o-dub on coke rap

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  • jamesjames chicago 1,863 Posts
    I have nothing constructive to add, but would like to say that Oliver's Personal Beef Space sounds like a very ill-conceived and unappetizing franchise restaurant.

  • roistoroisto 877 Posts
    Here's an off-board response (not mine) to ODub's article...

    I love articles like these, written by out-of-touch music critics who listen to a couple mixtapes and think they know about the hood. It's like they're sayin', "Yes, there's drugs being sold in the hood, but what REALLY pisses me off is when people from the hood point it out!! What gives these former drug dealers the right to point out reality, like they're all better than me? Fuck them."

    It makes no sense. Art imitates life, not the other way around. If "coke rap" or "D-boy rap" is the new trend, then maybe there's a bigger trend goin' on in the streets that influence these rappers. Where I live at, Jeezy is everyone's favorite rapper. But, it's not because they wanna be like him............it's because they ARE like him. He raps about what they live through everyday. Crack is being sold. Crack is being used. Money is being made.

    It looks like your special friend did not bother to read Oliver's article before forming his/her opinion.

  • SwayzeSwayze 14,705 Posts
    Remember when crack was supposed to be "bad"?

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts


    Is "intent that the album not sell" or "intentional moves to make less money" your standard for labelling an album "noncommercial"? If so, then there have been virtually no noncommercial albums in the history of rap.

    It's beyond me how anybody could hear this album and think that their primary goal--the one to which they subordinated artistic considerations--was selling records. I think that they made the album that they were determined to make with full awareness that they were not crafting a chart topper.

    you are missing the point. the clipse are niche rappers. if they could sell like 50 cent and put out an album full of party anthems, they would. what do you base their artistic integrity on? and if we assume they had the ability to craft a chart topping album, what is the artistry that they are protecting by not doing so? they are rapping about selling drugs, but what is the message? if anything, it is intentionally cryptic.

    No, you are. Clipse are not inherently a niche act. They're proven platinum-plus rappers with arguably the most successful production duo in rap behind them.

    They chose to make a weird record with limited commercial appeal. I don't know how much simpler I can make it--but I know I'm not going to continue this until I see some indication that you've actually listened to the album.

    And if you do decide to resume this after listening to the album, please decide whether you want to argue about commercial considerations or about "messsages," because they are not at all the same thing.



  • Is "intent that the album not sell" or "intentional moves to make less money" your standard for labelling an album "noncommercial"? If so, then there have been virtually no noncommercial albums in the history of rap.

    It's beyond me how anybody could hear this album and think that their primary goal--the one to which they subordinated artistic considerations--was selling records. I think that they made the album that they were determined to make with full awareness that they were not crafting a chart topper.

    you are missing the point. the clipse are niche rappers. if they could sell like 50 cent and put out an album full of party anthems, they would. what do you base their artistic integrity on? and if we assume they had the ability to craft a chart topping album, what is the artistry that they are protecting by not doing so? they are rapping about selling drugs, but what is the message? if anything, it is intentionally cryptic.

    No, you are. Clipse are not inherently a niche act. They're proven platinum-plus rappers with arguably the most successful production duo in rap behind them.

    They chose to make a weird record with limited commercial appeal.

    why? for the integrity of the crack game? did they sell drugs for the love of the art as well. there is no debate that the clipse are good at what they do. however, just because i can draw an army guy better than anyone in the world, doesnt make me pablo picasso. they are stuck as niche rappers because they will never sell like 50 or even TI. the commercial appeal is just not there, even if they decided to make strictly party raps. so they are sticking to what they are good at and this "non-commercial" album was still their best effort to make money. this isn't fucking bitches brew, if anything is unique about this album, its the neptunes production...and yes, i've listened to it. by the way, professional wrestling is not real and the girls at Scores only talk to you so you will tip them more.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    fuck you guys

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts


    Is "intent that the album not sell" or "intentional moves to make less money" your standard for labelling an album "noncommercial"? If so, then there have been virtually no noncommercial albums in the history of rap.

    It's beyond me how anybody could hear this album and think that their primary goal--the one to which they subordinated artistic considerations--was selling records. I think that they made the album that they were determined to make with full awareness that they were not crafting a chart topper.

    you are missing the point. the clipse are niche rappers. if they could sell like 50 cent and put out an album full of party anthems, they would. what do you base their artistic integrity on? and if we assume they had the ability to craft a chart topping album, what is the artistry that they are protecting by not doing so? they are rapping about selling drugs, but what is the message? if anything, it is intentionally cryptic.

