Besides standing up against the "war",which is no-brainer,what else has Obama stood for and made one of his larger issues?
You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but uh look at his chief competition in the primaries.
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates. He's not a soft/moderate liberal like clinton. You can't imagine him pandering on an issue like flag burning, for example.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
I would love for dolo to explain how Obama's rhetoric in speeches is any more empty than GWs or even Reagan's, except that would require engaging w/ a delusioned rightwing herb
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
I genuinely don't understand how people can say that Obama doesn't have 'a stance' on issues. Do some damn research http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
Besides standing up against the "war",which is no-brainer,what else has Obama stood for and made one of his larger issues?
You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but uh look at his chief competition in the primaries.
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
I would love for dolo to explain how Obama's rhetoric in speeches is any more empty than GWs or even Reagan's, except that would require engaging w/ a delusioned rightwing herb
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
Great.. But elections are not won by saying you were against the war. And his lack of experience and almost non existent voting record history will not help. You underestimate the power of the soccer mom vote.
I have no idea who is putting these thoughts into Obama's head to run right now. But they should be canned. I'm picturing Eddie Murphy in Delirious. With someone saying in his ear "Obama you can win." "You can win Obama, coz you're bigger than motherfucking Hillary Rodham Clinton."
But then I could always be wrong and he turns out to be Harold Washington...
That all said. I would rather see him in office than Clinton.
Besides standing up against the "war",which is no-brainer,what else has Obama stood for and made one of his larger issues?
You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but uh look at his chief competition in the primaries.
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
I would love for dolo to explain how Obama's rhetoric in speeches is any more empty than GWs or even Reagan's, except that would require engaging w/ a delusioned rightwing herb
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
Great.. But elections are not won by saying you were against the war. And his lack of experience and almost non existent voting record history will not help. You underestimate the power of the soccer mom vote.
i think, as hillary is proving, a voter record can be a good or bad thing. what does the soccer mom vote have to do w/ how long obama's been a senator. and i don't know why you brought up harold washington
Besides standing up against the "war",which is no-brainer,what else has Obama stood for and made one of his larger issues?
You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but uh look at his chief competition in the primaries.
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
I would love for dolo to explain how Obama's rhetoric in speeches is any more empty than GWs or even Reagan's, except that would require engaging w/ a delusioned rightwing herb
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
Great.. But elections are not won by saying you were against the war. And his lack of experience and almost non existent voting record history will not help. You underestimate the power of the soccer mom vote.
i think, as hillary is proving, a voter record can be a good or bad thing.
what does the soccer mom vote have to do w/ how long obama's been a senator. and i don't know why you brought up harold washington
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
Deej, did I say anything about what "anyone" thought? I referred only to Obama's own aspirations, which were undoubtedly in place by that point--he probably discovered his desire to be president at about the same age that most people on this board discovered their passion for music.
And you're just plain wrong--while they may not have envisioned him running quite this soon, lots of people (including a non-Illinoisian like me) viewed him as an eventual presidential hopeful well before the convention speech.
Great.. But elections are not won by saying you were against the war. And his lack of experience and almost non existent voting record history will not help. You underestimate the power of the soccer mom vote.
i think, as hillary is proving, a voter record can be a good or bad thing. what does the soccer mom vote have to do w/ how long obama's been a senator. and i don't know why you brought up harold washington
Because soccer moms vote. And as history shows time & time again. Trying to galvanize the youth vote doesn't. And soccer moms will come out in droves to vote for a potential female President.
I was using Washington, just to go along with the delirious skit. Made me think that someone has been whispering in Obama's ear. Pushing him, instead of someone preparing & nurturing him for greatness. And using Harold Washington was because, in reality... WTF do I know and he could pull it off. Long shots aren't an impossible outcome!
Another reason I prefer Obama to Hillary is that he's able to speak to the rhetorical center while Hillary tends towards divisivness, even though politically she's closer to the center than he is.
He's supported by Durbin, who is my senator and has one of the best voting records in the senate
Further, he's comfortable talking about religion in a way that the vast majority of the democratic party isn't.
And you're just plain wrong--while they may not have envisioned him running quite this soon, lots of people (including a non-Illinoisian like me) viewed him as an eventual presidential hopeful well before the convention speech.
