People think withdrawing funding is a good idea? Really?
So our troops get LESS body armor? FEWER weapons?
I'm all for ending the war, but you don't do it by bleeding the army dry.
Then again, I believe Robert has said that anyone in the army is an agent of the devil or some such... I guarantee you he will not say this to a soldier's face.
comeon dude, its not like bush is going to send our troops over there with some slingshots and shields straight out of Braveheart. the point of voting against funding was to stop the war, not under-equip the troops. we elected dems to send the message that we want out. i think obama and clinton should both be ridiculed for enabling it. kucinech!
People think withdrawing funding is a good idea? Really?
So our troops get LESS body armor? FEWER weapons?
I'm all for ending the war, but you don't do it by bleeding the army dry.
Then again, I believe Robert has said that anyone in the army is an agent of the devil or some such... I guarantee you he will not say this to a soldier's face.
comeon dude, its not like bush is going to send our troops over there with some slingshots and shields straight out of Braveheart.
People think withdrawing funding is a good idea? Really?
So our troops get LESS body armor? FEWER weapons?
I'm all for ending the war, but you don't do it by bleeding the army dry.
Then again, I believe Robert has said that anyone in the army is an agent of the devil or some such... I guarantee you he will not say this to a soldier's face.
comeon dude, its not like bush is going to send our troops over there with some slingshots and shields straight out of Braveheart.
that is EXACTLY what he did.
You people do not live in reality.
I have work to do.
Robert, your friend is dead wrong.
Huh? If you're point is that the soldiers have been underequiped in some instances that may be true. But the blame for that should fall squarely on Bush and the Pentagon. None of these Democratic initiatives to cut war funding have passed, after all.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Robert, your friend is dead wrong.
And Jonathan, you have absolutely have no place to say that.
And Jonathan, you have absolutely have no place to say that.
But of course you did anyway.
Eh. You'll have to forgive me. I was prompted by a crazed man who said anyone serving in the army is an agent of the devil.
How in the hell is it crazed to share the same opinion as 75% of the world at large?
You are more than welcome to go live in 75% of the rest of the world.
You know, most times I'm on your side dude. But you're dead wrong on this. There are a lot of good people - many of them I've met, a couple are on this board - that serve. It takes a lot of courage to serve, and people do it for a variety of reasons. You can't stand up for the downtrodden, the salt of the earth, and simultaneously write off as "evil" anyone who's served. And since my favorite grandpa was a General in WWII I take special offense to that comment. Dead wrong I tell you.
Are we talking about a Veteran who may have had bad experiences with the inefficiencies of command structure (particularly relative this Administration's unprecedented level of meddling in the chain), the relationship to private contractors and/or the lack of support in the VA system OR someone who flat out believes that the US Military is just plain evil?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Robert, your friend is dead wrong.
And Jonathan, you have absolutely have no place to say that.
But of course you did anyway.
Eh. You'll have to forgive me. I was prompted by a crazed man who said anyone serving in the army is an agent of the devil.
How in the hell is it crazed to share the same opinion as 75% of the world at large?
You are more than welcome to go live in 75% of the rest of the world.
You know, most times I'm on your side dude. But you're dead wrong on this. There are a lot of good people - many of them I've met, a couple are on this board - that serve. It takes a lot of courage to serve, and people do it for a variety of reasons. You can't stand up for the downtrodden, the salt of the earth, and simultaneously write off as "evil" anyone who's served. And since my favorite grandpa was a General in WWII I take special offense to that comment. Dead wrong I tell you.
Oh, so that's how you are taking my comment.
C'mon now Jonny...I fully understand how many well-meaning in addition to gullible people, get drawn into the US military. Some kids are even born into it and are thus railroaded right into it by their families.
I'm not out to demonize them for falling under the wings of a vulture. I've had my fair share of family members serve as well. But when I see my cousin whose been to Iraq like 5 different times by now, we definitely talk about how fucked up a situation he and his fellow soldiers have been placed in.
It's not so cut and dry that if you "support the troops" that you have to 100% support the decisions of those above them who view soldiers as mere pawns rather than as human beings.
And going back to the first Gulf War, I have always maintained that he best way anyone can "support the troops" is by bringing them home from what we've all come to know as an unjust war.