    No, you are. Clipse are not inherently a niche act. They're proven platinum-plus rappers with arguably the most successful production duo in rap behind them.

    They chose to make a weird record with limited commercial appeal.

    why? for the integrity of the crack game? did they sell drugs for the love of the art as well. there is no debate that the clipse are good at what they do. however, just because i can draw an army guy better than anyone in the world, doesnt make me pablo picasso. they are stuck as niche rappers because they will never sell like 50 or even TI. the commercial appeal is just not there, even if they decided to make strictly party raps. so they are sticking to what they are good at and this "non-commercial" album was still their best effort to make money. this isn't fucking bitches brew, if anything is unique about this album, its the neptunes production...and yes, i've listened to it. by the way, professional wrestling is not real and the girls at Scores only talk to you so you will tip them more.

    I have no idea what you're going on about.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    keithvanhorn have you ever listened to lord willing?

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    fuck you guys

    best post in this thread!

  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    So when did the crack rap fad start if not 2002?

  • deejdeej 5,125 Posts
    So when did the crack rap fad start if not 2002?
    Results 1 - 10 of about 26,000 from www.pitchforkmedia.com for clipse. (0.29 seconds)

  • ReynaldoReynaldo 6,054 Posts
    So when did the crack rap fad start if not 2002?
    Results 1 - 10 of about 26,000 from
    www.pitchforkmedia.com for clipse. (0.29 seconds)
    Crack rap has not yet begun to bubble?

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,853 Posts
    Damn, if it was up Archaic. Nobody would be allowed to listen to [Insert stupid] "Crack Rap" [term here] if they never lived in that environment. This is just another attemp of him trying to show how he's been down since day one.

    It must really get his panties in a twist when people all over the world write about the history of hip hop. Cause you just know there were so many people there at the birth of it...

    Dude, you should be fucking ecstatic that anyone out there is writing about this shit so you can once again find meaning in life.

  • Oliver man, you're super-cool peoples, but you're just waaaaaay off base (no pun intended) on this one bro-ham. I don't even know where to begin, and I'm not really trying to get involved in this, but let us examine:

    1. You mention E40's "White Gurl" as if it's the first time dude has made an ode to crack. I really gotta ask man, have you ever listened to his previous albums? I CANNOT even COUNT the number of rhymes my man has written about selling crack.

    2. You say this "fad" started in 2002, as if cats haven't been rapping about crack for over a decade. I mean just off the top this comes to mind:

    "It was once said by a man who couldn't quit
    Dope man please can I have another hit
    The dope man said cluck I don't give a shit
    If your girl kneels down and sucks my dick
    It all happened and the guy tried to choke her
    Nigga livin in cash selling to smokers
    That's the way goes that's the name of the game
    Young brotha gettin over by slangin cane"

    I mean this is one of 37,000 prominent examples of this "fad" that I could have cited that predate 2002 by a long shot. I mean you reference Eazy E and Schooly D and these cats were far from marginal figures in the music, which just reinforces that this is nothing new and not really a recent fad. I mean point to a time in the post-crack era when crack wasn't a popular subject in hip-hop.

    3. "Their songs were cartoonishly outrageous, even by Tony Montana-standards, as they co-opted children's rhymes into coke boasts and dropped punch lines about yayo-smuggling grandmothers." I mean not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't you just as easily be talking about NWA or a Geto Bros song, etc., etc.

    So I guess my question is what is actually new or novel here? What represent a radical departure from any "hardcore" rap of the post-RunDMC era?

    Crack rap is the stupidest fucking term since random rap.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    1. You mention E40's "White Gurl" as if it's the first time dude has made an ode to crack. I really gotta ask man, have you ever listened to his previous albums? I CANNOT even COUNT the number of rhymes my man has written about selling crack.


  • 1. You mention E40's "White Gurl" as if it's the first time dude has made an ode to crack. I really gotta ask man, have you ever listened to his previous albums? I CANNOT even COUNT the number of rhymes my man has written about selling crack.


    I mean, yeah. Dude is not cooking up some pasta or whatever.

  • C-Bo should have been up there in the kitchen too, lol


  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    Zvi,

    This was not a "history of crack rap" essay.

    Yes, one paragraph (my opening) was trying to situate what I consider a new fad within a larger historical context.

