I know a lot of people exploit illegal immigrants. but, when i was working in restaurants, BY AND LARGE, it was not white dudes coming in every day looking to work as a dishwasher. or prep cook. or whatever. And, i imagine it went the same for all the janitorial jobs they went to during their off time.
me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.
However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.
And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?
This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.
Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...
Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.
Cheap labor is only a blessing for the people doing the hiring/profiting.
In fact it is, but people do that to theirselves. I would not say it is fair in any way. But they bring in over half of the money in central America, though wages are low. That's what matters a lot too, except for the situation in the USA.
me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.
However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.
And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?
This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.
Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...
Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.
Cheap labor is only a blessing for the people doing the hiring/profiting.
dont forget about the consumer
That only works in the "trickle down" world, where the lizard people, tooth fairys and unicorns romp freely....
All Im sayin is you know theres something seriously wrong when people leave a beautiful country like Mexico to come to cold n nasty (and usually impersonable) places like IL, NY, etc. to work and live. Somethings got ta give.
no it doesnt. i know youre trying to angle old reagan terminology here, but let's face it, americans want a bargain. soulstrutters want a bargain. aint no one paying full price for shit except the japanese. come on. i mean, take that housing stat for example. contractors will bid on building a home, no? and to "win" a bid, you need to basically lowball mofo's and do it for cheap. you get that contract and then its the contractors responsibility to get it done for that price. in come the day laborers. trickle down or not, when you look for that bargain or deal, youre basically exploiting the economy.
im not saying mofo's wont slap down $200 on a pair of jordans made by some sri lankan 8 year old, but i am saying that this issue of immigration and all that is basically talking around the real issue. capitalism.
me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.
However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.
And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?
This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.
Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...
Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.
"undocumented labor is a blessing, cause it's cheap." Well, that sums up Bush's argument for his policy. Anyone can work for cheap, but what's NOT so easy to do in the USA (or most developed nations) is to LIVE for cheap. When they make that possible I will worry if I am being hypocritical for thinking that Mexico needs to start solving it's OWN poverty crisis before worrying why the US can't just welcome all it's citizens with a guarantee of public education and health care!
me too....but I also think Bush's plan is total bunk.
However, my issue with illegal immigration stems from the fact that the biggest proponent of allowing 'guest workers' and undocumented workers period are the same folks who spent years successfully breaking the back of Union Labor in the US. 'guest Worker' in my eyes in shorthand for 'disposable labor', and it undermines the notion of fair wages for work delivered for existing citizens and those immigrating through proper channels. The notion that there are 'jobs that Americans won't do' is ridiculous. Pay a fairer wage, a livable wage on shitty jobs, people will do them. Allow the corporate interests to make the decisions on this, and our borders will remain porous and insecure and they will be able to exploit undocumented and ilegal residents to their hearts content, which just ratchets up the tension between existing communities as well.
And say you grant those here illegally immunity. What message does that send to the governments in Mexico and Central America? keep screwing over your poorest folks and We'll cover all the costs? And all this with an administration who thinks we can just keep sinking money into shit without raising taxes? And how do people here illegally contribute taxes? Why do we even have immigration laws if the policy is basically not to enforce them?
This issue gets misconstrued by Progressives and Conservatives alike, and is oversimplified by the politicians in the House and Senate. There will be a lot of talk, and virtually no reform let alone resolution.
Cosign. There was a story on the CBS network news last night that quoted figures that something like 25% of the workers that install insulation in new houses are undocumented, as are 29% of the sheetrockers in the same industry. Some big companies are making a mint on undocumented day labor...
Undocumented labour is a blessing, cause it's cheap. In fact it's hypocrite to suggest the opposite or to keep poor folks out. If someone can't work for cheap they will dissapear by theirselves. Probably the only way to compete with China. I don't really care, but in fact it's likely for something to happen in USA in order to save that country. If I would live there, I would be worried I guess. Sorry to be negative about it.
