Man, I can only imagine those propping up Dischord as more influential or having a greater catalog are completely disconnected from rock...
I'm quite connected to rock and won't outright disagree with you, but instead ask you to examine a little closer. Perhaps Dischord only made 7-10 landmark albums, but I think their business model affected every indie label that followed it. They had a huge hand in the shaping of DIY business culture (if not defining), whereas SST came to embody the worst elements of independently owned labels. Dischord has retained 100% of their catalog for over 20 years, while SST has lost Dinosaur Jr, the Descendents, Sonic Youth, etc. Over the next decade that catalog will be stripped until unrecognizable, and Dischord will continue to change the minds and lives of 13 year olds all over the world.
Man, I can only imagine those propping up Dischord as more influential or having a greater catalog are completely disconnected from rock...
I'm quite connected to rock and won't outright disagree with you, but instead ask you to examine a little closer. Perhaps Dischord only made 7-10 landmark albums, but I think their business model affected every indie label that followed it. They had a huge hand in the shaping of DIY business culture (if not defining), whereas SST came to embody the worst elements of independently owned labels. Dischord has retained 100% of their catalog for over 20 years, while SST has lost Dinosaur Jr, the Descendents, Sonic Youth, etc. Over the next decade that catalog will be stripped until unrecognizable, and Dischord will continue to change the minds and lives of 13 year olds all over the world.
At least Dischord paid what royalties they generated, and to my knowledge, no one has accused Ian or the label of ripping them off(which doesn't mean no one has felt that way, but you don't hear folks ripping Ian the way everyone talks about Gregg Ginn). From what I heard, just the royalties SST owes Husker Du amounts to a small fortune.
Doesn't mean the Dischord catalog is any better, just that they ran stuff more honestly.
Man, I can only imagine those propping up Dischord as more influential or having a greater catalog are completely disconnected from rock...
I'm quite connected to rock and won't outright disagree with you, but instead ask you to examine a little closer. Perhaps Dischord only made 7-10 landmark albums, but I think their business model affected every indie label that followed it. They had a huge hand in the shaping of DIY business culture (if not defining), whereas SST came to embody the worst elements of independently owned labels. Dischord has retained 100% of their catalog for over 20 years, while SST has lost Dinosaur Jr, the Descendents, Sonic Youth, etc. Over the next decade that catalog will be stripped until unrecognizable, and Dischord will continue to change the minds and lives of 13 year olds all over the world.
Like I said, business-wise they're not comparable... but the competition was strictly based on music released.
James Brown was an asshole who took everybody's money and credit whenever he could... but who could dispute the strength of his catalog??
experts on everything from 1 week ago until 15 minutes from now
like good music nyc and hoody allen esq?
i wrote that post to shout out a party that sounded interesting. it doesn't talk about who's "more important" or "more influential" (because who cares about that kind of thing? nerds?) in fact, the actual post says that both labels have great songs. but for the sake of this "VS" party, dischord wins
Man, I can only imagine those propping up Dischord as more influential or having a greater catalog are completely disconnected from rock...
I'm quite connected to rock and won't outright disagree with you, but instead ask you to examine a little closer. Perhaps Dischord only made 7-10 landmark albums, but I think their business model affected every indie label that followed it. They had a huge hand in the shaping of DIY business culture (if not defining), whereas SST came to embody the worst elements of independently owned labels. Dischord has retained 100% of their catalog for over 20 years, while SST has lost Dinosaur Jr, the Descendents, Sonic Youth, etc. Over the next decade that catalog will be stripped until unrecognizable, and Dischord will continue to change the minds and lives of 13 year olds all over the world.
Like I said, business-wise they're not comparable... but the competition was strictly based on music released.
James Brown was an asshole who took everybody's money and credit whenever he could... but who could dispute the strength of his catalog??
I still disagree that SST is better than Dischord. Nothing in their catalog moved me nearly as much as some of Dischord's releases.
Also, the Dischord catalog is somewhat of a statement against "rock", so I'm not sure being connected is what they - or the listeners - were ever interested in trying to do.
what is music for girls and wussies? I seem to remember alot of girls and wussies listening to sonic youth and dinosaur jr. in the 80's...........