Dude nobody in '04 was talking president seriously. There was 'golden child' and 'promising political career' talk but it wasn't really much of anything beyond that. I've seen an extensive interview w/ obama from around '03 that doesn't even mention it as an idea. I followed that election closely and I remember reading this article http://www.altweeklies.com/gyrobase/AltWeeklies/Story?oid=oid%3A146687 you'll notice there's really no mention of 'presidential' or anything remotely close to that language in his writeup.
i disagree w/ this just because kerry didn't galvanize the youth vote =/ the youth vote is meaningless i just didn't understand why you think soccer moms are going to be voting on something like 'senate voting record' rather than the issues that matter to them.
And you're just plain wrong--while they may not have envisioned him running quite this soon, lots of people (including a non-Illinoisian like me) viewed him as an eventual presidential hopeful well before the convention speech.
Dude nobody in '04 was talking president seriously. There was 'golden child' and 'promising political career' talk but it wasn't really much of anything beyond that. I've seen an extensive interview w/ obama from around '03 that doesn't even mention it as an idea. I followed that election closely and I remember reading this article
me think that someone has been whispering in Obama's ear. Pushing him, instead of someone preparing & nurturing him for greatness.
I doubt Obama is as malleable as you suggest... your post actually borders on offensive.
Understandable it could come off as that. But it's not meant in that form. The fact is, every politician have people behind them. And many tend to sometime push candidates before they are truly ready. And "IMO", I believe this is the case. Listening to his words on running for the last 3 years makes me believe this.
I am 100% positive that he has the right stuff. But I'm also 100% positive that he's not ready. And going up against Hillary will end up hurting him.
Hillary knew that running in 2004 was the wrong move. Patience is a virtue
me think that someone has been whispering in Obama's ear. Pushing him, instead of someone preparing & nurturing him for greatness.
I doubt Obama is as malleable as you suggest... your post actually borders on offensive.
Understandable it could come off as that. But it's not meant in that form. The fact is, every politician have people behind them. And many tend to sometime push candidates before they are truly ready. And "IMO", I believe this is the case. Listening to his words on running for the last 3 years makes me believe this.
I am 100% positive that he has the right stuff. But I'm also 100% positive that he's not ready. And going up against Hillary will end up hurting him.
Hillary knew that running in 2004 was the wrong move. Patience is a virtue
Couldnt he join her? Then take command next time around.
Waiting until 2012 doesnt make sense. if (when?) hillary wins she's not going to just step down in '12 to let another candidate run from the dems, barring any unexpected situation
me think that someone has been whispering in Obama's ear. Pushing him, instead of someone preparing & nurturing him for greatness.
I doubt Obama is as malleable as you suggest... your post actually borders on offensive.
Understandable it could come off as that. But it's not meant in that form. The fact is, every politician have people behind them. And many tend to sometime push candidates before they are truly ready. And "IMO", I believe this is the case. Listening to his words on running for the last 3 years makes me believe this.
I am 100% positive that he has the right stuff. But I'm also 100% positive that he's not ready. And going up against Hillary will end up hurting him.
Hillary knew that running in 2004 was the wrong move. Patience is a virtue
Couldnt he join her? Then take command next time around.
I think it would be a smart move for the dems to go with Obama cause the cultural climate is perfect in America for Barak Obama to win the presidency. There's a lot of Liberal guilt floating around on account of the war in Iraq & minorities are miffed at all this illegal alien ish. Clinton is a woman, so she has that going for her. Its real saavy on the part of the dems to sense that a white male president is just not in vogue at the moment. Now we just have to wait & see who American voters feel more drawn to. This will be better than the Super Bowl.
There is nothing to criticise him for precisely because he has said and done nothing.
He became the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. You can think that Law Review is all for a bunch of fakers, and that Harvard is elitist and wack, but it's still a pretty heady accomplishment.
He was a community organizer in Chicago. Oh but because the "community" he was organizing was on the southside I suppose that is "nothing."
He was a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago, which if you haven't checked your latest grad school rankings, is in the top ten. "Nothing."
He was a state senator in Illinois, where he spearheaded legislation to provide health care to poor kids statewide. Again "nothing."
He hasn't done much since joining the Senate in 2004 because the Senate is an old boys network that depends mightily on seniority for anyone to accomplish anything. On the seniority list, he's 88th out of 100. You try getting much accomplished when you're the most junior member of the Foreign Relations Committee in the Senate. Good luck, dolo.
The only thing that distinguishes him from someone like edwards is his skin color.