Cheap labor is only a blessing for the people doing the hiring/profiting.
dont forget about the consumer
That only works in the "trickle down" world, where the lizard people, tooth fairys and unicorns romp freely....
In very few cases are reduction in manufacturing or labor costs passed down to the consumer, they are most often added to the bottom line profits of the company.
fair enough. which still begs the question. maybe we should really be questioning capitalism and if it is a sustainable ideology rather than sidestepping the issue and bringing up immigration.
fair enough. which still begs the question. maybe we should really be questioning capitalism and if it is a sustainable ideology rather than sidestepping the issue and bringing up immigration.
What's there to question? Money has it's own life now, and if someone decides to have nothing to do with it, there are millions of others who will step in.
fair enough. which still begs the question. maybe we should really be questioning capitalism and if it is a sustainable ideology rather than sidestepping the issue and bringing up immigration.
Th real issue - at least in the current climate - is will we accept an "anything goes" ethos as part of capitalism? The people that are supposed to be representing us are constantly signing off on new laws that make it easier and easier for big business to do basically whatever they want (that old Reagan-era saw about how "the business of America is business"). At what point do the people that have had their jobs moved offshore, their pensions looted, stand up and hold big business accountable? Or, do we just sit back and watch the system crumble?
money is contigent on the majority of humans believing that it has some sort of value.
It makes you more powerful. In fact people are like apes that would steal a banana and leave someone hungry. That's where capitalism gets into the human mind. A long time to go for changing the general state of mind.
At what point can you no longer allow new citizens into a country and how do you decide when that time is?? I have to believe that at some point the economy will suffer, the level of education and health care, that while not perfect now, will get even worse if 10, 20, 100 million more people are entered into the mix.
So how does a Government of any country decide when immigration has reached the limits and how do you prevent it from happening, especially if it's being done illegally??
In all likelihood, w/o immigration, the overall population would fall, spelling a shortfall in future pensions/etc. R*ch, I know you've mentioned that you've got a daughter; any other children? 'Cause 2 is the minimum to maintain a stable population level, anything below means your population is shrinking/dying; given that pensions are contingent on future generations (i.e. the current pensions being doled out right now are paid for by the current work force), it could mean some dire times ahead... As I've mentioned before, countries in Europe are going to face a looming pension crisis sooner rather than later: namely Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany (despite the waves of Greek and Turkish immigrants in the '60s brought over primarily for heavy labor)... If it weren't for immigrants moving into North America, both Canada and the U.S. would experience the same phenomenon - and in Japan, which is strongly insular and xenophobic (and strongly resists immigration of any sort), the population is slated to go from around 125 million (which it is @ present) to around 95 million w/in the next 20 to 25 years, add to that that Japan is the world's oldest population overall, and you can see why companies like Honda are experimenting heavily w/ voice recognition robots (to take care of the elderly) to assume jobs/duties that would be manned by a population that just won't be there in the future...
As in the thread about France, I could expand more, but I'll leave it @ that for now...
This law and everyone passed before and after is never going to stop illegal immigration. There have been amnesty laws passed before, there have been guest worker programs in the past (see Bracero program from 1942-1965). Immigration actually goes up and down. It is not a constant. Situations in other countries affect the flow of immigrants world wide.
As for the question of a tipping point, I'm not sure there is one. In rich countries like America, the richer you are the less children you have. America has seen a steady decline in child births amongst the middle class and people have children later in life. Some countries like Germany actually have a negative population growth because of this. Immigration, both legal and illegal, isn't that high each year anyway. I think I read that there might be 10 million illegal immigrants in America TOTAL. That's not 10 million coming to America each year. Immigrnts work in many valuable jobs here from the lowly migrant farm worker to the high-tech computer engineer on those special Visas for hi-tech workers they have.