No offense but I find it shocking that anyone who actually remembers the 80s would rate Dischord over SST
You state above that you were in the DC area, perhaps thats the source of your bias? Because there's no way Dischord was 'more influential in the 80s' like you said, their releases were few back then and most of the bands were pretty unknown outside of the area. Whereas there were plenty of SST releases getting both critical and kid approval nationwide during the Reagan years
only Bad Brains tune I recall ever liking was 'coptic times'.
Are you saying this is the only Bad Brains song you've ever heard? Because I don't see how anyone could pick out "Coptic Times" as standing apart from the rest of the Bad Brains catalog - it's pretty much par for the course.
The whole Dischord/SST argument is kinda pointless.
They both had a few GOAT groups and classic albums, and a nearly equal amount of stinkers.
No offense but I find it shocking that anyone who actually remembers the 80s would rate Dischord over SST
I gotta disagree with this. While Black Frag were one of my favs, Minor Threat basically spread Straight Edge to the masses which lasted far and beyond the band's own life. That's a pretty major effect upon Punk culture. SST got kids drawing little black boxes on their jackets and shirts for Black Flag. Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
all of which suck....
Spoken like somebody who was too young to go to YoT and UC shows, therefore not knowing what they are talking about
i've heard the records,homey.... eh, whattya want? posicore doesn't do it for me.... i'm a negative creep (and i'm stoned...)........
listen, all hardcore post 1986 is basically inferior...
i recognize that the early 90;s shit i grew up was nothing special...do yourself a favor and realize that all the early Victory and Revelation stuff, compared to Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Black Flag, SSD, Circle Jerks, Government Issue, Jerry's Kids, Germs, Big Boys, JFA.....
the only timeless records Dischord ever put out were the GI, 1st Minor Threat, Faith/Void split and Nation of Ulyseses(sp?)...the rest of the catalog is SO limp...all sound the same, no edge, preachy/over sensitive lyrics, not very rock AT ALL.
SST was/is important in so many ways...Greg Ginn and SST started the whole underground touring circuit, put out dozens of classic/timeless records by very important groups that changed the game... the only thing that dischord changed the game on was record distribution and making sure their bands didnt make any money on the road...you should hear the stories a friend of mine, Bobby, who was in a Dischord band called Trusty, has...being stranded in Europe and dischord not letting them charge no more than 3 euros(or whatever monetary unit was used at the time in whichever country) and they werent allowed to sell merchandise (because that was dischord's policy) so they had to spend their own money to go to Europe and starve because "that was the dischord way"...fuck dischord.
SST/Ginn may have been crooked, but ten years from now, folks will still be buying Minutemen, Husker Du, Black Flag, St. Vitus and other groups LPs....no one will be buying Beefeater, Three, or Rites of Spring records.
SST changed MUSIC
Dischord changed the enviornment in which it was created and made sure that new enviornment was unfun and unrock....
Ian McCay and Henry Rollins are both big Mingering Mike fans.
Used to see Guy Picardo at Yes! organic market in Adams Morgan all the time. I would run into Bob Mould at the Safeway on 17th sometimes.
When I saw AMM play in 1995, I sat next to Thurston More and we both fell asleep. (In a good way.) I gave Ian Sevonious a ride home the other day. Sassy. (In a bad way.)
the only timeless records Dischord ever put out were the GI, 1st Minor Threat, Faith/Void split and Nation of Ulyseses(sp?)...the rest of the catalog is SO limp...all sound the same, no edge, preachy/over sensitive lyrics, not very rock AT ALL.
But what about:
and
?
Dischord changed the enviornment in which it was created and made sure that new enviornment was unfun and unrock....
Arguable....the picnics in the middle of the pit were kind of cool, though...
You can't compare the two...Dischord basically documents the DC scene while SST was a major indie in the 80's and were able to cherry pick a lot of the bands people have mentioned (Sonic Youth, Bad Brains, Husker Du). However, SST wins by virtue of the Minutement alone.
yeah i didn't read the fader thing. probably should have. actually probably not, but whatever. wouldn't dream of criticizing your journalistic integrity, nick.
still think the fader m.o. is pretty bent on making sure the readers know the writers are more up on shit than they are. which is not any different than most other music rags. or my daily life. probably why i don't buy magazines. or mirrors.
I saw these guys when they were first starting out and I always thought they were great but I can't say I've pulled this album off the shelves in a while.
Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
all of which suck....
