I feel like starting some shit

The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
edited April 2005 in Strut Central
I couldnt sleep so I was thumbin through an old copy of Wax Poetics and I was reading that piece on Jack(off) Ashford. Reading his comments about Stax like (paraphrased)"there was no competition, we were number one" "Memphis is just Elvis and "Shaft"" "Stax stole everything from Motown, those guitars? thats "papa was a rolling stone" and other bullshit like that ruffled my feathers. Also, listening to the "music snob" mp3 and hearing the "Stax is junior varsity soul"(I know it was a joke, but I am sure people feel this way) made me think about HOW MUCH MORE KICK ASS STAX IS OVER MOTOWN. I know that is a controversial phrase, but thats my opinion. Man there wasnt ANY FUCKING GRIT in motown records until AFTER STAX put out some ass kickers. Whats really funny is that Motown was black label that put out records that mostly white folks bought and Stax was a white label that put out records that mainly black folks bought. Now I have some Motown sides I absolutely love, but in a cage-match-fight-to-the-death battle Stax would piss all over Hitsville, yeah I said it...so...Motown Vs. Stax...??? who would you pickIf you pick Motown, let me call you a panty-waist and/or British right now.
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  • DocBeezyDocBeezy 1,918 Posts
    Stax for sure. Even though I am from MI. I still have to go with Stax. Better feel.

  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    Here's a battle I can join...

    The whole Motown vs Stax is a false opposition: the two outfits had more in common than not, Detroit arrangers & writers like Don Davis became integral to the later Stax sound etc.

    Anyway: that whole 'motown is for white folks' arguement is retarded, only white record nerds with concerns about 'authentic black music' would make it - in fact, I would say that Motown represented the higher societal aspirations of African-Americans while Stax leaned on a cliched bluesy "give me a pigfoot & a bottle of beer" style...

    ---




  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    Here's a battle I can join...

    The whole Motown vs Stax is a false opposition: the two outfits had more in common than not, Detroit arrangers & writers like Don Davis became integral to the later Stax sound etc.

    Anyway: that whole 'motown is for white folks' arguement is retarded, only white record nerds with concerns about 'authentic black music' would make it - in fact, I would say that Motown represented the higher societal aspirations of African-Americans while Stax leaned on a cliched bluesy "give me a pigfoot & a bottle of beer" style...

    ---




    this is what I was talking about!
    alright we are getting started...you ever been in south Memphis? It is a place where to this day you can get a beer and a plate of neckbones, so I dont think they were making cliched music, it was what was going on outside on McLemore Ave. There werent any schools in that neighborhood where you could learn the difference between what fork was for the salad and which one was used for dessert. I never said one was "authentic" or one was "for white people", I just said that more white people bought Motown records which is evident in their having way more pop hits in the 60s than Stax.

    I am aware of the label having a lot in common, but the differences between Stax and Motown in the 60s are great music-wise. Although Stax was listening to Motown because many of Stax's writers felt that Motown was on the top of their game when it came to Lyrics, but musically, Stax, in the 60s, was doing their own thing which had so much more life and power than Motown.

  • I would choose Stax, but that doesn't mean that Motown wasn't a serious contender. I've always preferred the grittier sounds, and I took Motown for granted for many years, but the deeper you look the more absolutely brilliant, utterly unfuckwithable records are to be found on Motown (and subsidiary labels). There's certainly a stylistic bias in the Motown sound toward what became known as Northern Soul (much of what is known as Northern Soul is other labels imitating the Motown sound), as opposed to the deeper/funkier Southern sound of Stax/Volt.

  • KineticKinetic 3,739 Posts
    in a cage-match-fight-to-the-death battle Stax would piss all over Motown
    I really don't have THAT many motown records in my collection, i dunno, maybe 15-20? All I can think of that i would really miss is Edwin Star - hell up in harlem! But could I let Rufus Thomas go? I doubt it.

  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    dunno about South Memphis, but Detroit is as ghetto as you like, there are whole swaths of the metro area on some rural Missisippi steez.



    Musically; on one hand, heyday Motown records tend to be over-arranged & too busy sounding, on the other, heyday Stax records all are quite samey due to the continual use of Booker T/MGs as musicians & Hayes/Porter as writers. Motown had many more writers & players & thus their sound is all over the place.



    I tend to like the Stax records that are more eccentric sounding - 'After Laughter' leaps to mind, as for 'Knock on Wood' etc I have 2 words for you: 'Blues Brothers'...