On the question of whether they add or take away from America the studies I've read say the following. Immigrants add to the overall economy of America. Not only do they work in many sectors of the economy, but they pay taxes as well. If they are getting paychecks, and many big businesses with large workforces are paying everyone with paychecks, they have state and federal taxes taken out of each one otherwise the business will run into trouble with the IRS. Immmigrants whether legal or illegal also pay sales taxes which help out cities and counties. (Getting paid under the table cash is obviously another issue.) Immigrants have also added to American culture. One need only look at food. Where immigrants take away from America is the individual states that receive most immigrants, those being CA, TX, NY, FL, IL. In those states immigrants are taking away from the states' economies in social services like medical aid.
Different immigrant groups also have different trends in work, etc. that affect states in different ways. Mexicans for example, tend to have married parents, more children, work more than average Americans, mostly work in the private rather than public sector, and hardly ever go on welfare. Puerto Ricans on the other hand, have high birth rates, higher unemployment, more single mothers and higher welfare rates.
And if you want to talk about illegals, Canadians are one of the top ten illegal immigrant groups to America. During the 1990s at least, they were top 5. I don't see anyone complaining about them.
I heard a talk radio host tonight claim that the Catholic Church, who have lost alot of their "customers" over the last few years because of the Priest/Child Molestation scandals, are encouraging illegal immigration from South America to keep their churches full.
Doesn't make much sense to me as they certainly have churches all over the world??
I was actually mistaken. You CAN cut down on illegal immigration. Enforce the existing laws which would check on companies and fine them for employing illegals. There is a database which companies can check which lists legal immigrants with green cars/visas etc against their employee rosters. These laws never get enforced however. There was a report on NPR this morning that said only 3 companies in 2005 got fined for employing illegals. I guess they'd rather build fences and try to catch smugglers rather than crack down on American companies.
Speaking as an American living outside the U.S., this shit is all a distraction, this is a page out of British politiics where immigration is always the 'hotbutton issue'. On one level it is a significant issue- How welcome are Mexican Americans, what part will they play in the America of the future, what kind of protection will they be given under law? On another level its a 'controversial' issue,, the politicians like to act like its contentious, but would much rather talk about this than Iraq, Iran, corruption ala Abramoff or the president's illegal wiretapping. Not to say there aren't some important points being raised here, but given the state of the world, and all the decisions the U.S. makes that affect the rest of the world, it's a sham.
Comments
In fact it is, but people do that to theirselves. I would not say it is fair in any way.
But they bring in over half of the money in central America, though wages are low. That's what matters a lot too, except for the situation in the USA.
That only works in the "trickle down" world, where the lizard people, tooth fairys and unicorns romp freely....
im not saying mofo's wont slap down $200 on a pair of jordans made by some sri lankan 8 year old, but i am saying that this issue of immigration and all that is basically talking around the real issue. capitalism.
"undocumented labor is a blessing, cause it's cheap." Well, that sums up Bush's argument for his policy. Anyone can work for cheap, but what's NOT so easy to do in the USA (or most developed nations) is to LIVE for cheap. When they make that possible I will worry if I am being hypocritical for thinking that Mexico needs to start solving it's OWN poverty crisis before worrying why the US can't just welcome all it's citizens with a guarantee of public education and health care!
In very few cases are reduction in manufacturing or labor costs passed down to the consumer, they are most often added to the bottom line profits of the company.
What's there to question? Money has it's own life now, and if someone decides to have nothing to do with it, there are millions of others who will step in.
Th real issue - at least in the current climate - is will we accept an "anything goes" ethos as part of capitalism? The people that are supposed to be representing us are constantly signing off on new laws that make it easier and easier for big business to do basically whatever they want (that old Reagan-era saw about how "the business of America is business").
At what point do the people that have had their jobs moved offshore, their pensions looted, stand up and hold big business accountable? Or, do we just sit back and watch the system crumble?
It makes you more powerful.
In fact people are like apes that would steal a banana and leave someone hungry. That's where capitalism gets into the human mind.
A long time to go for changing the general state of mind.
Alba and her replilian cohorts will save us all.
jesus am i drunk tonight.
weeeeeeeee!
