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avant-garde turntablism

Scratch_n_SniffScratch_n_Sniff 353 Posts
edited December 2006 in Strut Central
I'm writing a paper on the relationship between Hip-Hop DJ practice and fine art. I remember that there was an article in Big Daddy Magazine about avant-garde turntablism back in 2003, or something like that. Does anybody here remember what issue that article was in?Thanks,amos(Also, please to reccomend any other articles about hip hop Djing vs. fine art.)(I know about DJ Spooky.)
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  • pjl2000xlpjl2000xl 1,795 Posts
    http://www.redbullartsehcro.com/default.aspx
    would this qualify?
  • BigBBigB 30 Posts
    Otomo Yoshihide
    Christian Marclay
    Martin Tetreault
    Erik M

    dunno about articles, but those are some worthwhile turntable abusers to look up in this vein..
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    I'm writing a paper on the relationship between Hip-Hop DJ practice and fine art. I remember that there was an article in Big Daddy Magazine about avant-garde turntablism back in 2003, or something like that. Does anybody here remember what issue that article was in?

    Are you trying to compare certain DJ/Turntablists to certain visual artists?

    Whew! Ok - Sound like hard working fun.

    Damn I wouldn't know where to start. U could compare the timelines, but that a superstretch. Kool Herc up to now vs.whatever u wanna use as "Fine Arts" starting point.

    So and So is Picasso/Basquiat/Barney/Goya/Goldin/Rauschenberg/Warhol/Hammonds/Dine/Smith/Lichtenstein/Schnabel/Pollack/Magritte/Walker/Lawrence/Skeme/Horn/......
  • pjl2000xlpjl2000xl 1,795 Posts
    if i were trying to make some comparisons i would focus on collage artists. Cut and paste art and borrowing styles/"sampling" share very common ideas and styles between turtablism and art.
  • m_dejeanm_dejean Quadratisch. Praktisch. Gut. 2,946 Posts
    http://www.philipjeck.com/

    There's an article about him in Wax Poetics #9. More on the "fine art" side than the hiphop side, though.
  • batmonbatmon 27,574 Posts
    if i were trying to make some comparisons i would focus on collage artists. Cut and paste art and borrowing styles/"sampling" share very common ideas and styles between turtablism and art.

    True. BUT. Abstraction comes in many forms. I wouldnt limit oneself to Collage artists. What about Photo-Montage,Dada,Ab-Ex,Neo-Geo,POP,Po-Mo,Grafitti....
  • CosmoCosmo 9,768 Posts
    Buncha horseshit to me.
  • pjl2000xlpjl2000xl 1,795 Posts
    if i were trying to make some comparisons i would focus on collage artists. Cut and paste art and borrowing styles/"sampling" share very common ideas and styles between turtablism and art.

    True. BUT. Abstraction comes in many forms. I wouldnt limit oneself to Collage artists. What about Photo-Montage,Dada,Ab-Ex,Neo-Geo,POP,Po-Mo,Grafitti....
    nah thats true man. I agree with you. I was just thinking of how a turntabilist wehn they build there sets take little snippets from all over to make the whole picture. All the cut and paste. But you can take many different ideas and techniques to parallel all different kinds of abstract art.

    and cosmo you need a hug?
  • CosmoCosmo 9,768 Posts
    Nah I need a hug I go holler at my wife for a hug, but she sleeping and I'm drunk.

    All that faux music concrete via turntables shit is for the birds. Fly pelican fly.
  • JoeMojoJoeMojo 720 Posts
    http://www.philipjeck.com/

    There's an article about him in Wax Poetics #9. More on the "fine art" side than the hiphop side, though.

    I saw Jeck with Marina Rosenfeld at Mutek a few years back. I wasn't expecting anything but it was actually pretty good.
  • yoigotbeatsyoigotbeats 1,667 Posts
    Buncha horseshit to me.



    I can't front, but I think a bunch of it is cats who can't rock a crowd, come with flare-type skillz or make beats (that I think are dope), so they call it "avant grande" or "turntablism." But to each his own.....