Also, you have to realize that it is your perspective on the US military comes from you feeling protected by their actions. Most people around the world don't share that priority of protecting American interests and far too many have experienced things like the US military killing their family members and ripping their nations apart.
And truth be told, I feel a whole lot more for people who have unjustifiably lost at the hands of the US military than those who have yet to lose anything and are only playing cheerleader for the US military so that their little plot of Disneyland can continue to prosper ala Manifest Destiny.
And how many times are you going to pull out your "my way or the highway" routine before you just go right ahead and move to the hills of West Virgina so you can marry your niece?
And Jonathan, you have absolutely have no place to say that.
But of course you did anyway.
Eh. You'll have to forgive me. I was prompted by a crazed man who said anyone serving in the army is an agent of the devil.
How in the hell is it crazed to share the same opinion as 75% of the world at large?
You are more than welcome to go live in 75% of the rest of the world.
You know, most times I'm on your side dude. But you're dead wrong on this. There are a lot of good people - many of them I've met, a couple are on this board - that serve. It takes a lot of courage to serve, and people do it for a variety of reasons. You can't stand up for the downtrodden, the salt of the earth, and simultaneously write off as "evil" anyone who's served. And since my favorite grandpa was a General in WWII I take special offense to that comment. Dead wrong I tell you.
Oh, so that's how you are taking my comment.
C'mon now Jonny...I fully understand how many well-meaning in addition to gullible people, get drawn into the US military. Some kids are even born into it and are thus railroaded right into it by their families.
I'm not out to demonize them for falling under the wings of a vulture. I've had my fair share of family members serve as well. But when I see my cousin whose been to Iraq like 5 different times by now, we definitely talk about how fucked up a situation he and his fellow soldiers have been placed in.
It's not so cut and dry that if you "support the troops" that you have to 100% support the decisions of those above them who view soldiers as mere pawns rather than as human beings.
And going back to the first Gulf War, I have always maintained that he best way anyone can "support the troops" is by bringing them home from what we've all come to know as an unjust war.
Also, you have to realize that it is your perspective on the US military comes from you feeling protected by their actions. Most people around the world don't share that priority of protecting American interests and far too many have experienced things like the US military killing their family members and ripping their nations apart.
And truth be told, I feel a whole lot more for people who have unjustifiably lost at the hands of the US military than those who have yet to lose anything and are only playing cheerleader for the US military so that their little plot of Disneyland can continue to prosper ala Manifest Destiny.
And how many times are you going to pull out your "my way or the highway" routine before you just go right ahead and move to the hills of West Virgina so you can marry your niece?
Oh boy. Please do this somewhere else.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Are we talking about a Veteran who may have had bad experiences with the inefficiencies of command structure (particularly relative this Administration's unprecedented level of meddling in the chain), the relationship to private contractors and/or the lack of support in the VA system OR someone who flat out believes that the US Military is just plain evil?
Her service was all on the level...no problems that I've ever heard about. Her husband is a Marine as well...he's in Iraq for about his 3rd or 4th time as we speak.
Apparently, there is quite a substantial movement of US soldiers who have come away from Iraq thinking that, as you mentioned, the actions of the US military are just plain evil.
This is nothing new...for those of us old enough to remember the fall-out from the Vietnam War.
And contrary to what some of y'all want to fool yourselves into thinking, those disgruntled soldiers (who knew of the herion smuggling and the effects of things like agent orange) from Vietnam and the soldiers from the Iraqi wars (who know of the depleted uranium and the effects of things like the drugging of US soldiers) were/are both correct on many, many, many, many levels.
I see where you're coming from, but I am, at the end of the day, an American; and when some shit goes down I know who is going to step up. You and I have differing views on this. I know the leadership at the top is fucked. BUT, I can accept the duality (something you clearly cannot, in any circumstance) that the people at the bottom are there for a different reason. I appreciate those who have decided to serve. Doesn't mean I can't find fault in the mission, or in the behavior of individuals. But there's multiple sides to everything... something you've proved pretty incapable of grasping. I'm certain that I am not the one in this discussion with a "my way or the highway" attitude.
for those of us old enough to remember the fall-out from the Vietnam War.