Except I never get tickets. EVER. I get pulled over, but I never get tickets. Its so awesome being famous.
In all likelihood, w/o immigration, the overall population would fall, spelling a shortfall in future pensions/etc. R*ch, I know you've mentioned that you've got a daughter; any other children? 'Cause 2 is the minimum to maintain a stable population level, anything below means your population is shrinking/dying; given that pensions are contingent on future generations (i.e. the current pensions being doled out right now are paid for by the current work force), it could mean some dire times ahead... As I've mentioned before, countries in Europe are going to face a looming pension crisis sooner rather than later: namely Italy, Spain, Greece, Germany (despite the waves of Greek and Turkish immigrants in the '60s brought over primarily for heavy labor)... If it weren't for immigrants moving into North America, both Canada and the U.S. would experience the same phenomenon - and in Japan, which is strongly insular and xenophobic (and strongly resists immigration of any sort), the population is slated to go from around 125 million (which it is @ present) to around 95 million w/in the next 20 to 25 years, add to that that Japan is the world's oldest population overall, and you can see why companies like Honda are experimenting heavily w/ voice recognition robots (to take care of the elderly) to assume jobs/duties that would be manned by a population that just won't be there in the future...
As in the thread about France, I could expand more, but I'll leave it @ that for now...
if this picture doesn't look normal, it may be time to stop drinking...
you evil motherfucker.
As for the question of a tipping point, I'm not sure there is one. In rich countries like America, the richer you are the less children you have. America has seen a steady decline in child births amongst the middle class and people have children later in life. Some countries like Germany actually have a negative population growth because of this. Immigration, both legal and illegal, isn't that high each year anyway. I think I read that there might be 10 million illegal immigrants in America TOTAL. That's not 10 million coming to America each year. Immigrnts work in many valuable jobs here from the lowly migrant farm worker to the high-tech computer engineer on those special Visas for hi-tech workers they have.
On the question of whether they add or take away from America the studies I've read say the following. Immigrants add to the overall economy of America. Not only do they work in many sectors of the economy, but they pay taxes as well. If they are getting paychecks, and many big businesses with large workforces are paying everyone with paychecks, they have state and federal taxes taken out of each one otherwise the business will run into trouble with the IRS. Immmigrants whether legal or illegal also pay sales taxes which help out cities and counties. (Getting paid under the table cash is obviously another issue.) Immigrants have also added to American culture. One need only look at food. Where immigrants take away from America is the individual states that receive most immigrants, those being CA, TX, NY, FL, IL. In those states immigrants are taking away from the states' economies in social services like medical aid.
Different immigrant groups also have different trends in work, etc. that affect states in different ways. Mexicans for example, tend to have married parents, more children, work more than average Americans, mostly work in the private rather than public sector, and hardly ever go on welfare. Puerto Ricans on the other hand, have high birth rates, higher unemployment, more single mothers and higher welfare rates.
And if you want to talk about illegals, Canadians are one of the top ten illegal immigrant groups to America. During the 1990s at least, they were top 5. I don't see anyone complaining about them.
Doesn't make much sense to me as they certainly have churches all over the world??
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3758105.html
http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/local_news/article/0%2C%2CTCP_16736_4577539%2C00.html
They also want to refuse any illegal alien free medical care and public schooling.
I doubt we'll see any of this happen.
Speaking as an American living outside the U.S., this shit is all a distraction, this is a page out of British politiics where immigration is always the 'hotbutton issue'. On one level it is a significant issue- How welcome are Mexican Americans, what part will they play in the America of the future, what kind of protection will they be given under law? On another level its a 'controversial' issue,, the politicians like to act like its contentious, but would much rather talk about this than Iraq, Iran, corruption ala Abramoff or the president's illegal wiretapping. Not to say there aren't some important points being raised here, but given the state of the world, and all the decisions the U.S. makes that affect the rest of the world, it's a sham.