Spoken like somebody who was too young to go to YoT and UC shows, therefore not knowing what they are talking about
i've heard the records,homey.... eh, whattya want? posicore doesn't do it for me.... i'm a negative creep (and i'm stoned...)........
listen, all hardcore post 1986 is basically inferior...
i recognize that the early 90;s shit i grew up was nothing special...do yourself a favor and realize that all the early Victory and Revelation stuff, compared to Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Black Flag, SSD, Circle Jerks, Government Issue, Jerry's Kids, Germs, Big Boys, JFA.....
SUCKED!!!!!
Seriously dude, what planet are you talking from? You cannot hate on early Rev, that stuff owns it's time & place in the history of the genre. Granted, early Victory ain't no thing, but to compare Victory with rev is just silly.
No offense but I find it shocking that anyone who actually remembers the 80s would rate Dischord over SST
I gotta disagree with this. While Black Frag were one of my favs, Minor Threat basically spread Straight Edge to the masses which lasted far and beyond the band's own life. That's a pretty major effect upon Punk culture. SST got kids drawing little black boxes on their jackets and shirts for Black Flag. Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
very true...
both were influencial in the 80's & appealed to different styles of punk...
dischord's early shit is classic, Teen Idles, Dag Nasty (minor threat, decendents, all) , Embrace, SCREAM (dave Grohl), Youth Brigade, FLEX YOUR HEAD COMP, Faith, GI, Rites Of spring (fugazi), Soulside, Void, Shutter To Think, MINOR THREAT...
all of which used to come to LA & play w/ black flag & visa versa best show i ever saw was black flag & scream...
its easy to see more heads thinkin SST did more cuz black flag & bad brains are more known, DC & LA scenes were so different back then you cant really compare, its like comparing LA hip hop to NY hip hop in the late 80's early 90's...
its kind of amusing seeing 20 year olds talkin bout this shit now...
& victory records wasnt an early HC label, rev had shit on lock many years b4, snapcase & all that shit was 3rd generation...
old youth crew bands, like YOT, Beyond, BOLD, JUDGE, GB, SIDE BY SIDE, BREAKDOWN, Warzone, Sick Of It All, Project X, & west coast shit like UC, Insted, No For An Answer, Pushed Aside, Against The Wall, Hard Stance(Inside Out, Rage Against The Machine) & many others all had some sick shit out & dont let the "jock" image fool you tom beyond can def hang w/ old ginn on guitar...
those were the days fenders ball room, gilman street, cbgb's, anthrax club, & many many more glad i was part of the movement, some of my best memories from those days & every collector i knew at that time was def on the hunt for dischord early shit over SST cuz in LA we tripped over black flag records...
& ill take my 1st generation minor threat 45 hand silk screened over any sst release any day... as well as my teen idles test press...
so in all n' all sst & dischord were both important & put punk on the map...
other than minor threat and circus lupus, i'm not listening to too much dischord stuff these days...SST is a different story, always feel like listening to one of their bands.
other than minor threat and circus lupus, i'm not listening to too much dischord stuff these days...SST is a different story, always feel like listening to one of their bands.
other than minor threat and circus lupus, i'm not listening to too much dischord stuff these days...SST is a different story, always feel like listening to one of their bands.
Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
all of which suck....
Spoken like somebody who was too young to go to YoT and UC shows, therefore not knowing what they are talking about
i've heard the records,homey.... eh, whattya want? posicore doesn't do it for me.... i'm a negative creep (and i'm stoned...)........
listen, all hardcore post 1986 is basically inferior...
i recognize that the early 90;s shit i grew up was nothing special...do yourself a favor and realize that all the early Victory and Revelation stuff, compared to Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Black Flag, SSD, Circle Jerks, Government Issue, Jerry's Kids, Germs, Big Boys, JFA.....
SUCKED!!!!!