    That being said, I was the supervisor of the 50 years of electronic music for the Lincoln Center Jazz Fest in 2000 and Christian Marclay wrote something that was bonkers for three turntables. Also during the eve we have sugacuts' crew do the "Flight Of the Bumblebee," a 8 DJ's recreate Riley's "In C" (it was suposedly the first time it ever was performed on turntables live) and the X-men did this thing over classical music. It was a very dope night.

    You should contact John Carluccio (check the spelling) he's the man on that ish.
  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    Just whatever you do don't talk to that crazy "Aliens in space" dude who they interviewed in Scratch. One of a couple people that just needed to get cut from that movie.

    I remember DJ Radar did some turntable-orchestral stuff a few years ago...I wasn't that impressed but if you're doing research it's probably worth a look.
  • spaceghostspaceghost 605 Posts
    john cage's imaginary landscape no. 1 was a piece of music writen for turntables.

    this is probably way off target for your paper, its not hip-hop but it might lead you somewhere.
  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    john cage's imaginary landscape no. 1 was a piece of music writen for turntables.

    this is probably way off target for your paper, its not hip-hop but it might lead you somewhere.

    Forgot about that, yeah John Cage is the man, however the graduate music students who worship him that I had to run sound for last year tend to be morons and do things like playing bicycles.
  • Scratch_n_SniffScratch_n_Sniff 353 Posts
    Thanks for all the great replies so far.

    My interest is in both fine art practices that include turntable techniques, as well as those that include methodologies that relate to Hip Hop DJing. Cinema ideas of collage, and juxtaposition apply as well as Dadaist appropriation and Burrough's style cut-ups. It's only going to be a ten page paper that beings to connect some of these lines.

    I'm less interested the awkward mess that comes out when people try to insert turntablism directly into "high art" like hip hopras, turntable ballets, and DJ Radar scratching with an orchestra. Although some of these things work out to be more interesting than they sound on paper.
  • prof_rockwellprof_rockwell 2,867 Posts
    Just whatever you do don't talk to that crazy "Aliens in space" dude who they interviewed in Scratch. One of a couple people that just needed to get cut from that movie.

    uhhh...you mean this guy?



    FYI - before you speak on something you should know your history. Mixmaster Mike is one of the original Rocksteady/ISP DJs that basically created this whole 'turntablism' genre before it was even called that. And while he is a space cadet, his stuff is not avant-garde. More like avant-hard. And oh yeah, he DJs for this little group called the Beastie Boys. Maybe you've heard of them?

    I remember DJ Radar did some turntable-orchestral stuff a few years ago...I wasn't that impressed but if you're doing research it's probably worth a look.

    Yes, Radar was the first 'turntablist' to use traditional western musical notation to transcribe his scratches. (John Carluccio, A-Trak et. al made up their own notation systems from scratch). He included the sheet music with a 12" he put out in '99 or '00. He also co-composed a concerto for turntable that was most recently performed at Carnegie Hall this last summer.
  • JoeMojoJoeMojo 720 Posts
    I can't front, but I think a bunch of it is cats who can't rock a crowd, come with flare-type skillz or make beats (that I think are dope), so they call it "avant grande" or "turntablism." But to each his own.....

    Somehow I doubt Christian Marclay is too worried about his 'flare-type skillz'.

    But I know what you mean - there's some contemporary hip-hop influenced dudes (DJ Spooky?) who mask mediocrity with manifestos.

    I can get down with some Milan Knizak or Thomas Brinkmann though.
  • yoigotbeatsyoigotbeats 1,667 Posts
    Somehow I doubt Christian Marclay is too worried about his 'flare-type skillz'.

    then he should stick to doing music for Hellraiser movies instead of getting on the wheels at the Knitting Factory and claiming he's
  • DjArcadianDjArcadian 3,630 Posts
    I remember DJ Radar did some turntable-orchestral stuff a few years ago...I wasn't that impressed but if you're doing research it's probably worth a look.

    I think him and Ztrip did a bit in SF a year ago for Future Primitive. It was actually really good. I was surprised. Sadly, it never got released because Future Primitive went belly up immediately afterwards.
  • DjArcadianDjArcadian 3,630 Posts
    Just whatever you do don't talk to that crazy "Aliens in space" dude who they interviewed in Scratch. One of a couple people that just needed to get cut from that movie.

    uhhh...you mean this guy?