    Yes, I'm aware that E-40 appeared on a 1995 album cooking crack. But if you re-read the piece, the reason I name check "White Gurl" was because I was trying to demonstrate RECENT examples of said fad.

    And in describing a "fad," I am not suggesting that rhyming about coke is new. In fact, I believe I actually say this in the piece.

    However - and really, this is where this whole debate stems from - my point is what there's been a shift over the last five years or so that has made rhyming about crack (whether you want to call it crack rap or not) even more popular than it has been in the past, where now what was previously one topic among others has seemingly become more ever-present. Hence, the use of the word "fad."

    Rhyming about crack, in general, is not a "fad" anymore than rhyming about violence is a "fad" or rhyming about sex is a "fad." But to me, I think we've now seen more prominent/popular rappers pushing forward a slanging/dealing persona, specifically around the metaphors of crack (as opposed to drugs in general) than we have in the past.

    This is the heart of the disagreement in this entire thread.

    Of course I know that crack + hip-hop share a long and deep history. And indeed, had this been a history of cocaine in rap rhymes piece, I would have acknowledged - with examples - the far longer trend. But THIS WASN'T A HISTORY OF COCAINE IN HIP-HOP ESSAY.

    Frankly, I'm surprised at the fuss over 4 sentences whereas no one's bothered to discuss the merits of the XXL feature on that actual topic. Nor did I see anyone discuss last year's Village Voice Pazz and Jop issue where there were no less than three essays on crack rap.



    As a small aside, the logic being pushed across here would seem to suggest that there's no such things as "trends" within hip-hop, because one can easily find precedent for almost everything that's out there, no?






    Oliver man, you're super-cool peoples, but you're just waaaaaay off base (no pun intended) on this one bro-ham. I don't even know where to begin, and I'm not really trying to get involved in this, but let us examine:

    1. You mention E40's "White Gurl" as if it's the first time dude has made an ode to crack. I really gotta ask man, have you ever listened to his previous albums? I CANNOT even COUNT the number of rhymes my man has written about selling crack.

    2. You say this "fad" started in 2002, as if cats haven't been rapping about crack for over a decade. I mean just off the top this comes to mind:

    "It was once said by a man who couldn't quit
    Dope man please can I have another hit
    The dope man said cluck I don't give a shit
    If your girl kneels down and sucks my dick
    It all happened and the guy tried to choke her
    Nigga livin in cash selling to smokers
    That's the way goes that's the name of the game
    Young brotha gettin over by slangin cane"

    I mean this is one of 37,000 prominent examples of this "fad" that I could have cited that predate 2002 by a long shot. I mean you reference Eazy E and Schooly D and these cats were far from marginal figures in the music, which just reinforces that this is nothing new and not really a recent fad. I mean point to a time in the post-crack era when crack wasn't a popular subject in hip-hop.

    3. "Their songs were cartoonishly outrageous, even by Tony Montana-standards, as they co-opted children's rhymes into coke boasts and dropped punch lines about yayo-smuggling grandmothers." I mean not to beat a dead horse, but couldn't you just as easily be talking about NWA or a Geto Bros song, etc., etc.

    So I guess my question is what is actually new or novel here? What represent a radical departure from any "hardcore" rap of the post-RunDMC era?

    Crack rap is the stupidest fucking term since random rap.

  • jdeezjdeez 638 Posts

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    Oh man, i read this before i saw it was by oliver. Now i feel bad.

    2002? So this whole fad started with the clipse and a scarface record that flopped?

    I think you guys are finally gonna win out. Rappers are gonna have to stop rapping about crack so much. Not because they realize they are promoting negativity, but because yall made it fuckin corny.


    Moving On....

    Wheres the Meth rap? Thats all I see in the skreets out here!



  • However - and really, this is where this whole debate stems from - my point is what there's been a shift over the last five years or so that has made rhyming about crack (whether you want to call it crack rap or not) even more popular than it has been in the past, where now what was previously one topic among others has seemingly become more ever-present. Hence, the use of the word "fad."

    Rhyming about crack, in general, is not a "fad" anymore than rhyming about violence is a "fad" or rhyming about sex is a "fad." But to me, I think we've now seen more prominent/popular rappers pushing forward a slanging/dealing persona, specifically around the metaphors of crack (as opposed to drugs in general) than we have in the past.