Seriously dude, what planet are you talking from? You cannot hate on early Rev, that stuff owns it's time & place in the history of the genre. Granted, early Victory ain't no thing, but to compare Victory with rev is just silly.
i find most stuff on Revelation DULL... the only thing i own on Revelation that i half-like is the first Sick of it All EP and i listen to it like once every 3 years... listen, i worked w/ a guy who would play me Judge, Youth of Today, Quicksand, Bold, Side by Side, Shelter, etc all day and i never liked any of it... i don't even like Gorilla Biscuits... when hardcore bands only listen to other hardcore bands, it gets stale fast... and while i like Minor Threat (ALOT), streamlining their sound and adding these jock elements and homoerotic overtones is not my thing... once hardcore became a set element w/ set paremeters (say around 1986), it's kinda over for me... and while i grew up seeing Boston hardcore bands like Sam Black Church and touring bands like Ignite, i don't think either of them are particularly special in the general scheme of things and never put on their records to listen to, wheras i listen to DYS, the Misfits, Cro-Mags, Angry Samoans, Agent Orange, Gang Green, etc etc all the time...
if i had to choose to listen to music from that era (1988), i would pick the Touch and Go and AmRep bands any day of the week... bands like Scratch Acid, Jesus Lizard, Hammerhead, Laughing Hyenas etc, to me, are the succesors of Damaged-era Black Flag or Is this my world-era Jerry's Kids way more than Ray Cappo (PUKE) ever was... they took the aggression and weirdness and chose to explore it, rather than make the same record over and over again...
Comments
I'm quite connected to rock and won't outright disagree with you, but instead ask you to examine a little closer. Perhaps Dischord only made 7-10 landmark albums, but I think their business model affected every indie label that followed it. They had a huge hand in the shaping of DIY business culture (if not defining), whereas SST came to embody the worst elements of independently owned labels. Dischord has retained 100% of their catalog for over 20 years, while SST has lost Dinosaur Jr, the Descendents, Sonic Youth, etc. Over the next decade that catalog will be stripped until unrecognizable, and Dischord will continue to change the minds and lives of 13 year olds all over the world.
At least Dischord paid what royalties they generated, and to my knowledge, no one has accused Ian or the label of ripping them off(which doesn't mean no one has felt that way, but you don't hear folks ripping Ian the way everyone talks about Gregg Ginn). From what I heard, just the royalties SST owes Husker Du amounts to a small fortune.
Doesn't mean the Dischord catalog is any better, just that they ran stuff more honestly.
Like I said, business-wise they're not comparable... but the competition was strictly based on music released.
James Brown was an asshole who took everybody's money and credit whenever he could... but who could dispute the strength of his catalog??
like good music nyc and hoody allen esq?
i wrote that post to shout out a party that sounded interesting. it doesn't talk about who's "more important" or "more influential" (because who cares about that kind of thing? nerds?) in fact, the actual post says that both labels have great songs. but for the sake of this "VS" party, dischord wins
cause they do!
faced!
I still disagree that SST is better than Dischord. Nothing in their catalog moved me nearly as much as some of Dischord's releases.
Also, the Dischord catalog is somewhat of a statement against "rock", so I'm not sure being connected is what they - or the listeners - were ever interested in trying to do.
And that Rites of Spring 45 is un-fuck-withable.
next topic - touch & go vs. sub-pop?
see:
sacred love- bad brains from the "i against i" record... vocals recorded over the phone while HR was in jail.. unfuckwitable...
and the first Saccarhine Trust LP "pagan icons" is way more a statement against "rock" than ANYTHING dischord ever put out...
most of the post hardcore dischord catalog equals music for girls and wussies... sorry...
only Bad Brains tune I recall ever liking was 'coptic times'.
will look into saccarhine trust, sounds interesting.
what is music for girls and wussies? I seem to remember alot of girls and wussies listening to sonic youth and dinosaur jr. in the 80's...........
No offense but I find it shocking that anyone who actually remembers the 80s would rate Dischord over SST
You state above that you were in the DC area, perhaps thats the source of your bias? Because there's no way Dischord was 'more influential in the 80s' like you said, their releases were few back then and most of the bands were pretty unknown outside of the area. Whereas there were plenty of SST releases getting both critical and kid approval nationwide during the Reagan years
Are you saying this is the only Bad Brains song you've
ever heard? Because I don't see how anyone could
pick out "Coptic Times" as standing apart from the rest
of the Bad Brains catalog - it's pretty much par for the course.
The whole Dischord/SST argument is kinda pointless.
They both had a few GOAT groups and classic albums,
and a nearly equal amount of stinkers.
All I can really say on the subject is this:
that's kinda like saying "the only Run DMC song i ever liked was "You Be Illin'"...