    No, there's another nutcase space alien dude in the film who I think he's talking about.
  • spelunkspelunk 3,400 Posts
    Just whatever you do don't talk to that crazy "Aliens in space" dude who they interviewed in Scratch. One of a couple people that just needed to get cut from that movie.

    uhhh...you mean this guy?



    No, there's another nutcase space alien dude in the film who I think he's talking about.

    No, chill man, I'm not knocking MMM, he's one of my favorite DJs along with all of the ISP crew. I'm talking about that other dude in the movie with the long hair who is just absolutley off his rocker and isn't even a DJ. Pretty sure he ran Asphodal records while they were still around. Don't try to call me out on my history unless you know who I'm talking about.

    And as for that Z-Trip and Radar stuff, there is a video of it lurking somewhere, it was a DOPE set. The vid is supposedly going to be on the Z-Trip DVD that will eventually come out.
  • dayday 9,612 Posts


    No, chill man, I'm not knocking MMM, he's one of my favorite DJs along with all of the ISP crew. I'm talking about that other dude in the movie with the long hair who is just absolutley off his rocker and isn't even a DJ. Pretty sure he ran Asphodal records while they were still around. Don't try to call me out on my history unless you know who I'm talking about.


    I thought that's who you meant too and I almost said the same thing. Maybe you should have said "the long haired dude who ran asphodel records (Naut Human)" so fools weren't confused. I didn't even remember that kook when you brought up alien shit in that movie.

    And yo, I can appreciate the art aspect of using turntables in different ways, but I agree with Cosmo.

    All that faux music concrete via turntables shit is for the birds.
  • JoeMojoJoeMojo 720 Posts
    Somehow I doubt Christian Marclay is too worried about his 'flare-type skillz'.

    then he should stick to doing music for Hellraiser movies instead of getting on the wheels at the Knitting Factory and claiming he's

    If he was playing a dance club, sure. But half the acts that play Knitting Factory are kinda anyway...

    With a few exceptions I don't think any of these dudes are claiming to be the future of all music. They're just doing their own thing, and it's occasionally interesting.

    I just saw Walter Kitundu a couple of months ago, he builds harps that use turntables as pickups... that was actually kind of
  • hemolhemol 2,578 Posts
    Let's not forget Kid Koala. And Fog.
  • yoigotbeatsyoigotbeats 1,667 Posts
    I just saw Walter Kitundu a couple of months ago, he builds harps that use turntables as pickups... that was actually kind of

    I'd rather be daydreamin' with Lupe...
  • Scratch_n_SniffScratch_n_Sniff 353 Posts
    I remember DJ Radar did some turntable-orchestral stuff a few years ago...I wasn't that impressed but if you're doing research it's probably worth a look.

    I think him and Ztrip did a bit in SF a year ago for Future Primitive. It was actually really good. I was surprised. Sadly, it never got released because Future Primitive went belly up immediately afterwards.

    The one CD that came out in 2002 or something with Ztrip and Radar live at Future Primitive is a great mix.
  • DJFerrariDJFerrari 2,411 Posts
    I'm talking about that other dude in the movie with the long hair who is just absolutley off his rocker and isn't even a DJ. Pretty sure he ran Asphodal records while they were still around.

    Naut Human... obviously off his rocker with a name like that.
  • bobbydeebobbydee 849 Posts
    I did a peice for my BFA that was comparing jeff koons to lemon jelly - ie appropriating kitsch pop culture elements and repackaging them as fine art. It deals with turntablism briefly, i'll see if I can dig it up.

    Also you may be interested in theTurntable Transcription Method PDF
  • noznoz 3,625 Posts
    is this the thread where i complain about christian marclay's inability to rock the house?

    dude didn't play "doo doo brown" once. in baltimore!
  • voidsvinylvoidsvinyl 6 Posts
    bill laswell & praxis (w/ grandmixer d.st) did a lot of interesting turntablism in the 80's..
    new school avant garde to me is gunkhole (dstyles, mike boo, ricci rucker & dj ace on drums)..
    they do lots of non-head nod ish too...no albums officially out, but tons of sound files and sample records..
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