    Doggs, you don't give me enough credit on the reading comprehension tip. Without belaboring this whole thing, I dispute your central point that the rappers who rap about crack are either more "prominent" or "popular" than any of the gazillion dudes rapping about crack from eras past. If anything the opposite is true: has Jeezy sold as many records as NWA? Have the Clipse even sold as many records as C-BO let alone as Master P (he wasn't REALLY talking about selling ice cream)? Did you ever read a Murder Dog or 4080 magazine in the 90s? Do you have any IDEA how many dudes were talking that gangster rap shit? Do you remember, after NWA first dropped, how many NWA clones came out talking about nothing but serving fiends and all that associated slanging talk? I mean Biggie, he talked about crack (Remember his commandments?) on an album that sold more than the three highest selling rap albums of this year put together. I don't have the time to go through this example-by-example, instance-by-instance, but I will say that crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music. That is not you, and I'm a little bit dissapointed that you would address what is really only a phenomenon in the minds of dudes who thought that rap was "icky" as recently as four years ago.

  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music.
    i wish this fit as a location

  • deejdeej 5,125 Posts


    However - and really, this is where this whole debate stems from - my point is what there's been a shift over the last five years or so that has made rhyming about crack (whether you want to call it crack rap or not) even more popular than it has been in the past, where now what was previously one topic among others has seemingly become more ever-present. Hence, the use of the word "fad."

    Rhyming about crack, in general, is not a "fad" anymore than rhyming about violence is a "fad" or rhyming about sex is a "fad." But to me, I think we've now seen more prominent/popular rappers pushing forward a slanging/dealing persona, specifically around the metaphors of crack (as opposed to drugs in general) than we have in the past.










    Doggs, you don't give me enough credit on the reading comprehension tip. Without belaboring this whole thing, I dispute your central point that the rappers who rap about crack are either more "prominent" or "popular" than any of the gazillion dudes rapping about crack from eras past. If anything the opposite is true: has Jeezy sold as many records as NWA? Have the Clipse even sold as many records as C-BO let alone as Master P (he wasn't REALLY talking about selling ice cream)? Did you ever read a Murder Dog or 4080 magazine in the 90s? Do you have any IDEA how many dudes were talking that gangster rap shit? Do you remember, after NWA first dropped, how many NWA clones came out talking about nothing but serving fiends and all that associated slanging talk? I mean Biggie, he talked about crack (Remember his commandments?) on an album that sold more than the three highest selling rap albums of this year put together. I don't have the time to go through this example-by-example, instance-by-instance, but I will say that crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music. That is not you, and I'm a little bit dissapointed that you would address what is really only a phenomenon in the minds of dudes who thought that rap was "icky" as recently as four years ago.

    despite not knowing how to use the quote button and doing the weird stalker thing w/ a picture of me, this is on point.

  • a phenomenon in the minds of dudes who thought that rap was "icky" as recently as four years ago.

    Damn, I love that sentence.


    we can now put this thread to bed and argue for another 10 pages about something else.

  • mannybolonemannybolone 15,030 Posts
    Zvi,

    I'm not trying to belabor this point either and I respect the points you're trying to make here.

    But to me, it FEELS different. And maybe I should spend my next column on trying to get at the source of said feeling (kidding). And no, it's not because Pitchfork or bloggers in general have jumped on that train. It has to do with the Snowman logo tees popping up. It has to do with Juelz diagramming crack cooking in his CD liner notes. It has to do with Jay-Z insistence that even as he's kicking with Danika and Dale, that he used to stack bricks BITD. It has to do with the Clipse being, well, the Clipse. It has to do with Jeezy and T.I.'s success. It has to do with DJ 31 Degreez putting out his "Snow Patrol" mix-CD or Juelz + Weezy putting out, "I Can't Feel My Face." It has to do how the same kind of rhymes that used to only be associated with rappers who appeared in Murder Dog are now rhymes being used by rappers who appear in all kinds of mainstream media outlets.

    This feels "new" to me - the volume, the focus, the themes - etc. Not "new" as in "never done before" but at least different in some fashion.

    To use your own example, I don't consider "Dopeman" by NWA to be a similar song, as say, the Clipse's "Ride Around Shining." Your invocation of Biggie is also meaningful here: "10 Crack Commandments" was definitely a precedent but Biggie didn't remake himself into an all-coke, all-the-time rapper.

    Like I said, things just FEEL differently to me and perhaps had I opened my piece by stating this rather than trying to speak in some kind of objective, conventional wisdom voice, people's response would have been different. But at the time, I really didn't think it was going to be so controversial to suggest that the presence of crack within popular music (specifically hip-hop) has increased within the public sphere.