I gotta disagree with this. While Black Frag were one of my favs, Minor Threat basically spread Straight Edge to the masses which lasted far and beyond the band's own life. That's a pretty major effect upon Punk culture. SST got kids drawing little black boxes on their jackets and shirts for Black Flag. Minor Threat created a whole Punk sub-movement and genre of bands: Uniform Choice, Youth of Today, etc.
all of which suck....
there are no bands that imitate Black Flag b/c it isn't possible... no jock w/ a shaved head is gonna be able to cop Greg Ginn's guitar style....
Spoken like somebody who was too young to go to YoT and UC shows,
therefore not knowing what they are talking about
i've heard the records,homey.... eh, whattya want? posicore doesn't do it for me.... i'm a negative creep (and i'm stoned...)........
listen, all hardcore post 1986 is basically inferior...
i recognize that the early 90;s shit i grew up was nothing special...do yourself a favor and realize that all the early Victory and Revelation stuff, compared to Bad Brains, Minor Threat, Black Flag, SSD, Circle Jerks, Government Issue, Jerry's Kids, Germs, Big Boys, JFA.....
SUCKED!!!!!
SST was/is important in so many ways...Greg Ginn and SST started the whole underground touring circuit, put out dozens of classic/timeless records by very important groups that changed the game...
the only thing that dischord changed the game on was record distribution and making sure their bands didnt make any money on the road...you should hear the stories a friend of mine, Bobby, who was in a Dischord band called Trusty, has...being stranded in Europe and dischord not letting them charge no more than 3 euros(or whatever monetary unit was used at the time in whichever country) and they werent allowed to sell merchandise (because that was dischord's policy) so they had to spend their own money to go to Europe and starve because "that was the dischord way"...fuck dischord.
SST/Ginn may have been crooked, but ten years from now, folks will still be buying Minutemen, Husker Du, Black Flag, St. Vitus and other groups LPs....no one will be buying Beefeater, Three, or Rites of Spring records.
SST changed MUSIC
Dischord changed the enviornment in which it was created and made sure that new enviornment was unfun and unrock....
Ian McCay and Henry Rollins are both big Mingering Mike fans.
Used to see Guy Picardo at Yes! organic market in Adams Morgan all the time. I would run into Bob Mould at the Safeway on 17th sometimes.
When I saw AMM play in 1995, I sat next to Thurston More and we both fell asleep. (In a good way.) I gave Ian Sevonious a ride home the other day. Sassy. (In a bad way.)
I hate the Fader.
and
?
Arguable....the picnics in the middle of the pit were kind of cool, though...
==========
wouldn't dream of criticizing your journalistic integrity, nick.
still think the fader m.o. is pretty bent on making sure the readers know the writers are more up on shit than they are. which is not any different than most other music rags. or my daily life. probably why i don't buy magazines. or mirrors.
get familiar?
I saw these guys when they were first starting out and I always thought they were great but I can't say I've pulled this album off the shelves in a while.
touch&go for me
Twin/Tone vs. Cargo?
Who cares?
Cargo!
i find most stuff on Revelation DULL... the only thing i own on Revelation that i half-like is the first Sick of it All EP and i listen to it like once every 3 years... listen, i worked w/ a guy who would play me Judge, Youth of Today, Quicksand, Bold, Side by Side, Shelter, etc all day and i never liked any of it... i don't even like Gorilla Biscuits... when hardcore bands only listen to other hardcore bands, it gets stale fast... and while i like Minor Threat (ALOT), streamlining their sound and adding these jock elements and homoerotic overtones is not my thing... once hardcore became a set element w/ set paremeters (say around 1986), it's kinda over for me... and while i grew up seeing Boston hardcore bands like Sam Black Church and touring bands like Ignite, i don't think either of them are particularly special in the general scheme of things and never put on their records to listen to, wheras i listen to DYS, the Misfits, Cro-Mags, Angry Samoans, Agent Orange, Gang Green, etc etc all the time...
if i had to choose to listen to music from that era (1988), i would pick the Touch and Go and AmRep bands any day of the week... bands like Scratch Acid, Jesus Lizard, Hammerhead, Laughing Hyenas etc, to me, are the succesors of Damaged-era Black Flag or Is this my world-era Jerry's Kids way more than Ray Cappo (PUKE) ever was... they took the aggression and weirdness and chose to explore it, rather than make the same record over and over again...