That's like saying the only thin that distinguishes me from you is I'm not a racist. It may be the most important difference, but it's not the only difference. While Edwards was making a mint as a plaintiffs lawyer, Obama was trying to make the world better for others besides himself and his very fortunate client.
Waiting until 2012 doesnt make sense. if (when?) hillary wins she's not going to just step down in '12 to let another candidate run from the dems, barring any unexpected situation
in '04, Kerry got about 2.9 million votes in Illinois. Bush got about 2.35. third party candidates got less than 40,000. Obama got 3.6 million. The rest of the vote in the Senate race was about a mil and a half. Obama got at least 20% of Bush voters.
Besides standing up against the "war",which is no-brainer,what else has Obama stood for and made one of his larger issues?
You'd think it would be a no-brainer, but uh look at his chief competition in the primaries.
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates. He's not a soft/moderate liberal like clinton. You can't imagine him pandering on an issue like flag burning, for example.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
you are obviously right that hillary has catered more to the center, but, and i think we've had this discussion before, obama is not the gun slinger you suggest or want him to be. not even close. he is calculated and simply not a risk taker. yes, he has been against the war, but you won't hear him give bush an ass-ripping, like Howard Dean or Al Gore.
Obama has also made some criticized decisions, like voting for a border fence, campaigning for Joe Lieberman, voting for class action reform, voting to confirm Condi Rice as secretary of state, and simply not being a progressive democrat.
its easy to say, go look at obama's website for his position on the issues. however, he has been in the senate for a few years now. what legislation has he introduced? i think the answer might be none.
dont get me wrong, i MIGHT vote for Obama over Hillary or any other Dem. but, like a lot of other democrats, i want someone who has balls. Dean has balls. Obama might, but he doesnt right now.
in '04, Kerry got about 2.9 million votes in Illinois. Bush got about 2.35. third party candidates got less than 40,000. Obama got 3.6 million. The rest of the vote in the Senate race was about a mil and a half. Obama got at least 20% of Bush voters.
Please bear in mind that the original Senate opponent, Jack Ryan, bailed on the campaign when his ex-wife revealed that he dragged her, against her will and crying, to a public sex show somewhere in Europe. At that point, Obama's star was rising and the GOP couldn't find anyone willing to enter late in the race against him. Anyone, that is, EXCEPT ALAN KEYES. I saw two Alan Keyes signs statewide, and was surprised he got as many votes as he did. And then he refused to give a concession speech. It was weird.
But even still, Obama has a very broad appeal. Plus he accomplished a fair amount of good in the state senate, which accounts for his support in Illinois.
1. Obama's a jr. senator in the U.S. senate! The entire system there is based on seniority. Of course he's not introducing bills
2. He doesn't spend time railing against bush in general because thats not his rhetorical style, and thats why people like him; he speaks from the rhetorical center, w/out the irrational condescension liberals so frequently get blamed for. (that said he's been extremely outspoken on the iraq war and bush's foreign policy and has a plan that has that troops coming home in '08 vs. Clinton who hasn't even proposed a date)
3. I'm not expecting dude to have a Kennedy-like voting record but if you look at the voting patterns he's just a bit more conservative than Feingold and is considerably more liberal than clinton, which passes enough of a litmus test for a guy who has to get at least 50% of the vote in the United State of america, the same country responsible for this:
in '04, Kerry got about 2.9 million votes in Illinois. Bush got about 2.35. third party candidates got less than 40,000. Obama got 3.6 million. The rest of the vote in the Senate race was about a mil and a half. Obama got at least 20% of Bush voters.
Please bear in mind that the original Senate opponent, Jack Ryan, bailed on the campaign when his ex-wife revealed that he dragged her, against her will and crying, to a public sex show somewhere in Europe. At that point, Obama's star was rising and the GOP couldn't find anyone willing to enter late in the race against him. Anyone, that is, EXCEPT ALAN KEYES. I saw two Alan Keyes signs statewide, and was surprised he got as many votes as he did. And then he refused to give a concession speech. It was weird.
But even still, Obama has a very broad appeal. Plus he accomplished a fair amount of good in the state senate, which accounts for his support in Illinois.
if we were talking about a margin of like 4 or 5%, I would put it up to Alan Keys, but 20% of Bush republicans voting for a black liberal with a foriegn-sounding name is pretty impressive regardless of opponent.