  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts
    I have 2 words for you: 'Blues Brothers'...

    come on now, that movie was made years after Stax closed its doors...dont make me post Jermaine Jackson 80s LP sleeves.

  • DenmarkVZDenmarkVZ 397 Posts
    I'm from South Carolina, so it has been Stax all the way. Motown sounded like classical music to me. Then I realized I didn't know shit about Motown really because the records were not circulating too much down south where I was digging. Since I've been in DC, I've got turned on to Motown and subs (esp. circa 68-74).

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts

    Anyway: that whole 'motown is for white folks' arguement is retarded, only white record nerds with concerns about 'authentic black music' would make it - in fact, I would say that Motown represented the higher societal aspirations of African-Americans....

    Yes. Motown made no secret of their crossover aspirations, but I don't think the idea was to cultivate white listeners at the exclusion of black listeners, and I don't think that was what happened either. The Temptations were strictly for white folks? Please...

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    I find Motown on the whole to be more inventive than Stax, but I am a sucker for the gritty southern soul sound. Motown is more mannered, but often sonically superior than Stax in general. In the history of what and how they accomplished, commerce-wise and artistically, what they accomplished...Motown again holds down the lead. I don't know...Motown has the solid lead on paper, but I can't help feeling that I would miss my Stax sides more. For me, though, a lot is based on the fact that I have come to a better knowledge of Stax later in life, and Motown is so deeply ingrained in most American's audio history that we take it for granted. I mean, a Temptations anthology is worth more than most labels' entire output, and that still doesn't really cover adequately Motown's impact on music WORLDWIDE.

    So I'm going with Motown(with a heart full of southern Stax Soul)

  • Musically; on one hand, heyday Motown records tend to be over-arranged & too busy sounding, on the other, heyday Stax records all are quite samey due to the continual use of Booker T/MGs as musicians & Hayes/Porter as writers. Motown had many more writers & players & thus their sound is all over the place.

    What about the Funk Brothers? Didn't they play on like every Motown hit?



    I tend to like the Stax records that are more eccentric sounding - 'After Laughter' leaps to mind, as for 'Knock on Wood' etc I have 2 words for you: 'Blues Brothers'...

    2 words: Buddy Guy, motherfucker.

    Sorry. That was 3 words.

  • DenmarkVZDenmarkVZ 397 Posts
    I been wanting to do a slept on Motown thread for some time. Maybe I should go ahead and start it here?



    Undisputed Truth--Cosmic Truth[/b]



    I've seen UT records linger in dollar bins for weeks. Damn shame. I mean if you look at the gatefold on Cosmic Truth that should be enough. I don???t know a whole lot about who used what break where. But the break on here is insane.



    BTW-Here???s Motown67???s review.



    The Undisputed Truth was one of the new acts signed to Motown Records at the beginning of the 1970s to take the label into the new decade. They were put into the able hands of Norman Whitefield who was by far the funkiest producer on the label and responsible for the Temptations??? best work in the late 60s/early 70s. Whitfield got them a hit on their first self-titled album with Smiling Faces Sometime and ended up turning them into a make-up and whig wearing Funkadelic/Parliament take-off group. The future of the group and producer looked golden. Whitfield ended up leaving Motown however, the Undisputed Truth got put on the backburner, and they left Motown as well. This record shows the obvious George Clinton influences on the cover art and music. The first side has a decent cover of Down By The River, but the second side is much more consistent.


    Bonus:



    David Ruffin???Rock and Roll is Here to Stay[/b]


  • BigSpliffBigSpliff 3,266 Posts


    Vs.


  • Now there's no way I could choose between Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding...

    between Sam And Dave and the Temps

    between The Marvelettes and The Charmells

    between The Mad LAds and the Miracles

    between Mary Wells and The Emotions


    perhaps I could pick Stax/Volt for the 45's and Motown for the lp's?

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    more like:



    vs.



    if ya really wanna come sideways...

    but it's really about this:



    =



    not better or worse, but TREMENDOUS achievement.

  • SoulhawkSoulhawk 3,197 Posts
    "rectum? damn near killed 'em..."

    1. there were like 30 "Funk Brothers"

    2. I would suggest all eurotrash tourists check out a little spot called 'House of the Blues' - they serve authentic negro cusine there & it is quite tasty.

    3. Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, "My People Hold On" etc.




  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Now there's no way I could choose between Marvin Gaye and Otis Redding...

    between Sam And Dave and the Temps

    between The Marvelettes and The Charmells

    between The Mad LAds and the Miracles

    between Mary Wells and The Emotions

    between Rare Earth and Big Star?