  • However - and really, this is where this whole debate stems from - my point is what there's been a shift over the last five years or so that has made rhyming about crack (whether you want to call it crack rap or not) even more popular than it has been in the past, where now what was previously one topic among others has seemingly become more ever-present. Hence, the use of the word "fad."

    Rhyming about crack, in general, is not a "fad" anymore than rhyming about violence is a "fad" or rhyming about sex is a "fad." But to me, I think we've now seen more prominent/popular rappers pushing forward a slanging/dealing persona, specifically around the metaphors of crack (as opposed to drugs in general) than we have in the past.










    Doggs, you don't give me enough credit on the reading comprehension tip. Without belaboring this whole thing, I dispute your central point that the rappers who rap about crack are either more "prominent" or "popular" than any of the gazillion dudes rapping about crack from eras past. If anything the opposite is true: has Jeezy sold as many records as NWA? Have the Clipse even sold as many records as C-BO let alone as Master P (he wasn't REALLY talking about selling ice cream)? Did you ever read a Murder Dog or 4080 magazine in the 90s? Do you have any IDEA how many dudes were talking that gangster rap shit? Do you remember, after NWA first dropped, how many NWA clones came out talking about nothing but serving fiends and all that associated slanging talk? I mean Biggie, he talked about crack (Remember his commandments?) on an album that sold more than the three highest selling rap albums of this year put together. I don't have the time to go through this example-by-example, instance-by-instance, but I will say that crack rap is a term coined by Pitchfork homos who got into rap when Camron dropped Purple Haze and who don't know shit about rap music. That is not you, and I'm a little bit dissapointed that you would address what is really only a phenomenon in the minds of dudes who thought that rap was "icky" as recently as four years ago.


    Thank you. this thread is done.

  • Danno3000Danno3000 2,846 Posts
    I don't know anything about crack rap, but I've been playing drug runner on my ti-86 for damn near a decade: i know more than you fools could ever hope about the realities of the crack business and I'm not offended by odub's article. In fact, I think it was well written and engaging. I'm going to read it again and happily accept that crack rap became widely popular in the past several years.

    Can someone recommend a good crack rap mix that I can listen to while I buy low and sell high on my ti-86? Dealing lesson #1: It's easier to deal crack when you've got a good soundtrack.

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    I don't know anything about crack rap, but I've been playing drug runner on my ti-86 for damn near a decade: i know more than you fools could ever hope about the realities of the crack business and I'm not offended by odub's article. In fact, I think it was well written and engaging. I'm going to read it again and happily accept that crack rap became widely popular in the past several years.

    Can someone recommend a good crack rap mix that I can listen to while I buy low and sell high on my ti-86? Dealing lesson #1: It's easier to deal crack when you've got a good soundtrack.


    Please stop reffering to crack rap as a genre of music. It is not.

  • Danno3000Danno3000 2,846 Posts
    I don't know anything about crack rap, but I've been playing drug runner on my ti-86 for damn near a decade: i know more than you fools could ever hope about the realities of the crack business and I'm not offended by odub's article. In fact, I think it was well written and engaging. I'm going to read it again and happily accept that crack rap became widely popular in the past several years.

    Can someone recommend a good crack rap mix that I can listen to while I buy low and sell high on my ti-86? Dealing lesson #1: It's easier to deal crack when you've got a good soundtrack.


    Please stop reffering to crack rap as a genre of music. It is not.



    Your opinion means nothing until i see your drug running skillz[/b].

  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    Like I said, things just FEEL differently to me and perhaps had I opened my piece by stating this rather than trying to speak in some kind of objective, conventional wisdom voice, people's response would have been different. But at the time, I really didn't think it was going to be so controversial to suggest that the presence of crack within popular music (specifically hip-hop) has increased within the public sphere.


    Thanks Odub for stirring the pot(unintentionally) and creating dialoge. Thanks Rookie of the Year- Deej (Nutz) for bringin this to light. This has been one of my favorite threads.
    This media term finally came through the Soulstrut membrane and cats pinballed this shit into an informative disussion.
    With all the opinions up in hrr I think we can collectivly come to conclusions on this so called media moniker. 'Cause we all know mo fuckas are gonna jump to the new Jordan's when they come out and not give a fuck about the previous styles.
    Remember Horrorcore. But this is diff. The Crack game has always been hrr and it has "snowballed" into this generations' tattoo.

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