1. Obama's a jr. senator in the U.S. senate! The entire system there is based on seniority. Of course he's not introducing bills
2. He doesn't spend time railing against bush in general because thats not his rhetorical style, and thats why people like him; he speaks from the rhetorical center, w/out the irrational condescension liberals so frequently get blamed for.
3. I'm not expecting dude to have a Kennedy-like voting record but if you look at the voting patterns he's just a bit more conservative than Feingold and is considerably more liberal than clinton, which passes enough of a litmus test for a guy who has to get at least 50% of the vote in the United State of america, the same country responsible for this:
yea, he is a junior senator running for president. the issue isnt whether he has introduced legislation that has passed, its whether he has introduced legislation...period. i dont want a democrat who is sitting on his hands trying to be quiet and calculated. that is basically why you are critical of HIllary, right? the truth is that while she throws the republicans a bone once in a while, at least she is right in the mix, taking positions and making decisions.
his voting record is relevant but not that important. how many signficant legislative votes have their been? the fact that he overwhelmingly votes left doesn't tell me everything i need to know about him as a candidate.
the election is almost 2 years away. Obama might shine during his run or he might come off looking like a chump. its too early to tell. its also wayyy too early to be cheerleading for him.
The argument that people "don't know" Obama is so lazy. The dude wrote two books, the most recent of which lays out his entire politcal philosophy. If anyone wants to get to know him, go to the bookstore. Plus, he is already, wisely, turning his "lack of experience" to his advantage: Less time in Washington, fewer bed fellows.
Comments
As far as a litmus test goes he does a better job (is more on point) than any of the other candidates. He's not a soft/moderate liberal like clinton. You can't imagine him pandering on an issue like flag burning, for example.
What has hillary stood for and made one of her larger issues? The only thing anyone is talking about right now is the war, obama, hillary, mccain, whoever. Its THE defining issue at this point.
I would love for dolo to explain how Obama's rhetoric in speeches is any more empty than GWs or even Reagan's, except that would require engaging w/ a delusioned rightwing herb
Also faux rillz, i really doubt anyone thought Obama was close to a presidential contender until he made the speech at the democratic convention, including himself. Until Jack Ryan self-destructed, the race in Illinois was expected to be extremely close for his senate seat.
I genuinely don't understand how people can say that Obama doesn't have 'a stance' on issues. Do some damn research
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
And if I was a registered voter who didnt have a computer? Sorry off track there.
Great.. But elections are not won by saying you were against the war. And his lack of experience and almost non existent voting record history will not help. You underestimate the power of the soccer mom vote.
I have no idea who is putting these thoughts into Obama's head to run right now. But they should be canned. I'm picturing Eddie Murphy in Delirious. With someone saying in his ear "Obama you can win." "You can win Obama, coz you're bigger than motherfucking Hillary Rodham Clinton."
But then I could always be wrong and he turns out to be Harold Washington...
That all said. I would rather see him in office than Clinton.
what does the soccer mom vote have to do w/ how long obama's been a senator.
and i don't know why you brought up harold washington
Washington surprisingly won.
Deej, did I say anything about what "anyone" thought? I referred only to Obama's own aspirations, which were undoubtedly in place by that point--he probably discovered his desire to be president at about the same age that most people on this board discovered their passion for music.
And you're just plain wrong--while they may not have envisioned him running quite this soon, lots of people (including a non-Illinoisian like me) viewed him as an eventual presidential hopeful well before the convention speech.
Because soccer moms vote. And as history shows time & time again. Trying to galvanize the youth vote doesn't. And soccer moms will come out in droves to vote for a potential female President.
I was using Washington, just to go along with the delirious skit. Made me think that someone has been whispering in Obama's ear. Pushing him, instead of someone preparing & nurturing him for greatness. And using Harold Washington was because, in reality... WTF do I know and he could pull it off. Long shots aren't an impossible outcome!
He's supported by Durbin, who is my senator and has one of the best voting records in the senate
Further, he's comfortable talking about religion in a way that the vast majority of the democratic party isn't.
I doubt Obama is as malleable as you suggest... your post actually borders on offensive.
you'll notice there's really no mention of 'presidential' or anything remotely close to that language in his writeup.
just because kerry didn't galvanize the youth vote =/ the youth vote is meaningless
i just didn't understand why you think soccer moms are going to be voting on something like 'senate voting record' rather than the issues that matter to them.
Were people talking '04? No
Was it all a little fantastic at that point? Sure
Was there there presidential talk prior to the convention speech? Absolutely
There was a major New Yorker profile in May 04, that I specifically recall.