    Seriously, at this point I dig both labels equally, but if I had to choose, it'd be Stax. Motown's biggest hits are MAD overexposed, and there are still certain songs from that catalog that I can't listen to anymore.

  • Oh man, Rare Earth hands down!


  • stax,and i just copped volume 3 stax for a buck son

  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    i just copped volume 3 stax for a buck son


  • Oh man, Rare Earth hands down!


    The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
    Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
    Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.

    I always wondered if Rare Earth were actually responsible for the folks that they signed to their imprint on motown.

    what other subsidaries did motown have? tamla, rare earth, soul, what else?

    stax had enterprise, gospel truth, volt, what else?

  • what other subsidaries did motown have? tamla, rare earth, soul, what else?



  • Birdman9Birdman9 5,417 Posts
    what other subsidaries did motown have? tamla, rare earth, soul, what else?



    MoWest and Black Forum

  • DCarfagnaDCarfagna 983 Posts

    Pretty evenly balanced labels, I just wish that Stax could have come with some of that "Date With The Rain" or Edwin Starr's "Running Back And Forth"-type modern crossover slick shit. You can kind of get that from Al Bell, but not until he set up ICA in Washington DC after the fall of the empire in the mid-70s.
    Largely though, I feel that Motown was Black Pop aimed at the radio and Stax was Outdoor Soul aimed at the barbeque.

  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    I always wondered if Rare Earth were actually responsible for the folks that they signed to their imprint on motown.

    Probably not (even though Rare Earth, the band, had more releases on the R.E. label than anyone else) - I thought it was Motown's idea to name their rock label that.

    CTI/Kudu were distributed by Motown for a spell. And then there were Motown's occasional stabs at starting a country label (Mel-o-dy, Melodyland, and Hitsville).


  • The_Hook_UpThe_Hook_Up 8,182 Posts

    Anyway: that whole 'motown is for white folks' arguement is retarded, only white record nerds with concerns about 'authentic black music' would make it - in fact, I would say that Motown represented the higher societal aspirations of African-Americans....

    Yes. Motown made no secret of their crossover aspirations, but I don't think the idea was to cultivate white listeners at the exclusion of black listeners, and I don't think that was what happened either. The Temptations were strictly for white folks? Please...

    does anybody read anymore?...please show me where I said this...all I stated was that more white folks BOUGHT motown records...

  • pickwick33pickwick33 8,946 Posts
    Pretty evenly balanced labels, I just wish that Stax could have come with some of that "Date With The Rain" or Edwin Starr's "Running Back And Forth"-type modern crossover slick shit. You can kind of get that from Al Bell, but not until he set up ICA in Washington DC after the fall of the empire in the mid-70s.

    Hmmm, most of the ICA that I've heard was soul-blues similar to what Stax put out (L.V. Johnson, Frank Lucas, Margie Evans).

    And if we were to name all the sub-labels that Stax and Motown had, we'd be here all day and all of the night...

  • CosmoCosmo 9,768 Posts
    I feel that Motown was Black Pop aimed at the radio and Stax was Outdoor Soul aimed at the barbeque.

    I feel this is a fair statment.

  • SoulOnIceSoulOnIce 13,027 Posts
    Man there wasnt ANY FUCKING GRIT in motown records until AFTER STAX put out some ass kickers.

    Actually, early Motown is pretty damn gritty at times. I have the first Motown comp LP, "Hits Vol. 1" from '62, and all the early Miracles tracks, the Valadiers, the non-ballad Eddie Holland tracks are more R&B than pop...the early Mary Wells hit, "One Who Really Loves You," sounds like some shit on Stax from 4 years later, just a piano-guitar-bass-drum backing.

    And remember, when Marvin Gaye & Stevie Wonder were making masterpieces, Stax were putting all their money behind Johnny Taylor and The Soul Children.

    Not that I'm choosing Motown over Stax, I think the essence of the argument is that they ARE two different styled labels, and really don't compare well, if only to ask "which one would you give up?"

    I'm more freaked out by Checker/Cotillion records from the late 60's, when they were sending all the Chicago artists down South to record in Alabama, that was some interesting shit, and made for some dope records.

    My vote goes with this astute option:

    perhaps I could pick Stax/Volt for the 45's and Motown for the lp's?


  • And if we were to name all the sub-labels that Stax and Motown had, we'd be here all day and all of the night...

    Most of us are...
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