Alter-Ego very engaging. He's referencing many ancient concepts/etc. No different from Afrika Bambaataa or X-Clan. Im a Sci-fi cat. A Superhero cat. An African History Cat. An African Cosmology cat. Sun-Ra reps alot of the otherworldy idea that Black folks arent given the credit for. And its all chanelled through the music. Thanks for this. It reminds me of something I forgot. Years ago Tsega and I saw a documentary, as part of a music festival, that dealt with the Black artist's fascination with space. It seemed like an absurd thing to me. Like, how could you fill a documentary with the examination of Black's fixation with outer space?
But I was wrong. Not only was the movie (it's been years, I wish I could remember the name?) convincing, but it was quite rousing, and had me thinking about things that had never entered my realm of possibility. I think I am polar opposite from you in the superhero/cosmology/sci-fi sense, I have little interest in such things, which probably adds to my misgivings about Sun Ra, specifically.
I get more out of a T-Love song than I do a Kelis song (regardless of their milkshakes or chart strengths).
How come nobody loves T-Love? I love T-Love. Both her Return of the B-Girl EP and her Long Way Back LP merit repeated listenings. And I hear she's putting out a record of rare and unreleased recordings from the 90s, for which I am rather psyched.
As for Sun Ra, I haven't heard enough of his music to make a final decision, but a lot of the stuff I've heard has kind of bored me. But maybe I haven't heard the right stuff.
The outerspace/cosmology/dogon stuff is interesting, but I am not persuaded that it would take me anywhere good if I tried to follow his logic or his path. It's probably deeper than the Digable Planets "we're all insects" schtick on their first record, but I don't think that's saying a whole lot. And I love the Digable Planets.
Comments
I just like the way music sounds.
Ahh, R.O.Y.[/b]G.B.I.V.
As a Black Man, I find SunRa's Imagery/Fantasy/Alter-Ego very engaging. He's referencing many ancient concepts/etc. No different from Afrika Bambaataa or X-Clan. Im a Sci-fi cat. A Superhero cat. An African History Cat. An African Cosmology cat. Sun-Ra reps alot of the otherworldy idea that Black folks arent given the credit for. And its all chanelled through the music.
Thanks for this. It reminds me of something I forgot. Years ago Tsega and I saw a documentary, as part of a music festival, that dealt with the Black artist's fascination with space. It seemed like an absurd thing to me. Like, how could you fill a documentary with the examination of Black's fixation with outer space?
But I was wrong. Not only was the movie (it's been years, I wish I could remember the name?) convincing, but it was quite rousing, and had me thinking about things that had never entered my realm of possibility. I think I am polar opposite from you in the superhero/cosmology/sci-fi sense, I have little interest in such things, which probably adds to my misgivings about Sun Ra, specifically.
Thank you for the spectrum.
How come nobody loves T-Love? I love T-Love. Both her Return of the B-Girl EP and her Long Way Back LP merit repeated listenings. And I hear she's putting out a record of rare and unreleased recordings from the 90s, for which I am rather psyched.
As for Sun Ra, I haven't heard enough of his music to make a final decision, but a lot of the stuff I've heard has kind of bored me. But maybe I haven't heard the right stuff.
The outerspace/cosmology/dogon stuff is interesting, but I am not persuaded that it would take me anywhere good if I tried to follow his logic or his path. It's probably deeper than the Digable Planets "we're all insects" schtick on their first record, but I don't think that's saying a whole lot. And I love the Digable Planets.
Apropos of nothing, Go Ducks.
JRoot