I remember Jimmy Carter.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Hills of Virginia? My niece?
*backs out of thread slowly*
I see where you're coming from, but I am, at the end of the day, an American; and when some shit goes down I know who is going to step up. You and I have differing views on this. I know the leadership at the top is fucked. BUT, I can accept the duality (something you clearly cannot, in any circumstance) that the people at the bottom are there for a different reason. I appreciate those who have decided to serve. Doesn't mean I can't find fault in the mission, or in the behavior of individuals. But there's multiple sides to everything... something you've proved pretty incapable of grasping. I'm certain that I am not the one in this discussion with a "my way or the highway" attitude.
You don't seem to have any idea what your way is...it's so completely compromised at every turn that in the end, it doesn't mean shit but a bunch of impotent babble.
I know you're a good guy, and I'm not tyring to bring your character into question...but I really don't get where you, nor many people on this board, are coming from with your confused-let's-play-along-with-the-devil's-game approach to political issues.
Don't y'all aver regret your COMPLICITY?
I mean, it's one thing to be young and dumb (like deej) and get the wool pulled over your eyes in the name of youthful optimism. But a lot of you are well into your thirties, you've gained somewhat of a stake in America, and the way y'all talk...I don't see much difference between y'all and the fattest fuck of suburban Americans who can't see anything outside of their own tract neighborhood.
Y'all are obviously putting the protection of your fragile worldviews up as a higher priority than anything resembling a universal conviction.
Who are you going to vote for? Who are you going to vote for?
Fuck that, WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR?
And in this case, if you are "against the war" then BE AGAINST THE DAMNED WAR ALREADY!!!
How can you regret something you did not manufacture, but has grown all around us, left right and center? How do you justify your arrogance to speak to our complicity?
...for those of us old enough to remember the fall-out from the Vietnam War.
wait a second, you couldnt be older than 38. which would make you, what, 4 years old tops when that happened? thats a good memory.
How many of my uncles and dads of my friends and coach's and such growing up served in Vietnam?
A whole fuck load.
yeah, mine too. but i dont claim to remember what it was like vicariously.
and since you didnt answer im going to assume you are younger than 38 and therefore dont remember shit, yes?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
You are calling my character into question.
I have voted with my ballot, my wallet, I have marched, I have "spoken truth to power". I own my life and I can do with it what I feel.
I have not compromised at all; in fact, I have taken my life, my income, my work, and my capital and put it where my mouth is.
I have a different opinion - shit, a different LIFE - than you.
I do not believe de-funding the war is going to help anyone in it - not the Americans, not the Iraqis, nobody - just blowhards like you.
You judge people by their talk - that's fine. I judge them by actions. You talk a lot.
You started a capaitalist business that ultimately benefits you. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
You say your against the war, but disagree with pulling funding as a means of ending that war. I say I'm agaainst the war and agree with anything that will keep one more bullet from flying.
You vote for fully compromised candidates. I don't.
You walk. I stroll.
Yep, we're very different...something we CAN agree on.
You started a capaitalist business that ultimately benefits you. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
I shudder at the thought that you are in any responsible for the education of the youths.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Don't y'all aver regret your COMPLICITY?
Do you ever regret your self-righteousness?
How can you regret something you did not manufacture, but has grown all around us, left right and center? How do you justify your arrogance to speak to our complicity?
Why is it always someone else's fault that you benefit from the evils of the US government?
I mean, so do I...and my aim here isn't to look down on anyone for what I see as falling short. Y'all in whatever ways are my peers and I kinda expect y'all to be at least somehwere in the same ballpark as me and people I know and/or know of who simply refuse to tie our lifeboats to a sinking ship.
DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM WHAT YOU YOURSELF (AT LEAST ON ONE HAND WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT FOR YOU) RECOGNIZES AS BULLSHIT OR YOU TOO ARE BULLSHIT!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
You started a capaitalist business that ultimately benefits you. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
I shudder at the thought that you are in any responsible for the education of the youths.
AMERICA LEADS THE WORLD IN SHUDDERS!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
...for those of us old enough to remember the fall-out from the Vietnam War.
wait a second, you couldnt be older than 38. which would make you, what, 4 years old tops when that happened? thats a good memory.