This is all tangential to the original point--what Obama's own aspirations were--so try to reign yourself in.
Understandable it could come off as that. But it's not meant in that form. The fact is, every politician have people behind them. And many tend to sometime push candidates before they are truly ready. And "IMO", I believe this is the case. Listening to his words on running for the last 3 years makes me believe this.
I am 100% positive that he has the right stuff. But I'm also 100% positive that he's not ready. And going up against Hillary will end up hurting him.
Hillary knew that running in 2004 was the wrong move. Patience is a virtue
Couldnt he join her? Then take command next time around.
The Dems should really be thinking this.
He became the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. You can think that Law Review is all for a bunch of fakers, and that Harvard is elitist and wack, but it's still a pretty heady accomplishment.
He was a community organizer in Chicago. Oh but because the "community" he was organizing was on the southside I suppose that is "nothing."
He was a constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago, which if you haven't checked your latest grad school rankings, is in the top ten. "Nothing."
He was a state senator in Illinois, where he spearheaded legislation to provide health care to poor kids statewide. Again "nothing."
He hasn't done much since joining the Senate in 2004 because the Senate is an old boys network that depends mightily on seniority for anyone to accomplish anything. On the seniority list, he's 88th out of 100. You try getting much accomplished when you're the most junior member of the Foreign Relations Committee in the Senate. Good luck, dolo.
That's like saying the only thin that distinguishes me from you is I'm not a racist. It may be the most important difference, but it's not the only difference. While Edwards was making a mint as a plaintiffs lawyer, Obama was trying to make the world better for others besides himself and his very fortunate client.
Stop the ignorance,
JRoot
Sensitive?
you are obviously right that hillary has catered more to the center, but, and i think we've had this discussion before, obama is not the gun slinger you suggest or want him to be. not even close. he is calculated and simply not a risk taker. yes, he has been against the war, but you won't hear him give bush an ass-ripping, like Howard Dean or Al Gore.
Obama has also made some criticized decisions, like voting for a border fence, campaigning for Joe Lieberman, voting for class action reform, voting to confirm Condi Rice as secretary of state, and simply not being a progressive democrat.
its easy to say, go look at obama's website for his position on the issues. however, he has been in the senate for a few years now. what legislation has he introduced? i think the answer might be none.
dont get me wrong, i MIGHT vote for Obama over Hillary or any other Dem. but, like a lot of other democrats, i want someone who has balls. Dean has balls. Obama might, but he doesnt right now.
But even still, Obama has a very broad appeal. Plus he accomplished a fair amount of good in the state senate, which accounts for his support in Illinois.
Actually, you still owe me a million dollars. You put yourself out there, I called you on it, and you failed. Paypal me, bitch.
You don't have shit.
2. He doesn't spend time railing against bush in general because thats not his rhetorical style, and thats why people like him; he speaks from the rhetorical center, w/out the irrational condescension liberals so frequently get blamed for. (that said he's been extremely outspoken on the iraq war and bush's foreign policy and has a plan that has that troops coming home in '08 vs. Clinton who hasn't even proposed a date)
3. I'm not expecting dude to have a Kennedy-like voting record but if you look at the voting patterns he's just a bit more conservative than Feingold and is considerably more liberal than clinton, which passes enough of a litmus test for a guy who has to get at least 50% of the vote in the United State of america, the same country responsible for this:
The dude's a junior senator.
People didn't ask where Ross Perot's voting record was.
This all smacks a bit of "well, he's black, but what has he DONE?" If he were white, it would merely be "I like his position."
if we were talking about a margin of like 4 or 5%, I would put it up to Alan Keys, but 20% of Bush republicans voting for a black liberal with a foriegn-sounding name is pretty impressive regardless of opponent.
yea, he is a junior senator running for president. the issue isnt whether he has introduced legislation that has passed, its whether he has introduced legislation...period. i dont want a democrat who is sitting on his hands trying to be quiet and calculated. that is basically why you are critical of HIllary, right? the truth is that while she throws the republicans a bone once in a while, at least she is right in the mix, taking positions and making decisions.
his voting record is relevant but not that important. how many signficant legislative votes have their been? the fact that he overwhelmingly votes left doesn't tell me everything i need to know about him as a candidate.
the election is almost 2 years away. Obama might shine during his run or he might come off looking like a chump. its too early to tell. its also wayyy too early to be cheerleading for him.