How many of my uncles and dads of my friends and coach's and such growing up served in Vietnam?
A whole fuck load.
yeah, mine too. but i dont claim to remember what it was like vicariously.
and since you didnt answer im going to assume you are younger than 38 and therefore dont remember shit, yes?
Yes, instead we should pretend that we know nothing so then we can do nothing.
You started a capaitalist business that ultimately benefits you. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
I shudder at the thought that you are in any responsible for the education of the youths.
i highly doubt he "started" a non-profit foundation. if anything he might have "helped" but to start a non-profit organization, never mind a foundation, it requires a lot of time and work. and that would take away time from chasing flying saucers and shit.
. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
I'm deadly serious....does this include Chemtrails or any other of your litany of conspiracy theories??
Comments
comeon dude, its not like bush is going to send our troops over there with some slingshots and shields straight out of Braveheart. the point of voting against funding was to stop the war, not under-equip the troops. we elected dems to send the message that we want out. i think obama and clinton should both be ridiculed for enabling it. kucinech!
that is EXACTLY what he did.
You people do not live in reality.
I have work to do.
Robert, your friend is dead wrong.
Huh? If you're point is that the soldiers have been underequiped in some instances that may be true. But the blame for that should fall squarely on Bush and the Pentagon. None of these Democratic initiatives to cut war funding have passed, after all.
And Jonathan, you have absolutely have no place to say that.
But of course you did anyway.
Eh. You'll have to forgive me. I was prompted by a crazed man who said anyone serving in the army is an agent of the devil.
How in the hell is it crazed to share the same opinion as 75% of the world at large?
Its funny when you make stuff up.
75% LOL.
You are more than welcome to go live in 75% of the rest of the world.
You know, most times I'm on your side dude. But you're dead wrong on this. There are a lot of good people - many of them I've met, a couple are on this board - that serve. It takes a lot of courage to serve, and people do it for a variety of reasons. You can't stand up for the downtrodden, the salt of the earth, and simultaneously write off as "evil" anyone who's served. And since my favorite grandpa was a General in WWII I take special offense to that comment. Dead wrong I tell you.
Oh, so that's how you are taking my comment.
C'mon now Jonny...I fully understand how many well-meaning in addition to gullible people, get drawn into the US military. Some kids are even born into it and are thus railroaded right into it by their families.
I'm not out to demonize them for falling under the wings of a vulture. I've had my fair share of family members serve as well. But when I see my cousin whose been to Iraq like 5 different times by now, we definitely talk about how fucked up a situation he and his fellow soldiers have been placed in.
It's not so cut and dry that if you "support the troops" that you have to 100% support the decisions of those above them who view soldiers as mere pawns rather than as human beings.
And going back to the first Gulf War, I have always maintained that he best way anyone can "support the troops" is by bringing them home from what we've all come to know as an unjust war.
Also, you have to realize that it is your perspective on the US military comes from you feeling protected by their actions. Most people around the world don't share that priority of protecting American interests and far too many have experienced things like the US military killing their family members and ripping their nations apart.
And truth be told, I feel a whole lot more for people who have unjustifiably lost at the hands of the US military than those who have yet to lose anything and are only playing cheerleader for the US military so that their little plot of Disneyland can continue to prosper ala Manifest Destiny.
And how many times are you going to pull out your "my way or the highway" routine before you just go right ahead and move to the hills of West Virgina so you can marry your niece?
actually its kinda sad.
Oh boy. Please do this somewhere else.
Her service was all on the level...no problems that I've ever heard about. Her husband is a Marine as well...he's in Iraq for about his 3rd or 4th time as we speak.
Apparently, there is quite a substantial movement of US soldiers who have come away from Iraq thinking that, as you mentioned, the actions of the US military are just plain evil.
This is nothing new...for those of us old enough to remember the fall-out from the Vietnam War.
And contrary to what some of y'all want to fool yourselves into thinking, those disgruntled soldiers (who knew of the herion smuggling and the effects of things like agent orange) from Vietnam and the soldiers from the Iraqi wars (who know of the depleted uranium and the effects of things like the drugging of US soldiers) were/are both correct on many, many, many, many levels.
*backs out of thread slowly*
I see where you're coming from, but I am, at the end of the day, an American; and when some shit goes down I know who is going to step up. You and I have differing views on this. I know the leadership at the top is fucked. BUT, I can accept the duality (something you clearly cannot, in any circumstance) that the people at the bottom are there for a different reason. I appreciate those who have decided to serve. Doesn't mean I can't find fault in the mission, or in the behavior of individuals. But there's multiple sides to everything... something you've proved pretty incapable of grasping. I'm certain that I am not the one in this discussion with a "my way or the highway" attitude.
I remember Jimmy Carter.
You don't seem to have any idea what your way is...it's so completely compromised at every turn that in the end, it doesn't mean shit but a bunch of impotent babble.
I know you're a good guy, and I'm not tyring to bring your character into question...but I really don't get where you, nor many people on this board, are coming from with your confused-let's-play-along-with-the-devil's-game approach to political issues.
Don't y'all aver regret your COMPLICITY?
I mean, it's one thing to be young and dumb (like deej) and get the wool pulled over your eyes in the name of youthful optimism. But a lot of you are well into your thirties, you've gained somewhat of a stake in America, and the way y'all talk...I don't see much difference between y'all and the fattest fuck of suburban Americans who can't see anything outside of their own tract neighborhood.
Y'all are obviously putting the protection of your fragile worldviews up as a higher priority than anything resembling a universal conviction.
Who are you going to vote for? Who are you going to vote for?
Fuck that, WHAT DO YOU STAND FOR?
And in this case, if you are "against the war" then BE AGAINST THE DAMNED WAR ALREADY!!!
wait a second, you couldnt be older than 38. which would make you, what, 4 years old tops when that happened? thats a good memory.
How many of my uncles and dads of my friends and coach's and such growing up served in Vietnam?
A whole fuck load.
Can you imagine......
I'm part of a U.S. family...thus I give a shit about the U.S. way more than I do the the rest of the world.
I have voted with my ballot, my wallet, I have marched, I have "spoken truth to power". I own my life and I can do with it what I feel.
I have not compromised at all; in fact, I have taken my life, my income, my work, and my capital and put it where my mouth is.
I have a different opinion - shit, a different LIFE - than you.
I do not believe de-funding the war is going to help anyone in it - not the Americans, not the Iraqis, nobody - just blowhards like you.
You judge people by their talk - that's fine. I judge them by actions. You talk a lot.
yeah, mine too. but i dont claim to remember what it was like vicariously.
Do you ever regret your self-righteousness?
How can you regret something you did not manufacture, but has grown all around us, left right and center? How do you justify your arrogance to speak to our complicity?
and since you didnt answer im going to assume you are younger than 38 and therefore dont remember shit, yes?
You started a capaitalist business that ultimately benefits you. I started a non-profit foundation that ultimately benefits kids who need and want their educations to be augmented with lessons that their schools aren't giving them.
You say your against the war, but disagree with pulling funding as a means of ending that war. I say I'm agaainst the war and agree with anything that will keep one more bullet from flying.
You vote for fully compromised candidates. I don't.
You walk. I stroll.
Yep, we're very different...something we CAN agree on.
I shudder at the thought that you are in any responsible for the education of the youths.
Why is it always someone else's fault that you benefit from the evils of the US government?
I mean, so do I...and my aim here isn't to look down on anyone for what I see as falling short. Y'all in whatever ways are my peers and I kinda expect y'all to be at least somehwere in the same ballpark as me and people I know and/or know of who simply refuse to tie our lifeboats to a sinking ship.
DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM WHAT YOU YOURSELF (AT LEAST ON ONE HAND WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT FOR YOU) RECOGNIZES AS BULLSHIT OR YOU TOO ARE BULLSHIT!
AMERICA LEADS THE WORLD IN SHUDDERS!
Yes, instead we should pretend that we know nothing so then we can do nothing.
HOW CONVENIENT!
i highly doubt he "started" a non-profit foundation. if anything he might have "helped" but to start a non-profit organization, never mind a foundation, it requires a lot of time and work. and that would take away time from chasing flying saucers and shit.
I'm deadly serious....does this include Chemtrails or any other of your litany of conspiracy theories??